Re: [MlMt] Becoming a MM patron

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 8 Jun 2024, at 16:34, Henry Seiden wrote:

> Since M-M is (and continues to be) so far above the level of the “Standard” 
> Mail app and so many users (to a lesser extent myself) use those advanced 
> features, as witnessed here, I add my support to its roster, the Patron List.

Thanks for the support! It is very much appreciated.

> I enjoy both the interaction of the users here, the development of the app 
> and the knowledge gained from the kind advice rendered by Benny Kjær Nielsen, 
> MailMate’s lead developer.

And only developer ;)

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Re: [MlMt] Becoming a MM patron

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 8 Jun 2024, at 16:33, Steven Taylor wrote:

> The owner of GyazMail said:
>
>> After May 30, 2022, GyazMail no longer can access your Google account.
>> Secure access (OAuth authentication) to your GyazMail Google account is not 
>> supported for the following reasons:
>> A verification process by Google must be required in order to access Gmail 
>> more securely.
>> The verification process costs between $10,000 and $75,000 every year.
>> Google will take weeks to complete the verification process.

This is a good example of the effort it takes to figure out exactly what is 
required. I had the same understanding when Google first introduced 
requirements for OAuth2 access (years ago), but this was incorrect. There's no 
required payment for a desktop email app. The same goes for CASA Tier 2 
although this is a bit muddled by the requirement to scan the code and not all 
code scanners being free to use. It might depend on the interpretation of the 
requirements of individual assessors. We'll see how it goes next year.

To be completely clear, I have not paid anything to Google or anyone else to 
pass the OAuth2 verification.

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Re: [MlMt] Becoming a MM patron

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 8 Jun 2024, at 15:51, Pierre Igot wrote:

> I have no links to Benny. I am just a (very) happy customer, and I am writing 
> this completely spontaneously.

Thanks for the peptalk! It is very much appreciated.

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Re: [MlMt] MailMate passed the CASA tier 2 security assessment (hurrah?)

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 8 Jun 2024, at 17:19, Bill Cole wrote:

> On 2024-06-08 at 06:21:14 UTC-0400 (Sat, 08 Jun 2024 12:21:14 +0200)
> Benny Kjær Nielsen 
> is rumored to have said:
>
> [...]
>> Before going into what this means, I should tell you that I've completed the 
>> assessment and MailMate went into the “verified” state a week ago. This 
>> should make the MailMate/Gmail combination fairly safe for the next year. To 
>> be more precise, the verification expires May 7th 2025.
>>
>> Going forward, I will have to do this every year. This means that every year 
>> there is a potential risk of MailMate no longer being able to access Gmail 
>> accounts. Google might decide that some feature/language/library used by 
>> MailMate is no longer considered safe, or they might come up with some other 
>> requirement that I cannot easily satisfy. This is a risk that I somehow need 
>> to make sure that users are aware of before buying a license key. I'm still 
>> considering how to best solve this problem.
>
> Thank you for doing this tedious yet disturbing task.

Thanks! I'd like to say it wasn't so bad :) This type of task might, in 
retrospect, not involve much work, but it takes a lot of time to understand 
what is required and figure out what exactly needs to be done. And then there 
is the time you wonder about what to do if it's simply not possible (or too 
expensive) to fulfil the requirements.

> It is a very sad state of affairs that we've reached where service providers 
> feel the need to vet every client application which they will allow to use 
> their authentication systems. It is good that there is an open-ish 
> process/standard (CASA) that hopefully will be common to all providers who 
> demand this sort of thing, but the whole concept remains at odds with 
> traditional core principles of the Internet.

CASA likely makes a lot of sense for web-based applications. Right now it 
doesn't make much sense for a desktop email application and if it did then I 
think it would be much better if Apple was involved in the process (checking 
every release of the app).

And then there's the basic problem of the limitations of OAuth2. Google can 
block a specific app from access via OAuth2, but such an app can quite easily 
pretend to be any app which does have access to Gmail (the user would see this 
during authentication, but the user might not care). That goes both ways. Any 
app can pretend to be MailMate. If Google really wants to block a user from 
using a specific app with Gmail then they have to block all (desktop) apps.

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Re: [MlMt] Why does MailMate tries to go to the internet when I click a link in a message?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 8 Jun 2024, at 16:32, Bill Cole wrote:

> I noticed that too and reported the bug in LS. The reply from ObDev was that 
> this a known issue and blamed the bug on macOS.

Well, I also blamed macOS when encountering this issue. I guess I'll just wait 
and see what happens. (I haven't really tried, but maybe there is some way to 
work around it.)

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Re: [MlMt] tags and email client

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 8 Jun 2024, at 18:31, aisrael wrote:

Dear Bill, thanks for the input. Your maximum of 26 might be the 
explanation. In fact, beside my 26 Mailmate tags, I see in Preside a 
bunch of additional tags/keywords that start with $ ($Junk, 
$MDNSent,…), which I guess are “universal” keywords.


All IMAP servers must support a set of system IMAP keywords: . These 
start with `\`. Various semi-standard keywords exist starting with `$`. 
These should, ideally, have the same meaning in all IMAP clients.


The question is : how are these 26 selected (not the most recent, not 
the oldest, not the first or last by alphabetical order), and am I 
allowed to decide which 26 are accessible (I guess not).


My guess is that they are the first 26 you created.

In addition, as my server uses Exchange, I am even more surprised that 
it works, even if only partially.


Hmm, me too. I thought there was very little support in all variants of 
Exchange.


I think some users have had success with using Davmail as a proxy to 
Exchange. I believe it can map IMAP keywords to Exchange categories.


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[MlMt] MailMate passed the CASA tier 2 security assessment (hurrah?)

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

Hi MailMate users,

most mailing list readers probably missed this, but a couple of months 
ago I wrote something on the list which deserves a follow-up.


On 3 Apr 2024, at 15:27, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:

[...] When I get back, the main priority will be to look into a 
potential future Gmail issue. The “kill switch” I mentioned in an 
old blog post might be looming around the corner: 
https://blog.freron.com/2015/is-oauth2-support-a-good-thing/


Almost half a year ago I got a message from Google informing me that 
they needed me to do some additional verification steps in order for 
MailMate users to be able to continue to use Gmail. They told me that I 
had 90 days to initiate the process -- this naturally meant I ignored it 
for almost 60 days. When I finally initiated the process, I realized 
that it would likely require more work than I had anticipated. It also 
included a deadline:


“You are required to complete a CASA Tier 2 security assessment for 
your application [...] by the following date: 2024-06-12. This 
assessment is required annually; to learn more, please visit the CASA 
website.”


Before going into what this means, I should tell you that I've completed 
the assessment and MailMate went into the “verified” state a week 
ago. This should make the MailMate/Gmail combination fairly safe for the 
next year. To be more precise, the verification expires May 7th 2025.


Going forward, I will have to do this every year. This means that every 
year there is a potential risk of MailMate no longer being able to 
access Gmail accounts. Google might decide that some 
feature/language/library used by MailMate is no longer considered safe, 
or they might come up with some other requirement that I cannot easily 
satisfy. This is a risk that I somehow need to make sure that users are 
aware of before buying a license key. I'm still considering how to best 
solve this problem.


The same, by the way, is true for any other desktop email client, but I 
think it's fair to assume that many of them are “too big to fail”.


The rest of this email is for anyone wondering what the assessment is 
all about and then some random thoughts on the subject. It's a brain 
dump and probably a bit of a mess :)


---

So what is a CASA Tier 2 security assessment? It's mostly questions 
which are irrelevant to MailMate (and probably most desktop email 
clients) which means I've been clicking a lot of checkboxes on a 
website. Most often the options are Yes, No, and Not Applicable. 
Choosing the last option would trigger a discussion with an assessor 
which would end with me either changing it to Yes or a note being added 
to the item in the final “letter of validation”.


The most problematic part was a so-called static analysis of the source 
code. This can be done in a number of ways, but the only one really 
available to me was a “self scan” using an open source tool. I'll 
skip the details, but let's just say that this doesn't really work well 
for an application having code in C, C++, Objective C, Objective C++, 
Javascript, Ruby, Python, Swift, Bash, and possibly more. Yes, it's a 
complex app.


Scanning code for vulnerabilities is good and I could likely do more to 
integrate that in my build process. I'm not questioning that. 
Apple/Xcode/clang warns about insecure/deprecated APIs/functions in the 
build process and I wouldn't mind if this was extended to also check for 
known/likely vulnerabilities. Every release of MailMate is also scanned 
by Apple (after compilation) as part of the so-called notarization 
process although I think this is mostly about detecting intentionally 
included malware. Nevertheless, this process is more “real” since I 
cannot release an update which does not pass these checks. The CASA 2 
assessment is based completely on good faith.


Other random thoughts on this subject:

* In relation to Gmail, the most sensitive part of talking to the server 
is the OAuth2 authentication process. MailMate never sees the user 
password because that is part of the process. The token used to gain 
access is stored in Keychain Access (Apple).
* Ironically, the whole OAuth2 authentication process is handled by a 
third party framework. This framework would need to be part of the code 
scan described above. The framework (AppAuth) is provided by Google. I 
would therefore be scanning Googles own code. What happens if that has 
an issue ;)
* MailMate is an IMAP client and not a Gmail client. IMAP is how 
MailMate talks to a huge number of different email servers with 
different IMAP implementations. In theory, all of them could come up 
with their own sets of requirements and assessment procedures. Will I 
eventually be going through processes like this every year for every 
email provider?
* Providing an app with IMAP access to an email account means that the 
app gets total control of the emails in that account. No code 
verification process is going to change that. The user has to trust 
MailMate

Re: [MlMt] tags and email client

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 7 Jun 2024, at 18:06, aisrael wrote:

My understanding, as a non expert in mail clients’ subtleties, is 
that it is impossible to transfer tags (or smart mailboxes based on 
tags) from Mailmate to another client (except for a few IMAP 
keywords). Is it absolutely impossible, or is there a workaround?


Scott already gave a thorough answer. I'll just add some random 
thoughts:


* Not all servers support IMAP keywords, in particular, 
Office365/Exchange. In those cases, MailMate will quietly (which is kind 
of bad) make them local-only.
* Some server have a limit on the number of IMAP keywords which results 
in various silent errors (like tags getting cleared shortly after being 
set).
* Thunderbird has, I think, 5 custom IMAP keywords. Tags can be created 
in MailMate which map to those keywords and then they should work nicely 
together.
* Colored flags in Apple Mail also uses IMAP keywords. MailMate mirrors 
this behavior.


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Re: [MlMt] Why does MailMate tries to go to the internet when I click a link in a message?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 8 Jun 2024, at 8:48, leo wrote:

However, when I *click a link* in this message I get a notification 
from Little Snitch that MailMate (not the browser where the link will 
open!) wants to access the link.


This is a known and unresolved issue. Based on memory: This started 
happening after a macOS update. I could reproduce it, but I could not 
easily fix it. I think I concluded that this happens within Apple code 
when using Apple API to open the link in the default browser, but I'm 
not 100% sure about this. I think I hoped a future macOS release would 
magically resolve it :)


Again, based on memory. The issue is still on my ToDo.

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Re: [MlMt] Messages in one account duplicated in some views, but not others

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 17 May 2024, at 23:46, Eric A. Meyer wrote:

> On 17 May 2024, at 3:40, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:
>
>> Whenever seeing duplicates behaving like this, it's a good idea to enable 
>> the “Source Mailbox” column in the message list. It's very likely that the 
>> messages are not located in the same mailbox -- but somehow the server sees 
>> it as the same mailbox.
>
> They're in the same mailbox ("INBOX - e...@meyerweb.com").  Also they have 
> the same UID, though not the same Msg ID.  Screenshot fragment I took just 
> now: https://meyerweb.com/pix/2024/mailmate-dupes-source-uid-msgid.png

This does look like a MailMate bug and a pretty serious one. The Msg ID is the 
internal ID used by MailMate. This also tells us that MailMate has seen more 
than 2.6 million messages since you installed it. Although apparently some of 
those are duplicates. Duplicate Msg IDs in MailMate are not possible.

The UID is the server ID for each message. Each message in a specific IMAP 
mailbox has a unique UID. Duplicates are not possible.

> What's really frustrating from a reproducibility standpoint is that the 
> duplication seems to have stopped happening.  Older duplicated messages are 
> still duplicated, but new messages to the same mailbox are not.  Is it 
> possible I somehow accidentally caused the mailbox to duplicate all its 
> messages at some point without realizing it?

No, I think this is a MailMate issue. Somehow MailMate fetches the same message 
twice thinking they have different UIDs. I'm not sure how that could happen -- 
although some very old experimental features could be involved.

I think we should debug off list since I might need more details than should be 
shared on a public mailing list. I'll write you directly with some additional 
questions.

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Re: [MlMt] Messages in one account duplicated in some views, but not others

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 7 Jun 2024, at 15:14, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:

> On 5 Jun 2024, at 5:24, Eric A. Meyer wrote:
>
>> But I don't think it will help me clean up because the messages aren't 
>> actually duplicated on the server.
>
> When seeing duplicates in All Messages (or other smart mailboxes) then it's 
> always a good idea to enable the “Source Mailbox” column in the message list. 
> This will tell you exactly in which IMAP mailboxes these messages are located.

I just realized that you already tried this after an earlier reply from me. I 
must have been on autopilot. I'll go back to your reply to my previous reply 
and you can just ignore my second useless reply. A bit confusing, sorry :)

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Re: [MlMt] MailMate Patron Status in MailMate | Registration

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 7 Jun 2024, at 17:01, Steven Taylor wrote:

> In time, it would be nice if your Patron status was reflected like the 
> License status is in the main MailMate menu under Registration.

Agreed. It's non-trivial, but I do already have some notes on the changes 
needed to do this.

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Re: [MlMt] Possible to see preview lines within message list?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 10 May 2024, at 18:16, Edwards Christopher wrote:

I replied to Edwards some time ago in a private email, but I forgot that the 
question had also been posted to the mailing list. For the record, here is the 
question and my reply:

> One feature other clients have (including Apple Mail) is the ability to 
> preview several lines of the email before opening it.  Is this available in 
> MailMate?

No, at least not yet. This is somewhat related to MailMate not supporting a 
multi-line single column way of displaying messages in the message list. I have 
actually done a lot of work on that and it's part of test releases of MailMate, 
but this does not yet include a short preview of the message text.

In other words, there's hope (but no promises).

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Re: [MlMt] Copying the contents of a smart folder to a zip file?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 16 May 2024, at 2:18, Steven M. Bellovin wrote:

Is there any rational way to copy every message in a smart folder to a 
single zip file, preserving the date order? If I cmd-C the list of 
messages and copy/paste the files somewhere (or do the same via the 
command line), the order is quasi-random, not preserving dates. (I'm 
perfectly happy to do any sort of weird stuff from the command line.)


There are several things affecting the behaviors described in this 
thread. I'll just quickly mention a few things:


1. Newer MailMate releases may behave differently. This is because 
MailMate would previously fail to update the creation date when saving 
messages/attachments. Instead it could in some cases be the date used to 
previously save the message in the database or a cache folder. This 
would result in a mess of dates.
2. Most commands/actions in MailMate will happen in the order of the 
internal Msg ID of the message. This value will in turn be based on when 
MailMate initially fetched the message. (It would make sense for 
MailMate to sort messages by date, but this mostly doesn't happen -- in 
particular this affects exporting to the mbox file.)
3. The latest few uploads of MailMate (since r6031) include an updated 
Export action for rules. This is very flexible and configurable. 
Ideally, something similar should be made available for direct usage 
instead of the “Copy to Folder” bundle command, but that is not 
currently the case. At the same time, this should be moved to the File 
menu where I suspect most users would be looking for it. This is on my 
ToDo.


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Re: [MlMt] Explanation of signature settings

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 13 May 2024, at 7:00, Logan Kirkland wrote:

It’s not obvious to me what some of the settings on the Signatures 
tab do, and I can’t find an explanation in the manual.


Specifically, what exactly do these options do?
- “Signature based on history”


The signature is based on what you have used in previous emails to the 
same recipient (using the Signature menu to select the signature). If no 
previous emails are found then it's based on what you tend to use when 
sending from the selected From address.



- “Reset Signature Usage History”


Reset whatever MailMate has learned from previously sent emails.


- “Default signature”


If nothing was found based on history then this determines if/when a 
signature should be added by default.


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Re: [MlMt] Mailmate Experimental Build upgrade V6032, installed on MacOS Sonoma 14.5

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 3 Jun 2024, at 10:23, Charlie Clark wrote:

> On 2 Jun 2024, at 16:24, Henry Seiden wrote:
>
>> Installed. Seems OK in a short, initial survey. Composing with the new 
>> version.
>
> I'm not sure how useful such reports are for builds that Benny doesn't even 
> consider suitable for testing. r6030 is still the most recent test release 
> and still crashes for me.

Just for the record (I also wrote Charlie directly), the latest test release 
includes a fix for this issue. It was related to a cyclic mailbox reference 
involving a submailbox of a mailbox using the Submailboxes features.

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Re: [MlMt] Messages in one account duplicated in some views, but not others

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 5 Jun 2024, at 5:24, Eric A. Meyer wrote:

But I don't think it will help me clean up because the messages aren't 
actually duplicated on the server.


When seeing duplicates in All Messages (or other smart mailboxes) then 
it's always a good idea to enable the “Source Mailbox” column in the 
message list. This will tell you exactly in which IMAP mailboxes these 
messages are located.


In most cases, the explanation is one of the following two:

1. Google (Gmail) which does not really support IMAP, but their own 
variant of IMAP with different rules. I've written about this (including 
how to deal with it) in this manual page: 
https://manual.mailmate-app.com/account_setup#gmail
2. Some SMTP servers have the non-standard behavior of saving a copy of 
sent messages in an IMAP folder (within the IMAP account which uses the 
same login credentials as the SMTP server), but MailMate also saves a 
copy. Depending on settings these might end up in different IMAP 
mailboxes.


Let me know if neither of the above explains the problem.

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Re: [MlMt] Key binding selector for "Edit Tags"?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 6 Jun 2024, at 20:39, Tariq Magdon-Ismail wrote:

I'd like to create a multi-stroke key binding for "Edit Tags" but 
couldn't find any obvious selector here: 
https://manual.mailmate-app.com/key_binding_selectors.html. Is there 
one for this action?


I think this is what you are looking for:

```
"t" = {
"t" = "toggleTagsEditor:";
};
```

And that will likely only work if the key binding in the Tags settings 
pane has been changed/removed, but you obviously already did that.


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Re: [MlMt] Messages in one account duplicated in some views, but not others

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 10 May 2024, at 5:15, Eric A. Meyer wrote:

> In all my smart mailboxes that contain messages from this account, I still 
> see the message duplication.  Furthermore, anything I do to one of the 
> copies, happens a few seconds later to the other: changes of unread state, 
> flagging, deleting, etc.
>
> Anyone have any ideas why this might be happening and how to fix it?

Whenever seeing duplicates behaving like this, it's a good idea to enable the 
“Source Mailbox” column in the message list. It's very likely that the messages 
are not located in the same mailbox -- but somehow the server sees it as the 
same mailbox.

Is Gmail involved in this issue?

If yes, then this part of the manual is very important to understand what might 
be going on: https://manual.mailmate-app.com/account_setup#gmail

If no, then let me know what the Source Mailbox column tells you.

(I'm a bit busy until Monday so further debugging might have to wait.)

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Re: [MlMt] Customising Mailbox Headers

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 16 Feb 2024, at 8:47, Malcolm Fitzgerald wrote:

> To switch multiple headers it's necessary to option-click the header to call 
> up the dialog for every single change. I would much prefer if we could open 
> the header column dialog and make multiple changes. When we are ready to 
> commit the changes, we can use an OK button, or we can Cancel the dialog and 
> no changes occur.

I'll make a note of this. It could possibly be part of major changes to how 
mailbox column settings are handled. I will at least keep it in mind. As I've 
noted often (sorry), I consider mailbox settings store/restore/reuse to be both 
badly designed and in some cases buggy.

> [...] Because no header is displayed, (and there don't seem to be any menu 
> items that allow me to manage that either,) then we cannot add the columns we 
> would like to have displayed in the mailbox.

When this happens, you'll still have the “View > Columns > ...” menu available. 
You can use this to add a second column (and thereby get the header row back).

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Re: [MlMt] Date format

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 5 Jan 2024, at 14:00, Bill Cole wrote:

> MM uses the system date & time formats, using the localization settings 
> accessible in the Language & Region preferences panel of the System 
> Preferences.  If the macOS setting for your locale doesn't give you what you 
> want, the Advanced button in that panel lets you set whatever formats you 
> want.

It appears this button has disappeared (since Ventura?) while the functionality 
still exists low-level: 
https://www.caseyliss.com/2022/11/14/ventura-date-formats

Using the still existing GUI setting I can still change the format used in 
MailMate for the date in the message list, but that doesn't work for the 
original poster. I'm debugging with him off list.

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Re: [MlMt] There's a NEW official Test Version (6015)

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 28 Dec 2023, at 14:14, Charlie Clark wrote:

> On 28 Dec 2023, at 12:14, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:
>
>> Charlie: Whether or not the above reveals anything, write me via “Help > 
>> Send Feedback” in order to debug this issue.
>
> Will give it another go but it didn't get that far last time so nothing to 
> send.

I just meant you should send me a message with the working revision of 
MailMate, e.g. including output from the Terminal and/or the most recent crash 
report.

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Re: [MlMt] There's a NEW official Test Version (6015)

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 28 Dec 2023, at 12:01, MM_Arc via mailmate wrote:


Have you tried starting MM from Terminal to see what you get.


To be clear, do this by opening a Terminal window and executing this 
command:


/Applications/MailMate.app/Contents/MacOS/MailMate

Charlie: Whether or not the above reveals anything, write me via “Help 
> Send Feedback” in order to debug this issue.


6015 is stable for us on quite a range of MacOS’s so something might 
be lurking in the dark on your side.


That's good to know.

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Re: [MlMt] There's a NEW official Test Version (6015)

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 23 Dec 2023, at 10:15, mailmate--- via mailmate wrote:


The built-in updater does not allow me to get r61015, it reports


 5673 is the latest version available. You have version 6014.


You need to hold down ⌥ when clicking “Check Now” in the Software 
Update preferences pane to look for test releases. The r6015 release is 
the first one on that branch for quite some time. Before that, it was 
only possible to get the cutting edge releases by directly downloading 
them from the server. This was intentional since some users had 
persistent issues with some of the (major) changes/optimizations I had 
done a while ago.


I expect more "regular" test releases now and hopefully also a beta 
release soon. (Well, not much will happen in the next few days.)



On 22 Dec 2023, at 21:03, Bill Cole wrote:

This is possibly just Benny getting tired of pointing people at the 
various not-yet-test builds, but the built-in updater will now get 
you r6015, which has been stable for me on exactly one Big Sur 
machine for about an hour. The previous few builds have been stable 
*for me* for a combined ~2 weeks without MM crashing or behaving in 
grossly poor ways.


That's good to know. Based on the crash reports sent by MailMate itself, 
it appears to be quite stable (I've only received 1 crash report).


And I *THINK* that the superannuated breakage in layout preservation 
may have been finally gone away.


I'm afraid it might just be more rare :)

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Re: [MlMt] From "XXX via mailmate"

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 20 Dec 2023, at 4:55, Quinn Comendant via mailmate wrote:

> On 19 Dec 2023, at 16:06, Bill Cole wrote:
>
>> Mailman modifies the "From" header of messages sent from domains which would 
>> otherwise be widely rejected […]
>> I won't try to pick apart the precise details for this list. Perhaps Benny 
>> can explain the specific rules.
>
> Mailman checks the DMARC policy published to the DNS TXT records of the 
> domain in the "From" header of the original message. If the policy is 
> 'p=reject' or 'p=quarantine', Mailman may modify the "From" header to use the 
> list's email address or the server's hostname to prevent rejection due to 
> DMARC, SPF, or DKIM checks.

Bill and Quinn are correct. The “via” is a workaround for DMARC-issues with the 
mailing list. This is one of those subjects where I feel like I have to start 
over every time I want to understand the details of what's going on ;-)

> It doesn't treat all senders the same because some people self-host their 
> email domain and don't use DKIM or SPF.

Ironically, the mailing list server for MailMate is self-hosted (by me) and it 
has only been using SPF. This seems to have been a serious problem with Gmail 
addresses (I think many/most of them have been thrown off the list by MailMan 
by now).

Hopefully, the changes I've made today (on the server) means that DKIM will 
work going forward. That should make Google happy: 
https://blog.google/products/gmail/gmail-security-authentication-spam-protection/

This will NOT solve the problem which makes the use of “via” necessary for some 
correspondents. If I understand it correctly then a standard solution does 
exist now, but it's not a high priority for me to make that work: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authenticated_Received_Chain

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Re: [MlMt] Archive and Trash not syncing on a fresh install

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 17 Dec 2023, at 12:26, Claudio Ruiz wrote:

I got a new computer and installed Mailmate as usual. After connecting 
the email accounts I have on Fastmail, I realized that when I Archive 
an email it’s gone from the Inbox in Mailmate, but nothing happens 
on the server. When I try to Trash a message, is gone on my Inbox in 
Mailmate, but is still there on the inbox on the server.


First, expand all mailboxes in the account under Sources in the mailbox 
list. Make sure everything is online. If there has been any persistent 
problems, some individual mailboxes might have been taken offline 
(preventing full synchronization).


If this doesn't help, write me via “Help > Send Feedback”.


I’m using Version 1.13.2 (5673)


You might also want to try the latest upload of MailMate. It appears to 
be quite stable. Feedback is welcome: 
[MailMate_r6014.tbz](https://updates.mailmate-app.com/archives/MailMate_r6014.tbz)


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Re: [MlMt] Blocked images

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 4 Dec 2023, at 16:13, William Allen wrote:

I appreciate the fact that MM blocks the images embedded in emails 
since that is obviously a privacy concern. I also appreciate the fact 
that I can click on an image from a trusted correspondent to see it. 
My issue is that in newsletters that I get from certain trusted 
sources I can’t see the images at all. This isn’t true of all, so 
it isn’t that they’re all blocked but some are that I’d like to 
have access to. Any ideas?


It's likely because MailMate fails to detect these images within the 
HTML (there is a ridiculous number of ways to include images in HTML). 
Whenever this happens then the images are *not* fetched (otherwise this 
would be a way to circumvent the image blocking in MailMate).


The latest upload “fixes” an issue with emails using a deprecated 
HTML attribute to display images (reported by another user). If this 
doesn't help in your case then see if you can find an example email to 
send me via “Help > Send Feedback”.


Here's a direct download for testing: 
[MailMate_r6009.tbz](http://updates.mailmate-app.com/archives/MailMate_r6009.tbz)


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Re: [MlMt] Images not downloaded from Zillow - Mailmate bug?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 27 Nov 2023, at 16:30, Warren Gray via mailmate wrote:

> Really strange.  Checked now, clicked on Zillow's email, and saw the images 
> (even without clicking to download the images).  Went down to another email 
> from Zillow, saw the images (without clicking to download them).

This is likely because of caching of images (because the same ones were used in 
a different email).

> Went to another one, couldn't view them.  Clicked to download the images, 
> still couldn't view them.  Went back up to the previous email I could see the 
> images on, and they're gone again.  Clicked to download, still couldn't see 
> them.  I'm stumped.

I suspect the problem might be that it's very slow for MailMate to fetch these 
images and I think there's little or no feedback from MailMate revealing that.

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Re: [MlMt] Mailmate crash r5999

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 27 Nov 2023, at 13:55, Henry Seiden wrote:

**Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. Neither Received Mail NOR Sent Mail 
sounds work for me in r6002. Was also reported by others in the Users 
email thread. No sound**.


Ok, sorry I haven't looked into the entire thread. This might also have 
been tried:


1. Make sure that “Play user interface sound effects” is enabled in 
system settings. It's in the Sound preferences pane.


2. Make sure sounds for notifications are allowed for MailMate in the 
Notifications system preferences pane.


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Re: [MlMt] Images not downloaded from Zillow - Mailmate bug?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 24 Nov 2023, at 13:47, Warren Gray via mailmate wrote:

> Hello.  Even though I select to download the images in an email from Zillow, 
> they never appear.  Every other website is fine.  Anyone else noticed this?  
> Seems like a bug in mailmate?   My other email apps display the images just 
> fine.

Use “Help > Send Feedback” in MailMate and then drag an example email into the 
composer. It sounds like it should be a reproducible issue.

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Re: [MlMt] Mailmate crash r5999

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 26 Nov 2023, at 17:54, Henry Seiden wrote:

Well, OK. But if you’d like to know I found what had happened to 
cause the crash, I think. I had retitled the “Inbox” folder to 
“All Inboxes”.


That causes crashes as far back as r5997. The rename is allowed, but 
for some reason the next time the inboxes are clicked, boom! The crash 
occurs. Since, I simply reloaded my previous settings and all seems to 
work OK in r5997.


I tried reproducing this, but without any luck. Make sure you have 
enabled sending crash reports in the Software Update preferences pane IF 
you haven't done so already. Based on some anonymous reports received 
for r5997 recently I have changed some code to work around an issue. 
This might be the one you were experiencing.


Somewhat related, the only crash reports (sent automatically) for r6002 
is an issue which should be fixed in r6003. In other words, r6002 
*seems* to be quite stable now.


However, cannot gather the logs even when Activity Viewer is open, so 
the log you requested is NOT attached.


I was asking for crash reports which should be available in Apple's 
Console app. The Activity Viewer is only for server logs and is likely 
not related to this issue.


Don’t know why this occurs, but remember seeing before (I”m on 
5997 now). Should I try 6002 to see if that behaves differently?


Wait for r6003 later today and then let me know if you get more crashes 
(maybe via Help > Send Feedback) unless you think it's an issue of 
general interest.


(I'm currently prioritizing crash reports and performance issues. I know 
I'm also receiving other reports/questions/requests, but I simply cannot 
reply to everything.)


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Re: [MlMt] Mailmate crash r5999

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 26 Nov 2023, at 13:02, Henry Seiden wrote:

> I was reverting back to the above version after a problem with the latest 
> version (experimental) 6002 when I started getting complete crashes of the 
> application. Reverting back to this version seemed to fix it. Then the 
> crashes started again. Noversion will load now. Wondering if replacing the 
> MailMate (com.freron.mailmate) cache folder in Library>Caches or removing it 
> completely is the way to restore the app start up without fully removing all 
> of the app and its settings.

Removing the cache folder will most likely not help, but it's possible to not 
start completely over, that is, to keep all settings.

First, send me a crash report using “Help > Send Feedback“ and I'll see if it's 
something I can quickly fix at my end.

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Re: [MlMt] Why do I get a skinny window?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 15 Sep 2023, at 21:34, Steve Mayer wrote:

> I can definitely say that it was not in r5984 nor r5983.  In fact r5985 was 
> the first time I’ve seen this behavior as I use that feature all the time.

That makes sense. Ironically, the problem was that MailMate is now much better 
at tracking which mailboxes are needed, but it wrongly determined that it no 
longer needed the dynamically computed content of a submailbox if it had not 
been recently displayed.

(Implementation-wise, the submailboxes feature is still quite a mess, but for 
now I'm resisting an urge to re-implement it.)

>> I'll remove the update until I've had time to look into it. Sorry about the 
>> inconvenience.

I believe this particular issue is now fixed in r5986.

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Re: [MlMt] Why do I get a skinny window?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 15 Sep 2023, at 16:27, Steve Mayer via mailmate wrote:

> I can verify this behavior as well with r5985.  R5984 didn’t exhibit this 
> behavior.

I can reproduce this issue. In fact, it seems to be a very general issue. I'm 
not sure how I missed it or when I introduced the issue.

I'll remove the update until I've had time to look into it. Sorry about the 
inconvenience.

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Re: [MlMt] Why do I get a skinny window?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 15 Sep 2023, at 11:45, Annamarie Pluhar wrote:

It’s annoying. The email message is skinny. Here is [link to 
screenshot.](https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/6fgwxwcob0367rt3g2r42/Screenshot-2023-09-15-at-5.40.30-AM.png?rlkey=jsp71knw6f757gnf5pn8wnk4e=0).


This happens when I reboot my computer and start up MM. Any ideas how 
to change this?


But it doesn't happen if you just quit and relaunch MailMate itself? 
(Seems unlikely that a reboot would be necessary to reproduce it.)


In any case, could you try and see if it also happens with the latest 
upload of MailMate: 
http://updates.mailmate-app.com/archives/MailMate_r5985.tbz


If it's still reproducible then write me via Help > Send Feedback an 
we'll debug it together.


(Some users still have a crashing issue with r5984. I don't think that 
is fixed yet, but hopefully I'll figure it out next week. Other than 
that, I believe it's pretty stable.)


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Re: [MlMt] Getting r5978

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 3 Sep 2023, at 15:34, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:

> On 3 Sep 2023, at 15:27, Eric Sharakan via mailmate wrote:
>
>> Hi Benny (and others), I'm currently running r5975 successfully.  I've 
>> noticed a couple minor issues, which I've reported via the 'Send 
>> Feedback...' menu item.  Benny, do you want us to report on issues we find 
>> on these experimental builds, or would it be better if we wait until you 
>> release an official test build before providing feedback?
>
> Right now, it's better to wait if it's related to issues like crashes, wrong 
> messages being shown, and similar. I've already changed a lot and I'm pretty 
> deep down the internals of MailMate right now and behavior is very likely to 
> change.
>
> Any issues which persist with the next update will naturally have my interest.

There's a r5980 upload now. I don't think this will fix the issue Bill reported 
though. That one might be related to macOS 11 (and possibly earlier releases), 
but I don't know yet. I'll contact Bill off list.

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Re: [MlMt] Heads up: r5979 crashes on startup for me...

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 5 Sep 2023, at 22:39, Bill Cole wrote:

> On 2023-09-05 at 16:05:38 UTC-0400 (Tue, 05 Sep 2023 14:05:38 -0600)
> Steve Mayer via mailmate 
> is rumored to have said:
>
>> Just a heads up that r5979 will not even start up for me. Crashes while 
>> trying to open the app.
>
> Same here. Tried on 2 different Big Sur machines. Starting from a shell shows 
> a segfault instantly, without any sort of message from MM. Unclear whether 
> any reports were sent.
>
>> I rolled back to r5978 and all is working as expected.
>
> Same here.

Thanks, I've removed the upload. Based on (most of) the crash reports received 
I can reproduce the main issue. It's related to using the “Bold font for unread 
messages” setting. Since it's reproducible I'll also be able to fix it. (There 
might also be other triggers for this bug.)

Sorry about the inconvenience.

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Re: [MlMt] Getting r5978

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 3 Sep 2023, at 15:27, Eric Sharakan via mailmate wrote:

> Hi Benny (and others), I'm currently running r5975 successfully.  I've 
> noticed a couple minor issues, which I've reported via the 'Send Feedback...' 
> menu item.  Benny, do you want us to report on issues we find on these 
> experimental builds, or would it be better if we wait until you release an 
> official test build before providing feedback?

Right now, it's better to wait if it's related to issues like crashes, wrong 
messages being shown, and similar. I've already changed a lot and I'm pretty 
deep down the internals of MailMate right now and behavior is very likely to 
change.

Any issues which persist with the next update will naturally have my interest.

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Re: [MlMt] Getting r5978

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 3 Sep 2023, at 12:47, Charlie Clark wrote:

> That's because Benny considers these releases too buggy even for tests.

Just a quick update on this. This is still true, and I'm working hard to get 
back to something usable. Right now, my own build of MailMate is even worse 
than r5978. Some times, it is necessary to break things completely in order to 
properly fix them. I'm sorry it's taking a lot longer than anticipated, but I 
promise the end result will be an improvement.

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Re: [MlMt] r5971 Update

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 24 Aug 2023, at 23:54, Scott wrote:

> Just a heads up - I'm one of the people who has extremely regular crashes and 
> 5974 crashes every time I try to send email, without fail.

I've removed the upload until I've had a chance to review the issue(s). I'll 
never learn not to upload and then go to bed :)

(Obviously, sending works for me.)

> Data sent along, Benny, but, just wanted to let others know.

Thanks for that!!

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Re: [MlMt] r5971 Update

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 24 Aug 2023, at 21:08, Matt wrote:

Is there a reason why r5971 is not available through the standard 
option-click on "Check Now" for test/alpha releases?


The r5971 release is known to have at least one frequent crash issue (at 
least for some users), but in general recent releases have been more 
likely to be unstable compared to older test releases. Ironically, this 
is because of major code changes which have helped fix numerous long 
standing issues. It's just taking some time to get to a point where I 
believe that the latest builds are sufficiently robust.


I've just uploaded 
[MailMate_r5974.tbz](http://updates.mailmate-app.com/archives/MailMate_r5974.tbz). 
I welcome users to test this -- in particular if these users had issues 
with r5971. Then we'll see if it's sufficiently stable for me to make it 
a proper test release -- and then get back into a more frequent release 
cycle.


(Most changes have been related to the main window and a rewrite of the 
message list.)


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Re: [MlMt] 5969?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 13 Jul 2023, at 20:26, Bill Cole wrote:

> I've tried each of the not-even-test-versions 5965-5970 currently visible in 
> the  'archives' directory and all crash on launch on Big Sur.

Just for the record, I believe this particular issue will be fixed in the next 
update.

But I have crash reports from another user which are unrelated to the above.

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Re: [MlMt] Sending

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 10 Jul 2023, at 18:24, Matthias Schmidt via mailmate wrote:

I’m using the last built (5965) and noticed, sending an email takes 
much more time than before.


I had this issue myself (related to using port 465). I believe it's 
fixed in 
[MailMate_r5970.tbz](http://updates.mailmate-app.com/archives/MailMate_r5970.tbz), 
but this is part of code which really needs a complete rewrite (I won't 
do that soon though). It's a mess of workarounds for buggy/unexpected 
behavior of various servers.


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Re: [MlMt] 5969?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 13 Jul 2023, at 3:44, Personal wrote:

I don’t know…. Benny did say that he was disconnecting 5465 from 
5464 so we couldn’t auto-update because 5465 was super-experimental. 
 So I guess I’m asking whether it’s now stable enough that we 
should manually ‘jump’ ….


Well, I got some crash reports for r5969 -- all of them the same issue. 
It's not one I can reproduce, but I believe it is fixed in r5970. Going 
back, the r5965 release included a major rewrite of the message list and 
a (somewhat more limited) rewrite was done for the mailbox list in 
r5969. More importantly, r5969+ includes a fix for a long standing issue 
in test releases which some users experienced relatively frequently.


I welcome users to try out 
[MailMate_r5970.tbz](http://updates.mailmate-app.com/archives/MailMate_r5970.tbz) 
and if there are no major issues then I'll make it a test release.


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[MlMt] Mailing list software downtime

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

Hi,

just for the record, it appears the mailing list software used for this list 
was not running properly the past week or so. Sorry about the inconvenience! 
(I'll see if I can figure out why this happened.)

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Re: [MlMt] Is Benny Ok?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 24 May 2023, at 16:08, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:

The new better (cleaner/robust/faster?) implementation means that I'll 
now be able to, finally, add the option of a single column message 
list. This part is not fully implemented yet, but I believe I'm 
relatively close to being able to release a crude first shot at it.


This first shot is now available as a direct download only: 
[MailMate_r5965.tbz](https://updates.mailmate-app.com/archives/MailMate_r5965.tbz)


It's a major update (with respect to code changes) and I'm a bit worried 
about the number of bugs possibly introduced (write me via “Help > 
Send Feedback”). The message list is almost completely rewritten even 
though it should essentially look the same as before.


It does, experimentally, support a single column mode. This is a bit 
cumbersome to try out for now though. You'll have to enable the new 
“Standard Single Column” and then disable the other columns, but 
this should then work well in the Widescreen layout. I'd also recommend 
disabling the alternate row coloring option in the Viewer preferences 
pane.


Some very low level hints below for those who love tinkering with things 
while also being willing to break them.


---

There's a new settings file which is mostly identical to the one used by 
the old message list. It's located here:


MailMate.app/Contents/Resources/MmMessageListView/outlineColumns.plist

This can be extended by creating this path and file:

	/Users//Library/Application 
Support/MailMate/Resources/MmMessageListView/outlineColumns.plist


Example content could then be (this is identical to the current 
default):


```
{
columns =
{
mycustomcolumn = {
title = "Custom Single Column";
type = "multivalue";
sortKey = "#date-received";
minimumWidth = 200;

layout = {
leftAligned = (
	( { columnKey = "read"; }, { columnKey = "security"; }, { columnKey 
= "correspondent"; /*minimumWidth = 200.0;*/ }, ),
	( { columnKey = "flag"; }, { columnKey = "short_tags"; }, { 
columnKey = "subject"; }, ),

);
rightAligned = (
( { columnKey = "date"; }, ),
( { columnKey = "size"; }, { columnKey = 
"attachments"; }, ),
);
};
};
};
}
```

The column keys are used to “reuse” the values defined for other 
columns. It's also possible to have inline formatting of other values, 
but I haven't really tested that.


There's also another new settings file:

MailMate.app/Contents/Resources/MmMessageListView/rowActions.plist

This can be copied and then altered in the following location:

	/Users//Library/Application 
Support/MailMate/Resources/MmMessageListView/rowActions.plist


This will allow custom swiping actions to be defined. Note that these 
are currently only available multi-value columns. (I guess that could be 
optional.)


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Re: [MlMt] Is Benny Ok?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 24 May 2023, at 15:09, Chay Wesley wrote:

> I haven't seen any communications from Benny in about two months.  Does 
> anyone have any news?  I hope he is well.

I'm ok :) There's been a lot of, let's say, “family activity” the past few 
months and I've been less active on email correspondence (even more than usual) 
and bug-hunting/fixing since this often requires quick forth and back 
communication.

But this does not mean I haven't been working. Most of that work has gone into 
an almost complete rewrite of the message list in MailMate which is one of the 
big items on my todo list. An awful lot of this work isn't really visible since 
it's related to how it's implemented and not what it can do, but it was still 
important work :)

The new better (cleaner/robust/faster?) implementation means that I'll now be 
able to, finally, add the option of a single column message list. This part is 
not fully implemented yet, but I believe I'm relatively close to being able to 
release a crude first shot at it.

All this just to let you know that I'm ok and I'll do my best to get back to 
emailing as well :)

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Re: [MlMt] disabling gifs in received mail

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 21 Mar 2023, at 20:06, Shoshanna Green wrote:

> On 21 Mar 2023, at 14:55, Glenn Parker wrote:
>
>> If you don’t mind modifying the original message slightly, you can have 
>> MailMate remove the annoying GIF attachment directly.
>
> I'd be fine with that, but it's not an attachment, or at least MailMate 
> doesn't see it as one. When I start a reply to the offending message, so that 
> all HTML etc is stripped and I can see what's going on, the GIF shows up as

It might show up as an attachment if you switch to plain text using “View > 
Message Body Parts”. This could also, by itself, be a way to stop it from being 
displayed. MailMate should remember this for this particular message (locally).

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Re: [MlMt] Keyboard shortcut to upgrade to pre-release not working

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 21 Mar 2023, at 13:03, Jolin Warren wrote:

Late to the party, but I’m pretty sure this is the reason. I’m on 
r5950 and checking for a new Test Build tells me I’m on the latest 
one. Benny said in an earlier email that he hasn’t put anything 
newer into the test build release stream because of several crashing 
bugs (maybe now resolved?). Chris, since you’re ahead of the 
‘latest’ Test Build, I’m not surprised it’s offering to 
downgrade you. This will probably be the case until something newer is 
released into the Test Build release stream.


For the record, this is correct. The latest test release is r5950. Some 
of the later download-only releases have been pretty buggy, but I 
believe the worst known issues are fixed now (and some old issues as 
well). I welcome anyone to download the latest one, but I'll hold it 
back from the test release branch until Friday since I cannot deal with 
any urgent issues before that. Here it is: 
[MailMate_r5960.tbz](https://updates.mailmate-app.com/archives/MailMate_r5960.tbz)


The not very interesting release notes are 
[here](https://updates.mailmate-app.com/release_notes_archive/MailMate_r5960.html).


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Re: [MlMt] white numbers in menu bar counter

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 17 Mar 2023, at 18:10, Bill Cole wrote:

You should have received another one by now. Here's what I got running 
by hand:

[...]
Fatal: Non-unique identifier used for callback 
(imap_mailbox_t:Archives)

Abort trap: 6


Thanks Bill. I believe this one is now fixed in the latest upload: 
[MailMate_r5958.tbz](http://updates.mailmate-app.com/archives/MailMate_r5958.tbz)


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Re: [MlMt] white numbers in menu bar counter

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 15 Mar 2023, at 17:22, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:


On 15 Mar 2023, at 16:45, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:

The latest upload appears to be stable for me, but I don't quite dare 
to make it a test release yet. Here's a direct link for those who do 
not mind if they have to report any crashes/regressions via “Help > 
Send Feedback”: 
[MailMate_r5955.tbz](https://updates.mailmate-app.com/archives/MailMate_r5955.tbz)


And I have already found an issue myself and another one reported. 
It's still a usable release, but some users might want to wait for the 
next update.


An update on this: A few more issues have been fixed and 
[MailMate_r5957.tbz](https://updates.mailmate-app.com/archives/MailMate_r5957.tbz) 
works for me (no crashes). That said, I just received a new report about 
a crash on startup with this release. This might or might not be an 
issue affecting users in general.


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Re: [MlMt] white numbers in menu bar counter

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 15 Mar 2023, at 16:45, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:

The latest upload appears to be stable for me, but I don't quite dare 
to make it a test release yet. Here's a direct link for those who do 
not mind if they have to report any crashes/regressions via “Help > 
Send Feedback”: 
[MailMate_r5955.tbz](http://updates.mailmate-app.com/archives/MailMate_r5955.tbz)


And I have already found an issue myself and another one reported. It's 
still a usable release, but some users might want to wait for the next 
update.


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Re: [MlMt] white numbers in menu bar counter

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 14 Mar 2023, at 15:37, Shoshanna Green wrote:

Just updated to 5950 on my iMac running Big Sur 11.7.2, and the number 
in my menu bar counter has turned white, which makes it impossible to 
read against the light gray of the menu bar itself. Is there a way to 
adjust this? (I tried all four counters; they have different color 
circles around the number, but the number is always white.)


Sorry! This is a bug introduced while fixing some other issues with the 
colored counters (menu bar and dock icon) “caused” by macOS updates.


I've fixed it and it should be more robust going forward since I use 
less custom code to do it. This is also why the colored background is 
gone. I'm now using a standard Apple component for the number and then I 
add the colored circle. This should ensure the counts have the same 
color as the other menu bar items (I believe this color depends on both 
light/dark mode and the background image used).


Recent test releases have been somewhat crashy because of a lot of low 
level improvements/rewrites/fixes which has revealed other bugs which 
used to be silently “ignored” (which is a bad thing). These bugs 
would crash MailMate instead making them much more likely to be fixed :)


The latest upload appears to be stable for me, but I don't quite dare to 
make it a test release yet. Here's a direct link for those who do not 
mind if they have to report any crashes/regressions via “Help > Send 
Feedback”: 
[MailMate_r5955.tbz](http://updates.mailmate-app.com/archives/MailMate_r5955.tbz)


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Re: [MlMt] Mailboxes view is empty after re-opening the main window

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 1 Mar 2023, at 10:34, Mike Brasch wrote:

since several test versions, the main window shows a blank mailboxes 
view when re-opening the main window. Then I open a new tab (and close 
the old one) and mailboxes are back again.


I tried it with a fresh mailboxes.plist, but same behaviour. I could 
try it with a complete fresh Mailmate configuration, but i wanted to 
ask here first before i start the work. :)


@Benny: Maybe I can help with debugging? Developer tools are 
installed.


Write me via “Help > Send Feedback”. I'm debugging multiple 
selection/display-related issues introduced in recent test releases. 
Right now, the latest release is actually a download-only version since 
I'm making very small changes mostly relevant for debugging purposes 
with specific users. You can try it out before writing me since it might 
be related: 
[MailMate_r5948.tbz](https://updates.mailmate-app.com/archives/MailMate_r5948.tbz)


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Re: [MlMt] r5943 is unstable

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 23 Feb 2023, at 9:42, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:

> I'm working on fixing the issue which is easily reproduced. It is triggered 
> by any kind of rule on any mailbox.

This issue should be fixed in r5944, but it's likely there will be other issues 
since r5943 was a major update. It's not all bad though. A lot of code has been 
improved/simplified and some issues (long standing issues) have been fixed and 
other issues will now be easier to fix/improve.

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Re: [MlMt] r5943 is unstable

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 23 Feb 2023, at 9:36, Charlie Clark wrote:

> just letting you that r5943, released 2022-02-22, is unstable and very likely 
> to crash.
> It was fine initially on my machine but then became unusable and Benny has 
> other reports of crashes. The advice, therefore, is to avoid this one!

I've removed it from the updater.

I'm working on fixing the issue which is easily reproduced. It is triggered by 
any kind of rule on any mailbox.

Sorry about the inconvenience.

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Re: [MlMt] R5923 memory leaks on M1 iMac/Ventura

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 23 Feb 2023, at 4:15, Scott wrote:

> Just a word of warning,  R5943 immediately crashes on launch for me, and will 
> not run.  2019 MacPro, Ventura.

Sorry about that! I've removed the release from the test branch until I've had 
time to look into this.

> I re-downloaded 5942 and am running that for now.

Good. I had another report about this issue. The user then went back to r5943 
which would then launch. I do not know why. Just wanted to mention it.

> Sending Benny the crash data now.

Thanks! It'll be a few hours before I have time to start debugging.

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Re: [MlMt] note or subject modification

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 5 Feb 2023, at 20:33, John Doherty via mailmate wrote:

> Yup, I never even noticed before that this option existed and can't really 
> think of why I would want to do it. But different strokes, etc. Maybe someone 
> has a reason that I haven't thought of.

I believe the typical use case is something like this: Whenever receiving an 
email with a non-descriptive subject header such as “Help” or “Bug” (it happens 
a lot) then the recipient might want to rewrite the subject to something which 
makes it easier to identify later on. This was more easily done in the POP3 
days since it would only affect local storage. With IMAP, the change needs to 
be synchronized with the server.

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Re: [MlMt] note or subject modification

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 5 Feb 2023, at 13:21, aisrael wrote:

> Thanks Benny, it works now. It says it has to be used with care : does it 
> mean that as long as the automation permission is granted, it may affect all 
> the message subjects?

No, a subject is only changed when you explicitly change it. The window shown 
explains exactly what happens when you change the subject of a message. It's 
not efficient and has several side effects. (A more general “note”-feature 
would preferably keep such changes separate from the original message, but this 
would then only work with MailMate and not with other email clients.)

The automation permission given to MailMate is quite general -- and it's 
actually only given to allow MailMate to use AppleScript to show the window 
with the text field. Ideally, this would not require such a permission (it was 
implemented before Apple introduced this type of permission).

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Re: [MlMt] note or subject modification

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 5 Feb 2023, at 11:57, aisrael wrote:

> I have done this, but the subject line remains imperturbable.
>
>> System Preferences->Security & Privacy->Privacy->Full Disk Access

It's the “Automation” permission which is needed.

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Re: [MlMt] URL no longer displays when hovering over a link

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 4 Feb 2023, at 15:03, Henry Seiden wrote:

I also noticed in this release (5939-5941) that sometimes the 
appearance of the link is in RED on a RED background, [sometimes BLACK 
letters on ORANGE background for me on some 
accounts](https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sm07rfnzw2njc7f/AAA2gwYRFahYsYzcaMsZnYpEa?dl=0) 
and other wise (more often) [BLACK letters on WHITE 
background](https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sm07rfnzw2njc7f/AAA2gwYRFahYsYzcaMsZnYpEa?dl=0) 
on others.


Is this an intended or an adjustable convention?


This is not currently configurable.

Orange: The URL of a blocked image

Red: It's either a link to an `http:` URL (which is *always* unsafe) or 
MailMate detected that the displayed text of a link looks like a URL, 
but the actual link does not match it.


Normal: https://freron.com
Red: http://freron.com

Normal: [https://example.com/good_url](https://example.com/good_url)
Red: [https://example.com/good_url](https://example.com/bad_url)

In other words, the colors are just there to help you notice potential 
security issues.


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Re: [MlMt] Showing raw message headers are blurry

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 29 Jan 2023, at 17:26, Chris Jones wrote:

> Glad it's not just me. Workaround for me right now is to copy text into Vim 
> so I can read until this this is fixed. I'm also using Ventura 13.2.

The blurry text issue should be fixed in r5941. It was triggered by a 
combination of large messages (messages with attachments) and at least one long 
line (only a problem on Ventura I think).

The fix has not made the raw mode faster for large messages which is still a 
problem.

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Re: [MlMt] URL no longer displays when hovering over a link

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 30 Dec 2022, at 1:08, John Cooper wrote:

> Randy Bush wrote (at 4:02 PM on Thursday, December 29, 2022):
>
>> url hints not working for me on 2020 ventura mbp 13 using Version 1.14
>
> I'm wondering if it's not a Ventura thing.

Should be fixed since r5939. Sorry about the delay, but I only recently 
switched to Ventura and this was in fact a Ventura-related issue (Apple changed 
something which implicitly meant that MailMate could not properly track when 
hovering over a URL).

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Re: [MlMt] Office365 And Oauth/MFA

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 3 Feb 2023, at 14:06, The Chucker wrote:

> I've been banging my head on the wall.  My org uses MFA and I can't get the 
> Microsoft popup window when adding an Office365 Account.  The app is approved 
> and working in the admin console so I don't think it's a permissions issue.  
> Tested with Thunderbird and it works fine.  I purchased the app after having 
> used Mailmate in the past.  I've lost A LOT of time trying to get this 
> working and am losing patience.  Any help here?  Why can't I just select 
> Oauth2 for outlook.office365.com?

First, try using the latest test release to make sure it's not related to a 
fixed issue: Hold down ⌥ when clicking “Check Now” in the Software Update 
preferences pane to get the latest test release (r5941 at the time of writing).

You should see the OAuth2 option for both IMAP and SMTP in the IMAP account 
editor and both should be enabled.

If you still cannot make it work then write me via “Help > Send Feedback” (use 
a different email client to the same address if you have no working accounts in 
MailMate).

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Re: [MlMt] Showing raw message headers are blurry

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 28 Jan 2023, at 19:25, Chris Jones wrote:

> With the latest beta of Mailmate (5937) and showing the raw message (headers) 
> the text is blurry and sometimes quite blurry (see link below). Any ideas of 
> how to fix this?

No, but the good news is that I've seen this issue myself. In my case, it is 
not triggered by all emails, but I've got one for which it appears to be 
reliably reproducible.

I've mostly switched to Ventura on my development machine now which hopefully 
means that Ventura-only related issues will be more likely to be fixed. 
(There's a couple of Ventura-related fixes in a test release today, but this 
does not include a fix for this particular issue.)

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Re: [MlMt] Pasting text results in image - how to fix?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 22 Jan 2023, at 0:42, Scott wrote:

> But MailMate will almost always turn pasted text into an image.

It'll only happen if the application putting it on the pasteboard added an 
image as well as text. I don't really know why any app would do that if it's 
really only text. (MailMate does not have any text to image conversion.)

That said, I recall changing something related to Office apps (at least Excel 
and Word), but I'm not sure it works in other cases. Please try and see if the 
latest beta behaves differently (r5937). If not, I'll revisit the issue (right 
now, I've forgotten the details :) ).

> I'm guessing there's extraneous information in the copied data which is 
> making MailMate assume I'm trying to paste binary content, perhaps.

From the perspective of MailMate, you really are pasting binary data (an image).

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Re: [MlMt] 5933: Dragging files into a folder => files are locked (immutable set)

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 7 Jan 2023, at 13:35, Robert M. Münch wrote:


I see this effect I think since I use 5933.


The change is in r5927 (November 10th, 2022).

I do exactly the same as in the past, but now is looks like files are 
somehow locked by MM. Checking the file attributes I see that the 
*Immutable* flag is set.


Is this a known problem? How to fix/workaround it?


I can see this developed into a very large thread. Someone found the 
workaround, but I repeat it here to make sure it's more easily found:


	defaults write com.freron.MailMate 
MmAttachmentsCacheImmutableStateDisabled -bool YES


But it's only to be used by users who understand that attachments are 
saved in a *temporary* location which can be deleted at any time. It 
just doesn't happen very often.


I can add that the change was motivated by a user working on a document 
for weeks (possibly hundreds of hours). The corresponding email was 
later deleted and MailMate cleaned up by also removing temporary files 
related to the email. Note that the cache is not part of a Time Machine 
backup. The file could not be salvaged.


I have some notes on how this behavior could be improved, but the 
quick/safest fix was to simply disallow it.


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Re: [MlMt] Can signature be customized by folder?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 24 Jan 2023, at 0:16, Robert Wall wrote:

I have messages for one area of my life relegated to a folder. Senders 
auto-funnel to that folder via rules, but it's all part of one main 
email account.


Is it possible for replies *to any message in that folder* to have a 
different email signature?


Signature preferences only allow you to restrict a signature to a 
specific set of *sending* addresses, but this is likely not what you 
need here.


But note that MailMate should learn your preference over time for each 
of these correspondents when you use the Signatures menu to select the 
signature. (That doesn't help if some of your correspondents are both 
inside and outside this folder.)


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Re: [MlMt] selectFirstMessageRow not working?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 14 Nov 2022, at 11:59, Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:


I have this in my keybinding:

`	  "N" = ("selectNextCountedMailbox:", "makeFirstResponder:", 
"mainOutline","selectFirstMessageRow:");	`


Anyone know if syntax for this might have changed in recent months?


The problem is that the selection of the mailbox is delayed a bit by 
MailMate which then results in the selection of the first message row to 
fail. This is a bug. I'll look into it.


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Re: [MlMt] Message actions dont reflect in online gmail mailbox

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 16 Nov 2022, at 8:32, Eelco Chaudron wrote:

> I’ve opened a ticket for this just in case, 
>  . But 
> for some reason it’s marked as spam :(

I've now explicitly marked you as a non-spammer, but I'm not quite sure this 
always works (for future tickets). Anyone experiencing this problem is welcome 
to write me via “Help > Send Feedback”. I do have a script running keeping an 
eye on the spam detection at lighthouse, but it's fine to give me a nudge by 
email if I don't react on critical issues.

I've also replied to the ticket. I believe you'll have to add yourself as a 
“watcher” of the ticket (to be notified of future comments). This is somehow 
removed when the ticket has been in the spam-state (which just makes it even 
more annoying).

I'll do my best to resolve the issue.

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Re: [MlMt] Setting a default zoom

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 4 Nov 2022, at 0:34, Rob Russell wrote:

> However, I must have missed the memo about how to make this the default or 
> persistent between messages.

This is intended for temporarily zooming.

> Or am I looking at this the wrong way?

For plain text messages, you can set a default (larger) font to be used, but 
you might just want to set a larger minimum font size in the Viewer preferences 
pane since this works for all emails (including HTML).

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Re: [MlMt] Stop doubleclick from opening mailbox?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 4 Nov 2022, at 16:33, Tracy Valleau wrote:

I looked, but can't find it. I'd like to stop double-clicking on a 
mailbox from performing "Edit mailbox..."


Can that be done?


	defaults write com.freron.MailMate MmMailboxDoubleClickDisabled -bool 
YES


I'll consider making this default behavior, but then I think there 
should at least be a default key binding to edit a mailbox. It's a bit 
like the Inspector in many apps (⌘I), but that one is already used by 
the composer window.


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Re: [MlMt] Latest normal release?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 6 Nov 2022, at 4:05, Sam Birch wrote:

> My guess would be that Benny has very high standards for stable releases?

I don't think my standards are very high, but on recent macOS releases I'm 
pretty sure the recent releases are much more stable for most users than the 
public release :)

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Re: [MlMt] Latest normal release?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 6 Nov 2022, at 2:47, leo wrote:


I just checked whether there’s a new release of MailMate.

I am on Rev 5853 which is from last year; there is a beta release 5926 
out which is from this year.


Technically, that's a test release. The current beta is r5918. There are 
3 types of releases: Public, beta, and test. Only public and beta are 
automatically detected/downloaded.


However when I check for „Normal releases“ MailMate tells me that 
I am even my version from 2021 is still _ahead_ of the Normal 
releases.


The most recent public release is r5673.

Why is MailMate very actively developed, but there are non new stable 
releases?


Short answer: I very much prefer to spend time developing MailMate.

Long and not very useful answer:

That's a very good question, but I don't really have a good answer. I'm 
to blame for this (as with all things related to MailMate). The starting 
point was major changes to the message view of MailMate which then 
cascaded into other parts of MailMate eventually making it very hard to 
make updates which would not break existing features for some users.


In general, I think the delay of public releases is mainly caused by how 
I generally (and not intentionally) prioritize my time:


1. Develop MailMate (fun).
2. Handle feedback about IMAP/SMTP server issues (not fun).
3. Handle feedback related to macOS updates (can be fun but surprisingly 
time consuming).

4. Answer/handle feedback about MailMate (somewhat fun).
5. Keep homepage/server/store up to date (rarely fun).
6. Make new public releases (rarely fun).
7. Market MailMate (never fun).
8. Make money (necessary).

Somehow there's always a few more things which need to be done before 
making a public release. That said, I will of course do my best to get a 
new public release out soon (r5673 is ridicously old), but at the same 
time I will also have to think about how to develop MailMate going 
forward (which includes how to make money). History shows that I much 
prefer incremental updates which rules out making money on major 
upgrades. (Note: I'm extremely happy for the support of the MailMate 
patrons without which MailMate would definitely no longer be developed 
at all.)


Note that there's no universally right or wrong way to do these things 
since any approach will have to be what works for me.


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Re: [MlMt] Keyboard shortcut for "Download images"?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 6 Nov 2022, at 2:40, leo wrote:

I block external images by default, but sometimes I download them via 
the _Download_ button in the message:


Is there a keyboard shortcut for this?


There are currently no menu items. It's on my todo. (I've also 
considered using ⌘L and ⌥⌘L as default shortcuts. Alternatively, 
no default shortcuts.)



Or can I bind one to "Download images"?


There used to be `loadImagesOnce:` for key bindings, but the new message 
view has two levels of blocking. I'll be adding something like the 
following to the manual pages:


Selector |  Action
-|
`downloadResources:` | Allow the external resources/images of the 
currently displayed message to be downloaded once (potentially allowing 
tracking)
`downloadAllResources:` | Works like `downloadResources:`, but this will 
also include any strictly blocked resources


These key bindings should work in recent test releases and would have 
the same functionality as any future menu items.


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Re: [MlMt] MacOS 13 Ventura

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 2 Sep 2022, at 18:02, Joseph P. Hillenburg wrote:

> Has Mailmate been tested on Ventura? Will a new build be necessary?

I did borrow a Ventura-capable machine a few weeks ago and then installed 
Ventura on an external disk to see if there were any major issues. It seems to 
work well, but I do welcome any bug reports (using the latest test release of 
MailMate).

My main development machine (MacBook Pro 2015) does not support Ventura. I am 
naturally considering an upgrade, but I seem to have very persistent FOBO (Fear 
of Better Options) when trying to make a decision.

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Re: [MlMt] Sign by default based on history not working

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 2 Sep 2022, at 9:25, Stephan Kleiber via mailmate wrote:

> This does not work for me. I have the option activated, yet I always have to 
> enable signing manually in the Composer window. Is there something I might be 
> doing wrong or can anyone reproduce the issue? I’m on build 5914 (but the 
> error is not new).

I don't have reports on this (I think), but I'll try to reproduce it by sending 
you a couple of messages off list. My own usage of signing/encryption is mostly 
explicit or related to debugging issues.

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Re: [MlMt] Spurious newlines in copied text

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 2 Sep 2022, at 9:07, Thomas Kahle wrote:

> For your convenience I entered some line breaks in the three lines above.  So 
> when you read this mail, try to copy the three lines above somewhere.  For me 
> the result is this:

I'm aware of this regression. Note that (at least for me), this only happens if 
MailMate displays a plain text message (MailMate generates the HTML only for 
viewing). For example, the HTML included in your email (HTML generated for 
sending) does not have this issue.

This has been an issue before and it's caused by my ongoing changes to how 
copy/paste works with HTML views. I messed up again with my most recent changes 
(while fixing other issues). Hopefully, I'll eventually get it right :)

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Re: [MlMt] Few missing e-mails in Protonmail account

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 23 Aug 2022, at 11:55, Tóth András wrote:

> There is an annoying error in MailMate: some of my Protonmail’s e-mails are 
> missing in my MM inbox. I tried to search it, but i didn’t found it. When i 
> sign it to the Protonmail web interface i already see those missing e-mails 
> in my PM inbox.
>
> Have you got any idea what is this issue? Or MailMate couldn’t handle 
> perfectly the Protonmail account?

My guess is that it's somehow related to the behavior of the Protonmail Bridge, 
but it's hard to say. If you can still reproduce it then we can try debugging 
it (off the mailing list).

> system info: i’m using MailMate 1.14 (5852) and Protonmail Bridge v2.2.2

You can try updating, but I don't think I've changed anything related to this: 
Hold down ⌥ when clicking “Check Now” in the Software Update preferences pane 
to get the latest test release.

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Re: [MlMt] Inline CSS Error

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 20 Aug 2022, at 2:24, Simon Kaplan wrote:

> Moral of the story:  Don’t use word to create HTML signatures!

That's definitely good advice, but you are still welcome to send me the failing 
HTML signature. I'd like to look into having better error handling since I'm 
sure you are not the only one who is going to have this problem.

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Re: [MlMt] MM crashes often on M1 macbook pro

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 19 Aug 2022, at 20:36, Eli Rotenberg wrote:

I tried the newer build that was available last week and found that 
although the original crashing during editing messages went away, 
currently it crashes completely randomly, and much more often, and 
after crash will then often  crash repeatedly on reloading the app, 
taking several retries to start before it will run again.  Currently 
it will not run after about 10 retries so I cannot confirm the build 
version, but I downloaded the latest public beta just now and it 
crases on loading.


Sorry to hear that! I would naturally like to debug this issue. I'm 
thinking it's likely related to your earlier issue. Also note that often 
“random” issues are related to synchronizing accounts. One way to 
test this is to launch MailMate after taking the machine offline.


Here's a link to the latest test release just in case it makes a 
difference: 
[MailMate_r5912.tbz](https://updates.mailmate-app.com/archives/MailMate_r5912.tbz)


I send a fraction of these crash reports to Apple, I don’t know if 
these are of use or not.


They certainly would be, but I'm not getting them (Apple only provides 
them to App Store developers).


You are welcome to send me one or more crash reports directly (you can 
use the sending address of this email).


is there a ‘factory reset’ I can perform to get mailmate running 
again?


That would be removing (or moving/renaming) the following folder:

/Users//Library/Application Support/MailMate/

If you rename it then it'll be possible to swap the folders later -- in 
case you have time to help me debug the issue.


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Re: [MlMt] Inline CSS Error

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 19 Aug 2022, at 1:42, Simon Kaplan wrote:

> In the last few versions of MM I’ve been getting the following error as I 
> compose:
>
> Warning: CSS inlining unexpectedly failed
> A JavaScript exception occurred
>
> And I get a bright orange header bar as I’m composing that says
>
> External command failed:  sanitize-html
>
> Any ideas, anyone?

The change in MailMate causing this is that MailMate now inlines CSS in your 
HTML signature before embedding it in the HTML of the message itself. This is 
actually MailMate trying to help you because a signature should not contain a 
stylesheet. (I've yet to see an example where someone did this on purpose. It's 
usually the result of using an entire HTML document as a signature.)

That said, there might still be a MailMate bug/issue since the inlining failed. 
You are welcome to send me your signature (off list) and I'll see if I can 
reproduce it. If I can then I'll look into possible workarounds or a more 
graceful way of failing.

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Re: [MlMt] Evernote bundle not working in v5895

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 17 Aug 2022, at 1:43, Antonio Leding wrote:

> Running BETA version v5895 on Monterey and trying to send a message to my 
> Evernote.  Tried both of the following and nothing is showing up in Evernote.
>
> Is anyone using this bundle with success especially with the same MM version?

I don't think so. It's on my list of bundles which have issues. If I remember 
correctly then the problem is that Evernote dropped AppleScript support and I'm 
not sure if there's an (easy) alternative. Maybe a URL scheme. You are welcome 
to look into this if you like :) If you can make something work from the 
command line (add items to Evernote) then it can likely be done in a bundle as 
well.

https://discussion.evernote.com/forums/topic/128826-restore-applescript-support-answer-not-yet-available/page/2/

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Re: [MlMt] Sending address no longer in "From" dropdown when composing

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 14 Aug 2022, at 3:15, Dibson T Hoffweiler wrote:

> I solved the issue.
>
> I looked through Application support and found the Identities.plist file.  
> The ‘emailAddresses’ field for the account was empty.  I hadn’t touched the 
> file before, so I’m not sure what happened there.  I set the field to the 
> address and it is now available to choose and correctly set based upon 
> context of recipient.

The crash did happen when opening the From popup and likely because the above 
had been cleared. But the clearing of this value would probably have happened 
at some other point, e.g., when editing the IMAP account settings (possibly to 
change something else). Let me know if this happens again and/or you figure out 
what triggered it.

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Re: [MlMt] MM crashes often on M1 macbook pro

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 15 Aug 2022, at 20:57, Glenn Parker wrote:

> No crashes on my M1 iMac here.
>
> You can hold down the option-key with the “MailMate” menu to access “Check 
> for Test Build”. This will offer you a quick upgrade to the latest build 
> (5910 as of today). There are some other non-critical issues with this build, 
> but it’s very stable.

For the record, there are now few known crash/hang issues with the test 
releases and I receive very few crash reports. I do have a couple of reported 
hanging issues. One seems to be related to a large number of accounts and the 
other possibly with writing very fast in the Composer. I have not yet been able 
to reproduce them.

(I'll continue my work on making the test release ready to be a public release.)

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Re: [MlMt] Link for viewing attachments

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 15 Aug 2022, at 20:49, Glenn Parker wrote:

> On 12 Aug 2022, at 15:04, Antonio Leding wrote:
>
>>> “What were you able to do with the older interface which you cannot do now?”
>>
>> Functionally, there is no change but UX wise, it is different.  It was nice 
>> to just click on the attachment filename and have it open as a preview 
>> without needing the app.  This function is now provided by clicking on the 
>> little eye on the far right.
>
> FWIW, you can also double-click on the attachment name to directly open the 
> document in the default app (instead of in preview mode, which is what the 
> “eye” icon provides).

Yes, the eye is the standard icon for QuickLook and it can also be triggered 
using ⌘Y (as in the Finder) or by hitting space if the attachment list is in 
focus.

(Somewhat related, the next update of MailMate fixes a few focus and toggling 
issues with QuickLook.)

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Re: [MlMt] mailmate Digest, Vol 137, Issue 10

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 14 Aug 2022, at 5:55, vendors...@yannalaw.com wrote:

I woke up to find all of my account sub mailboxes except for Junk, 
Deleted and Trash are empty! All of my mailboxes emptied and all of my 
mail which I have saved since 2000 and earlier have been deleted 
somehow since Friday night. How can I recover the folders and the mail 
that they should contain.


To make a backup of everything before proceeding, you should make a copy 
of the following folder before doing anything else:


/Users//Library/Application Support/MailMate/

It is the same location which will contain any previous state if you 
use, e.g., use Time Machine.


But again, don't do anything before we analyzed the issue.

Is there a way to backup and later restore these individual mailmate 
subfolders in each account.


First we need to figure out what happened. I'll write you off the 
mailing list for more details which might include somewhat personal 
details (account settings, etc.).


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Re: [MlMt] r5907 and Group Address completion [r5908?]

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 11 Aug 2022, at 20:09, Henry Seiden wrote:

> It looks like the Bundles preferences you mention is specific for Busy 
> Calendar Bundles.

You are right. My mistake. Nothing for BusyContacts in there.

> I’m not understanding if you mean we should immediately implement the command 
> using Terminal, connecting Busy Contacts’ data as you specify:
>  *“defaults write com.freron.MailMate MmDefaultAddressBook -string 
> com.busymac.busycontacts”*

Yes, this is the part that would give you View/Add for BusyContacts instead of 
Contacts. Sorry about the confusion.

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Re: [MlMt] Mail alert sound issue - v5895 on Monterey

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 12 Aug 2022, at 1:04, Antonio Leding wrote:

> Is anyone having an issue with the EM arrival alert sound not playing 
> properly with v5895 on Monterey?  I initially thought this was system wide 
> problem but my sound alerts work fine elsewhere so I think this is a MM issue…

Sounds now require notifications to allow sounds. Check your System Preferences 
▸ Notifications for MailMate.

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Re: [MlMt] Link for viewing attachments

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 12 Aug 2022, at 1:07, Antonio Leding wrote:

I recently upgraded to Monterey which necessitated a MM update to 
v5895.  In the new MM version, I see that attachments are no longer 
represented as links within messages.


I loved this feature so a couple questions here:

* Can this older behavior be enabled somehow?


No.


* If not, is this gone forever?


Yes.

What were you able to do with the older interface which you cannot do 
now? (The old one had many issues and few features.)


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Re: [MlMt] Multiple Emails per address in Busy Contacts [r5908]

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 11 Aug 2022, at 20:27, Henry Seiden wrote:

I implemented the command for Busy Contacts and it works well for a 
single contact address in Busy Contacts finding and showing all 
addresses for that record, even one “suggested by Siri”. Not sure 
how to control that one, though. Just select all the emails to use I 
suppose.


Now, how is that implemented (or what is intended when using this) in 
selecting multiple tagged items in Busy Contacts?


I don't think I understand the question.

In general, MailMate always uses Apple's Contacts interface (the 
Contacts framework and to some extend the older AddressBook framework). 
BusyContacts only comes into play when asking MailMate to view/edit a 
contact (for which it uses the `busycontacts:` URL scheme).


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Re: [MlMt] Message in GMail web interface not appearing in mailmate

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 12 Aug 2022, at 2:49, Dibson T Hoffweiler wrote:

> I’m new to the list.  I’ve been using mailmate a few years, and only recently 
> started using more features.  It’s been amazingly helpful for managing my 
> email.  Thank you, Benny, for such a fantastic piece of software.

Thanks for using it!

> I recently searched for a message from someone and it wasn’t coming up.  I 
> assumed I had bad search terms, or maybe that I misremembered it’s existence. 
>  I found the email on the GMail web app, and then tried searching again - 
> still couldn’t find it.  I then went into the sources view, which I assume 
> has all email from the gmail account, and sure enough the email isn’t there.  
> It’s a short thread: 2 messages from someone else, 1 from myself.  I can see 
> my sent message, but not the two from my correspondent.
>
> Anyone have any insight into this?  Or how to solve or further diagnose the 
> matter?

As noted elsewhere in this thread, Gmail (Gimap) is not IMAP. It's a bit like 
an unintentional (I assume) variant of the old "embrace, extend, and 
exterminate" policy of Microsoft except that the last step never happened (and 
hopefully never will).

The main problem is that it's impossible for an email client to just gracefully 
handle everything like the user would expect, because the email client doesn't 
know which mailboxes are really intended to be mailboxes and which are intended 
to be labels (tags in MailMate). Only the user knows.

I strongly recommend reading this manual page: 
https://manual.mailmate-app.com/account_setup#gmail

In general, I often see suggestions about re-adding accounts to MailMate. I do 
not recommend that. Most often it won't make a difference and it will 
definitely result in MailMate taking up more space for database index files.

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Re: [MlMt] r5907 and Group Address completion

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 29 Jul 2022, at 19:56, Harvey Leff wrote:

I agree with Henry, who wrote "we can ask Benny to fix Contacts flaws. 
Maybe we can ask for an interface to \[Busy 
Contacts\](www.busymac.com)".


A Mailmate-Busy Contacts linkage would be wonderful.


I haven't read the all of this thread, but MailMate does have support 
for Busy Contacts using bundles (see the Bundles preferences pane).


There's also some support (which I think still works) to make View/Add 
work directly with Busy Contacts:


	defaults write com.freron.MailMate MmDefaultAddressBook -string 
com.busymac.busycontacts


With respect to recent issues with groups in Contacts, I'd appreciate 
feedback if there are any issues with the latest test release (just 
write me directly off list). The previous issues were about 
missing/duplicate contacts when expanding groups.


The latest test release adds support for changing the email address of a 
recipient found in Contacts if it has multiple email addresses. This is 
in the context sensitive menu of each recipient. This new feature might 
also mean new bugs ;-)


The latest test release should be able to handle duplicate group names 
(in different accounts).


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Re: [MlMt] MailMate HTTP(S) requests when clicking URL within MM

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 3 Aug 2022, at 21:10, Joachim Tingvold via mailmate wrote:

> Whenever I click on a link in an email within MM, it's instantly opened in my 
> default browser. However, almost simultaneously, MM makes a request to the 
> URL i just clicked for no apparent reason (Little Snitch lets me know). The 
> request happens every time I click a link, even the same one multiple times 
> in a row.
>
> Is there a reason that MM does this request? How would I disable this 
> "feature"?

I don't have a workaround yet. It's an issue that was introduced with a macOS 
update (somewhere in the range of 12.3 and 12.5). For some reason, when 
MailMate uses NSWorkspace to open a URL, this triggers Apple code (I believe) 
to make a server request before passing it along to the browser. This is what 
triggers Little Snitch.

Right now I kind of consider it an Apple bug, but I might be missing something. 
I also welcome any technical insight anyone might happen to have on the issue 
(write me directly). I'm also interested in knowing if this also happens on 
Ventura.

There's also a ticket on the issue: 
https://freron.lighthouseapp.com/projects/58672/tickets/3062

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Re: [MlMt] r5907 and Group Address completion

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 22 Jul 2022, at 18:12, Glenn P. Parker wrote:

> I have also noticed some odd behavior with address group completion. For me, 
> a particular group of 10 addresses gets doubled (the entire group is 
> repeated) every time.
> However, a larger group of about 15 or so consistently expands correctly.

I'd just like to confirm that some issues with groups are still unresolved. 
Anyone with a simple reproducible case which can be shared with me is welcome 
to write me off list. Ideally, two contacts in a single group which misbehaves 
in any way. It must be with the latest test release (since some bugs have been 
fixed). Hold down ⌥ when clicking “Check Now” in the Software Update 
preferences pane to get the latest test release.

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Re: [MlMt] r5907 and Group Address completion

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 21 Jul 2022, at 17:12, Edward Thome wrote:

> Has anyone else noticed this issue on r5907.
> I have a group address for all members of my department, and it used to 
> complete to include all 29 members. Now it only shows a small number.

Most of the code related to MailMate expanding groups has changed recently and 
bugs are therefore quite likely (on any macOS release).

Maybe you could create a very simple group for which only 1 of 2 contacts are 
found by MailMate. Then send me the two contacts off list and I'll hopefully be 
able to reproduce it.

> On a computer running OS X 10.15 it shows about 1/3 of them. On a computer 
> running OS X 13 public beta it only shows 1/6 of them.

This difference does sound very strange, but maybe it's related to some random 
nature of the bug causing this.

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Re: [MlMt] Counter format syntax

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 16 Jul 2022, at 14:44, David Wainberg wrote:

One thing I want to fix is the format of the information behind a 
counter dropdown. The documentation of the format syntax is pretty 
sparse - https://manual.mailmate-app.com/format_string_syntax.html - 
and I'm having trouble figuring it out.


Very understandable.

Specifically, what I want to do at the moment is to shorten and fix 
the length of the subject display, since by default it is variable, 
and some email subjects are quite long. The size and positioning of 
the dropdown adjusts accordingly, which I find undesirable.


That could be something like this (using regular expressions):

${subject/(.{,10})(.+)?/$1(?2:…)/}

That looks pretty menacing, but it's the same syntax as provided by some 
text editors when doing search/replace. The MailMate syntax is identical 
to the one used by TextMate. That means the documentation found 
[here](https://macromates.com/manual/en/regular_expressions#conditional_insertions) 
is also useful for MailMate (and the example is more advanced than the 
one provided here).


To elaborate, this is the format string variant used above:

${«var»/«regexp»/«format»/«options»}

The `var` is `subject`, but this could be any email header (or a subpart 
of a header).


The `regexp` is:

(.{,10})(.+)?

It matches 10 characters and then the rest in 2 different capture 
variables.


The `format` used is then:

$1(?2:…)

Which simply uses the (up to) 10 characters in the first capture and 
then adds the ellipsis if and only if the second capture contains 
anything.



Even if that's not doable, I'd like to play with the format.

I've searched the list and haven't found anything. Can anyone point me 
to more docs or examples I can crib from?


The above isn't much, but maybe it'll help a bit.

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Re: [MlMt] Recent 1.14 Test Build 5903 and Contacts integration

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 11 Jul 2022, at 17:04, Henry Seiden wrote:

> Thank you sir. Please advise on both issues.

I believe this works again in r5905. If not, write me off list for debugging.

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Re: [MlMt] Recent 1.14 Test Build 5903 and Contacts integration

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 11 Jul 2022, at 13:33, Henry Seiden wrote:

> So, is this the Apple bug in Contacts that you referred to in your notes 
> about r5903?

No, that's not the same issue. That one was about so-called smart groups in 
Contacts.

I'll look into the code handling matches on company name. It did change as part 
of changes to move from the Address Book framework to the Contacts framework 
(which feels a bit wasted now given the lack of support of several features 
provided by the old Address Book framework).

(I also have a report about groups in general not working for a user.)


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Re: [MlMt] 5900 first blush...

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 24 Jun 2022, at 14:56, Henry Seiden wrote:

> Soon to experiment with it on Ventura Public Beta 2.

Let me know if you have any issues (maybe off the mailing list). I cannot 
easily test this myself because my development machine is a MacBook Pro 2015 
which is not on the list of supported machines :(

> Is there a version for iPad/iPhone?

Sorry, but no.

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