Re: Definition list as image caption
Am 25.06.2012 um 23:18 schrieb John MacFarlane fiddlosop...@gmail.com: Pandoc has for some time supported the following convention. A paragraph containing just an image (and nothing else) gets treated as a figure, with the alt text as the caption. (If you don't want this, you can defeat it by including a nonbreaking space or empty comment in the paragraph alongside the image. I think the alt-text should be used to describe what's on the image, like a monkey with a banana in his hand so the blind and the markdown reader knows what is on the image. The image caption however could say someting like Male monkey *frank* in his new area: when kept in nature-like areas, the monkeys show much fewer stress symptoms. In my opinion the title tag of the img element should be thrown away and be replaced by a structure like this: (as it should be now): figure img alt='a monkey with a banana' title='Male monkey *frank* in his new area' / img alt='graph showing stress levels of male monkeys in blue and those of female in red as well as a pictogram of an aggressive monkey' title='blood levels of cortisol in male and female monkeys t different times of the day in nature-like areas' / figcaptionwhen kept in nature-like areas, the monkeys show much fewer stress symptoms/figcaption /figure (as i think it should be in the future): figure picimg alt='a monkey with a banana'/pictitleMale monkey *frank* in his new area/pictitle/pic picimg alt='graph showing stress levels of male monkeys in blue and those of female in red as well as a pictogram of an aggressive monkey'pictitleblood levels of cortisol in male and female monkeys t different times of the day in nature-like areas/pictitle/pic figcaptionwhen kept in nature-like areas, the monkeys show much fewer stress symptoms/figcaption /figure ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Definition list as image caption
MultiMarkdown does the same sort of thing in version 3. F- On Jun 25, 2012, at 5:18 PM, John MacFarlane wrote: Pandoc has for some time supported the following convention. A paragraph containing just an image (and nothing else) gets treated as a figure, with the alt text as the caption. (If you don't want this, you can defeat it by including a nonbreaking space or empty comment in the paragraph alongside the image.) One advantage of this extension is that it degrades well when you process it with standard markdown processors. Pandoc also supports a syntax for captioning tables, described here: http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/README.html#tables John +++ Lou Quillio [Jun 22 12 17:38 ]: On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 4:00 AM, Jakob ja...@gmx.at wrote: recently though about image captions, then i realized that this could be achiebed by Markdown Extra's definition list feature:  : here goes the *caption* What do you think? For reference, here's Russ Weakly in 2004: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/articles/definition/ LQ -- Lou Quillio http://quillio.com/ ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss -- Fletcher T. Penney fletc...@fletcherpenney.net smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Definition list as image caption
Beside, before we add captions to images, perhaps we could add captions to tables. I know MultiMarkdown already has that, but not PHP Markdown Extra. Once we have that we could find a similar way to add caption to various other things which would wrap the said thing in a figure element. In short, it should be pretty much the same syntax for both. I totally agree! But why not use the same syntax?: ! caption of the table | user | password | |---|--| | frank | 123456 | | mike | mypass | I think it should be posisible to use tables with captions inside of a figure element: Therefore we need a different syntax for the table caption. Wikipedia uses `|+ caption` [1], so I think we could use similar syntax: ``` |+ caption align=top+| | user | password | |---|| | frank | 123456 | | mike | mypass | ``` ``` | user | password | |---|| | frank | 123456 | | mike | mypass | |+ caption align=bottom +| ``` ``` | caption align=right ++| | user | password | |---|| | frank | 123456 | | mike | mypass | ``` ``` |++ caption align=left | | user | password | |---|| | frank | 123456 | | mike | mypass | ``` [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Table_caption -- NEU: FreePhone 3-fach-Flat mit kostenlosem Smartphone! Jetzt informieren: http://mobile.1und1.de/?ac=OM.PW.PW003K20328T7073a ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Definition list as image caption
Hi all,
at all, I think there is an wide need for captions and most solutions
are mostly handmade spans in paragraphs.
Am 22.06.2012 22:13, schrieb Jakob:
That's why I changed my mind, that it would be better to use a **new**
syntax with the exclamation mark instead of the colon, then there
would be no ambiguity.
Could we use the content of the title tag, or an extra caption field
inside the img-markdown instead?
For the title tag there is already a css solution with [:after][1]
It could be a little bit confusing if more [img-tags][2] which will be
integrated some times.
greetz
klml
[1]:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3850156/add-title-attribute-on-next-line-via-after
[2]: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_img.asp
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Re: Definition list as image caption
Generated content (:after) would be awkward for this purpose. It is not
selectable in many browsers, and experiences more bugs and rendering issues
than normal elements.
Alan
On Saturday, June 23, 2012 at 5:39 AM, Klaus Mueller wrote:
Hi all,
at all, I think there is an wide need for captions and most solutions
are mostly handmade spans in paragraphs.
Am 22.06.2012 22:13, schrieb Jakob:
That's why I changed my mind, that it would be better to use a **new**
syntax with the exclamation mark instead of the colon, then there
would be no ambiguity.
Could we use the content of the title tag, or an extra caption field
inside the img-markdown instead?
For the title tag there is already a css solution with [:after][1]
It could be a little bit confusing if more [img-tags][2] which will be
integrated some times.
greetz
klml
[1]:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3850156/add-title-attribute-on-next-line-via-after
[2]: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_img.asp
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Heßstraße 90
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+49 89 18 98 58 21
+49 178 54 38 400
klml.de
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Re: Definition list as image caption
Hi all,
This could be usefull in some cases, but you point out yourself, that there
is a solution with css. In my opinion the title attribute is mostly useless
and stupid, as it leads to [Mystery meat
navigation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_meat_navigation), which
sucks!
I thougt about using the content title tag *as* caption. Not using the
title tag in its origin way. But I think this will mix the title-tag and
caption aka figure
I think the `figure` element is a good example for a semantic element. I
think it should be used; and I think it should therefore be implemented into
Markdown.
I totally agree. I only talk about the markdown syntax, not the
generated html. There for figure is great and the right thing.
Mainly I suggested an extra value inside the Markdown image, after the
title tag
Due to the lack of therapy, R. Ronald et al suggested another palliative
treatment ...
! **Some disease in a male patient**: See the *red* pustula, that explode
when touched.
```
in this case I would write:
But this will be only useful in images and not like your solution in all
elements. And if you have much formatted text, very confusing.
greetz
klml
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Re: Definition list as image caption
Am 24.06.2012 um 01:36 schrieb Michel Fortin michel.for...@michelf.com: Le 2012-06-23 à 10:18, Jakob a écrit : Not at all. If we want to allow anything inside a figure element (as HTML5 permits), then all we have to do is force the figure content to be indented. You could even nest figures that way. *That's maybe even better!* So the syntax would be just the inversion of my proposal: Instead of figure = caption you have caption = figure. This makes a lot more sense. However, would we still be able to have multi-paragraph captions? That would require a syntax with a recurring prefix. For instance, we could mimic how blockquotes work and use ] as a prefix for captions: ] Figure 1: some big figure caption ] ] second paragraph of the caption ] ] blockquote in the caption ] ] etc. !Here goes the figure's content Indented by one tab But I fear this is complicating the syntax too much for something that is rarely needed. There's always HTML as a fallback if you really need this. Yes, it shouldnt get too complicated. Just for the sake of understanding it: it would also be possible with a marker just once, right? So like ? multi paragraph caption ! Figure This would also make it possible to decide weather the caption is supposed to be on top or below. Now, just make the leading ! and indentation optional for an image and you get this: [[ Figure 1: A simple image ]]  The only problem with this would be that *every* image would get a figure. However i think `! ` would do the job just fine: so only the indent would be optional. What I was proposing is that an image alone on its line and preceded by a caption would become a figure. Not every standalone images. Oops, sorry, i wasnt clear enough. Of course i didn mean inline images, but it could lead to unexpected results if you have a quasi inline image at the end of a paragraph just due to line wrapping: Here is my inline image that i want to show you and its by hazard at a break:  ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Definition list as image caption
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 7:00 AM, Jakob ja...@gmx.at wrote: recently though about image captions, then i realized that this could be achiebed by Markdown Extra's definition list feature:  : here goes the *caption* What do you think? Hmm, what HTML are you suggesting that output? Standard Definition List HTML? How would that translate to a caption? -- \X/ /-\ `/ |_ /-\ |\| Waylan Limberg ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Definition list as image caption
Von: Waylan Limberg way...@gmail.com
Hmm, what HTML are you suggesting that output? Standard Definition
List HTML? How would that translate to a caption?
In the meantime I rethought my proposal, but for the sake of being backwards
compatible with HTML4: I think it should take a figure class (only when it is
only images and that definition line), like this:
```
dl class=figure
dtimg alt=alt text src=http://example.com/img.jpg;/dt
dd class=figcaptionthe caption/dd
/dl
```
like this i would be very similar to the HTML5 stuff (and could be easily
handled in CSS with `.figure {}` in HTML4 or just `figure {}` in HTML5):
```
figure
img alt=alt text src=http://example.com/img.jpg;
figcaptionthe caption/figcaption
/figure
```
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Re: Definition list as image caption
It's a good idea, Jakob. Despite the name of this HTML element (which HTML5
moves to rename as description list), it exists for exactly the sort of
purpose you suggest -- or, as I like to say, DT is some object, DD is
something *about* that object.
No matter which implementation of Markdown (or anything else) one uses to wrap
content in HTML, the question is, What HTML element is appropriate for the
job? The answer isn't always stark, and DL has long been undervalued,
misunderstood, and largely forgotten, but it is indeed the best choice in this
case.
And in situations where the text includes discrete bits, such as a photograph's
copyright info and the name of the photographer in addition to the caption, we
see that it indeed becomes list-like, so that the appropriateness of using DL
becomes even more apparent.
Here's an example of styling for a photo and caption info in a DL element.
(Note: I made up the copyright info. If Wikipedia even allows hotlinking to
their photos, I'd first look up the correct way of doing it before using this
on a real site.)
div#example {
max-width: 20em;
}
dt {
padding: 5px;
border: 1px solid gray;
margin-bottom: 5px;
}
dt img {
width: 100%;
height: auto;
}
dd {
margin-left: 0; /* removes the indent */
color: gray;
font-size: small;
}
dd.maker, dd.copyright {
font-style: italic;
font-size: x-small;
margin-top: 1em;
}
dd.maker {
float: left;
margin-right: 2em;
}
dd.copyright {
float: right;
}
div id=example
dl
dtimg
src=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Fuzzy_Freddy.jpg;
alt=Foxy Freddy, from Wikipedia
ddFox is a common name for many species of omnivorous mammals belonging to
the Canidae family.
dd class=makerPhoto by Rob Lee
dd class=copyrightcopy;2012 Wikimedia / GPL
/dl
/div
Regards,
TH
On Jun 22, 2012, at 7:00 AM, Jakob wrote:
recently though about image captions, then i realized that this could be
achiebed by Markdown Extra's definition list feature:
: here goes the *caption*
What do you think?
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Re: Definition list as image caption
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Jakob ja...@gmx.at wrote:
Von: Waylan Limberg way...@gmail.com
Hmm, what HTML are you suggesting that output? Standard Definition
List HTML? How would that translate to a caption?
In the meantime I rethought my proposal, but for the sake of being backwards
compatible with HTML4: I think it should take a figure class (only when it
is only images and that definition line), like this:
```
dl class=figure
dtimg alt=alt text src=http://example.com/img.jpg;/dt
dd class=figcaptionthe caption/dd
/dl
```
So you want the parser to special case dt's that contain an image and
then attach a bunch of classes to the output. That seems like it might
surprise the user a little too much and I don;t recall any other
syntax which follows a similar pattern. I don't like it.
like this i would be very similar to the HTML5 stuff (and could be easily
handled in CSS with `.figure {}` in HTML4 or just `figure {}` in HTML5):
```
figure
img alt=alt text src=http://example.com/img.jpg;
figcaptionthe caption/figcaption
/figure
```
I think this one probably falls in the should be in raw HTML camp.
Remember the syntax rules state that markdown is only for a subset of
HTML. These special cased HTML5 tags all strike me as raw HTML
material.
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Re: Definition list as image caption
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Thomas Humiston t...@jumpingrock.net wrote:
It's a good idea, Jakob. Despite the name of this HTML element (which HTML5
moves to rename as description list), it exists for exactly the sort of
purpose you suggest -- or, as I like to say, DT is some object, DD is
something *about* that object.
No matter which implementation of Markdown (or anything else) one uses to
wrap content in HTML, the question is, What HTML element is appropriate for
the job? The answer isn't always stark, and DL has long been undervalued,
misunderstood, and largely forgotten, but it is indeed the best choice in
this case.
And in situations where the text includes discrete bits, such as a
photograph's copyright info and the name of the photographer in addition to
the caption, we see that it indeed becomes list-like, so that the
appropriateness of using DL becomes even more apparent.
Here's an example of styling for a photo and caption info in a DL element.
(Note: I made up the copyright info. If Wikipedia even allows hotlinking to
their photos, I'd first look up the correct way of doing it before using this
on a real site.)
div#example {
max-width: 20em;
}
dt {
padding: 5px;
border: 1px solid gray;
margin-bottom: 5px;
}
dt img {
width: 100%;
height: auto;
}
dd {
margin-left: 0; /* removes the indent */
color: gray;
font-size: small;
}
dd.maker, dd.copyright {
font-style: italic;
font-size: x-small;
margin-top: 1em;
}
dd.maker {
float: left;
margin-right: 2em;
}
dd.copyright {
float: right;
}
div id=example
dl
dtimg
src=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Fuzzy_Freddy.jpg;
alt=Foxy Freddy, from Wikipedia
ddFox is a common name for many species of omnivorous mammals belonging to
the Canidae family.
dd class=makerPhoto by Rob Lee
dd class=copyrightcopy;2012 Wikimedia / GPL
/dl
/div
Now, this is a proposal I can get behind - sort of. Of course its
really a non-proposal because it is already possible with no
modification to at least some implementations. The only proposal here
is to determine what hooks the CSS should expect. And I've never seen
markdown require specific classes as styling hooks. But, hey, if you
want to standardize internally within your organization, that is a
good starting place.
The best part is, any implementation that already supports definition
lists, markdown processing inside raw html blocks and attribute lists
[1] [2] can generate that output. The input would look like this:
div class=example markdown=1
![Foxy Freddy, from Wikipedia]
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Fuzzy_Freddy.jpg)
:Fox is a common name for many species of
omnivorous mammals belonging to the Canidae
family.
:Photo by Rob Lee
{: .maker }
:copy;2012 Wikimedia / GPL
{: .copyright }
/div
The key is that the wrapping div has a hook set (changed it to a
class, not an id - otherwise you could only have one
image-with-caption per page) identifying it as a image-with-caption.
Author a definition list without that div/class hook, and it is a
regular definition list. Either way, the markdown parser does the same
thing. Only the CSS cares and alters how it is displayed. Again, a
non-proposal as far as Markdown is concerned.
[1]: http://maruku.rubyforge.org/proposal.html#attribute_lists
[2]: http://packages.python.org/Markdown/extensions/attr_list.html
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Re: Definition list as image caption
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 4:00 AM, Jakob ja...@gmx.at wrote: recently though about image captions, then i realized that this could be achiebed by Markdown Extra's definition list feature:  : here goes the *caption* What do you think? For reference, here's Russ Weakly in 2004: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/articles/definition/ LQ -- Lou Quillio http://quillio.com/ ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
