subject:"Create your own customised GNOME liveCD"

[FWIW, I actually put together a 2.11 liveCD at one point, but it
ended up being an 800M iso, so I did not distribute ;)

On 7/25/05, Luis Villa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Luis (hoping to push out a 2.11 liveCD at some point in the next few
   days, we'll see)
 
  gnoppix.org claims to already have done that and works as a drop in
  replacement for the hoary iso. You may have a look into that.
 
 Grrr. gnoppix.org and I... hrm. well, anyway. I'll just say that I'm
 not thrilled that there is this duplication of effort, though at this
 point some of it is my fault.

For the record, what I said I'd do at GUADEC that I have failed to do:

* put up gnome.org/projects/livecd so that gnoppix.org can be redirected there
* talk to amu about his scripts. I was waiting on you, Marcus, for
that, so I sort of have an excuse there ;)
* put up a 2.11 liveCD

things I think in the end I disagree with gnoppix about:
* naming; I want it called simply the GNOME LiveCD. No one outside a
core group of geeks knows what knoppix is, and so calling it gnoppix
is (1) marketing to the wrong group and (2) confusing to newbies.
* installation: as already pointed out

what has irritated me in the past:
* choice of defaults: gnoppix defaults to firefox, for example; a
custom theme, and for a long time to german :)
* 'distinct' community- the liveCD community, as it is, should be
gnomesupport.org; there is no need for separate boards, etc.

I think we can fix both of these last to (christian implied as much
during GUADEC at least) so much of the ball is in my court right now.
Unfortunately, I don't have very much free time right now. :/ If
someone wanted to put up a gnome.org/projects/livecd/ that would be
great; I'd hoped to put it together based on andreasn's work, but that
hasn't happened, obviously. :/

Luis
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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

2005-07-25 Thread Andreas Mueller

Am Montag, den 25.07.2005, 09:08 -0400 schrieb Luis Villa:
 On 7/25/05, Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 00:22 -0400, Luis Villa wrote:

[...]

   Luis (hoping to push out a 2.11 liveCD at some point in the next few
   days, we'll see)
  
  gnoppix.org claims to already have done that and works as a drop in
  replacement for the hoary iso. You may have a look into that.
 
 Grrr. gnoppix.org and I... hrm. well, anyway. I'll just say that I'm
 not thrilled that there is this duplication of effort, though at this
 point some of it is my fault.

I am surprised that there is ZERO communication. We're ( Gnome e.V. and
some other distro's working ATM on a 2.11.5 ) I posted the master
roadmap to the gnome-ev maillinglist. In short, it will be a WEB-GUI
where user can click _and_ customize his CD himself in a very very easy
way ... 

Cheers,
amu




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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:06:12 +0200
Claus Schwarm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 They probably heard the word
 'Knoppix' more often that they heard the word 'GNOME'.
 

In Germany, that is.

Cheers,
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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

2005-07-25 Thread Simos Xenitellis


Claus Schwarm wrote:


On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:14:47 -0400
Luis Villa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 


things I think in the end I disagree with gnoppix about:
* naming; I want it called simply the GNOME LiveCD. No one outside a
core group of geeks knows what knoppix is, and so calling it gnoppix
is (1) marketing to the wrong group and (2) confusing to newbies.
* installation: as already pointed out

   



Knoppix is around for two or three years, was discussed and
presented in a large number of journals, and is  -- for a Linux
distribution -- rather well known.

Beginners or infrequent computer users are unlikely to test a LiveCD -
they need to know what an operating system is, that there are more
choices than Microsoft, and maybe how to change their BIOS settings to
make booting from a CD work.

A liveCD is thus nice for advanced users. They probably heard the word
'Knoppix' more often that they heard the word 'GNOME'.

This is no argument for or against any of these names but a reminder
that the above argument doesn't make sense. We should get away from the
'either newbie or geek' distinction -- there are quite a lot of advanced
users out there.
 


I cannot understand your point.

There is a general perception that a LiveCD is the least intrusive way 
for a new user to familiarise him/herself
with a new operating system. Other options would be to give away 
preinstalled computers (expensive), or
ask them to install (intrusive, cannot back out). Do you have any 
figures that shows the LiveCDs do not work

well with newbies?
Indeed the newbie has to make sure the computer boots from CDROM, but 
this is a requirement we have to
live with. When you buy a new computer, you get a rescue CD that you are 
required to boot with if you make

a mess.
Although I do not have figures to support my case (LiveCDs are the least 
possible means to show a new user

a new software offering), I feel that they are good.

What Luis asks about rebranding the LiveCDs as GNOME LiveCD is simply 
that; rebrand it to appear
as a product offering from GNOME, to showcase GNOME. In technical terms 
it means to make a parameter
for the name of the LiveCD construction toolkit, so perhaps both GNOME 
and others can make their own

branded offerings.

Maybe I am wrong, my view is that we (GNOME Marketing) want to get a 
LiveCD ISO image out to the masses
that support both English and other languages. We (GNOME Marketing) are 
flexible with how it is done, we would

like it done in a comfortable way.
My views on:
a. gnoppix.org, I have the impression they have been absorbed into the 
Ubuntu LiveCD project. Is that true?
They make no announcements that I can see (GNOME lists, linuxtoday.org, 
etc), so one would assume they are
defunct. I think the lead developer is working for Ubuntu now. They do 
not market well, if they are still in the market.
b. GNOME e.V: Just read about their efforts. I did not see any other 
announcement of their effort. It would be good
guys to publicise the project. It looks very interesting what you are 
doing with the Web-interface to make multiple custom
LiveCDs. If multilingual is your goal, you could parameterise boot 
screens (text), boot logo (SVG) so that the text goes
into .po files, and use a Web translation mechanism (Pootle or simply 
GNOME i18n) to have translations in many languages.

Anyway, this would be the ideal situation for GNOME.
Then, you can autogenerate once and distribute.

See, I speak as if I am representing GNOME Marketing...

Simos
That's Greek to me.
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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 15:33 +0200, Andreas Mueller wrote:

 I am surprised that there is ZERO communication. 
Hi Andreas,

googling for gnome livecd gives as first hit:
http://live.gnome.org/GnomeLiveCd
Additionally it has even been featured on planet.gnome.org and Luis
Villa is quite talkative and has a large audience. And in the last days
there has even been on the front page of www.gnome.org a link straight
to the gnome marketing efforts with a link to the live cd's. See too:
http://torrent.gnome.org/

 We're ( Gnome e.V. and
 some other distro's working ATM on a 2.11.5 ) I posted the master
 roadmap to the gnome-ev maillinglist. 

I couldn't find any gnome-ev mailing list and neither did google help
me :(  Do you have a URL pointing to it?

As stated on the german gnome website
( http://www.gnome-ev.de/index.php/GNOME_LiveCD ):
I would prefer this work/documentation to be done as part of the
regular GNOME and Ubuntu LiveCD projects, unless there is some reason
not to cooperate. MurrayCumming. And Murray had contacted me before
LinuxTag but then decided to go for Ubuntu. Thus he definitly knows.

 In short, it will be a WEB-GUI
 where user can click _and_ customize his CD himself in a very very easy
 way ... 

I think it is overkill to rewrite the cloop tools. Currently they do
everything in RAM and thus you need for everybody using a web interface
700MB of free memory. Plus: on an AMD-XP2600 it takes 30 minutes to
generate a new CD. I guess you have found the ultimate way to slashdot
even the top500 super computers ;-)

Next problem you run into is the i18n. It works easy with the main
languages but there are lots of caveats with less widespread languages.

However feel free to use what is already there. 

Marcus





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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

2005-07-25 Thread Terance Edward Sola

søn, 24,.07.2005 kl. 23.58 +0200, skrev Marcus Bauer:
 Hi, creating a customized GNOME liveCD yourself is easy and takes just a
 few minutes of time:

[...]

 I still think it would be cool for the next GNOME release to have a
 couple dozen localized liveCDs (naturally based on 2.12 and with install
 option).
 
 Marcus

Could we expect an update after Ubuntu has released their 2.12 LiveCD
then? Regarding stuff like the .iso, content, etc ?

Cheers,
Terance

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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:45:37 +0100
Simos Xenitellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 I cannot understand your point.
 

I'll try to explain.

If we from the marketing group continue to use expressions as 'geek' or
'newbie', we'll be stuck in ongoing discussions without any progress.

What do you mean by 'newbie', for example: A newbie to computers, a
newbie to Linux, or a newbie to GNOME?

Just because one may a newbie to Linux or GNOME, one may not be a newbie
to computers. There are people with more than 10 years experience in
Windows but never touched a Linux box. These people know how to
handle a graphical user interface with trees, right-click menues, and
the like.

A computer beginner or infrequent user (less than 2 years Windows
experience) is unlikely to be able to manage a Live CD on his own.

Advanced computers users (more than 2 years Windows experience but less
than 1 year Linux experience) can manage a LiveCD but they probably
heard of Knoppix before -- at least in Germany. These people are likely
to read PC journals.

I wasn't speaking about the pros and cons of LiveCD's. I was talking
about the mistakes we make if we don't think of advanced computer users!
We start saying things like 

(1) No one outside a core group of geeks knows what knoppix is.,
(2) calling it gnoppix is marketing to the wrong group, and 
(3) calling it gnoppix is confusing to newbies.

Now, (1) is wrong according to my experience, (2) needs some serious
thinking, and (3) is wrong because a computer newbie hardly knows what
'Gnoppix', 'GNOME' or a 'LiveCD' is.

Hopefully, this was a better description. If not, please let me know.

Cheers,
Claus

P.S.: Speaking of LiveCDs in general: Without a graphical partion tool,
and without a graphical installation assistent, the utility of LiveCDs
for marketing are overestimated, IMHO.
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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 15:45 +0100, Simos Xenitellis wrote:

 Maybe I am wrong, my view is that we (GNOME Marketing) want to get a 
 LiveCD ISO image out to the masses
 that support both English and other languages. We (GNOME Marketing) are 
 flexible with how it is done, we would
 like it done in a comfortable way.

In fact I'm convinced now that the main GNOME liveCD should be in
russian. People will like to be greeted in russian and then try to find
their way through russian help pages to figure out what magic words will
let them switch to their preferred language. Special fun will be to
figure out where a slash is on a russian keyboard. They will like it :)

I'm repeating myself here and I will do it again: one liveCD for one
language. For the many people english is what russian is to most or all
the readers of this list. All computers start up with a us keyboard
layout. Adding a command line switch is a pain when being on another
keyboard. 

Another advantage of one-language CDs is that this frees lots of space
for marketing material.

Marcus

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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD


If I'm not mistaken, another LiveCD has a graphical install tool,
already.

http://www.pclinuxonline.com/pclos/index.html

It's KDE based, unfortunatly, but remastering seems to be rather easy,
and according to their forums, GNOME's in their repositories.

I'm also disappointed that gparted doesn't seem to be considered in
Ubuntu; especially because the developer of gparted was inspired due to
one of my forum posts. ;)

Cheers,
Claus


On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:31:05 -0300
Santiago Roza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 P.S.: Speaking of LiveCDs in general: Without a graphical partion
 tool ...
 
 i've seen this issue (graphical partition tool) in the breezy bounty
 list (with priority = high), and i wondered why wasn't gparted
 (gparted.sourceforge.net) being considered as a suitable option...
 it's gtk-based and equal or probably better (feature and
 usability-wise) than qtparted, a popular graphical (parted-based)
 partition tool that's included by default in some kde-based distros
 (like mepis)
 http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyBounties
 
 -- 
 Santiago Roza
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://santiagoroza.blogspot.com/
 
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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

2005-07-25 Thread Murray Cumming

On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 13:31 -0300, Santiago Roza wrote:
 P.S.: Speaking of LiveCDs in general: Without a graphical partion tool ...

The GNOME LiveCDs are for marketing, and testing, not for installing or
otherwise messing with your system.

[snip]
-- 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.murrayc.com
www.openismus.com

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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

2005-07-25 Thread Simos Xenitellis

Στις 25/Ιούλ/2005, ημέρα Δευτέρα και ώρα 17:26, ο/η Marcus Bauer έγραψε:
On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 15:45 +0100, Simos Xenitellis wrote:

Maybe I am wrong, my view is that we (GNOME Marketing) want to get a
LiveCD ISO image out to the masses
that support both English and other languages. We (GNOME Marketing) are
flexible with how it is done, we would
like it done in a comfortable way.

In fact I'm convinced now that the main GNOME liveCD should be in
russian. People will like to be greeted in russian and then try to find
their way through russian help pages to figure out what magic words will
let them switch to their preferred language. Special fun will be to
figure out where a slash is on a russian keyboard. They will like it :)

I'm repeating myself here and I will do it again: one liveCD for one
language. For the many people english is what russian is to most or all

Okay, I was not precise above. Of course it's one LiveCD per language.
And preferably the ISO images do not have to be generated on the fly,
but done once and distributed on the Web. Using VMWare, it's elemental
to boot from the .iso file and have a cursory look if all went ok.

Simos

the readers of this list. All computers start up with a us keyboard
layout. Adding a command line switch is a pain when being on another
keyboard.

Another advantage of one-language CDs is that this frees lots of space
for marketing material.

Marcus

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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

Hi Murray,

 The GNOME LiveCDs are for marketing, and testing, not for installing or
 otherwise messing with your system.

do you really mean that installing GNOME is messing with someones
system? Since quite some time I thought that this is the coolest
thing that can happen to a computer...

Could you explain to me what marketing means? I always thought its
purpose is to get stuff out to *users*, i.e. getting people to _use_
something and not only to _watch_ at it but I seem to be absolutly
mistaken about that :(

Holy crap! :-) 

Geez: Bill, Steve, Scott and SADLBF (SFADLB,SBDALF?) would still be
sitting in their respective garages and probably repairing bicycles
nowadays had they been that chicken hearted ;-)  LiveCDs are very
important and they must be localized and installable.

Okay, a last time how I got here: I'm living in France being german
and my local linux user group features a french localized knoppix
which is called KLA. I'm quite sure you never heard about it before
but it is a huge success in France and Canada and I read everyday
about new users on the lug mailing list. It has even been distributed
with the french red-hat magazine and is now being distributed by the
french government in the region of Auvergne at 50.000 copies to all
schools. KLA has four selling points: it is french, it is a liveCD, it
is installable and it has french support. And I searched for something
similar with GNOME but it didn't exist. Once again: simply make the
next official GNOME liveCD defaulting to chinese. You think I'm nuts?
You are right! and right now you do understand that five billion
people on earth think that *you* are nuts too forcing them into
english (and english help pages and an english keyboard layout for the
command line switch to any other language)

Thanks for reading ;-) I'm open for any flame, I will read them all
and then properly file them and then at new years eve I'll delete them
alltogether 8-)

Marcus

P.S: I have been answering here to Murrays posting but it is more a
reply to the list - I highly respect Murray.
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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

2005-07-25 Thread Simos Xenitellis

Στις 25/Ιούλ/2005, ημέρα Δευτέρα και ώρα 16:54, ο/η Claus Schwarm
έγραψε:
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:45:37 +0100
Simos Xenitellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I cannot understand your point.

I'll try to explain.

If we from the marketing group continue to use expressions as 'geek' or
'newbie', we'll be stuck in ongoing discussions without any progress.

What do you mean by 'newbie', for example: A newbie to computers, a
newbie to Linux, or a newbie to GNOME?

Just because one may a newbie to Linux or GNOME, one may not be a newbie
to computers. There are people with more than 10 years experience in
Windows but never touched a Linux box. These people know how to
handle a graphical user interface with trees, right-click menues, and
the like.

A computer beginner or infrequent user (less than 2 years Windows
experience) is unlikely to be able to manage a Live CD on his own.

Advanced computers users (more than 2 years Windows experience but less
than 1 year Linux experience) can manage a LiveCD but they probably
heard of Knoppix before -- at least in Germany. These people are likely
to read PC journals.

I wasn't speaking about the pros and cons of LiveCD's. I was talking
about the mistakes we make if we don't think of advanced computer users!
We start saying things like

(1) No one outside a core group of geeks knows what knoppix is.,
(2) calling it gnoppix is marketing to the wrong group, and
(3) calling it gnoppix is confusing to newbies.

Now, (1) is wrong according to my experience, (2) needs some serious
thinking, and (3) is wrong because a computer newbie hardly knows what
'Gnoppix', 'GNOME' or a 'LiveCD' is.

Hopefully, this was a better description. If not, please let me know.

Now I have a better understanding of what you mean.
If you also listed your suggestions for action on the LiveCD, I would
have the full picture. As is, I can only conjecture that you would
rather have several LiveCDs for each focus group, and each LiveCD would
be branded accordingly.

But this is my conjecture and I would not like to debate without some
acknowledgement.

My feeling is we want to get ready now LiveCDs (one LiveCD per language)
with GNOME and it is implied that the baseline user that can figure out
how to boot from the CD drive, can see use it. If the user knows a bit
more than booting from the CD drive, she is not disqualified from using
the LiveCD.
If the user has no clue about computers, then the chances she got hold
of a GNOME LiveCD are very small. Probably someone who knows a bit more,
and gave the CD, will help out.

Read also below for the no-install option.

Cheers,
Claus

P.S.: Speaking of LiveCDs in general: Without a graphical partion tool,
and without a graphical installation assistent, the utility of LiveCDs
for marketing are overestimated, IMHO.

Oops, my idea is that you cannot install from this GNOME LiveCD :)
If you want to install GNOME, you get it from a distribution.
I would not want to be in the position of supporting end-users who have
installed from the GNOME LiveCD.
Isn't that the current status?
The GNOME LiveCD should have one purpose, to demonstrate to the end
user what GNOME is, in their own language. And yes, each language has
its own LiveCD :).
Just like Ubuntu, they send you by post two CDs, an install CD and a
LiveCD.

Simos

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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

2005-07-25 Thread Corey Burger

The idea of an installable live cd is a great one, until you realize
the implications.

The basically makes Gnome a distribution, which does the following bad things:

1. Gnome does not have the support structure to support average users,
nor should it gain one. That is the job of Novell, RH, Ubuntu, etc.
2. You further divide up the mindshare, but directly competeing with
the above mentioned distros

So lets leave the live cd as a nice test bed, and point people at
distros if they want day to day stuff.

Corey
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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

On 7/25/05, Simos Xenitellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Just like Ubuntu, they send you by post two CDs, an install CD and a
 LiveCD.

They are going to change that with the next release.
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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:35:48 +0100
Simos Xenitellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 Now I have a better understanding of what you mean.


Cool! :)

 If you also listed your suggestions for action on the LiveCD, I would
 have the full picture. As is, I can only conjecture that you would
 rather have several LiveCDs for each focus group, and each LiveCD
 would be branded accordingly.
 

I have no suggestions for the GNOME Live CD.

 Oops, my idea is that you cannot install from this GNOME LiveCD :)

Yes. I was talking about LiveCDs _in general_, and watched Ubuntu
closely while doing so. In hindsight, this was a great mistake.

Note: I see no need to make the GNOME Live CD installable.

 If you want to install GNOME, you get it from a distribution.

Absolutly my opinion.

 I would not want to be in the position of supporting end-users who
 have installed from the GNOME LiveCD.

No. I don't think anybody would like to do this.

 Isn't that the current status?

This is correct as far as I know.

 The GNOME LiveCD should have one purpose, to demonstrate to the end
 user what GNOME is, in their own language. And yes, each language has
 its own LiveCD :).

The example with the Chinese default language makes sense. And some
people will very likely demonstrate GNOME with the GNOME Live CD.


Cheers,
Claus
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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

On 7/25/05, Corey Burger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The idea of an installable live cd is a great one, until you realize
 the implications.
 
 The basically makes Gnome a distribution, which does the following bad things:
 
 1. Gnome does not have the support structure to support average users,

www.gnomesupport.org

 nor should it gain one. 

Then what are communities good for? People love to support each other.
What the fsck do you think Microsoft is making its money with? It is
tens of millions of people who do unpaid support by helping out their
parents, grandparents,  relatives and friends. A simple example: how
many people are really able to install a wlan at home? My guess is
only 10% of those who have one installed. And the communities are one
of the greatest strengths of open source. Tell me one good reason why
not to build on it.


 That is the job of Novell, RH, Ubuntu, etc.

and Microsoft? By the way; why has Canonical kicked out support to
Ubuntu instead of doing it under its own name? Simply because that is
not managable for a company. Have you ever bought a SuSE and called
their support? They are callcenter loonies having no clue and giving
you circular answers. Example: the colored side of the DVD must be
upside.


 2. You further divide up the mindshare, but directly competeing with
 the above mentioned distros

Consequently thinking your reasoning to the end means that GNOME
should disappear from public to avoid dividing mindshare.

 So lets leave the live cd as a nice test bed

Yes, and lets rename the marketing list into anti-marketing list. |-(

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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

2005-07-25 Thread Corey Burger

Wow, that was a lot of anger. 

I am not advocating that gnome stop marketing itself. I am merely
saying that once you start installing something on a machine, you have
to support it. And no, gnomesupport is not the kind of support I am
talking about. I am talking about security patches and similar non-fun
stuff.

If Gnome wants to go this path and become a distribution in and of
itself, that is fine, but I doubt that that is what your average gnome
hacker wants.

Corey
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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

2005-07-25 Thread Sriram Ramkrishna

I hope each of these livecds will have clear instructions on how to
obtain an iso to burn with the right language.  Otherwise nobody
is going to isntall it.  One should apply Fitz law in obtaining
things as well. ;)

This might even me downloading the iso image from the livecd itself
and putting it on a windows hard drive if thats possible and then
giving instructions to show them how to burn a live cd.  You might
even have to include the option of including burner software in
case they don't have one.

If you impress them with the easy transition, the distro will be
impressive as well.  Make them run through hoops and kiss that
potential person good bye.  An american (to take an example) has as
much attention span as it takes to go through 3 commercials before
they want to do something else. :-)

sri


On Tue, Jul 26, 2005 at 12:14:32AM +0200, Claus Schwarm wrote:
 On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 22:35:48 +0100
 Simos Xenitellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  
  Now I have a better understanding of what you mean.
 
 
 Cool! :)
 
  If you also listed your suggestions for action on the LiveCD, I would
  have the full picture. As is, I can only conjecture that you would
  rather have several LiveCDs for each focus group, and each LiveCD
  would be branded accordingly.
  
 
 I have no suggestions for the GNOME Live CD.
 
  Oops, my idea is that you cannot install from this GNOME LiveCD :)
 
 Yes. I was talking about LiveCDs _in general_, and watched Ubuntu
 closely while doing so. In hindsight, this was a great mistake.
 
 Note: I see no need to make the GNOME Live CD installable.
 
  If you want to install GNOME, you get it from a distribution.
 
 Absolutly my opinion.
 
  I would not want to be in the position of supporting end-users who
  have installed from the GNOME LiveCD.
 
 No. I don't think anybody would like to do this.
 
  Isn't that the current status?
 
 This is correct as far as I know.
 
  The GNOME LiveCD should have one purpose, to demonstrate to the end
  user what GNOME is, in their own language. And yes, each language has
  its own LiveCD :).
 
 The example with the Chinese default language makes sense. And some
 people will very likely demonstrate GNOME with the GNOME Live CD.
 
 
 Cheers,
 Claus
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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

On 7/25/05, Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 7/25/05, Corey Burger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  The idea of an installable live cd is a great one, until you realize
  the implications.
 
  The basically makes Gnome a distribution, which does the following bad 
  things:
 
  1. Gnome does not have the support structure to support average users,
 
 www.gnomesupport.org
 
  nor should it gain one.
 
 Then what are communities good for? People love to support each other.
 What the fsck do you think Microsoft is making its money with? It is
 tens of millions of people who do unpaid support by helping out their
 parents, grandparents,  relatives and friends. A simple example: how
 many people are really able to install a wlan at home? My guess is
 only 10% of those who have one installed. And the communities are one
 of the greatest strengths of open source. Tell me one good reason why
 not to build on it.

It would not hurt to gain one (it would truly be great to have such a
thing), but we have to focus on things we can do now- and supporting
an installed user base is not one of those things, even if it might be
in the future.

It is also worth noting that saying we support an installed distro
means we have obligations beyond just 'answering questions'- it
implies that we follow bugtraq, issue security updates, fix kernel
bugs, etc., etc. We shoud only take on those very onerous obligations
if we think it would help us market gnome vastly better than we do
with 'just' a demo CD; I don't think that is the case.

  That is the job of Novell, RH, Ubuntu, etc.
 
 and Microsoft? By the way; why has Canonical kicked out support to
 Ubuntu instead of doing it under its own name? 

Well, they have only kicked out the ungrateful support- people who
want to pay very much still go to Ubuntu :)

 Simply because that is
 not managable for a company. Have you ever bought a SuSE and called
 their support? They are callcenter loonies having no clue and giving
 you circular answers. Example: the colored side of the DVD must be
 upside.

Like I said earlier, that is only part of support- they also pay very,
very skilled people to patch kernels, issue updates, test updats, etc.
All very non-trivial.

  2. You further divide up the mindshare, but directly competeing with
  the above mentioned distros
 
 Consequently thinking your reasoning to the end means that GNOME
 should disappear from public to avoid dividing mindshare.

Taking mindshare from distros that don't publicize their use of gnome
probably isn't a bad thing, but then again, we should be working very
hard to make sure that every distro markets their use of gnome as they
market their use of ffox and ooo.

Luis
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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

On 7/26/05, Corey Burger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Wow, that was a lot of anger.

*smile*

 I am not advocating that gnome stop marketing itself. I am merely
 saying that once you start installing something on a machine, you have
 to support it. And no, gnomesupport is not the kind of support I am
 talking about. I am talking about security patches and similar non-fun
 stuff.

Hey, have I lately talked about KLA? :) Did I mention that they are
spreading out 50.000 copies to schools in France? They are two and a
half part time developers. There are no timely security updates. And
look how well Microsoft supports its users with spyware infected
computers. The only software on a desktop system that needs updates is
the web browser.

No, no, no :o) I don't understand marketing that gives away lots of
its possible effect for being holier than the pope :^)

 
 If Gnome wants to go this path and become a distribution in and of
 itself, that is fine, but I doubt that that is what your average gnome
 hacker wants.

My guess is that the average hackers wants as many people to use his
software as possible. That is kind of applause for the artist :)
GNOME does not need to become a distribution by itself it simply can
plug to something existing.

Marcus
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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

On 7/25/05, Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hey, have I lately talked about KLA? :) Did I mention that they are
 spreading out 50.000 copies to schools in France? They are two and a
 half part time developers. There are no timely security updates. 

I'd be embarassed if I were them, if what you say is true, and I would
be absolutely horrified if GNOME did the same. We have a reputation of
quality, and consciously attaching our name to an OS that we don't
intend to support well (in all meanings of that word) is embarassing.

 My guess is that the average hackers wants as many people to use his
 software as possible. That is kind of applause for the artist :)
 GNOME does not need to become a distribution by itself it simply can
 plug to something existing.

I'd be fairly happy if we can figure out a way such that an installed
liveCD 'becomes' an Ubuntu install with very slight default changes at
the first update. That's actually tricky ATM, because we remove many
default Ubuntu packages that are wasteful, which means that Ubuntu
might not consider such an install an 'Ubuntu' install, and be
reluctant to support it. [There are more details to why this is, but I
don't feel like writing them out now; I'm in class ;)]

Luis
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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD

On 7/26/05, Luis Villa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 7/25/05, Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hey, have I lately talked about KLA? :) Did I mention that they are
  spreading out 50.000 copies to schools in France? They are two and a
  half part time developers. There are no timely security updates.
 
 I'd be embarassed if I were them, if what you say is true, and I would
 be absolutely horrified if GNOME did the same. We have a reputation of
 quality, and consciously attaching our name to an OS that we don't
 intend to support well (in all meanings of that word) is embarassing.

Yes and no. GNOME can't do it because they are playing in a different
league. But it is worth to look for a way to get onto the harddisk
once the CD is in the drive.

 
  My guess is that the average hackers wants as many people to use his
  software as possible. That is kind of applause for the artist :)
  GNOME does not need to become a distribution by itself it simply can
  plug to something existing.
 
 I'd be fairly happy if we can figure out a way such that an installed
 liveCD 'becomes' an Ubuntu install with very slight default changes at
 the first update. That's actually tricky ATM, because we remove many
 default Ubuntu packages that are wasteful, which means that Ubuntu
 might not consider such an install an 'Ubuntu' install, and be
 reluctant to support it. 

I think it would be surprising if nobody would like to benefit from
GNOMEs marketing efforts.
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Re: Create your own customised GNOME liveCD