Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
CVR == Chuq Von Rospach [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: CVR On 4/8/02 9:59 AM, Dave Sherohman [EMAIL PROTECTED] CVR wrote: OK, I'll give you that List-Post: isn't applicable to your list. CVR And I believe in 2.1, mailman won't include headers that CVR aren't relevant to a list, so an announce-only list won't get CVR list-post. Barry? Is that true? I know we talked about it. Sort of. There's actually no concrete notion of an announce-only list; IOW, there's no switch to pull to say this is or isn't an announce-only list. In MM2.1, the way to do that is to - turn on the moderation flag for all members - set the default moderation action to discard (or hold if you don't want to be so strict/nasty). - turn off the moderation flag for the members who are allowed to post - add any non-members who are allowed to post to the accept these non-members list. That having been said, MM2.1beta2 will have the following controls on the List-* headers: - if the site administrator allows it, you can suppress all the List-* headers for all messages. For MM2.1beta2, I'm going to change the default to allow list owners to override the headers (the default used to be to not allow overrides). - there will be a separate config option to include the List-Post: header. Set this to No if you're running an announce-only list - List-Archive: will only be added if your list actually has archives enabled. - List-Id: will always be added for all messages (unless suppression of all rfc2369 headers is enabled). - for non-administrivia messages (i.e. postings), List-Help:, List-Unsubscribe:, and List-Subscribe: will be added (unless suppression of all rfc2369 headers is enabled). - for administrivia messages, those three headers will not be included, but an X-List-Administrivia: header will be added instead (again, unless all are suppressed). I think that about covers all the bases, and should make everyone happy (FLW). -Barry -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
Makes you kind of want to create a Meta admin page with some standard setups like Announce-only list, etc. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
JC == Jon Carnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JC Makes you kind of want to create a Meta admin page with some JC standard setups like Announce-only list, etc. What I have in mind for MM-after-2.1 is to allow the creation of list styles which can be easily applied to any particular list. Probably exactly what you're thinking about. -Barry -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
On 4/19/02 8:53 AM, Jon Carnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Makes you kind of want to create a Meta admin page with some standard setups like Announce-only list, etc. Or write up faqs/howtos on how to configure specific standard list styles? Maybe an operators manual of some sort? -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Very funny, Scotty. Now beam my clothes down here, will you? -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
At 14:32 +0100 4/9/02, robin szemeti wrote: On Monday 08 April 2002 17:38, David wrote: just think that the way they say that leaving the headers in is following standards and that there is no option to remove them is absurd especially when that is not wht he standards say. 'no option to remove them' ?? what? just edit the source, how hard can it be?? Impossible, in some cases. Let's take an example: pair.com (a very large Web hosting provider, among other things) provides accounts with free use of pairlist. This is all based on Mailman (v2.0.6 at this point), and so far as I can tell the lists are all administrated through the Web-based interface. If an option doesn't appear in that interface, then the list admin can't affect that function. For some odd reason, pair.com doesn't want people editing the Mailman source that runs all its lists-- can't imagine why that would be. It's true that many accounts at pair allow for running one's own scripts, and that would suffice for many people. For many others, who have cheaper accounts that don't permit shell access or customized CGI, it would be a touch more difficult. And as a last point... not everyone is fluent enough in Python programming to hack the source. Like me, for example. [1] I must say I really don;t get why there is all this jumping up and down over what is essentially meta-information in the mail. ANYTHING can be added to the headers by mailhosts along the way ... shrug if you don;t want to look at them then just ignore them whats the big deal? As others have pointed out, there are cases where one may wish to create an announcements list under Mailman-- probably because that's what a service provider gives a person, and the source is beyond their ability to change. In such one-way lists, the headers are largely irrelevant and so are misleading at best. It might even represent a noticeable bandwidth savings to not have them, if messages go out with some frequency to a large list. The meta-information headers on the Mailman list I maintain amount to just over 0.5KB per message. Multiple that by 1700 list members and about 50 messages per day, and those headers alone represent 42,500KB of data per day. That's a relatively big deal if one is paying for the traffic. And I'm running it via pair.com, so source editing is not an option for me. Now, I think the headers are very useful for my list and wouldn't want to get rid of them, but if they weren't useful then I'd want to drop them-- in part to save bandwidth, but also to avoid throwing data at the users which doesn't apply. Without source access, I can't do that. This means that I'm a lot less likely to use Mailman for one-way announcement lists, or for lists where I think most of the traffic will be in short messages. If I'm limited to using Mailman or nothing else, then I might not set up such lists at all. Personally, I don't understand why it would be such a big deal to offer, as both a Web-based and command-line option, the ability to include or omit these headers. That allows the maintainers to decide what's best for their particular list. I'm sure the option could default to headers on and nobody would much complain. Maximum flexibility would be afforded by letting admins pick which individual headers to keep and which to omit, but I suppose that might be a bit much. -- Eric A. Meyer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/ Author, Cascading Style Sheets: The Definitive Guide and CSS 2.0 Programmer's Reference http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/books/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 02:32:14PM +0100, robin szemeti wrote: if you and a couple of others have this great 'problem' with headers (which are not normally seen unless you specifically ask for 'all headers' in your mail client anyway [1]) Depends on the MUA. The great source of annoyance, IIRC, is Eudora, which apparently defaults to showing all headers except those that are specifically excluded. (Interestingly enough, that's also how I've configured mutt on all my accounts. It's often amusing to see the things that some people add to their headers...) -- When we reduce our own liberties to stop terrorism, the terrorists have already won. - reverius Innocence is no protection when governments go bad. - Tom Swiss -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
--- Ashley M. Kirchner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David wrote: Why the folks who designed this are on such a power trip over something that damn near renders their product useless is beyond me. I have tried the edits I have been given to nuke these absurd headers but so far none of them work. It would be of great benefit if the whole thing was just taken OUT of he code altogether and let the list managers set up message fronters/footers with what they want. I fail to see why something so simple has to be made into such a crappy feature. Yeah I know quote some absurd SUGGESTED OPTIONAL compliance standard to me. It does not change the fact that what I am saying is right. Hey, no one is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to use Mailman. Stop barking up the tree and go find a fire hydrant. Actually itis the only product that my host offers for mailing lists. It is a damn good program in all respects other than the programmers decision to force this on us and wrongfully cite it as following the standards. The standards make it optional not forced. Hell I like Mailman but just wisk they would change that and stop telling us things that are not true when we ask how to make it work the way we want. -- H | Life is the art of drawing without an eraser. - John Gardner + Ashley M. Kirchner mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] . 303.442.6410 x130 Director of Internet Operations / SysAdmin. 800.441.3873 x130 Photo Craft Laboratories, Inc.. 3550 Arapahoe Ave, #6 http://www.pcraft.com . . .. Boulder, CO 80303, U.S.A. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
--- Chris Hedemark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 2002-04-07 at 01:24, David wrote: The debate goes on I know, but here is exactly why these excessive headers suck. I want to set up a news list not a discussion list. [lots of whining deleted] Maybe you selected the wrong tool for the job? MySQL, Postfix, Apache and a tiny bit of PHP scripting is probably all that you really need. In the meantime I'm very happy for the headers. It is great that you like the headers. You should be able to use them if you want to. I have no issue with that at all. If I were running a pure discussion list I may well opt for one as well. The program is damn fine and open source kicks butt. Kudos for those who wrote it spending all the time they did. I just think that the way they say that leaving the headers in is following standards and that there is no option to remove them is absurd especially when that is not wht he standards say. -- *** | Rev. Chris Hedemark, DD | Hillsborough, NC | http://yonderway.com | GPG Public Key - http://yonderway.com/chris/hedemark.gpg *** -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 10:24:56PM -0800, David wrote: The debate goes on I know, but here is exactly why these excessive headers suck. I want to set up a news list not a discussion list. The only person who will be able to post is the list owner. I don't need all the junk about how to post to the list on top of each mail since it is WRONG for the setup in question. Taken from your message's headers: List-Help: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=help List-Post: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Subscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=subscribe List-Id: Mailman mailing list management users mailman-users.python.org List-Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe List-Archive: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/ OK, I'll give you that List-Post: isn't applicable to your list. I'd even go so far as to suggest that it should be suppressed by default on any list which does not allow normal list members to post. And I guess it might be a little silly to include subscription instructions (the List-Subscribe: header) on messages that only get sent to people who are already subscribed to the list. List-Archive:, like List-Post:, seems like Mailman could determine its applicability programmatically and disable it where it doesn't apply (i.e., for non-archived lists). This may already be done, but I wouldn't know since I don't run any non-archived lists. But List-Help:, List-Id:, and List-Unsubscribe: all seem like they would be applicable to your list. -- When we reduce our own liberties to stop terrorism, the terrorists have already won. - reverius Innocence is no protection when governments go bad. - Tom Swiss -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
On 4/8/02 9:59 AM, Dave Sherohman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, I'll give you that List-Post: isn't applicable to your list. And I believe in 2.1, mailman won't include headers that aren't relevant to a list, so an announce-only list won't get list-post. Barry? Is that true? I know we talked about it. And I guess it might be a little silly to include subscription instructions (the List-Subscribe: header) on messages that only get sent to people who are already subscribed to the list. Not at all. Messages get forwarded around A LOT. So the list-subscribe is there so that the person who gets the message from a friend of a friend who saw it on a mail list has a chance of figuring out how to get onto the list. List-Archive:, like List-Post:, seems like Mailman could determine Again, I think that's a 2.1 thing. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ IMHO: Jargon. Acronym for In My Humble Opinion. Used to flag as an opinion something that is clearly from context an opinion to everyone except the mentally dense. Opinions flagged by IMHO are actually rarely humble. IMHO. (source: third unabridged dictionary of chuqui-isms). -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 09:38:23 -0700 (PDT) jebva David wrote: I just think that the way they say that leaving the headers in is following standards and that there is no option to remove them is absurd especially when that is not wht he standards say. RFC2369 states that they are optional. Standards language is quite precise, and the definitional of optional is equally precise. Specifically in this case it means that mail systems are not mandated to support the headers, that mail systems may choose to support or not to support the headers while remaining conformant -- but what the standard doesn't say is that a product must present the choice to support (or not) RFC2369 headers externally. Mailman chooses to implement the RFC2369 headers and in doing so it is conformant with RFC2369. Mailman chooses to not allow a (simple) way for the RFC2369 headers to be disabled. In doing so it remains conformant. -- J C Lawrence -(*)Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. [EMAIL PROTECTED] He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
On Sat, 6 Apr 2002 22:24:56 -0800 (PST) jebva David wrote: Why the folks who designed this are on such a power trip over something that damn near renders their product useless is beyond me. Have you considered that perhaps Mailman is just not for you? -- J C Lawrence -(*)Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. [EMAIL PROTECTED] He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
David wrote: Why the folks who designed this are on such a power trip over something that damn near renders their product useless is beyond me. I have tried the edits I have been given to nuke these absurd headers but so far none of them work. It would be of great benefit if the whole thing was just taken OUT of he code altogether and let the list managers set up message fronters/footers with what they want. I fail to see why something so simple has to be made into such a crappy feature. Yeah I know quote some absurd SUGGESTED OPTIONAL compliance standard to me. It does not change the fact that what I am saying is right. Hey, no one is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to use Mailman. Stop barking up the tree and go find a fire hydrant. -- H | Life is the art of drawing without an eraser. - John Gardner + Ashley M. Kirchner mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] . 303.442.6410 x130 Director of Internet Operations / SysAdmin. 800.441.3873 x130 Photo Craft Laboratories, Inc.. 3550 Arapahoe Ave, #6 http://www.pcraft.com . . .. Boulder, CO 80303, U.S.A. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
On 4/7/02 5:30 PM, J C Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you considered that perhaps Mailman is just not for you? Nope. Not relevant. Don't inject facts into a rant. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Headers and why they suck
On Sun, 2002-04-07 at 01:24, David wrote: The debate goes on I know, but here is exactly why these excessive headers suck. I want to set up a news list not a discussion list. [lots of whining deleted] Maybe you selected the wrong tool for the job? MySQL, Postfix, Apache and a tiny bit of PHP scripting is probably all that you really need. In the meantime I'm very happy for the headers. -- *** | Rev. Chris Hedemark, DD | Hillsborough, NC | http://yonderway.com | GPG Public Key - http://yonderway.com/chris/hedemark.gpg *** -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
