Re: [Mailman-Users] Red Hat FHS packaging STOP
Other users have requested this conversation stop or move offline. Some persons did mail me offline in the same vein and I responded essentially to say I could see no point in continuing I'm right, you are wrong games. Please stop this conversation. That I differ from the perspective below is not a reason to try and harrass by continuing a pointless conversation. Stop. Enough is enough. andy At 10:25 AM +0100 2005-06-15, Andy Heath wrote: Its customary when you interact with a community to learn their language not expect them to learn yours. What you suggest doesn't satisfy the requirement I stated. If you're a RedHat user, then talking about SRPMs is precisely the right sort of thing for RedHat to do. From what I can gather, you chose the OS first, then the application. That would imply that you want to run RedHat in general, and that other applications could equally meet your needs. This doesn't do much for non-RedHat users, but then if you're going to be running RedHat, you need to learn how RedHat works. If you had chosen the application first and then come asked us, we could have given you some feedback on what OSes are well-known to work with Mailman, including the ones previously and currently in use at python.org, etc You might still have chosen RedHat after that discussion, but you would hopefully have understood the problem a bit better, and had a better idea of where you need to go looking. -- andy ___ Andy Heath [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Red Hat FHS packaging
At 6:20 PM +0100 2005-06-15, Andy Heath wrote: Many open source software products provide small text installation documentation files that explain what is needed for particular platforms - for example the XFree86 distributions used to (dunno if they still do). The answer come look over here at our product doesn't cut it with me. There is mutual co-operation and there is come look over here and you won't need anything else. You seem to be displaying the second. The Mailman project cannot maintain binary packages for every platform we support. We provide the source code, and if others want to produce binary packages from that, that's up to them. RedHat is doing exactly the same sort of thing that other vendors do in this respect. If vendors decide they want to create a binary package, they need to keep and maintain their own documentation on how to update the binary packages. In this respect, RedHat does a much better job than some other vendors. If you're going to be running RedHat on your machines, then you need to know how RedHat handles their binary packages. Your failure to fully understand this process is not the fault of RedHat, nor is it the fault of the Mailman project. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Red Hat FHS packaging
At 10:25 AM +0100 2005-06-15, Andy Heath wrote: Its customary when you interact with a community to learn their language not expect them to learn yours. What you suggest doesn't satisfy the requirement I stated. If you're a RedHat user, then talking about SRPMs is precisely the right sort of thing for RedHat to do. From what I can gather, you chose the OS first, then the application. That would imply that you want to run RedHat in general, and that other applications could equally meet your needs. This doesn't do much for non-RedHat users, but then if you're going to be running RedHat, you need to learn how RedHat works. If you had chosen the application first and then come asked us, we could have given you some feedback on what OSes are well-known to work with Mailman, including the ones previously and currently in use at python.org, etc You might still have chosen RedHat after that discussion, but you would hopefully have understood the problem a bit better, and had a better idea of where you need to go looking. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Red Hat FHS packaging
I acknowledge Redhat do a good job with FHS and do interface with the community. Is there guidance in the standard mailman distributions on how to build for FC starting with a tar.gz ? According to their particular filesystem structure? No. That is something that RedHat would need to produce -- and support. This was my point - I think if you are going to take a package off on a branch for some specific use that would be a good thing to do. I don't want to knock Redhat at all - the policy is still worlds better than well-known vendors and it does all work well. I'm just lamenting my own decision to run with FC3 because one effect is a partial isolation (or extra work) and I'm pretty well locked in now. If john's point that standard build's work without problem on FC (albeit without keeping to the FHS) then it won't in general be an issue except that that fact is not easily apparent. Having grown up with slackware over a few years I personally find RH has a slight flavour of OS'es pedalled by those well-known vendors (*only* slight). Yes, I suffer from that point that John made that users tend to get upset when things are not where they expect them to be. Even more so when its hard work finding them. A plea to Redhat - if you are going to purloin mailman and do it with FHS then a file that accompanies the mailman distribution that explains how to do a manual build that conforms to the way RH does it would be very useful - a how to manually build for FC£ (which ends up with files in the same places as FC has them). Since you need to be following the development and dealing with that issue anyway I can't see that it is any extra work to write up the method and keep that up to date and contributed to the mm distribution. As its not extra cost the only reason I can see that RH would NOT do that is to lock persons in to RH. andy -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Red Hat FHS packaging
Andy == Andy Heath [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Andy A plea to Redhat - if you are going to purloin mailman and Andy do it with FHS then a file that accompanies the mailman Andy distribution that explains how to do a manual build that Andy conforms to the way RH does it would be very useful This service is provided by the RPM spec file distributed in the source RPM (there's a parallel srpm for every binary rpm). Sure, you need to learn to read the spec language, but I wouldn't hesitate. (YMMV, but note: I'm a Debian user, I don't know how to read it myself. I am sure it would be worth it if I found myself in your shoes.) -- School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of TsukubaTennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN Ask not how you can do free software business; ask what your business can do for free software. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Red Hat FHS packaging
Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: Andy == Andy Heath [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Andy A plea to Redhat - if you are going to purloin mailman and Andy do it with FHS then a file that accompanies the mailman Andy distribution that explains how to do a manual build that Andy conforms to the way RH does it would be very useful This service is provided by the RPM spec file distributed in the source RPM (there's a parallel srpm for every binary rpm). Sure, you need to learn to read the spec language, but I wouldn't hesitate. (YMMV, but note: I'm a Debian user, I don't know how to read it myself. I am sure it would be worth it if I found myself in your shoes.) Its customary when you interact with a community to learn their language not expect them to learn yours. What you suggest doesn't satisfy the requirement I stated. andy -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Red Hat FHS packaging
On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 08:05 +0100, Andy Heath wrote: A plea to Redhat - if you are going to purloin mailman and do it with FHS then a file that accompanies the mailman distribution that explains how to do a manual build that conforms to the way RH does it would be very useful - a how to manually build for FC (which ends up with files in the same places as FC has them). There is indeed a file that recreates the build, it's the src rpm and it's readily available. The src rpm contains the virgin tarball, all the current patches, and the mailman.spec spec file that controls the build. Users familiar with distributions utilizing rpm as the packaging tool (of which Red Hat / Fedora is only just one example) routinely download src rpms, tweak them for their own use and rebuild. This is standard practice. Since you need to be following the development and dealing with that issue anyway I can't see that it is any extra work to write up the method and keep that up to date and contributed to the mm distribution. It's not appropriate for the mailman project to maintain rpms, this is the domain of distributions which repackage upstream. This has been the working model of open source development almost since its inception. As its not extra cost the only reason I can see that RH would NOT do that is to lock persons in to RH. Everything you have asked for is available, free, and transparent. I suspect your conclusions are driven by a lack of familiarity with how to find what you are looking for rather than anything devious. To suggest disingenuous lock in by Red Hat is utter nonsense. -- John Dennis [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Red Hat FHS packaging
John Dennis wrote: On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 08:05 +0100, Andy Heath wrote: A plea to Redhat - if you are going to purloin mailman and do it with FHS then a file that accompanies the mailman distribution that explains how to do a manual build that conforms to the way RH does it would be very useful - a how to manually build for FC (which ends up with files in the same places as FC has them). There is indeed a file that recreates the build, it's the src rpm and it's readily available. The src rpm contains the virgin tarball, all the current patches, and the mailman.spec spec file that controls the build. Users familiar with distributions utilizing rpm as the packaging tool (of which Red Hat / Fedora is only just one example) routinely download src rpms, tweak them for their own use and rebuild. This is standard practice. Since you need to be following the development and dealing with that issue anyway I can't see that it is any extra work to write up the method and keep that up to date and contributed to the mm distribution. It's not appropriate for the mailman project to maintain rpms, this is the domain of distributions which repackage upstream. This has been the working model of open source development almost since its inception. As its not extra cost the only reason I can see that RH would NOT do that is to lock persons in to RH. Everything you have asked for is available, free, and transparent. I suspect your conclusions are driven by a lack of familiarity with how to find what you are looking for rather than anything devious. To suggest disingenuous lock in by Red Hat is utter nonsense. Sorry John and I don't mean to be rude but I think this is salespersons bs. It comes across to me as our product does everything, you want so you don't need anything else. Many open source software products provide small text installation documentation files that explain what is needed for particular platforms - for example the XFree86 distributions used to (dunno if they still do). The answer come look over here at our product doesn't cut it with me. There is mutual co-operation and there is come look over here and you won't need anything else. You seem to be displaying the second. I differ from your view. No offence intended. andy -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Red Hat FHS packaging
--On June 15, 2005 6:20:00 PM +0100 Andy Heath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I differ from your view. I think you've made your position clear. John's made his position clear. How about if the two of you take the rest of this discussion offline? -- Steve Burlingmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Michigan, ICPSRVoice: +1 734 615.3779 330 Packard Street FAX: +1 734 647.8700 Ann Arbor, MI 48104-2910 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Red Hat FHS packaging
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005, Steve Burling wrote: --On June 15, 2005 6:20:00 PM +0100 Andy Heath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I differ from your view. I think you've made your position clear. John's made his position clear. How about if the two of you take the rest of this discussion offline? Best idea yet. This is a Linux/RedHat issue of little interest to those not running RedHat. C -- Steve Burlingmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Michigan, ICPSRVoice: +1 734 615.3779 330 Packard Street FAX: +1 734 647.8700 Ann Arbor, MI 48104-2910 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/spork%40bway.net Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Red Hat FHS packaging (was: 2.1.5 fedora core 3 prevent mailbody problem)
Andy Heath wrote: If the mailman developer community adopts the FHS for mailman then that's a different story entirely and I would follow without complaint. In fairness to John Dennis, he did raise these issues for discussion last year on the Mailman-Developers list. See threads at http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2004-September/017270.html and http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2004-October/017343.html -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Red Hat FHS packaging
Mark Sapiro wrote: Andy Heath wrote: If the mailman developer community adopts the FHS for mailman then that's a different story entirely and I would follow without complaint. In fairness to John Dennis, he did raise these issues for discussion last year on the Mailman-Developers list. See threads at http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2004-September/017270.html and http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2004-October/017343.html Thanks for pointing me at these posts Mark. I read all the content of those 2 posts by John and understand the arguments. I'm still of the view that unless the community runs with it then its not such a good step though I appreciate John's view is different. The issue it raises is maintenance. If FC does it differently then it means users are dependent on FC providing updated packages or working hard to manually do that mapping with updated code. Effectively it becomes an FC package not a general one but the developers are not part of FC. It also introduces another step at which bugs can occur. Is there guidance in the standard mailman distributions on how to build for FC starting with a tar.gz ? There needs to be some easy path between the two methods in my view. andy -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Red Hat FHS packaging
On Tue, 2005-06-14 at 21:38 +0100, Andy Heath wrote: Is there guidance in the standard mailman distributions on how to build for FC starting with a tar.gz ? To the best of my knowledge the install document provided in the tar ball applies equally well to Fedora thus it is not necessary to have special Fedora instructions. -- John Dennis [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Red Hat FHS packaging
At 9:38 PM +0100 2005-06-14, Andy Heath wrote: The issue it raises is maintenance. If FC does it differently then it means users are dependent on FC providing updated packages or working hard to manually do that mapping with updated code. Effectively it becomes an FC package not a general one but the developers are not part of FC. Correct. They have produced their binary package version, and they need to keep up-to-date with that. My experience is that they've done a pretty good job in that department. Of course, any support issues that come up that are specific to their binary package version is something that they will need to support. Again, RedHat seems to have done a pretty good job in that respect -- witness John's presence on the mailman-users mailing list, and his frequent posts. At this point, I'm much more unhappy with the kind of crap we've seen from CPanel and Apple. Is there guidance in the standard mailman distributions on how to build for FC starting with a tar.gz ? According to their particular filesystem structure? No. That is something that RedHat would need to produce -- and support. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
