[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

rich...@karmannghia.org writes:

 > (Maybe! How do we know they won't abandon Python3 like they did
 > Python2?

They supported Python 2 for most of a decade after the release of
Python 3.  Not only does that bode well for longterm Python 3 support,
there also will not be another break like Python 3 vs. Python 2.
Nobody has the stamina to accept that much abuse again.  There once
was talk of going from Python 3.9 to Python 4.0, but that would have
been just Python 3.10 by another name, just as backward compatible.

 > I mean, whatever happened to Python1?!

It gracefully evolved into Python 2.  There were a couple of small
compatibility breaks (introduction of true Boolean values was one, I
think), which justified a few years with both Python 1 (with the
Unicode type bolted on in v1.6) and Python 2 (with the compatibility
breaks and a number of new syntaxes, and a more thorough integration
of Unicode) being supported and distributed at the same time.

 > Why isn't it just "Python"?)

To let people know that there are definitely backward
incompatibilities.

Steve
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 7/18/2023 6:39 AM, rich...@karmannghia.org wrote:

Why isn't it just "Python"?


Werlll...

https://www.pluralsight.com/resources/blog/cloud/the-story-of-python-2-and-3
"Python 3 exists because Guido saw areas of the language that needed some 
improvements and the changes couldn’t be made with backward compatibility in 
mind."

(This wisdom of that has been hotly debated.)

Mind that there is -quite- a lot of p2 code out there that will never be 
changed. There are also a lot of hard feelings about the incompatibilities, 
and I know several companies that elected to rewrite into Rust or Go (or 
other languages) instead of to p3.


Having said that, IMHO it's not really on-topic for this list.

Later,

z!
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Russell Clemings]

Interesting guy, if this is him:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/08/man-who-built-isp-instead-of-paying-comcast-50k-expands-to-hundreds-of-homes/

On Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 6:40 AM  wrote:

>
> On Mon, 17 Jul 2023, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> >>
> >>> Python 2 and Python 3 are enough different to effectively be
> >>> different languages.
> >>
> >> BTW, there is a python2 to 3 converter,
> >
> > There's also this project:
> >
> > https://github.com/jaredmauch/mailman2-python3/
> >
> >
> > -Jim P.
> >
>
> Now that Jared Mauch (I presume), is a man with a good plan! ;-)
>
>
> (Maybe! How do we know they won't abandon Python3 like they did Python2? I
> mean, whatever happened to Python1?! Why isn't it just "Python"?)
>
> Thanks, Jim, for pointing this out!
>
> R
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Richard]

On Mon, 17 Jul 2023, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:



Python 2 and Python 3 are enough different to effectively be
different languages.


BTW, there is a python2 to 3 converter, 


There's also this project:

https://github.com/jaredmauch/mailman2-python3/


-Jim P.



Now that Jared Mauch (I presume), is a man with a good plan! ;-)


(Maybe! How do we know they won't abandon Python3 like they did Python2? I 
mean, whatever happened to Python1?! Why isn't it just "Python"?)


Thanks, Jim, for pointing this out!

R
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Tue, 2023-07-18 at 02:05 +, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> On 7/17/2023 5:54 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > Python 2 and Python 3 are enough different to effectively be
> > different languages.
> 
> BTW, there is a python2 to 3 converter, 

There's also this project:

https://github.com/jaredmauch/mailman2-python3/


-Jim P.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Robert Heller]

At Mon, 17 Jul 2023 17:24:15 -0700 (PDT) rich...@karmannghia.org wrote:

> 
> 
> Inching forward here folks, trying to get Mailman 2.1.39 going.
> 
> I get to the point it calls Python and it dies with:
> 
> checking for python... /usr/local/bin/python
> checking Python interpreter... configure: error:
> 
> * No Python interpreter found!
> * Try including the configure option
> * --with-python=/path/to/python/interpreter
> 
> I checked; there are only 245 different Python packages installed! 
> -slap-forehead- What was I thinking! OF COURSE it requires more of 'em!
> 
> If I type python and then double-hit tab, I get:
> 
> python3
> python3.11
> python3.11-config
> python3.11-x86_64-config
> python3-config
> python-argcomplete-check-easy-install-script
> python-argcomplete-tcsh
> python-config
> 

Mailman 2.x uses Python2, which is (long) EOL.  I don't think Mailman 2.x will 
work with Python3.

> ...I tryed to install the corresponding package, which appears to be 
> Python 2.7.15, it as a package but it couldn't be found by the 
> usual package manager
> 
> OTOH, can Python3 (what's there now) be THAT backwards incompatible?!
> 
> SURELY I can make it happy somehow, right?
> 
> How about an ln -s of /usr/local/bin/python to the one in my path?
> 
> Do I have to install the old Python from source, TOO?!
> 
> Anybody know?
> 
> Thanks,
> R
> 
> P.S. It seems BIZARRE to me that we have the good ole cc and gcc that just 
> work after however many decades, yet the modern developers seem just not 
> have a clue how - or just don't care - to code for longevity - what, the 
> code to get python has to enter python3 now or just die? Really?
> 
> I'm sure you can easily tell I strongly disagree with modern practices 
> about dependencies; "computer science" has gone backwards, at least in 
> strategy! ... But I digress...
> 
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>   
>  
> 

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 7/17/2023 5:54 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
Python 2 and Python 3 are enough different to effectively be different 
languages.


BTW, there is a python2 to 3 converter, however -I- don't know how 
successful that would be and I've done multiple language conversions over 
time (basic->fortran, different dialects of fortran, perl->tcl, and a few 
others); there are always gotcha's that need hand editing to make them work 
or be sensible (and if an underlying library function is missing you'll have 
to get it from somewhere).


https://docs.python.org/3/library/2to3.html

If anyone feels like a "project", getting MM2 to run on python3 would be 
both a challenge and a service.


Later,

z!
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users]

On 7/17/23 7:24 PM, rich...@karmannghia.org wrote:

OTOH, can Python3 (what's there now) be THAT backwards incompatible?!


How incompatible are AM & FM radio?

How incompatible are IPv4 and IPv6?

How incompatible are gasoline and Diesel motors?


SURELY I can make it happy somehow, right?


As Carl Z. alluded to, you'll have to /port/ Mailman to Python 3. 
Though I suspect you will both make some people happy and other people 
mad at doing so.



How about an ln -s of /usr/local/bin/python to the one in my path?


I don't think that's going to work out nearly as well as you hope it will.


Do I have to install the old Python from source, TOO?!


Maybe if you can't find a version of Python 2.x for your distribution.

P.S. It seems BIZARRE to me that we have the good ole cc and gcc that 
just work after however many decades, yet the modern developers seem 
just not have a clue how - or just don't care - to code for longevity - 
what, the code to get python has to enter python3 now or just die? Really?


Python 2 and Python 3 are enough different to effectively be different 
languages.


I'm sure you can easily tell I strongly disagree with modern practices 
about dependencies; "computer science" has gone backwards, at least in 
strategy! ... But I digress...


I'm inclined to agree with you.  But that's just my opinion.



Grant. . . .
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Mark Sapiro]

On 7/17/23 17:24, rich...@karmannghia.org wrote:


Inching forward here folks, trying to get Mailman 2.1.39 going.

I get to the point it calls Python and it dies with:

checking for python... /usr/local/bin/python
checking Python interpreter... configure: error:

* No Python interpreter found!
* Try including the configure option
* --with-python=/path/to/python/interpreter



You need Python 2.7. As others have pointed out, Mailman 2.1 won't work 
with Python 3.


You can install Python 2.7.18 from source 
 or you can look 
for a repository that allows you to install it as a package for your OS.


--
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[dmitri maziuk]

On 2023-07-17 7:24 PM, rich...@karmannghia.org wrote:

P.S. It seems BIZARRE to me that we have the good ole cc and gcc that 
just work after however many decades


Well... they have flags that I think maybe will still let them compile 
K C. C++, OTOH, is in many respects worse than python, and yes: python 
2 and 3 can be *that* incompatible. Boost library that C++ standards 
committee made part of modern "standard c++" is worse.


Abandon hope
Dima
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Python 2.7.15, etc, vs Python3...

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 7/17/2023 5:24 PM, rich...@karmannghia.org wrote:

Inching forward here folks, trying to get Mailman 2.1.39 going.

[...]

OTOH, can Python3 (what's there now) be THAT backwards incompatible?!


Oh yes it can! In some ways, it's a completely different language (and for 
that reason, MM2 hasn't been "ported" to python3).


You'll find a fair amount of discussion about this in the list archive.

Later,

z!
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