Re: [Marxism] Australian Socialist Alliance edges into the Putinite camp
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 06/05/2014, at 8:52 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: But even more puzzling is the absence of debate on their own mailing list on Yahoo or here about all this. I have trouble figuring out whether this is a function of the sort of disdain for the petty-bourgeois Internet shared by the ISO and the SWP or instead a pronounced tendency in their ranks toward allowing an orientation to be determined by specialists like Renfrey Clarke. For one thing a lot of Internet discussion has moved to Facebook, for good or ill. For another Renfrey isn't necessarily revered as an expert, for example on Libya where there was a lot of public discussion around 2011-12 and if I recall correctly to the extent there was any line adopted, Renfrey's very positive stance towards the rebels was a minority one. See e.g. http://links.org.au/node/2300. For a third thing Socialist Alliance's line clearly isn't what's in Links, as there's a variety of views there. Socialist Alliance is discussing a line for a conference in a month, which is: [From http://alliancevoices.blogspot.com.au/2014/04/draft-international-perspectives.html] 7. The fragile recovery from the GFC and the Great Recession that followed has been at the expense of the large majority of people who have been forced to shoulder the main burden. As a result a continuing political crisis of neo-liberalism continues to break out into political upheavals and what the IMF calls “geopolitical risks”. These include the continuing wars and uprisings in the Middle East, the conflict in Ukraine and the continuing popular mobilisations against austerity in southern Europe. 8. However, many of these mass uprisings also revealed the limits of spontaneous revolts as well as the challenges – and necessity – of developing the self-organisation and political consciousness of the oppressed and building a political force that represents the interests of the oppressed and is capable of leading a struggle for political power against the ruling classes. In the absence of such developments, right-wing populists, local elites and imperialist powers will exploit the situation. We can see this dynamic unfold in Egypt, Syria and the Ukraine. 9. The Socialist Alliance will continue to stand in solidarity with all struggles against oppression and exploitation even where we disagree with the political leadership of such struggles. For instance, we defend the supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood and other dissidents facing brutal repression under the Egyptian military regime, even though we disagreed with the politics of MB and the former Morsi government. 10. We oppose – and seek to expose – any imperialist intervention and manipulation of these conflicts but we reject the approach of those leftists who in the name of opposing imperialism whitewash bloody dictatorships like that the Syrian tyrant Bashar al-Assad. Similarly, while we condemn the interference of the US and EU in the conflict in Ukraine we also call for an end to the intervention by the Putin government of Russia. We support the right of self-determination of Ukraine as well as the right of people in the Crimea to decide their future; however, this must include the right of the Crimean Tartars to return to their homeland. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Internet Revolution in Cuba
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Until now access has been limited to education and research centers, the five star hotels, the major medical centers, foreign press agencies and of course government ministries. Most access came through the office work place, with a few of the personal of these agencies able to use the internet at home. The rest of the population had no direct internet access. Is this claim of the previous level of restriction true though? According to the following by 2005 there were 600 clubs which 1 million people had used where Internet access was available: http://www.zcommunications.org/cuba-computers-automation-and-the-internet-by-dana-lubow Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] School of Rebellion: radical ideas and activities for young people
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Radical young people, carers, educators and others will be interested in following and participating in the School of Rebellion. This began as a series of activities for children and young people at the Marxism conference in Melbourne over Easter, and will organise a series of activities in the lead up to the next Marxism conference, beginning with children and carers contingents at the May Day and World Refugee Day rallies in Melbourne. See http://www.facebook.com/SchoolOfRebellion And for the May Day contingent http://www.facebook.com/events/357787651008427/?fref=ts Here's more of a blurb: The School of Rebellion isn¹t about testing and achievement¹ but about learning and agency. It¹s not a school, like every other, where education is bound to commerce and productivity but rather one where knowledge and learning are connected to justice and authentic democracy. The School of Rebellion isn¹t framed by competition but by solidarity. The School of Rebellion aims to provide a framework for children and young people to investigate the world, blossom their creativity and challenge conformity. The School of Rebellion is a challenge to the capitalist school, where education is an instrument to facilitate integration of the younger generation into the logic of the present system and bring about conformity. The School of Rebellion is inspired by the the practice of freedom, the means by which men and women deal critically and creatively with reality and discover how to participate in the transformation of their world (Freire). The capitalist school sees the student as wage-slave, client and consumer. The School of Rebellion sees students as agents of social transformation and liberation. The capitalist school aims to produce a work-ready, disciplined and commodity thirsty citizen. The School of Rebellion aims to encourage constructive, collective and organised rebellion. The Latin American writer, Eduardo Galeano, best summed up the fate of children under capitalism: Day after day, children are denied the right to be children. The world treats rich kids as if they were money, teaching them to act the way money acts. The world treats poor kids as if they were garbage, to turn them into garbage. And those in the middle, neither rich nor poor, are chained to televisions and trained to live the life of prisoners. The few children who manage to be children must have a lot of magic and a lot of luck. (Galeano, 2000) By coming to understand the world and recognising the need to change it, children and young people can challenge a career¹ centred education and become agents of change. Such agency opens a magical door to knowledge. This is what the School of Rebellion hopes for. A left initiative: The School of Rebellion was formed as part of Socialist Alternative's Marxism 2013 conference. It was organised by socialists and activists from a number of different organisations including: Socialist Alternative, the Revolutionary Socialist Party, Socialist Alliance, the Popular Education Network Australia (PENA), Teachers and Education Support Staff Alliance (TESSA) and non-aligned activists. Over the course of the Easter long-weekend, around 30 children attended the School which included a range of workshops, exploring visual arts, poetry, writing, reading, philosophy and social justice We hope to continue with the School and welcome others to get involved. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] why isn't there a British Syriza?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 13/03/13 10:41 AM, Gary MacLennan gary.maclenn...@gmail.com wrote: Well Dan Austerity is hitting the British very hard and of course it will hit it much harder. But I grant what you might call the objective conditions in Greece were and are more favourable to a regropupment. However even if we adapt a base-superstructure approach and prioritise the objective, the subjective factors still retain great importance. And it is here that I think the continued existence of the Leninist/Zinoviest illusions play a crucial role. I think you're obviously right Gary there's relatively objective and subjective conditions for any advance in socialist organisation, however we might argue about the relative balance. I don't think it's a wild hypothesis that if the SWP had unleashed the UK Socialist Alliance as a fully-fledged party at the time of the big 2003 anti-war movement and mass discontent with UK Labour, rather than shelve it for narrow organisational gain, then SA could have made big advances, and perhaps built on a firmer basis than the Respect experiment which was launched perhaps too late and built with the wrong method. I don't think it's so wild to think either that if the then-ISO in Australia had not slavishly followed every directive from London the Socialist Alliance in Australia could have had a smoother path. But on the other side of the dialectic there's been real objective limitations to the development of the Socialist Alliance here whatever anyone could have done differently. The other point I'd emphasise though is not to make a simplistic dichotomy good for all countries of broad party good, narrow Zinovievism bad, which isn't much better than the reverse of insisting everywhere on a narrow sub-brand of Trotskyism and tight organisational norms. The US ISO and the Australian SAlt are distinguished from the official IST franchises in not insisting on an international centre, and opening up in terms of dropping some shibboliths of high Cliffism as official parts of the program (state capitalism) which has attracted some established activists who certainly aren't cliffites. The US ISO has been re-evaluating the IS tradition on women's liberation, which SAlt could do more of, although they have been happy to be involved in the new Melbourne Feminist Action group, and so are apparently to some extent over an aversion to the F-word. Both groups are positive about SYZIZA, and the SAlt obit on Chavez was if anything a little hagiographic http://sa.org.au/index.php?option=com_k2view=itemid=7677%3AchavezItemid= 387. Socialist Alliance is having several main speakers at their upcoming Marxism conference, and so on. That's all a bit like IS groups in the 80s having something good to say about the Sandinistas or the German Greens and inviting other groups to their conferences (let alone criticising the SWP and dropping state cap as a point of agreement), which I don't think was the case. To tie this to the first point, I think in the absence of mass struggles that make a new party more obvious, narrow change in socialist groups, and narrow regroupment is a lot better than nothing, might be the most appropriate and realistic thing to do, and might lead to a better basis for future growth. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Pathfinder in Cuba
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I think it's far from the case that the US SWP has ever had some monopoly as the left group allowed to speak to youth in Cuba. I spent about 6 weeks there in 1993 along with someone else represented the Australian DSP and associated youth group Resistance in various meetings and visits with the UJC and other groups and institutions, and freely wandered around and talked to quite a few young people including the discontented. There's a regular brigade from Australia which several left groups participate in. On 11/03/13 4:07 AM, Ken Hiebert knhieb...@shaw.ca wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I see that among the books that Pathfinder is circulating in Cuba is Lenin's Final Fight, a collection of Lenin's writing of 1922-23 and My Life by Trotsky. I am happy to see those books available in Cuba. I am also intrigued to see the attention that the SWP is getting in Cuba and I wonder which other left groups might be granted the right to speak to young people in Cuba. I am sure there is no shortage of groups which would eagerly seize the opportunity if it were granted. ken h http://www.themilitant.com/2013/7710/771056.html http://www.themilitant.com/2013/7710/771055.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/nick.fredman%40op tusnet.com.au Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Hugo Chavez 1954-2013
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 7/03/13 5:35 AM, En Passant with John Passant en.pass...@bigpond.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Venezuela's president Hugo Chavez Frias has died in hospital after a long fight with cancer. Mike Gonzalez in Socialist Worker UK looks back at Chavez's life and ideas - and the Venezuela he leaves behind http://enpassant.com.au/2013/03/07/hugo-chavez-1954-2013/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/nick.fredman%40op tusnet.com.au Mike Gonzalez, typically, offers selectivity, simplicity and unsupported generalisations rather than a critical balance sheet of Chavez¹ legacy. ³No policy of redistribution². A pretty big claim when poverty rates have been slashed. And one somewhat undercut by the fact that the Gini index of income inequality has been lowered in Venezuela by considerably more than any other Latin American country http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=3016. Perhaps it¹s technically correct if there hasn¹t been a shift in wealth (as opposed to income) distribution or the profit share of income compared to the wages and social wage share of income. I¹ve looked for data on these two things but haven¹t been able to find it. Gonzalez anyway merely blithely asserts this strong claim. And when there¹s far more social control over the economy, and mass movements are far more assertive (despite the problems, see below) it¹s churlish at the least if not completely wrong to deny that there¹s been a shift, a redistribution, in economic, social and political power from the capitalists to the workers and poor. ³Some firms were nationalised². ³Some² is a bit imprecise, to say the least. ³Over 400² would be more accurate (a figure from 2010 I saw, so it could be well above that now). This isn¹t just the odd failing bank. Apart from the effective nationalisation of PDVSA, this includes foreign-owned petro-chemical processing, large swathes of steel, cement, food processing, super-markets etc. And what kind of socialist ³balance² sheet of Chavez¹ legacy, even a short one, can be remotely credible if it completely ignores examples of and struggles over workers control of nationalised industry in Venezuela. Chavez was generally if not consistently supportive of this, and workers control is of course contested and struggled over, and may even be going downhill as described in detail in an article on the struggles over Plan Socialist Guayana, workers control of big chunks of basic industry, at http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/7151. But to not even mention such dynamics is a massive failing of Gonzalez article. Gonzalez mention conversations with the discontented at street corners (including him or is this second or third hand?) and seems to think Chavez movement amounts to little without him. While discontent with bureaucratism and other failings are certainly there, Gonzalez¹ vague ³person in the street² evidence and Chavez as caudillo analysis rises little above that of the bourgeois media pundits who thought Chavez would lose the last presidential election. It¹s also undercut by the fact that PSUV swept the state elections in December despite the virtual absence of Chavez. Generally Gonzalez paints a simplistic dichotomy of discontented masses versus a bureaucratic machine. The masses, since around 2005 it appears, are in fact quite inert in Gonzalez¹ narrative. Perhaps he thinks they need an IST group to be a saviour from on high to deliver. He seems to have no idea of or is unwilling to critically analyse the messy reality of the struggles within the PSUV, within the broader pro-revolutionary camp (such as the critical position of the CP which has remained outside the PSUV), and the mass movements which are very much extant. It¹s particularly laughable that he claims there¹s no political debate among the left in Venezuela. And crucially, from what I¹ve seen from him, and all similar critics, he has no alternative economic and political plan for what revolutionaries could do and support in the context of a variegated but generally pro-socialist government within a capitalist economy and a capitalist world (and incidentally the important theoretical tool of a workers and farmers government, of which there¹s been rich discussion in the early Comintern and later among those broadly from the Trotskyist tradition such as in regards to revolutions in Cuba and Algeria is ignored by too many in debates on Venezuela, although see
Re: [Marxism] Australian IST group uncritically backs the SWP CC
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 19/02/13 10:33 AM, Gary MacLennan gary.maclenn...@gmail.com wrote: Who is in the IST? They're the mob who expelled what was to become the Socialist alternative are they not? So difficult to keep tabs on the groupuscle. comradely There's been a few combinations and permutations since the old ISO kicked out the core of what is Socialist Alternative in 1995 and a bit later blundered around in Socialist Alliance for a while, producing more splits, but the official IST group, which gathered a few splinters, is now Solidarity http://www.solidarity.net.au/. They do some good work here and there such as in refugee rights but Omar is quite right to imply that the healthier development has been by Socialist Alternative. The US ISO seems broadly similar. The neo-colonial mindset of those aping perspectives, opinions and tactics from the UK, or anywhere else, is almost enough to make one an Aussie nationalist. I think Dick Nichols coined the humorous term Pominternism. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Redfriars - the Public School of the Socialist Workers Party
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 18/02/13 12:44 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: I think the thing that works against this meme is the character of Tony Cliff himself, who is about as far from the Oxbridge snob image you can get. From what I have heard, he was a coarse, poorly-dressed, Jew who probably would have gotten a worse treatment at Oxford than Laural and Hardy. An immigrant Palestinian Jew at that. While probably also unfair, there's a couple of representations of the SWP as middle class or toffs that I've noticed in Brit pop culture, that are however funnier that this comic, which is rather silly and in pretty gross taste. In the early 80s classic BBC comedy The Young Ones, our heroes from Scumbag College somehow end up on University Challenge, against a team from Footlights College, Oxbridge. One of the latter is an obnoxiously braying Ben Elton, who haws daddy just bought me the Socialist Workers Party at one point before this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxA0a5G6ccg. In a reminder when I looked up this clip of the brilliant guest lineup on that show, the rest of the Oxbridge team are played by Hugh Laurie, Stephen Fry and Emma Thompson. And in one of Irvine Welsh's stories from the 90s, if I recall correctly an earnest SWP recruiter has come to the Edinburgh council flat of the druggie anti-heroes' father, as the latter is a good target as a community campaigner against drugs. The son mercilessly mocks the recruiter by wondering aloud why SWPers are all middle class teachers and social workers, while Tommy Sheridan's lot are more proletarian. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The lure of Keynesianism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 8/02/13 11:04 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: Here's the Australian Paul Krugman but not half as smart: http://johnquiggin.com/ No, make that not a tenth as smart. Maybe but in terms of Krugmanesque media profile Quiggin was purged from the Australian Financial Review (hardly a high profile organ anyway), nearly a year ago, as part of that paper's lurch to a more activist neo-liberalism (it used to be a bit leftish). The extent of this right turn is indicated by the humorous claim that Quiggin was an unedited blogger of Green Left Weekly polemics, GLW for some time being a mass media pundit metonym for extreme leftism. http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/04/03/fin-reviews-ideological-battle-quiggin- boned-from-op-ed-pages/ The AFR kept the sub-literate ex-Labor leader Mark Latham for whom Keynesianism would be a massive political advance. Now the only real Keynesian social democrat with a media perch is I think Ken Davidson: He remains a committed Keynesian and opponent of economic rationalism. In his spare time he is co-editor of Dissent magazine http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/by/kenneth-davidson. His profile is quite small, a weekly column and I've never seen him on the telly. All of which which shows how pathetically narrow our corporate media has become. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] unity on the left in Australia
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 6/02/13 2:02 PM, Michael Fisher michaelfish...@gmail.com wrote: The case against state cap is straightforward and conclusive. So doing it again wouldn't take much time. And it would help put the theory to rest at long last. Well good luck with that. Knock yourselves out if you want and you're allowed to, but I wouldn't be into a chest-beating keyboard shouting match that that can't lead to anything, as such a discussion would be here (I don't mean all discussion here are like that, just this would be). I'd be more interested in a written or real life discussion in the context of a unity process in which there's no expectation that there has to be an agreed line. This could serve some educational purpose. A few years ago we had a very good discussion in the Lismore branch of Socialist Alliance in which I presented what I think were fair and objective accounts of the different socialist theories of the USSR, and in which DSP members, several people with a background in the old CPA, new people and even a Workers Liberty member we happened to have up there debated the issues seriously without any pressure of having to indoctrinate anyone into a particular line. More importantly though anyway is working out a platform statement that says what it would be good to be clear on about Stalinism, more generally the pressures any revolution is under, and socialist democracy, without having to adhere to a specific theory. Socialist Alternative has adopted a new platform which is in this regard an unhappy amalgam that doesn't really explain anything. It seems to result from surgically reforming references to state capitalism and inserting a bit from the Transitional Program via the DSP/RSP program about Stalinism being politically pretty much like fascism, from http://www.sa.org.au/index.php?option=com_k2view=itemid=7613:sas-statemen t-of-principlesItemid=546 Stalinism is not socialism. We agree with Trotsky¹s characterisation of Stalin as the ³gravedigger² of the Russian Revolution. The political character of the regime established by the Stalinist bureaucracy in Russia most closely resembled that placed in power in capitalist countries by victorious fascist movements an atomised population ruled over by a ruthless bureaucratic dictatorship masquerading behind social demagogy. I'd submit that much better at being explanatory and being what we should be able to agree on is what's in the Socialist Alliance platform, at http://socialist-australia.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/problem-of-bureaucracy.h tml (note other parts of this platform were changed significantly from what's still online, at our recent conference) The Problem of Bureaucracy Apologists for capitalism have long devoted enormous efforts to arguing against socialism. They argue that it is a completely utopian exercise that flies in the face of human nature. They say that it will never work or that it will always lead to bureaucratic dictatorship. It is true that some revolutionary governments have degenerated into bureaucratic regimes, leading eventually to the restoration of capitalism. This highlights the importance of the struggle for democracy as a part of the struggle to build a new society. But it is also necessary to understand the objective conditions that contributed to such degenerations. Most revolutions in the twentieth century took place in poor countries devastated by war. They faced constant attacks from the imperialist powers that used war, terrorism and economic sabotage to undermine them. This created conditions favourable to the growth of bureaucracy. If these countries had received support and aid from richer countries, rather than hostility and aggression, things may have turned out completely differently. Thus, socialist revolutions in rich countries are important, not only for their own people but also for those of the poorer countries. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] unity on the left in Australia
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 5/02/13 8:30 PM, Tom O'Lincoln suar...@alphalink.com.au wrote: Welll it's not me who keeps bringing up Cuba in the context of Australian left unity. It's a concern of people from your tradition. I think you're quite wrong or greatly exaggerating there Tom. Besides the official correspondence I've seen dozens of discussions on Facebook and elists and participated in many, and Cuba has barely been mentioned, apart from considerable concern expressed months ago after the initial announcement of the SAlt-RSP fusion process by two former members of the RSP. The real topics of discussion have been how to express a program for Australia today, women's liberation, the environment movement, the role of elections, Reclaim the Night rallies and other directly relevant things. I think though you get my point that what has been dropped is a membership requirement to accept the theory of state capitalism as the public position of the organisation, as it's been removed by a large conference majority vote from the public position of the organisation. Of course this is quite different from individuals agreeing with or having any other opinion on it, and expressing it. Whether on Cuba today or the USSR in the past, discussions about this can be quite educational: much more so if different points of view are expressed. It's quite bizarre though if John Passant and others still think anything substantial can be built on the basis of agreement with state capitalism, or that state capitalist theory is a necessary pre-condition for a basically correct orientation to the class struggle. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Paul Le Blanc on the SWP crisis
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 5/02/13 12:45 AM, Anthony Hartin anthony.har...@desy.de wrote: I wasnt very happy with the people who expelled us in 1995, but its silly to hold life-long grudges. They (life-long grudges) should be reserved for the ruling class (and maybe certain football teams) only. The main problem is that everything gets overheated. Blame it on Zinoviev, or blame it on human nature, I dont know how you make people stay calm. It's pertinent that in recent informal discussions in Australia there's been a lot more acrimony between Socialist Alliance members coming from the DSP and RSP members than between the former and Socialist Alternative members. Although there are starting to be outbreaks of civility between the the two former factions of the DSP. A few years ago on the Greeen Left discussion list Chris Slee relayed an old split and its resolution which in the fact that the split and some of the hilariously abusive language used was forgotten a few years later is also encouraging. It'd be better to avoid the abuse and hyper-factionalised exaggeration of differences in the first place of course. It's worth noting that this re-unification pre-dated that of the associated factions of the FI, which Barry Sheppard details in the second volume of his memoir. Chris wrote: In 1972 there was a split in the Socialist Workers League (the name of the DSP at that time). It was linked to divisions in the Fourth International, of which the SWL was a sympathising organisation. One of the most contentious issues of the debate in the FI was the question of guerrilla warfare in Latin America. This should not have caused a split in Australia, but it did. To a large extent this was due to the FI's concept of international democratic centralism, which led people to feel they should take a position on tactical questions facing revolutionaries in other countries. In the aftermath of the split, relations between the SWL and CL were very acrimonious. As an example, I will quote from an article in the second edition of the Militant, the Communist League's newspaper. The Militant article is responding to criticisms made in Direct Action, the newspaper of the Socialist Workers League and the Socialist Youth Alliance, of the Palestinian commando attack on Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympic Games in Munich. The Militant article says: Direct Action, the Woman's Weekly of the Left, and mouthpiece of the centrist Socialist Youth Alliance, has done a characteristic job on the Palestinians with a black-bordered statement from something calling itself the 'Political Committee of the Socialist Workers (sic) League' - see DA 26. While of course allowing that the means to achieve self-determination is entirely up to the oppressed people themselves, SYA would be failing in its duty if it remained silent on this occasion. Then follows four columns of typical SYA critical support - 1% support and 99% criticism - the sort of unadulterated filth that offers comfort to the capitalists and their Zionist lackeys, that undermines and demoralises the struggle of the Palestinians, and leaves the Australian working class thoroughly confused and likely to remain as backward as ever. After this further evidence of SYA's continuing rightward momentum, following its attack on the IRA in DA 23, and its statement that the ALP can be reformed in DA 25, the Vietnamese can only be relieved that in the early terroristic period of their struggle, they did not have to tolerate the holier-than-thou carpings of bloated student parasites. Otherwise, we have no doubt that SYA would have advised them to put away the conspiratorial and elitist gun and get involved in mass action that the masses understand - like gay liberation demonstrations and high school strikes over long hair. Eventually most people on both sides of the split saw the need to re-unite. By 1977 relations beteen the CL and the SWL (by then called Socialist Workers Party) had improved sufficiently for the fusion process to begin. It was completed at the fusion conference in January 1978. This experience shows that it is sometimes possible to overcome even a very bitter split. For the sake of completeness I should mention that the fusion was not without problems. A minority of the CL (I think it was about a third of the members) voted against the fusion. Some of these people were later expelled from the SWP on various grounds, and all or most of the rest of them had left within a couple of years. Nevertheless the fusion was an important step forward for the left in Australia. Chris Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at:
Re: [Marxism] Paul Le Blanc on the SWP crisis
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 4/02/13 12:56 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: Ten years ago I was telling the DSP in Australia that Cannon was all wet. They had the same reaction to me. That Proyect is a petty bourgeois talk shop clown. Now you can find no reference to Cannon in their literature, a big step forward. Well we're still happy to corner the Australian market in selling the works of Cannon, with 8 titles here: http://www.resistancebooks.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords= cannonsearch_in_description=1x=72y=7categories_id=inc_subcat=1manufact urers_id=pfrom=pto=dfrom=dto= I don't think Cannon ever featured very highly in public DSP discourse, but on the other hand an article by Dave Holmes, 'An introduction to James P. Cannon' was only posted online in 2010, not long after the DSP effectively dissolved. So your head might have to spin a bit more: http://links.org.au/node/1848 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Paul Le Blanc on the SWP crisis
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 4/02/13 10:27 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: Munckton Fredman, do you think I was born yesterday? Jim Percy used to stay at my apartment in NYC. I know more about your movement than any other group on the left except the American SWP. I know pretty well what you know and what you think, having followed, and participated in, this list since 2001 (and BTW since you wonder having been a member of the DSP since 1990). I've no idea know what point you're now trying to make besides you know all about the DSP, which we knew. The point me and Stuart were making, pretty clearly I thought, was that you were wrong in asserting the DSP ever rejected Cannon in toto, as those from the DSP in Socialist Alliance and others in SA I gather generally still see value in Cannon, on party building as well as the interesting socialist and labour history, useful lessons on fighting fascism and so on in his writings, even if our views about party building and organisational forms have changed. Good on the Percy brothers to tell Barnes to take a hike--can't remember over which issue. Vietnam? The initiating issue I understand was Afghanistan around 1980, somewhat unfortunately, (the US SWP moving to oppose the Soviet intervention and expected its colonial subjects to do likewise as previously), but it soon became the mad turn to industry which the Australian SWP pretty quickly realised was mad, fortunately. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Paul Le Blanc on the SWP crisis
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 2/02/13 8:01 PM, Ratbag Media ratbagra...@gmail.com wrote: How do you KNOW, Omar, that this was the case? Corey's potted history of the Socialist Alliance, as part of his article on where to for the far left today, is a lot more accurate than that of most critics. But not unproblematic and it pretty much stops at 2005 since when there's been considerable development, and regrowth after crises of 2005-08. I won't go into the gory details I posted at Corey's posting of this article at http://www.facebook.com/tomjoad1917 But I'll repeat the positive conclusion: Socialist Alliance and Socialist Alternative are converging on ideas on organisation and program, albeit from different directions, and hopefully will continue to do so. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Paul Le Blanc on the SWP crisis
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 2/02/13 10:33 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: [Coey Oakley's article] seems to be close in spirit to what Le Blanc has said, which of course is an advance over Mick Armstrong's From Little Acorns article that I critiqued a few years ago. It would seem that the ISO and SAlt are moving away from the old-school Leninism of those days. We shall see. Incidentally the Mick Armstrong article was titled, 'From little things big things grow', presumably after the Kev Carmody/Paul Kelly song of the same name. I.e. While it presented a rather timeless Leninism, it referenced a special moment in Australian labour history, the late 60s stock workers strike and land rights struggle of the Gurindji people - and the solidarity movement with it, in which the CPA and and unions they led or influenced on this played a leading role (see e.g. http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/11021 or a longer treatment Terry Townsend's book on The Aboriginal Struggle and the Left not online but available from http://www.resistancebooks.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=809) The song goes: Gather round people let me tell you're a story An eight year long story of power and pride British Lord Vestey and Vincent Lingiarri Were opposite men on opposite sides Vestey was fat with money and muscle Beef was his business, broad was his door Vincent was lean and spoke very little He had no bank balance, hard dirt was his floor From little things big things grow From little things big things grow Gurindji were working for nothing but rations Where once they had gathered the wealth of the land Daily the pressure got tighter and tighter Gurindju decided they must make a stand They picked up their swags and started off walking At Wattie Creek they sat themselves down Now it don't sound like much but it sure got tongues talking Back at the homestead and then in the town From little things big things grow From little things big things grow Vestey man said I'll double your wages Seven quid a week you'll have in your hand Vincent said uhuh we're not talking about wages We're sitting right here till we get our land Vestey man roared and Vestey man thundered You don't stand the chance of a cinder in snow Vince said if we fall others are rising From little things big things grow From little things big things grow Then Vincent Lingiarri boarded an aeroplane Landed in Sydney, big city of lights And daily he went round softly speaking his story To all kinds of men from all walks of life And Vincent sat down with big politicians This affair they told him is a matter of state Let us sort it out, your people are hungry Vincent said no thanks, we know how to wait From little things big things grow From little things big things grow Then Vincent Lingiarri returned in an aeroplane Back to his country once more to sit down And he told his people let the stars keep on turning We have friends in the south, in the cities and towns Eight years went by, eight long years of waiting Till one day a tall stranger appeared in the land And he came with lawyers and he came with great ceremony And through Vincent's fingers poured a handful of sand From little things big things grow From little things big things grow That was the story of Vincent Lingairri But this is the story of something much more How power and privilege can not move a people Who know where they stand and stand in the law From little things big things grow From little things big things grow From little things big things grow From little things big things grow Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [UCE] Re: Paul Le Blanc on the SWP crisis
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 3/02/13 5:38 PM, Alan Bradley alanb1...@yahoo.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Louis Proyect Of course, it would be great if some Leninist sect ever got large enough to elect a parliamentarian who votes for war credits, as Peter Camejo once related to me with an ear-to-ear grin. Leaving aside the question of voting for war credits, there have been any number of 'Leninist sects' that have had parliamentarians elected. Apparently the Socialist Party in Australia and their local councillor Steve Jolly have spent a lot of time pouring over the minutes of the Fremantle City Council, where the Socialist Alliance has the longer-standing of its two councillors, Sam Wainwright. Perhaps they're hoping Sam will vote to invade Perth. Or that now Sue Bolton won't organise a general strike against the Moreland Council army crossing the Merri Creek to attack the Yarra municipality. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Mangling the Issues: Callinicos, ³Leninism!#¼óuÈ and Austerity
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == full: http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=5319 A generally good piece but on one issue Louis and Pham's advocacy of Owen Jones' networked politics (how very 1994) including Labourites as some kind of contemporary answer to the party question is deeply misguided, as I detail in the comments section of this article. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] From the crisis in the SWP via 1981 to Socialist Alternative in Brisbane today
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 13/01/13 6:29 AM, En Passant with John Passant en.pass...@bigpond.com wrote: A couple of points. Socialist Alternative is not part of the IS Tendency. It has just merged with the Revolutionary Socialist Party and is in unity discussions with Socialist Alliance. Part of its organisational response has been to allow members to disagree publicly with the organisation. Unlike the SWP and like Richard Seymour a majority supports SYRIZA. Its membership includes not only young people, but older people like me. The young people attracted to the organisation aren't being chewed up. Its analysis of what is possible is realistic, not hyper-activist. Indeed the other main radical left organisations in Australia recognise the ability to attract young comrades and develop them as one of the real strengths of Socialist Alternative. Indeed, indeed: I've been impressed with the sizeable SAlt group at Melbourne University where I've been working for a couple of years. But a bit more significant than having very active students, important as that is, is that in my impression the group has consolidated a layer of young and youngish workers playing good roles in a range of unions and campaigns: without meaning to be patronising, this more extensive real-world mixing I think is a material basis for the SAlt becoming more open organisationally and politically, including dropping the state cap shibbolith, even if the latter is to John's displeasure :) Sensible things have even been said about Venezuela from some, and not just from the ex-DSP members who've joined. A definite advantage as John says is also not being part of the IST or any neo-colonialist Pomintern. One general point from the SWP crisis is the dangers of hubris and arrogance on the part of a small revolutionary group, whether in this case in relation to tight leadership control of all discussion, or the crazy idea that allegations of a serious crime should be investigated in-house. I think it's tricky to balance the necessary energy and enthusiasm with the sense of proportion and even humility also needed to build socialist politics in a relatively stable advanced capitalist country. The latter aspects are very important in a unity discussion in which those from all sides need to understand they don't know everything, haven't done everything right and can learn from others. In relation to Louis' standard response that a broad party is the answer: well yes compared with the narrow competing grouplets deriving from the 1960s-70s, but it has to be more concrete than that. What's on the agenda in Australia right now is revolutionary regroupment, even if we also need to be positioned to relate to possible broader moves to the left from sections of the ALP, Greens or union left. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Venezuela
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 11/12/12 6:16 PM, Gregory Adler gregadler...@gmail.com wrote: I remember a Socialist Alliance event a few years back at which DSP supporters were screaming in my face demanding that i declare my position on Venezuela and Chavez. I attempted to reply in terms similar to Louis but not as articulately and quite as fully formed as he puts it here. I was also disadvantaged by the excited figures jumping up and down in front of me and the sprays of spiitle that came from their demands... The recent news on Chavez' health is bad and raises a danger to his achievements. The defence of them is not helped by demands of declaration of socialist or not whether the motives of the demander are a sort of maximum Chavism or Simon simple revolutionism that requires pure socialism before offering support. Greg your silly caricature of debate in Socialist Alliance isn't helpful either. People who actually know anything about Latin America know that the most knowledgeable and careful commentators in Australia have for the past decade and more been those associated with SA and Green Left such as Fred Fuentes, Stuart Munckton and Tamara Pearson or those associated with SA when Greg pretends he had such a terrible time such as Roberto and Jorge Jorquera. On the substantive issue there's of course a big distinction between a socialist government, and the gains in the material position and social and economic power of workers, peasants and the poor it has facilitated, including important experiments of workers managements of nationalised industries and of communal democracy, and the possibility of anything like a socialist society in a single relatively underdeveloped country. Such a contradiction can't continue indefinitely and apart from generalities like building the mass organisations and movements and trying to replace the capitalist state with a new commune state, each particular step in trying to manage the contradiction in the interests of our side probably isn't so immediately obvious especially from afar. What the ultra-left on this question such as the person who started this thread never answer or possibly even consider is what they would do differently if part of a such workers government in charge of such a capitalist state and economy. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Jill Meagher, Reclaim the Night and sectarianism (or not)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 1/12/12 9:42 AM, Philip Ferguson philipfergus...@gmail.com quoted Jill Bluestocking: This is not to attack or undermine the progressives who participated in Reclaim, either as organizers or attendees. I was one. There are many potential advantages to participation: offering left-wing ideological leadership to a diffuse movement, learning on the ground about the social background and political orientation of the attendees, and so on. But there are also serious dangers. Leftists cannot approach such movements with uncritical support, in the hope that we will win people to leftism by our sheer enthusiasm for their cause. I met Louise O'Shea, the author of the article which started this thread, yesterday when she and two other Socialist Alternative members attended a Socialist Alliance educational day in Melbourne and played what I'd characterise as a critical but constructive role in the discussion there. I don't think Louise was aware of the sharp comments I'd made here when she initiated a lunch-time discussion with me about this debate (the Salt comrades do seem to be following the debate that's began around proposals I've made for SA (http://alliancevoices.blogspot.com.au/2012/11/proposed-amendments-to-towar ds.html) I don't want to verbal Louise but it was pretty clear to me she was adamant there was no possibility of any progressive content in any events sparked (an initial peace march) or boosted (Reclaim the Night) by Jill Meagher's rape and murder, because the corporate media totally dominated the agenda (and in this pretty much saying the the social background and political orientation of the attendees as Jill puts it was irrelevant) and defended abstention by the socialist left from any such events, including a refusal to attend them. This is presumably the opinion of at least the majority of the Salt leadership. While Jill Bluestocking is defending Louise's article, whatever that means (defending her right to publish it? That's hardly in dispute), she's putting forward the opposite political line, of participation. And one that, in stressing that involvement should be on a critical and socialist basis, should be applied to any union and social movement campaign (however we might debate what that means in practice in particular instances). The implication is also of course that there is progressive content in these activities. It's positive that members or soon to be members of Salt have been open about there differences (if not always noting that these are differences). I tried to point out to Louise that her article displayed a more general problem that I often get annoyed about: the far left too often projects a simplistic, conspiracy theory view of the corporate media as a singular enterprise run from Rupert Murdoch's office, and which decides in a board meeting an agenda for each issue appropriate to Rupert's class interests and beams this into the uncritical brains of working class dupes. Therefore consciousness can be read off from the mass media. But as our own experience in workplaces, communities and movements, and decades of empirical media studies research into the structures and practices of the media and into how audiences react to media messages, should tell us that while ruling class interests structure and limit the general outlines of media discourse, actual messages are much more varied, complex and contradictory that the immediate bourgeois interests of the day, and that audiences always critically react to media messages. A concrete analysis of the issue in dispute should tell us that due to decades of women's rights campaigning, however quiescent in recent years, large numbers of people are aware of, and/or are open to, broader and more radical interpretations of violence against women, than those dominating the corporate media. This is reflected in the focus and views of the attendees and the organisers of the recent events (regardless of the single instance of one organiser of one Reclaim the Night rally thanking the police on Face Book, a near irrelevancy again exaggerated and taken out of context in Jill Bluestocking's post). Louise, in sharp contradiction to the purported focus of her political tradition, is obstinately refusing to recognise relevant social and political processes from below. Yesterday there was another response to Louise, by Kamala Emmanuel, posted at http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/52964. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Jill Meagher and sectarianism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 26/11/12 11:37 AM, Philip Ferguson philipfergus...@gmail.com wrote: Nick Fredman, having said, Quite frankly Phil, what the fuck would you know? then accuses me of strident judgment about tactics in another country?... So why is it that this murder has generated so much activity? It's question like that which the Louise O'Shea article posed and tried to answer. And the response is emotion and moral outrage that anybody raise such issues and not simply fall in behind the programme. The only emotion on display from me is annoyance that you, and Louise O'Shea, have refused to engage with socialists and feminists actually involved in this issue and that you continue to do so by totally side-stepping my point. I didn't express any problem with a questioning of the selective concern of some bourgeois politicians and pundits, but with your ignorant assertion that: the politics of women's liberation as an *emancipatory movement* are noticeably absent from the mobilisations around the murder Which you manage to decide without reference to any first account of the mobilisations or the views of organisers or participants. What evidence have you got that any reactionary agenda has been at all advanced by these mobilisations? On the contrary, the same feminists who were involved in the Reclaim the Night rally quickly went on to organise a pro-choice rally on Saturday to defend an abortion clinic against Christian loonies http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/52912 and are planning to reinvigorate International Women's Day. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Jill Meagher, Reclaim the Night and sectarianism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 24/11/12 11:08 AM, Philip Ferguson philipfergus...@gmail.com wrote: Indeed, I'd say the politics of women's liberation as an *emancipatory movement* are noticeably absent from the mobilisations around the murder Quite frankly Phil, what the fuck would you know? Very little, judging from your post, which mentions nothing any of the organisers have said anywhere. Well you wouldn't get anything about the mobilisations themselves from Louise O'Shea's article, which in 3000 words manages to spend a sentence on anything any of the organisers have said, all of which does is dishonestly imply a focus of praising the police because of comments one organiser made on Facebook, which were criticised, as has been pointed out here. How can O'Shea possibly pretend to present an honest account of the politics of a rally without mentioning anything about the publicity, demands, banners, chants, material handed out, or the people who spoke let alone anything they said? Am I the only one who thinks that a denunciation of class collaboration when one employee of an organisation expresses the upset of the whole organisation after another employee of the organisation has been raped and murdered, is a little bit mad? I'll continue to be supportive of unity discussions between Socialist Alliance and Socialist Alternative, and the general contours of the disagreement around feminism are not unexpected, but I was quite taken aback by the crudity of this article. Maybe as John Passant points out of it provokes discussion inside SAlt then it could be a good thing. And maybe Phil you should also pay some attention to those socialists who've been involved in the rallies, or at least attended them, before rushing to a strident judgment about tactics in another country? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Cuban hurricane preparation
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Here's something with comparison to the US, Haiti, New Zealand earthquake etc, by Reihana Mohideen who has an engineering background: Disaster management: the Cuban way¹ http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/45450 Also on sustainable recovery from disaster: Cuba: Eco-materials, hurricanes and solidarity http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/40766 Also with comparison to Haiti: The Rudd government must help Cuba and Haiti http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/40323 On 6/11/12 12:00 PM, Andrew Pollack acpolla...@gmail.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I KNOW I've read articles about the superior preparation in Cuba for hurricanes, the combination of central and local efforts which mean far fewer, if any, people die during such events. But I can't remember where I read, it and we need to get this word out ASAP. Anyone know? PS: see my article on Sandy at http://socialistaction.org/2012/11/the-hurricanes-debris-climate-change-inequa lity/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/nick.fredman%40op tusnet.com.au Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Socialist Alliance's 10-point plan
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Public ownership and democratic control of energy, transport and vehicle industries and guaranteed retraining and jobs having nothing to do with the working class obviously for the semantically obsessed. On 2/11/12 9:56 AM, audrada...@aol.com audrada...@aol.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Now is a very good time to bring this plan up once more: Socialist Alliance's 10-point plan for climate action http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/52006 __ Now is a very good time to wonder what kind of plan from a socialist organization for climate action fails to mention the working class? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/nick.fredman%40op tusnet.com.au Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Excise Labor's 'left'
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 31/10/12 9:29 PM, En Passant with John Passant en.pass...@bigpond.com wrote: If you want a new and democratic society where people come before profit, if you think we need a revolution of the mass of workers to win that, then you should consider joining Socialist Alternative in Australia. Unlike Labor and its puppy dog left, we welcome refugees; we don't demonise them, imprison them indefinitely in concentration camps or deport them to possible death, torture or imprisonment. http://enpassant.com.au/2012/10/31/excise-labors-left/ From John's post: In Moreland in Victoria Sue Bolton, a recognised activist and campaign and socialist, won a seat on the Council with over 11% of the vote the highest of any candidate in her ward. Stephen Jolly retained his seat on the Yarra Council. Jolly pointed out that all the socialist candidates in Melbourne were either elected (Socialist Alliance's Bolton and the Socialist Party's Jolly) or had very big swings toward them (the other Socialist Party candidates in Yarra). He actually didn't seem to notice Socialist Alliance's Sue Bull who scored 8.2% or over 10 000 votes for the mayoral race in the industrial city of Geelong. I think this'd have to be the highest absolute number of votes for a socialist candidate for a long time, maybe since the CPA's Fred Patterson's election to the Queensland parliament in the 50s. Hopefully these are indeed straws in the wind. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Socialist Production in Venuzela
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 22/10/12 8:13 AM, audrada...@aol.com audrada...@aol.com wrote: http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/52575 This is article is the same kind of dewy-eyed bullshit that social democrats have been producing since Huck was a pup. There is nothing whatsoever in this article that indicates anything going on in Venezuela having to do with socialism: the transfer of power to the working class. I find it really funny that McGill managed to interview three managers but no workers. Did the workers, by any chance, elect those managers? From my reading one of them at least sounded like an activist elected as a manager, but the article didn't make this clear. In any case rather than spouting rhetoric maybe you should study the issue and make some informed comment. You'd know then that the Plan Socialist Guyana does include the not only the election of managers but also a strong role of workers assemblies in enterprise management and national planning. Maybe you should start by actually reading this article which makes the latter points clear. Of course there's debate, criticisms, different forces and viewpoints, contradictions, steps forward and back. But we need to understand this and when appropriate criticise it from an informed rather than an ignorant, sloganeering position. You could start with a detailed treatment at: http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/7151 ...With the norms and rules agreed for the functioning of workers councils and other bodies, the timetable for the implementation of worker control in Ferrominera was, first, for the diffusion of norms in the first months of 2012, followed by an internal electoral process for workers councils and implementation of the worker council model by June 2012. Adarfio argued that the workers councils will allow internal democracy in the company, the democratisation of decision-making, by making decisions in councils and [worker] assemblies, all of the decisions: over production, consumption and distribution inside the industry. He said workers councils will be formed by spokespeople elected in worker assemblies, which will become the decision-making bodies in the company. To avoid professionalisation of spokespeople, positions will be rotational and held for one year, and can be recalled by the workers assembly during that time.[xxiv] As of June 2012, the spokespeople¹s elections have taken place in Sidor, CVG Venelum (aluminium) and Cavelum (aluminium), with the norms and rules still being established in advance of elections in the other CVG companies... ...An argument made by some leftist currents is that worker control as conceived within the PGS is flawed as it is formed in conjunction with the state, given that the influence of the government and state-appointed managers in the industries can lead to a bureaucratisation of moves toward full worker control. When the PGS was launched, Orlando Chirino, a leader of the National Union of Workers (UNETE) union federation, urged workers to fight to make sure nationalised companies don¹t continue on as capitalist companies in the hands of the state, and that worker control is not limited to the workers participating in the election of managers. Etc etc. And by the way, if you still believe the Chavez government needs to be overthrown, what's your alternative economic strategy? I've never seen anything resembling such a thing from leftist super-critics. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Chavez re-elected
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 9/10/12 12:59 PM, Stuart Munckton stuartmunck...@gmail.com wrote: The article starts with this statement: *Hugo Chavez has been re-elected as president of Venezuela with just under 55 percent of the total votethe lowest since he first took the presidency in 1998 writes Mike Gonzalez in Socialist Workerhttp://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=29728 ...The problem is less exactly what Gonzales says, but what he doesn't -- what he leaves out. Much the same line as the Gonzalez article posted here by John Passant of Socialist Alternative is evident in the article with which Socialist Alternative's website itself covered the election, by Carlos Miranda from International Viewpoint: http://sa.org.au/index.php?option=com_k2view=itemid=7510:the-president-an d-the-bureaucracy-in-venezuelaItemid=387 The Miranda article probably ties Chavez more explicitly to the bureaucratic elements, claiming that Affection for Chavez, who embodies the Bolivarian people, is now marred by the management of the bureaucracy protected by the President himself. Stuart has in recent posts, not to mention the extensive coverage in Green Left, demonstrated that things are a bit more complicated. In regard to the discussions happening on the Australian far left, in which it's being broached that questions such Cuba and Venezuela shouldn't be barriers to unity or the main questions for the radical left, but should be discussed publicly, perhaps Stuart or someone more knowledgeable than me could usefully respond to this article. A response could also take up what I'd think is the other dubious claim in the article, that, In the absence of a break with the logic of capital, the main beneficiaries of oil revenues have been the local bourgeoisie and sectors of multinational corporations. While this isn't very clear, I'd be surprised if it were literally the case, in the sense of the majority of the surplus value of oil production going to capital or there being any increases in this share. For example income inequality as a whole within the country as measured by the Gini coefficient has fallen quite a bit in Venezuela absolutely and in comparison to other Latin America as can be seen in the online tables available from: http://websie.eclac.cl/sisgen/ConsultaIntegrada.asp?idAplicacion=1idTema=3 63idioma=I It would be interesting to see how the split between wages and profit share of national income has faired in Venezuela over the past decade, in comparison to for example Australia where the split has been steadily titling more towards profits since the 80s. I couldn't find any data on this from a quick search. If this like the Gini coefficient has improved in Venezuela (as well as unemployment, and poverty levels, and health indicators etc. etc.), this wouldn't prove the socialist nature of the government or its program, as such things things improved in Western countries in the social democratic 50s and 60s, albeit in a much easier context to do so. In any case a clear empirical picture of such things would be better than the sloppy, evidence-free formulations in the IV article. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] More on the Australian merger
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 25/09/12 8:29 AM, Marce Cameron marcecame...@gmail.com wrote: From John Percy's Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/john.percy... Marce Cameron: Hi John, last years' Socialist Alternative conference also featured John Pilger and various other international guest speakers. Why didn't you describe that conference as excellent in [the RSP's paper] Direct Action and urge people to attend? Is it because they're given you a platform and that changes everything? Of course they've invited you to participate: you're about to join them. Calling it a merger is a joke when they're about 15 times the size of what's left of the RSP. The reality is you're joining them. Marce Cameron: Why don't you resume writing for Green Left Weekly, a paper that supports the socialist governments of Vietnam, Venezuela and Cuba, rather than endorsing the politics of an organisation that doesn't recognise socialist revolutions? Bizarre! Well there's nothing from our end to stop the comrades speaking at and going to Marxism, joining SAlt, *and* writing for Green Left. The current SAlt members shouldn't be down on the latter either because Green Left actually did write a positive if not effusive report on Marxism 2012 at http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/50677 particularly noting it's openess. Marce you need to see the dynamic. I went to the UK SWP's Marxism in 1993, which was maybe 5 times the size of the Australian Marxism 2012 (perhaps double on a per capita basis). There were some interesting talks including by Tony Cliff and a clear reflection socialist organisation of admirable size and enthusiasm, but absolutely narrow IST politics and nothing else. No other UK groups and only SWP clones from around the world. SAlt to their credit are discussing things with and inviting people with very different ideas on Cuba, Venezuela and the oppressed nations generally, and possibly substantial differences on the Australian working class and the Labor Party although the experience of the first years of the Socialist Alliance was that the latter issues could be worked out in some detail with relative ease. They're talking to and inviting the groups from the Fourth International and others such as the Labour Party Pakistan. The UK SWP, the former mothership of SAlt comrades, seems to be changing a bit in recent years somewhere publishing I recall Dianan Raby on Lating America and their leading blogger Richard Seymore writing sensible things about Syriza, opposing the official line and the activity of the SWP's group in Greece. I'd like to have something like the old, DSP, with a broader revolutionary program but positive towards Cuba and Venezuela, with a tougher name like the SWP, with 10 000 members and leading unions, mass movements for refugees and climate action and in parliament. I'd also like a couple of ponies for my kids and somewhere inexpensive to keep them in the city, and I'd quite fancy an electric, solar-powered speedboat to tool up and down the Yarra in. But obliged to exist in the world as it is I think what we've talking about is a positive development. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Re. RSP, Socialist Alternative
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hi Marce, leaden sarcasm rather than subtle irony seems more the norm in internet discourse. I was about to ask on the Green Left list if you were waxing ironic or not. You do point to some important issues but there seems to be some positive movement and hopefully will be more. On 17/09/12 9:23 AM, Marce Cameron marcecame...@gmail.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Louis, forgive my Australian sense of humour, let me clarify: my post is fictitious sarcasm. That's why I wrote at the end: if only this were true. Marce Cameron Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/nick.fredman%40op tusnet.com.au Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] How to read Zizek
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 15/09/12 6:03 AM, Lenin's Tomb leninstombb...@googlemail.com wrote: Regarding the scene from Apocalypse Now, I believe John Pilger's book Distant Voices relates an attempt to get the writer and director to cough up about the factual basis for the limb amputations. As I recall, the reply from the screenwriter consisted of a series of staccato anti communist statements in block capitals. Thanks for that choice Pilger tidbit which I'd forgotten. I suppose in the context of the movie the ravings of Colonel Kurtz won't necessarily be taken as true, and like Conrad's original novel the 'heart of darkness' might be variously read by readers/viewers as located in western imperialism, savage natives and/or human nature generally. But presumably some viewers will take the story as true. The Pilger bit is on pp. 89-90 of the 1992 edition of Distant Voices: That Coppola had reduced the Vietnamese and Montenard peoples to stereotypes of Oriental viciousness was generally passed over by the admiring critics. The film claimed that Vietcong soldiers had hacked off the arms of children to discourage a vaccination program, implying this was one of the reasons the United States had invaded Vietnam. When an American journalist wrote to the screenwriter, John Milius, asking where the severed arms story had originated, Milius returned her letter with a US Special Forces death's head drawing on it, together with the words: We must burn them, We must incinerate them, Press after press, Pen after pen, Pencil after pencil, No dialogue with communist criminals That Zizek blithely and without attribution refers to some shit from a movie as not only true but exemplary of revolutionary strategy seems sadly typical. I'll all for ideology critique and in this taking media and culture seriously and in a dialectical rather than reductionist way but find that Zizek too often plays empty deconstructionist and contrarian games rather than do this. By the way on Vietnam movies (i.e. movies by Americans agonising about themselves with some reference to their near obliteration of Vietnam), the first one that seemed to give any real voice to the Vietnamese revolution, or to any Vietnamese characters at all probably, seems to be the mid-80s comedy Good Morning Vietnam (and perhaps it was the only such movie to do this until Philip Noyce's brilliant adaptation of The Quiet American, delayed as it was by 9/11 until 2004). Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Why I am joining Socialist Alternative in Australia (Omar Hassan)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 14/09/12 11:24 AM, Omar Hassan sherr...@gmail.com wrote: Our strategy has left us as by far the biggest group leading many of the biggest campaigns in Australia Omar, I appreciate your comradely and comprehensive response. I'm encouraged by your statements and that of others in SAlt (e.g. at http://www.facebook.com/jorgeandresjorquera) about Cuba and will be interested to see how such issues are negotiated in practice. I agree it's beholden for anyone claiming to make an accurate assessment of Socialist Alternative to read material, go along to meetings, talk to comrades and so on. Too often members of competing groups (what are we competing for, a medal?) rely on third-hand accounts and assumptions to denounce others variously as Stalinists or ultra-left sectarians and so on. I haven't been to *any* SAlt events in the 2.5 years I've lived in Melbourne (the previous 13 in Lismore with no other left groups), mostly because I work full-time, have two small children and and a nearly full-time shift-working partner, so very little time, but also because I'm sure I have some hang-over from the rather nasty inter-left relationships of the 90s. My loss perhaps, but it was surely your loss when for example *no* other members of any other left group came to the last Socialist Alliance meeting I made it to a few weeks ago, a great discussion with Quebec student leader Guillaume Legault (I understand on the other hand there was a joint campus meeting with him in Canberra). That is, unless you do think you are actually it (which you presumably don't if there's serious discussion with a small group like the RSP), the admonition to get to know other left groups surely goes both ways. I don't think you have for example an accurate picture of Socialist Alliance at all. This has not been a picture of remorseless decline over 18 years as you seem to think. SA grew from around 500 at its formation in 2001 to a high of over 1100 in 2005. Yes it's shrunk in the splits since then but I understand it's still something like 600. Yes probably less active on the whole than SAlt members but not insignificant. There's also hundreds of Green Left subscribers, some important activists, who are not SA members. SA's draft what we stand for type statement: http://socialist-australia.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/towards-socialist-austra lia.html is firmly within the Marxist and revolutionary tradition, although in my opinion it could be more explicitly so, and SA conducts plenty of Marxist education and discussion. I don't think you know much if anything about the left in not unimportant centres like Geelong, Newcastle, Woollangong, Hobart, Cairns and Armidale where SAlt doesn't exist and where SA has active branches, (SA has some organised presence in a few other places including Darwin). I understand that in Adelaide where SA has a vibrant branch and works with others in a Left Unity group SAlt only has a couple of members (perhaps I'm mistaken). I think the same is the case for outer western Sydney and Melbourne. In regard to campaigns, SA members play leading roles in climate action groups and the anti-CSG campaign, whereas in my observation no-one from any IS group has ever been involved in any environmental campaigns (perhaps I'm mistaken). In regard to publications, GreenLeft.org.au, with an Alexa ranking of 207,222 and often in the Hitwise list of the top 10 political sites in Australia, appears considerably more read than sa.org.au, with an Alexa ranking of 3,313,822. There's also some important members from and links with migrant left groups such as Tamils, Sudanese and Latin Americans, which is surely a historic weakness of the post-60s far left in Australia. I don't say any of this to brag, as I'm far from sanguine about SA, but to encourage you and other SAlt members to consider what you aren't yet and don't know. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Why I am joining Socialist Alternative in Australia
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 13/09/12 9:06 AM, En Passant with John Passant en.pass...@bigpond.com wrote: Jorge says of his reasons for joining Socialist Alternative: 'It's the one organisation in Australia profiling revolutionary politics and prioritising the theoretical discussions of Marxism that need to be put upfront in this period.'... I think Jorge's action in joining Socialist Alternative (of which I am a member) and his reasons for doing so raise important questions for the left in Australia and I look forward to comradely discussion and debate on the issue. This is of some interest to me. If I remember correctly Jorge is almost exactly the same age as me, within a week. We met when we were 18 or 19, although he was already an established SWP leader and an important student activist nationally and I was to hang around the left for 2 or 3 more years before joining the by then DSP. We worked together in the Resistance national office in 1994. Anyway, an understandable move, although I'd disagree strongly that SAlt is the one organisation doing as Jorge says. There are about 6 others. In the small universe of the radical left I'd say roughly SALt is strong in inner parts of the bigger cities, but doesn't exist in quite a few important outer suburban areas, state capitals and regional cities where for example Socialist Alliance is active. I'm impressed by SAlt's activity around refugee rights and Palestine but consider the complete abstention of the IS tendency around environmental campaigns, since the late 80s in my observation, rather appalling. In regard to Paul Le Blanc joining the US ISO, for one thing I have the impression from comparing what we stand for pages at least that SAlt is these days more upfront than the US ISO in denouncing the Cuban revolution as state capitalist. While errors, and sheer ignorance, about Cuba and Latin America generally, isn't, or shouldn't be, central, it is off-putting. To me and a whole lot of people in and around the radical left. Hopefully we can get beyond the mind-numbing reductionism that a particular position on Cuba necessarily equates to a particular position on the class struggle in Australia. I'd agree Jorge's decisions raises important questions and hopefully can promote fruitful discussion, including within Socialist Alternative. If comrades in the latter group can be prodded to think more about the utility of a less narrowly-defined basis with which socialists should organise, it'd be a good thing. At the moment the far left is Australia is less than the sum of its parts. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What's a good novel for 13-14 year olds?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Not fiction but maybe one for the history teachers, and parents, and maybe for a younger demographic, but I'm becoming quite a fan of the books and BBC version of Horrible Histories, along with our 8-year-old (and somewhat less appropriately, given how gory it is, our not quite 4-year-old), particularly the often hilarious songs in the TV version. Not particularly radical overall, apart from the need for potential Marxists to get a good sense of history, but there's a few slyly subversive lyrics, e.g. We're just listened to 'The four Georges': Born to rule over you/Georges 4, 3, 1 and 2/You had to do what we told you to/Just because our blood was blue...People hated us, and we hated them too etc. The most subversive songs are: Luddites http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgBiGrpWNQU William Wallace, Scottish rebel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g61xASD-24 Suffragette city http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VamBADwizd8 Boudicca http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LhT7rCC6O8 Not at all radical but hilarious are the ancient Celtic hip hop boast battle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXgtZbrcxBQ and the Viking soft rock anthem http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qSkaAwKMD4 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What's a good novel for 13-14 year olds?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 17/08/12 3:45 AM, Carl G. Estabrook galli...@illinois.edu wrote: Excellent suggestions on this thread so far. Two YA novels where the anti-capitalist themes are not explicit but certainly present - they were popular with my home-schooled grandson at that age: William Golding, *Lord of the Flies* Lord of the Flies anti-capitalist? Even reading it for school around age 14 it was obviously about the nastiness of human nature. So much was of the curriculum was come to think of it. Animal Farm. Day of the Triffids. A bit later King Lear. No wonder we became morose and listened to The Smiths. A more positive suggestion is The Grapes of Wrath. We've just had the Woody Guthrie centenary and listening to his songs springs to mind as a class activity. I'd say The Dispossessed and Woman on the Edge of Time would be great for an older group (we did Le Guin's The Left Hand of Darkness during a term on sci-fi in year 11, when I turned 16). Marge Piercy's golem/cyborg parallel novel, Body of Glass and her French revolution novel, City of Darkness, City of Light are also probably good for radical ideas for later teens. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What's a good novel for 13-14 year olds?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 17/08/12 10:33 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: https://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2004/09/07/lord-of-the-flies/ Louis mention of Graham Greene in the above reminded me that we did The Quiet American also when I was 15 or 16, sparking some great class discussion. We also did Dario Fo's play Accidental Death of an Anarchist at that time and had to organise a performance of a bit of it in class in small groups. One group did a great interpretation of the execution of the arrested anarchist in the police station, not in the actual play, with different versions representing the later official police version, what actually happened etc. But my group got the best marks for interpreting the play by barely starting a section, tossing the books aside, declaring ourselves on strike and denouncing the teacher and the education system. That English teacher was the best teacher I've ever had. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Australian Jews debate anti-refugee racism and Islamophobia of Australian Jewish News editor
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == There's a good summary of this controversy in Haaretz, see below. The Australian Jewish Democratic Society has posted the letters pages of the newspaper in question, which feature some good responses and some appalling racism: http://www.ajds.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Library1.pdf http://www.ajds.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Library2.pdf A few reports on this have featured some good comments from refugee rights activist Arnold Zable. A lot of activists would have seen his brother Benny, at many rallies in Australia and indeed around the world, as he's the guy who been getting up in the grim reaper gear atop mock nuclear waste, or oil, barrels, as appropriate, since the 80s. From Haaretz: Australian Jews blast publisher's attack on illegal immigrants, Muslims Robert Magid, publisher of Australia's main Jewish newspaper, caused an uproar for writing that asylum seekers are driven by economic opportunities and Muslim immigrants increase the risk of terror attacks. By Dan Goldberg 'The Jews who fled the Holocaust fled certain death,' Magid wrote. 'I doubt whether there is a single boat person in that position.' SYDNEY - A controversial article on illegal boat people by the publisher of the Australia's main Jewish newspaper has ignited a storm of protest, with some critics savaging it for vilifying Muslims and promoting xenophobic, Islamophobic and heartless sentiments. Titled Curb your compassion, Robert Magid's article, published in last Friday¹s Sydney and Melbourne editions of the Australian Jewish News, argued that illegal boat people are queue jumpers who deprive sanctuary to legitimate refugees. The Jews who fled the Holocaust fled certain death, he wrote. I doubt whether there is a single boat person in that position. Some may have fled a war zone or limited economic opportunities while others are seeking an easy life. Magid, a multi-millionaire property developer who bought the newspaper in 2007, also accused illegal immigrants with destination shopping and suggested despite the collective memory of Jews' attempts to escape the Holocaust that Jews curb their compassion towards boat people. Full: http://tinyurl.com/97fjgng Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Doug Henwood tribute to Alexander Cockburn
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The audio interview linked to in this is great and the exuberance Henwood mentions certainly shines through, even if one doesn't know many of the US journalists Cockburn is marvelously bitchy about and even if he's unkind about the alleged tediousness of the International Socialist Review. Amongst other things Cockburn should be remembered as a pioneer eco-socialist. Personally reading Hecht and Cockburn's Fate of the Forests in 1988 was central to my developing from a vague teenage anarchism to environmentalism and Marxism. On 24/07/12 12:26 PM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://lbo-news.com/2012/07/23/alexander-cockburn/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/nick.fredman%40op tusnet.com.au Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Sam Farber and Cuba
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Mike G: The tendency is to blame every shortcoming of the Revolution on a blockade which has become largely ineffectual. In the case of the Internet, which you brought up, this is ignorant rubbish. Access was solely by satellite until the Venezuelan workers government laid a cable, operational since only last year http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/6009. A lot of the ignorant commentary about the Internet in Cuba, citing very low rates of availability in homes, ignores the substantial free access in educational institutions and IT clubs: http://www.zcommunications.org/cuba-computers-automation-and-the-internet-by-dana-lubow This is in common with ignorant commentary about income levels and so on, which ignores the very high social wage for a poor country. Perhaps Mike G as I suggested previously if you really have anything to say besides brief, repetitive, ignorant snipes you could back this up with some evidence, and even engage with the substantial research that contradicts your assertions that has been posted here. For example, neither in Farber's analyses nor anywhere else have I ever seen any evidence of any substantial privileges accruing to any bureaucratic layer. This is a real critical debate to be had about Cuba, and in Cuba, as Marce Cameron has been admirably tracking in http://www.cubasocialistrenewal.blogspot.com.au/, but black and white thinking and ignorance from those schooled in state capitalist of bureaucratic collectivist dogmas offer no help at all. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Cuba and AIDS
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == John Wesley said: In the early years of AIDS, persons with that condition were confined in such institutions. In the Sixties and Seventies, poliotical dissidents were generally sent to the UMAP forced labour units. MikeG. El pueblo armado jamas sera aplastado! * * * * Ken Hiebert replies: I cannot recall the source, but I have been told two things about AIDS in Cuba. One, that AIDS patients received the best treatment possible. Two, that Cuba was successful in halting an explosion of AIDS. Perhaps others will know more about this than I do. ken h There's a substantial outline of AIDS treatment in Cuba as part of a long article with numerous references by Rachel Evans, 'Rainbow Cuba', at http://links.org.au/node/2671. This article indicates for one thing that no-one was sent to the UMAP in the 70s as they were closed in 1968. Perhaps if comrade Wesley or KieG or whoever he is has something to say he can aspire to Slee and Evans' rigour rather than making occasional and repeated brief snipes about policies of over 40 years ago, from which time there's been massive changes. The section on AIDS treatment in Evans' article includes the following: Opponents of Cuba charged the revolution with violating human rights and individual freedom. In a November 1988 Los Angeles Times article, New York city health commissioner, Dr Stephen C. Joseph, lambasted the program, stating it can only be termed totalitarian. They test people involuntarily. They lock up people who test positive. They take away their employment. And they do so knowing that these people will be locked up for life. (Zonana, 1988, paragraph 18.) The 2005 UNAIDS executive director, Peter Piot, disagreed. He praised Cuba as, one of the first countries to take AIDS seriously as a problem and provide a comprehensive response combining both prevention and care (Krales, 2005, paragraph 5). Cuba enjoys status as a world leader in HIV-AIDS prevention because there has been no dramatic increase in HIV transmission since the first case was diagnosed in 1986 and the country's HIV infection rate #8722; 0.05 per cent #8722; is one of the lowest in the world and exceptional in a region with some of the highest infection rates in the world (Fawthrop, 2003, paragraph 3). By comparison, throughout the English-speaking Caribbean that borders Cuba, AIDS is the largest cause of death among men between the ages of 15 and 44 (Bauza and Collie, 2001, paragraph 6). As to critiques from the US, this is the country that allowed thousands to die and demonised its victims. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Prometheus: the Tea Party in Space
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 19/06/12 3:34 AM, Louis Proyect l...@panix.com wrote: Jeff's review didn't mention it but this is not the first time that Ridley Scott has put veiled Tea Party messages in a movie. NY Times May 13, 2010 Movie Review | 'Robin Hood' Rob the Rich? Give to the Poor? Oh, Puh-leeze! By A. O. SCOTT Compelled as I am to watch lots of kids' movies and TV I recently noticed that Disney's 1973 Robin Hood was also framed by anti-tax, rightist libertarianism. Luckily one can translate things for kids in the correct way (they're the evil bosses; they're the good socialists). More luckily Hollywood is a bit more pluralistic in kids' movies these days and it's pretty hard to read the Lorax for example as anything other than anti-capitalist. BTW there's a literal Tea Party in space movie out: a Finnish-Australian co-production that satirically argues that we need Sarah Palin in the White House to defend us from an invasion of Nazis from the moon http://www.ironsky.net/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Pilger's ultra-left economism on same sex marriage debated at Green Left
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Green Left yesterday posted an article by John Pilger, 'Bradley Manning, not gay marriage, is the issue', taking Obama's comments on same sex marriage, at http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/51053. It's also posted at the ABC's opinion site The Drum as well as at Pilger's site. The article makes some perfectly valid points about Obama's pro-war, pro-austerity, pro-austerity stances and hypocrisy about gay rights and the need to look to mass struggles such as in Greece rather than winning over elites to win gains for working people. But it contains a very, very wrong-headed approach to the same sex marriage campaign, even to gay rights generally, encapsulated in the passages: The truth is that what matters to those who aspire to control our lives is not skin pigment or gender, or whether or not we are gay, but the class we serve... On May 12, in Sydney, Australia, home of the Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras, a protest parade in support of gay marriage filled the city centre. The police looked on benignly. It was a showcase of liberalism It's true that individual capitalists, pro-capitalist politicians and even cops may be on average less homophobic, racist and sexist than those of past generations, due to a combination of mass struggles and changes to capitalism itself. But Pilger totally misses the points that, firstly capitalism as a system reproduces a range of oppressions and prejudices, which can get worse even after gains are made, and, secondly, that struggles for particular democratic rights can politicise people around other issues. The claim that only economic struggles are important is known as economism and it's a stance slammed by Lenin in What is To be Done, where he called for socialists to be tribunes of the people http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/iii.htm mobilising around all issues of oppression no matter what class or group is affected. The characterisation by Pilger of the same sex marriage campaign, which in Australia is largely lead by young members of Socialist Alternative and Socialist Alliance, as liberal, gives his screed an ultra-left character. I'm not sure it's a great thing that Green Left has promoted one of Pilger's less fine moments, but it's clearly for reasons of debate rather than of showing agreement, as GL has been a key supporter of the same sex marriage campaign, and there's a note at the end of the article indicating that responses will be published. There's already a few good responses in the comments section. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Victoria TAFE fights for survival
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Jamie Dougney, socialist economist, former Victorian president of the NTEU and Socialist Alliance member, wanted to comment by email for this article (http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/50915), but I neglected to tell him the deadline. Here's his response to the questions I put to him: Youve written about how the demand drive model of higher education is putting the squeeze on TAFE provision in dual sector universities. How will the new TAFE cuts further affect these institutions? Except for those areas spared, the cuts actually mean that vocational education provision by dual-sector universities is uneconomic. The dual-sectors offer services to students and staff that the backyard private operators do not. The new rates do not cover these overheads. In fact the cuts in some areas are so severe that front-line teaching is unaffordable, unless the cost shifts dramatically to students in an almost full-fee-paying way. Earlier I said that TAFE (including the dual-sector vocational education divisions) was buggered because of the coincidence of contestability or full marketisation in Victoria in both vocational and higher education. Now I think it is completely (you can insert a word of your choice that is worse than buggered). What should education unions and supporters of quality public education be calling on the dual sector universities to do? First up we must be totally frank. These cuts threaten TAFE institutes and all but destroy the traditional dual-sector model. The dual sector universities have to consider calling the Government on its actions. That is, they have to be prepared to say that the dual-sector model is dead, at least as we knew it, and be prepared to act accordingly. On the Governments head be it. Now that also means looking after those students who lose out dramatically, working out new ways to save them from the tender mercies of the backyard private operators. You know, when you use the word operator, you usually mean dodgy. Thats the case here, too. The same goes for the TAFE staff whose jobs and working conditions will be slaughtered by privatization. Now, let me say clearly that this is not just a Victorian or vocational education problem. Higher education marketisation (contestability) nationally was preceded in Victoria by TAFE contestability, both by Labor Governments. The Coalition! in Victoria is completing the process here, in their usual brutal fashion. What Labor has done nationally is to prepare the ground for a future Abbott-led Coalition to slash into higher education in similar fashion to their state colleagues. For unions, universities and university groups this is a massive wake-up call. Now is the time to unite and, dare I say it, fight. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Victoria TAFE fights for survival
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/50915 Victoria TAFE fights for survival Saturday, May 5, 2012 By Nick Fredman, Melbourne As part of savage budget cuts, the Victorian Coalition government has slashed $300 million over four years of funding for the provider of public technical and further education, the state¹s 18 TAFE institutes that teach about 400,000 students a year. Funding per student in 80% of courses has been cut from about $8 per training hour to as low as $1.50 - to a range meant to reflect labour market priorities. Trades apprenticeships, aged care and child care received some small increases. But the government cut the extra funding TAFEs received compared with private providers. This funding previously recognised their community role and obligation to provide non-profitable courses. Student fees have also risen for all courses. If students who already have a degree or diploma undertake further study at an equal or lower level, they must now pay full fees. Multiple qualifications at all levels is an increasing need as bosses demand that all the skills development they profit from is paid for by the public or by workers. Education unions have warned of the loss of thousands of jobs and the danger of imminent collapse of some providers, such as the highly regarded William Angliss Institute, a unique public specialty provider of training in hospitality, one of the hardest hit areas. ³These cuts are a mark of this government¹s attacks on the vulnerable in society,² Mary Bluett, Victorian president of the Australian Education Union (AEU), which represents TAFE teachers, told Green Left Weekly. ³We¹re receiving increasing support from other unions, from Trades Hall and community organisations for the campaign we¹ve launched. The first step is a rally next Thursday, May 10, at Treasury Gardens.² The National Tertiary Education Union (NTEU) is also involved, representing non-teaching staff at TAFEs as well as all staff in higher education, including the higher education divisions of Victoria¹s five dual sector universities. These universities have played an important role in raising access to all levels of tertiary education through pathway programs. Jeremy Smith, NTEU branch president at Ballarat University and Socialist Alliance member, told GLW the hits to the TAFE divisions of these universities will undermine this role. ³This budget sends the worst messages about the kind of society the Liberals envisage: $1 billion extra for prisons and devastating cuts to public vocational education.² ³The loss of these precious community institutions would be terrible for regional communities.² Regional funding has also been slashed from 22% to 5% loading. Bluett said the AEU will organise a tour to build support for the anti-cuts campaign. Smith also noted that the latest cuts were a direct continuation of the former Brumby Labor government¹s TAFE marketisation policies. Public funding was made available to private providers from 2005, leading to an explosion of often dubious quality providers, the diversion of more public funds to the private sector and pressures on TAFEs to compete with providers with poorly paid staff and none of the community obligations of TAFE. The Labor government also introduced fees for TAFE in 2009. Margarita Windisch, AEU activist at the TAFE division of Victoria University and Socialist Alliance member, told GLW: ³The rally on May 10 is a good start and a big turn out will show that the community is outraged.² However, she said education unions should recognise that ³one rally is not enough. This protest needs to be followed up with strikes, pickets, petitions, public meetings essentially a mass campaign that involves students, staff and the broader community. ³Now more than ever is the time to show leadership and courage.² [For more information visit the website http://www.tafe4all.org.au/. A ³Fight the TAFE cuts² rally will take place on May 10 at 12.30pm at the Premier's office, 1 Treasury Place, Melbourne.] Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Samuel Bowles on his firing from Harvard
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Patrick Bond pb...@mail.ngo.za wrote: But the other old question is what happens to that kind of radical spirit over the years - now nearly three decades later, did Bowles have revolutionary visions beaten out of him? What I've seen of his work, including here in SA, hasn't had that kind of sting. I don't know, but Bowles and Gintis have recently re-released the classic Schooling in Capitalist America. That's available through Haymarket http://www.haymarketbooks.org/pb/Schooling-in-Capitalist-America along with the mentioned Education and Capitalism http://www.haymarketbooks.org/pb/Education-and-Capitalism. As I've accidentally ended up in the education studies corner of academia and am still getting my head around Marxist approaches the other day I was about to order both before I saw the hefty shipping price to Australia (this anyway is for possible future reference because in a reflection of Bowles' points as a grant funded researcher I have to follow the line rather than write what I actually think). I might have to lobby Resistance Books here to distribute. By the way great to see Haymarket has a substantial kids and parents section http://www.haymarketbooks.org/category/kids-parents Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Wither the Greens? and Broad Marxism Conference
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 16/04/12 8:12 AM, Alan Bradley alanb1...@yahoo.com wrote: I just wrote the following on Greenleft_discussion: SAlt are entitled to organise whatever they want on whatever basis they want. It's not useful to complain that it's not how we (for whatever value of we) would have done things. A jointly organised open conference would be a good idea. Why not propose one? And I just replied thusly on Greenleft_discussion: The article this thread started with http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/50677 implicitly makes this suggestion within a positive appreciation of the conference, rather than whingeing about anything. Anyone who knows the article's author, Sue Bolton, would know that she works closely and patiently with SAlt members and everyone else in the refugee rights movement and other arenas, and is generally about the least complaining person one could imagine. She also points out concretely a rather big gap in the Marxism conferences: the environment. One could go further and suggest the IS tradition has totally abstained from environmental campaigning in Australia (at least in my experience and observation of the last 20 years). If SAlt are interested in building a mass socialist party rather than merely Brand SAlt it's something they'll need to address, including talking to people with runs on the board in the area. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Victorian government attempts to censor nurses' union Facebook page
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == My partner, a midwife at a Melbourne hospital, is a member of the union waging the most important industrial struggle in Australia at present. Nurses and midwives here are the worst paid in Australia, partly because they've traded off wage increases for maintaining safe patient/nurse ratios. The conservative state government is demanding these be scrapped and many nurses replaced with lesser-qualified assistants. While the union has a misplaced faith in conciliation getting them a better deal they've also repeatedly defied the threat of large fines under federal Labor's industrial laws and continued industrial action. Stoppages were however called off on Monday after more direct threats of fines, although rallies and other campaigning continues. The latest government bullying was a demand today to censor the campaign Facebook page. http://www.anfvic.asn.au/campaigns/news/42058.html 1 March 2012, 4:08pm Victorian nurses dislike Baillieu Government facebook gag Private conciliation resolved disputes in 1997, 2001, 2004 and 2007 and can resolve 2012 The Baillieu Government has spent more taxpayer money on lawyers - this time to prevent nurses and midwives from freely using social media to discuss the dispute. Baillieu Government-paid lawyers wrote to ANF solicitors last night demanding ANF delete nurses' and midwives' posts from the Facebook campaign page at www.facebook.com/respectourwork The letter seeks that ANF immediately delete from the Facebook site any and all comments which organise, advise or assist the taking of industrial action by ANF members or which aid, threaten or propose to engage in such conduct. The letter says: We also require that you confirm in writing that, once deletions have been effected, the ANF continue to maintain its social media websites to ensure that comments of a similar nature are immediately deleted. Australian Nursing Federation (Victorian Branch) Secretary Lisa Fitzpatrick said: It's outrageous that Minister Davis can take advantage of his position and use the mainstream media to misrepresent nurses and midwives, but wants to stop Victorian nurses and midwives and the community talking about nursing issues on their own Facebook site. Why are Mr Baillieu and Minister Davis prepared to waste more taxpayer money on lawyers to censor the internet and control and punish nurses and midwives when they should be working on finding a solution to end this dispute and get improvements happening in our hospitals? she said. The Baillieu Government already tightly censors Victorians' freedom of expression by blocking voters and deleting their comments from its own Facebook pages. Nurses and midwives have also been blocked from liking' Premier Baillieu's and Minister Davis' and other Liberal politicians' facebook pages which means nurses and midwives can't leave comments. Now the Baillieu Government wants nurses and midwives blocked from commenting on their own Facebook page, Ms Fitzpatrick said. Nurses have long been suspicious that the Baillieu Government actually employs people whose only job is to sit in front of a computer and delete critical comments on government social media sites, she said. Gagging nurses and midwives will not resolve this dispute, she said. I again call on Mr Baillieu to be the man he was in Opposition four years ago when he called on the previous premier to stop being confrontational and take the conciliation path to resolve this dispute, she said. Twitter @ANFvicbranch Facebook.com/respectourwork ANF (Vic Branch) is Victoria's peak nursing industrial and professional body representing more than 63,000 members Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Don't moan, organise
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Ed seems to think this article in regard to what it says about the far left is an example of serious discussion rather than attacking people. But serious discussion means engaging with what people actually say and do rather than presenting caricature and distortion. This piece is dishonest and/or ignorant on at least two counts. Firstly Ed asserts that there’s a “chorus” of far left voices unanimous with the views of John Passant on this issue, without supplying an example besides John Passant. The Green Left article by socialist priest Karl Hand http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/49591 is in regard to the ALP quite different. The point about a conscience vote being undemocratic is made with Penny Wong’s words, for one thing. I'm sure from past experience they'd be a range of other views and ways these are presented among the far left. For example Solidarity and the CPA can be too soft on the ALP, in my opinion. Ed seems to think far leftists should take his arrogant sneering in good humour but any political criticism of the ALP will send Labor Party members screaming from any campaign. Secondly, the lecture by Ed to the far left about the need to organise around this issue is quite unnecessary. Far left activists, principally Socialist Alternative and Socialist Alliance members, have not moaned, but have played a central role in organsing and indeed initiating the whole campaign. Some perhaps even more so than Ed. The need for a united front with a range of forces including ALP members has also been pretty clear without Ed's help. As a small example the last rally I had a role in in my previous locale of Lismore, in November 2009, was mainly organised by a young Socialist Alliance member, and included as speakers the Labor Party mayor and local union organisers. The former expressed her embarrassment at belonging to the party that had on that weekend resolved to defend the marriage act. Maybe the comrade mayor as I used to call her is feeling a bit better after this weekend but I doubt she's uncritical. I don't think such speakers have been exceptional in the campaign nationally. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Video of nurses and midwives Respect Our Work rally, Melbourne
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Ed Lewis' contribution to the fight in the Victorian public sector: Potemkin Village these days is just a roadhouse on the way to La La Land. Weirdest thing. We were watching Dora the Explorer the other day, and Ed was on it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvcJqcUlYTo Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Video of nurses and midwives Respect Our Work rally, Melbourne
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This video has been included in the latest GL article on the issue at http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/49593, which includes the somewhat less upbeat news that the union leadership has from yesterday acceded to the federal government union policing body's bans on industrial action before an acceptable outcome has been reached, contrary to the vote at the last mass meeting. They are it should be said facing very large fines, and have called another mass meeting for this Wednesday. Socialist Alliance is circulating a petition calling on the Victorian union movement to call a statewide day of action against the state government's range of attacks on public sector workers, which can be downloaded from http://socialist- alliance.wikispaces.com/file/view/VicPublicSectorPetition.pdf/278878872/VicPublicSectorPetition.pdf On Fri Nov 25 21:56 , Nick Fredman nick.fred...@iinet.net.au sent: http://socialistalliancemelbourne.blogspot.com/2011/11/anf-respect-our-work-rally-november-24.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Video of nurses and midwives Respect Our Work rally, Melbourne
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://socialistalliancemelbourne.blogspot.com/2011/11/anf-respect-our-work-rally-november-24.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Victorian nurses and midwives defy bans on industrial action
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == A mass meeting yesterday affirmed a very important challenge to Labor's WorkChoices Lite laws and a very important struggle to save a public health system in crisis. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-22/nurses-suffer-legal-setback-over-industrial-action/3686402 Background http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/49499 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Obama visit to Australia is about guns, money and racism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Ed Lewis: Thanks to Peter Boyle for explaining that Obama's visit was about militarism and imperialism, as I wouldn't have known that otherwise, and to Nick for his rational supplementary explanation of Peter's important piece of analysis. Ed perhaps you should drop the lead-plated sarcasm and accept the fact that although media associated with Green Left and Socialist Alliance do not appear to met the needs of Ed Lewis, as well as Ed Lewis there are other people. In the last 12 years or so I've taught or interacted with a few thousand mainly young people in higher education. Mainly in a small and under-funded regional university, where students are on the whole somewhat better educated and informed than their peers outside higher education, but are also less well-off and elitist than at the sandstone where I now work. Let me tell you there's a considerable need, and appreciation for, some basic education about the world and some basic socialism and Marxism among this lot, and among lots of other people. Whether this need and appreciation suits the needs and views of Ed Lewis is in fact a minor consideration if not completely irrelevant, believe it or not Ed. And to imply as you do regularly that basic propaganda is all Green Left, Socialist Alliance and Links and associated individuals publish is an absurdity disproved by a cursory glance. Ed I appreciate and that some of your interventions are aimed at serious information-sharing and discussion. But to be very frank your regular efforts over a number of years to represent Green Left as utterly irrelevant are quite pathetic and do nothing but poison discussion. You are welcome to your opinion that the commercial media, the state-run media and individual blogs can encapsulate all the information and discussion the left needs, but arguments to buttress your claims that the only people disagreeing with you are a tiny band of sectarians, based on everyone says so, are utterly juvenile. The fact that one piece you posted from Chris White's blog, Humphrey MacQueen's speech at http://chriswhiteonline.org/2011/11/on-obama presumably as a valuable contribution to information and discussion, is probably going to be read by many more people at http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/49490 pretty much in itself demolishes your argument. That is all. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Obama visit to Australia is about guns, money and racism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Ed Lewis: Thanks to Peter Boyle for the Stuff Just About Everyone Already Knows. I'm curious Ed. How is it that you Know So Much About What Nearly Everyone Knows? Have you undertaken a series of surveys of samples representative of Nearly Everyone, covering Everything Ed Lewis Keeps Claiming to Know About What Nearly Everyone Knows? I'm somewhat concerned that otherwise you're projecting Your Own Prejudices onto Nearly Everyone. I'm curious why you think your own Boiler Plate Statement posted here was any Superior In These Regards. Actually I Don't Give a Poo. But thanks for the Madam Miaow link. I already saw Humphrey MacQueen's talk on the Green Left site, but thanks anyway for trying with this too. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Qantas and left media (was Re: Occupy Brisbane)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Rose: describe internal and external critics of their political strategy or tacticsas mentally ill. Calm down Rose, bitterness isn't a mental illness. I'm bitter about Fox axing both Firefly and The Dollhouse, albeit in this case with actual justification. Also maybe you should learn how search engines actually work before pontificating about the Net, e.g. how sites previously visited by a user rank more highly in her or his searches. But feel free to ignore the facts if it makes you feel better. Whatever. My actual view of the Greens, in response to some actual sectarianism towards and lack of awareness of the Greens' significance by Ben Hillier of Socialist Alternative, are at http://links.org.au/node/1938 (unfortunately I never had time to further respond to Ben Hillier's unconvincing answer to this piece however - one of the many extended debates by the way hosted by us in Links and/or GLW that Rose doesn't know or care about). An academic journal article I've written which expands on the themes are data presented there will be appearing in the coming months if I respond adequately to referees' points. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Electric cars (was re: Socialist Party of Ontario)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Rod Holt: The bottom line is that until the whole electrical generating system is radically changed, electric cars will consume twice the fossil fuel, produce twice the amount of CO2, and, still, to control pollution and particulates, gigantic catalytic converters and particulate traps will have to be added to existing and future power plants. I'm not an engineer but I imagine this comparison could be disputed on a number of grounds, even without a radical switch to renewables, such as as the Socialist Party comrade points out, leaving out the cost in energy in the treatment of large scale cancers, respiratory illness etc caused by mass combustion engines (fossil fuel electrical generation being away from population centres or at least more easily so than millions of personal cars). As is pointed out in regard to energy use by the car designed by Swinburne University and the CERES environment centre near my place in north Melbourne: No need for a complex engine with large numbers of moving parts. An electric motor is extremely simple No requirement for oil changes and filters, fuel tanks, fuel injectors, carburettors, or an exhaust system. There is no requirement for servicing and replacement of spark plugs, engine oil, oil filters, air filters, and timing belts. No need for emissions tests. Maintenance is easy. In a practical sense, the only work required on the car is electrical system checks and tyre rotation. Here it's also claimed: Electric motors are probably the most efficient systems for propelling cars. They are between 85% and 95% efficient at using energy, whereas ordinary car engines are only 15 - 25% efficient at converting fuel energy to motion. Cars can be ‘recharged’ during the braking process. And, they consume no energy when the car is stationary, the motor does not run at all. Also if recharging were mainly done at home numerous side trips to petrol stations would be eliminated. http://www.ceres.org.au/node/7 I'd add that demands to speed up electric car development and production can very logically be combined with demands to increase electric public transport and local car sharing schemes for much cleaner cities, in terms of achieving this while reducing rather than increasing energy use, again even without the massive shift to renewables which is of course needed. Being down on electric cars seems almost as bizarre as being keen on nuclear energy. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Audio of interview with Alex Mitchell
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Alex Mitchell's long career in mainstream journalism in Australia and the UK was punctuated by 14 years editing the Workers Press, newspaper of Gerry Healy's Workers Revolutionary Party. He seems to uphold his revolutionary socialist views in a new memoir, http://cometherevolutionbook.squarespace.com and he talks at length on his life and times at http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2011/3349536.htm Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Did Quackery Finish Off Steve Jobs?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Paul Flewers: To describe the sorts of things to which Jobs was resorting for his cancer as quackery -- that is, something that has no positive effect upon his condition as it cannot by its very nature have any positive effect -- is not to endorse the various tricks that the medical business uses to get its products into hospitals and surgeries, nor is it to give an unqualified endorsement to contemporary medical science. Paul I didn't mean to suggest you were an uncritical mouthpiece for anything, but on the other hand you don't actually know that the sorts of things Jobs did (quite vaguely defined in the article you cited by his biographer who I assume also isn't a clinician of any type) cannot by [their] very nature have any positive effect. The quackery involved was the apparent delay to seek conventional treatment for an acute life-threatening illness: it's not quackery to look into what are generally seen as unconventional modes of healthcare or the promotion of well-being, as *complements* to the conventional treatment. The mysticists mentioned might have been harmful fruit loops or they may simply have suggested yoga or meditation, which could be very helpful in promoting the positive attitude that is said, quite conventionally, to be helpful. Macrobiotic and vegan diets were mentioned, which for anyone who has ever tried hospital food are probably not things to immediately discount for the promotion of overall health and better immune response. I've seen reference to the efficacy of Chinese and Western herbal medicine in helping ameliorate the side-effects of conventional treatments such as nausea, and so on. I'm not stating any of these things are necessarily the case, and I'm not a health clinician or researcher (though having a science degree and post-grad level stats as well as a social science PhD I believe I can comprehend health research papers). Rather I'm saying some of these things are worth seriously investigating. I'm suggesting that among the problems of advanced capitalist health systems is not just the pushing of poorly tested or unnecessary products with serious side effects but always an overall resistance to a holistic view of health and well-being, which is related to both marketised medicine but always the steeply hierarchal sociology of health systems (i.e. doctors are often fighting for both their petty bourgeois class and occupational status interests). The steep rise in rates of diabetes and perhaps asthma recently speak to the failures of conventional healthcare in regard to prevention and life style. Quackery in the sense Paul means is I think in part a distorted and sometimes unfortunate response to real problems in healthcare. There seem to have been improvements in these regards, at least partly due to pushing from outside conventional channels of change (e.g. pushing by nurses and midwives). As I've mentioned here before I think it's relevant that the health systems in Cuba and Vietnam are more open to integrating traditional knowledges than capitalist systems (and one thing to keep in mind is that's there's often a big difference between traditional practices with some empirical backing and often warrant more systematic study and New Age practices which generally are a crock). Perhaps market reforms will undermine this. One of the many unfortunate results of the increasing marketisation of post-school education in Australia (my day-job field of research) is that the couple of attempts at public university programs in complementary medicine have folded, unable to compete with increasingly publicly-subsidised private colleges. The university courses were more rigorous and much more interested in promoting research, and their failure was a set-back for the development of a more holistic health-care system here. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Is the drum circle about to destroy OWS?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I had a friend who was a pretty good rock drummer and percussionist and who I used to often attend musical and political events with. He had an unkind and possibly offensive term for the less rhythmic members of drum circles: bongoloids. There's probably a good case for the democratic regulation of such things at movement events. When it's done well and at appropriate times some beats are really effective. Many progressive marches in northern NSW where I used to live were given extra omph by a large red-clad percussion group with the marvellous name The Sambablistas. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Successful coal seam gas campus divestment campaign
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This report on what sounds like an excellent campaign is at http://www.campusreview.com.au/pages/section/article.php? s=NewsidArticle=22456 but this is subscriber only. Students force ANU share sale University sells shares in coal seam gas company after student campaign. A student campaign has led to the Australian National University deciding to sell its shares in Metgasco, a company involved in coal seam gas extraction in northern NSW. The university has held about 1 per cent of shares in Metgasco since 2001 but has now decided to sell after concerns were raised by students and others, a university spokeswoman told Campus Review. Those concerns were mainly from students, she said. The shares worth about $1million would be sold soon. She said vice-chancellor Ian Young was aware of the controversy over Metgasco but had not formed a strong view on whether the shareholding was problematic of not. “It just seemed prudent to dispose of the issue and invest in something else.” The university has an investment advisory committee which buys and sells shares on its behalf and it operates under guidelines set by the economic committee of the university council. Finance reports show that Metgasco came up on the ASX radar just last week after the company’s shares spiked 57 per cent higher on one day to $0.525 from $0.335 the previous week. The ANU Environment Collective who ran the campus campaign to get the university to drop its interest in Metgasco is hailing the VC’s decision as a hard-won victory. Woroni, the ANU student newspaper quoted a spokesman for the collective, Tom Stayner: “He took some convincing, but the vice-chancellor is showing leadership on this urgent issue”. Students from the collective discovered the investment in Metgasco’s annual report and they launched their campaign by installing a “gas rig” made out of milk crates in Union Court on campus and starting a petition. Woroni reported that at a recent student forum, Young said that Australian Ethical Investments gave “the tick” to coal seam gas companies that don’t use the controversial “fracking” and Metgasco did not. Fracking, or hydraulic fracturing to release the gas, can cause major problems for water systems. In a letter to the vice-chancellor, the students cited Metgasco reports showing that fracking occurred at its Kingfisher natural gas operation and suggesting plans to use the technique elsewhere. Woroni reported that students have urged the ANU to focus more of its investments on renewables. Metgasco was unavailable for comment at the time of going to press. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] [GreenLeft_discussion] Occupy Melbourne commences
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Several 1000s of people here at least, especially since the boycott Israel march joined up. Someone brought a PA as The Herd's Burn Down the Parliament is pumping. Sent from my iPhone On 15/10/2011, at 2:14 PM, Stuart Munckton stuartmunck...@gmail.com wrote: http://occupymelbourne.org/2011/10/15/occupy-melbourne-commences/ -- “Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is humanity’s original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.” — Oscar Wilde, Soul of Man Under Socialism “The free market is perfectly natural... do you think I am some kind of dummy?” — Jarvis Cocker [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Green Left Weekly depends on your support! Subscribe to Green Left Weekly! http://www.greenleft.org.au/subscribe.htm Make a donation to help Green Left Weekly continue! http://www.greenleft.org.au/fogl.htm Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GreenLeft_discussion/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GreenLeft_discussion/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: greenleft_discussion-dig...@yahoogroups.com greenleft_discussion-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: greenleft_discussion-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Australian: OWS spreads to Australia
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Stuart: The organised far left has to understand this dynamic -- the far left cannot just go in to this and hammer a line at people. This is not about winning a vote, but creating spaces for people to discuss through the issues and collectively begin to formulate a response. This is very important. I’m planning on taking my two young boys to Melbourne City Square tomorrow morning while my partner works but the possibility of a self-declared Red Bloc of Socialist Alternative members running around with far more megaphones than are really necessary is not very appealing. We should be open and patient when new people move into action, but I do hope there’s some structure to the event or us three and I suspect others even without easily bored children might soon wander down the road to the Australian Centre for the Moving Image to play vintage video games. This movement is surprising, could be quite important and seems to some extent genuinely new. But despite the involvement of union activists in Melbourne, as Stuart reports, organizationally some of the sillier autonomous-type ideas of the recent past seem to be prevalent: an idea of “openness” that consists of convoluted and not very useful forms being insisted on from the start. E.g. A majority vote will win, however it is also possible to Block (veto) the proposal in which case the assembly will move to modify the consensus and seek 90% consensus to pass the proposal. Hand signals are used to indicate level of support and to communicate with the facilitators. http://occupymelbourne.org/general-assemblies/ Apart from this not making sense, why can’t the people there decide on something else, like a traditional majority vote? Basic forms of democratic discussion were worked out about 2500 years ago in city-states in India and Greece, and we really don’t have to anguish about new forms, when we should be focused on a movement’s content. The speaker’s forum will not be amplified, a “people’s microphone” can be used if the crowd size is too big for everybody to hear the speaker. The use of a megaphone may be considered if the audience still has trouble hearing, however the people’s microphone should be the default method of amplification. http://occupymelbourne.org/speakers-forum/ Why not have a PA so we can frigging well hear clearly, FFS? This all reminds me of my partner’s frustrations for part of the organizing of the national student women’s conference in 2004, when some influenced by autonomous ideas insisted for weeks on end that an open, fluid structure, decided upon each day, was inherently more democratic than a boring old agenda. There was a lot of patient but firm arguments that people travelling thousands of kilometers might well want to know what was on when and of course a set agenda can have some space for late addition and amendment. Luckily this won out and a boring old agenda framed an excellent conference. I don’t think the autonomists had at that point come up with the idea that electrical amplification was totalitarian, luckily for my partner’s sanity. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Australian: OWS spreads to Australia
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Gary: Having said that despite my hearing problems I would not make a big fuss about this. The repeating the speeches shortens them and that is generally a good thing. Well I'm not going to jump up and down and denounce anyone but in the absence of cop restrictions on free speech I would think an open mic, a two minute speaking limit and a nice clean PA would make a lot more sense. Around 1990-91 I lived and studied and did a campus radio show with a guy who paid his way through uni with work at a big sound hire place. His staff discounts and freely-given expertise were a great help to many a fund-raiser and rally, and I used to enjoy helping him out. The skilled sound engineer has an important and honourable role in the movement. And Monty Python pointed out a potential major problem with the eschewal of amplification http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=-xLUEMj6cwA Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Reality check (Re: WA Socialist Alliance leaders continue to target dissident member)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Shane Hopkinson: My point Graham as you are well aware is that the SA/DSP expelled a third of its members - including those who founded the organisation - because of differences over their assessment of the usefulness of the Alliance… my hunch is that the porn issue is] just the stalking horse to get rid of you because of some other percieved political difference. Shane, Graham can't be aware of something that isn't true. As you should be aware, if you have any actual genuine interest in the matter, about 18% of the membership of the DSP were expelled from the DSP in 2008 due to their *behaviour*, which was charged to be disloyal, organising separately to not just discuss things but to organize activity counter to that decided upon, etc. Whether their behaviour warranted the drastic action of expulsion might or might not be the case, but that was the reason, not their opinions. They had been voicing these opinions at many forums for 3 years prior to their expulsion. To my fairly reliable knowledge, no-one was expelled from the DSP between 1983 and 2008, and no-one was ever expelled for their opinions. Perhaps it’s ironic that the DSP split led to the consolidation of the Socialist Alliance as an activist socialist organization with a looser idea of discipline and a broader program than the DSP. Despite the grim warnings of liquidationism by those departing, SA, is able to campaign around the country, maintain a weekly paper which is by far the best read left website and serves for the mainstream media as a metonym for the radical left, attract young people, organize Marxist education, get 500-odd people to a Climate Change Social Change conference, etc. A number of useful things which the Greens, for example, can’t or won’t do. SA is of course far from what’s needed but there’s indications of interesting further developments in which SA can play a useful role such as a United Left group in Adelaide and a broad left electoral effort in Wollongong. SA also has had internal debates on substantial matters such as the approach to NATO intervention, with no problem when these are made public, and no anguished splitting. I suspect that whatever problems anyone has with Graham Milner, about which I don't know anything, have more to do with his behaviour than his opinions about porn or any other matter. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Prove anti-semitism and the hot chocs are on me
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Eli Stephens: Of course the Israeli state and its politicians and defenders in the West do so every day, by refusing to use the term Israeli state at all, but instead insist that it is the Jewish state, thereby identifying Judaism and Jews everywhere with the reprehensible actions of that state. Well kinda sorta. Mike Karadjis has just made a similar point on the Green Left list, noting this was a particular irony. There was in fact a more direct irony in the 2007 issue of the Australia/Israel Review that I quoted a reasonable definition of anti-semitism in relation to Israel from: in the same issue of that organ, there was a typically stupid and offensive attack on the left, including Green Left by name, as being anti-semitic, on grounds having nothing at all to do with ascribing bad things to essential Jewishness. I had input into a response from Green Left which is at http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/37598 However, I'd amend what Eli and Mike said a bit (maybe a bit pedantically): Israeli, in its majority, its ruling class, its political and military elite, *is* a Jewish state, by force. The implicit anti-semitism of the Zionists is that they often ascribe the nature of Israel to Jewish values, which they think is a good thing, even though it encourages anti-semitic thinking by linking in the minds of some the atrocious policies of the Israeli state to these alleged Jewish values. There is of course no such thing as Jewish values, as opposed to colonial-settler values (and as opposed to Jewish culture, which is about form rather than content). So Eli and Mike win a non-Max Brenner hot chocolate. The best hot chocolate in Melbourne if not the universe is by the way available at Coco Loco in High Street Northcote, the planet’s first certified organic fair trade chocolat bar, including a number of alcoholic varieties. Run as it happens by an Arab Egyptian. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Prove anti-semitism and the hot chocs are on me
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == List members may be interested in some comments I've made on the Green Left site in response to the article http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/48834, which quoted extensively from Greens NSW upper house member John Kaye's strong defense of the BDS campaign (which other Greens have denounced): Very good points by John Kaye. In regard to what really is anti-semitism: In May 2007 the Australia/Israel Review, a strongly Zionist organ, published an interview with Israeli academic Dina Porat in which she argued, I think quite correctly, that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic when it attributes Jewish qualities to Israeli military and political behaviour. Unfortunately Zionists too often fling about accusations of anti-semitism on a far wider and completely undeserved basis. In any case I'll make an offer to the perhaps getting-rather-desperate Zionists who are jumping up and down about anti-semitism and even more ludicrously Nazism in relation to the BDS campaign: show me a single example of actual anti-semitism, that is negative references to any essential Jewish nature of the policies of the Israeli state, or any use whatsoever of derogatory stereotypes of Jews, by BDS organisers and I'll happily stand you a choccy treat of choice at Max Brenner Melbourne Central. I'm pretty confident of maintaining my boycott. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ex-RSP members: Let's unite behind Green Left Weekly
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == It's been brought to my attention that there was an error an the URL I posted previously. It should be http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/48776 There's some interesting discussion here, relevant to perennial Marxmail favourites of socialist organisation and publication type today. The GL comments facility is generally becoming a useful forum for discussion, including by those, as under this piece, who deny it's a forum of discussion. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Die Linke has the Sexiest Member of Parliament
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This Bundestag thing is very silly and sexist, but I think the following manages to subvert the idea of a sexiest contest in a way that is both genuinely funny and serves a progressive purpose. At the least this stay at home dad from the northern Melbourne suburb of Reservoir must have one of the best named blogs in the world. http://www.reservoirdad.com/mentally-sexy-2010/what-is-mentally-sexy Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] EI: Jello Biafra bucks international BDS call, will play show in Tel Aviv
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I'm genuinely curious: is anyone surprised? Well disappointed surely when any avowed radical leftist can't understand elementary solidarity with the oppressed. I can't really say surprised as I've never followed his politics enough. I was too young when the DKs were around but like everyone I knew had their records later in the 80s, and particularly liked the blistering mini-LPs Biafra put out with DOA and the boys from Ministry, the latter under the name of Lard, around 1990. Is there any particular reason not to be surprised? Anarcho-liberals are always confused? He's expressed some more relevant and specific confusion or stupidities? At least he's not as bad as John Lyndon. Public Image Limited were one of my first musical loves and my first real gig at 15 in 1984, and from there I got into some punk and various revivals and offshoots. I remember being disappointed when Lyndon publicly sneered at the pro-Aparthaid boycott song, Ain't Gonna Play Sun City, in 1986, but not surprised, as even as I liked the music it was clear to me that he was a wanker. A wanker last heard of publicly celebrating the recent royal wedding. Oh and the best punk-ska song is course Ska Sucks by those nice Canadian boys Propaghandi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F03gEzdLa2gfeature=related Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Rose: GLW and equivalent socialist news sources in Australia simply have little to contribute to the education or enlightenment of many engaged leftists and thus remain largely unread and uninfluential after decades of opportunity to become sources of information, ideas and arguments about stuff that people don't already know. Is this based on anything other than your own impressions, or maybe prejudices? In terms of readership, several thousand people still read it on paper each week, and GLW has appeared regularly in the top 10 of the politics and culture category of the Hitwise web rankings of Australian sites a few times, and has topped it. In terms of mainstream recognition as the left publication, I just checked the Factiva database, and the string green left weekly appears 398 times in Australian news items collated there since 1993. A further 637 items contain the term green left, which of course could refer to a number of things, but glancing at the first summary page of hits many of these also refer to GLW (e.g. a 1998 letter to The Australian from the the then federal minister of communications: AFTER reading 'PM turns back to our future' (9/12/97) on the Federal Government's industry statement, I seriously wondered whether the sub-editors had mistakenly replaced a Green Left editorial for the real thing.) The term world socialist website (or web site) appears 43 times. More anecdotally, when I taught at a regional university, students would often cite GLW, and the library was happy to take a sub. Not to mention the feedback one gets from thousands of people after staffing stalls for 20 years. WSWS has some OK analyses but you have to wonder how good a contribution a publication makes when the associated political project is barking mad. It's design is probably better then GLW's, if a little too slick and corporate looking for my taste, but GLW is doing a lot better in incorporating multimedia. Good luck to Louis' idea of a broad socialist news site, but while a good and useful left publication doesn't necessarily need an organisation, it does sort of beg the question of one. GLW's online profile, for one, is I'm pretty sure due to its physical activist/street presence. Even just for this reason, I'm not for junking a print version, but rather see a gradual wind down as the better option, and would see even for some years hence the usefulness of printing a weekly broadsheet with say a major article or too and highlights of what's online, to hand out at stalls and events and so on. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Manuel: 'hubris we tend to see even on this list (WSWS has some ok analysis... cries for the need of a publication that can draw a much wider readership and writership' I don't think my lack of enthusiasm for the WSWS is hubris. If it wasn't clear I simply meant that whatever good writing is there it's matched by a number of other socialist sites, and I'm not sure why some see the WSWS as particularly brilliant (I'm all for professional-grade design, writing and editing though, and if the post-Healyites have acquired these skills in disproportionate measure through whatever means and despite bat-shit craziness, and maybe I can't separate the online crisp sentences and erudite film reviews from glazed eyed and foam-specked people I've seen in live action, sure, emulate their good socialist journalism). I agree with your broader point, *but* I'd add that the history of left publishing seems to show a tension between broadness and commitment. While a broad radical left publication like the old US Guardian and Tariq Al's efforts in the last 60s and early 70s can flourish in a period of upturn, they seem difficult to sustain otherwise. Green Left, for its part, was set up as a non-party paper in 1991, with non-members on staff and many non-member contributors, supporters and distributors. That was difficult to maintain at the initial level, but the form and the intention is still there, and the reality too to some extent with a broader range of contributors and reprints than many if not most socialist publications. I should have noted before that this broadness is part of GLW's readership and influence - even if Rose and some others on the far left sourly deny the existence of this readership and influence - as well as activist commitment . Many people, not just hardened Bolsheviks or those with experience of such, *expect* a paper to have a line in every article though. Recently GL printed/posted an opinion supporting intervention in Libya, and one comment was along the lines of how dare GL support the blood-soaked imperialists, etc, with an editor patiently responding as often happens that no we don't, but we publish debate and a range of views on the left, etc. So there's a tension there, which GLW has in the main used creatively, though can't resolve, at least until the broader party that the broader paper has always been meant to encourage can come about. This project of course has had its ups and down, to say the least, but the potential is still there, in a better form than the Greens (see, for example, the Tasmanian Greens recent support for a neo-liberal budget, as part of the government there). Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the World Socialist Web Site
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Ed Lewis: And don't worry Nick, Ben and others, no one except a few even smaller sects on the Australian left wants Green Left's niche. You and others have worked hard for it and are comfortable in it, and it's all yours, so you can relax. Don't worry Ed, I've never been worried about anything you opine (nor have I expressed any particular worry, or feelings of being relaxed or comfortable, in this discussion, so don't tell me what I think and feel if you don't mind). As a matter of fact, though, the considerable number of non-Socialist Alliance people who write articles for and letters to, and want their events listed in and pay for advertising in GLW seem interested in its niche. What Australian broad left publications exactly are you comparing GLW unfavourably to in this regard? But you've never let facts facts get in the way of a smug jibe have you Ed? Rather than hackneyed generalities about the web taken over from print and all socialist group being sects, I think a more concrete discussion of how print media, which are not yet redundant, can be used by the as well as electronic media, and how socialist organisation best relates to socialist media today, is more useful. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Laurie Penny's ultraleftist stupidity
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Bill Quimby quotes some anarchist dickheads: The emphasis was to be on a family-friendly day out without frightening the horses. And a great thing it was too. Those with families, such as myself and the majority of the working class, actually appreciate the opportunity to protest and take hold of the streets raising radical demands without having to worry about juvenile dickheads and/or cop provocateurs threatening our children's safety (we can't discount the uniformed cops doing it of course, but they usually don't try it on with massive crowds in a bourgeois democracy). As the Beastie Boys wisely put it once, *when* it's time to wreck shop *then* shop I'll wreck (Time to Build, 2004, emphasis added). Thankfully the campaign against anti-union government laws here in Australia in 2005-07 was free of such infantilism. It was more a specifically union/workplace issue and union peak body-run than the current broad-based UK campaign, but it consisted of at least two rounds of action proportionately larger than the London rally (600 000 and 350 000) and taking place on week days (i.e. illegal strikes by a large proportion of attendees), and involved thousands of activists, many young and new, in dozens of local cross-union groups. The fact that the impressive movement of mass action and broad participation of 2005-06 was largely demobilised in 2007 (there were some local actions such as our by local group that year) and achieved only a very partial victory had nothing whatsoever to do with a lack of broken windows. It had to do with a decision by the bureaucrats to avoid national mobilisation and tailor the demands of the movement to the Labor Party's platform, rather than independent opposition to anti-union and anti-worker laws, in an election year. We knew all along this was likely to happen but our perspective, which had some modest positive influence on events, was to throw ourselves in and argue for independent mass action rather than either liberalism or ultra-leftism. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] First large scale survey of the views of Australian Muslims
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Just published in the 'online first' section of the leading organ of Australian sociology, the Journal of Sociology, is a report on the first quantitative study of the views of Australian Muslims, with results that are interesting and useful in countering Islamophobia. As you can see below the researchers used a clever method of getting a decent-sized and representative sample via approaching attendees at the largest Muslim festival here, the Eidfest in Brisbane. Anyone with a student or staff login to a uni library should be able to access the PDF of the full article. If someone who had it was contacted offlist that someone might be able to pass it on. Towards understanding what Australia's Muslims really think Halim Rane h.r...@griffith.edu.au, Griffith University, Australia Mahmood Nathie, Griffith University, Australia Ben Isakhan, LaTrobe University, Australia Mohamad Abdalla, Griffith University Abstract Over the past decade, issues concerning Islam and Muslims have featured prominently in public and media discourse. Much of this discourse is stereotypical, anecdotal and often unsubstantiated. Indeed, relative to the extent of comment on Islam and Muslims, few factual data exist on what Muslims really think. This article presents the views and opinions of the Queensland Muslim community based on the findings of a survey conducted at the 2009 Muslim Eid Festival in Brisbane. The findings of this research contradict many of the assumptions made about Australia’s Muslims concerning their views and opinions on a range of social and political issues. The research shows that Muslims highly value Australia’s key social and political institutions, including its democracy, judiciary, education and health-care systems. However, Muslims do express a lack of trust in certain institutions, namely the mass media. Also, consistent with the views of people globally, Muslims are deeply concerned about conflicts in the Middle East as well as the environmental crisis. This article suggests the need for a shift in public discourse to more accurately reflect the commonality, rather than incongruity, between Muslim views, opinions and concerns and those of the wider society. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Socialist Alternative's slander of Socialist Alliance on Libya
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == johnedmund...@paradise.net.nz: I believe the appropriate response in these times is LOL or some similar acronym. Well John it should be funny as SAlt here really is descending into the Pythonesque: we're not the fucking Peoples Front of Judea, they may have exactly the same line and tactics on Samaria as us now, but one tablet from 25 BC, outrageous! But FFS was my response when seeing the screed in question, after observing some near Spart-like behaviour from SAlt members at a University of Melbourne orientation week stall a couple of weeks ago, and being told of similar antics at a demo (at the uni stall, in the spirit of comradeship I suggested that they could start blaming and hassling us for Fidel bombing the Eritreans in the 70s, but they didn't appear grateful). BTW, Peter Boyle has provided some context to his sordid past in response to my posting of this on the Green left list, at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GreenLeft_discussion/message/73761, including reminding me that *he* had made public the fawning 1987 article in question. A comment from me on that: On 14 Mar, 2011,at 09:34 AM, Peter Boyle pet...@greenleftorg.au wrote: Ironically I probably helped Corey Okley do this bit of point-scoring (replete with selective quoting and rivers-of-blood-between-So cAlt-and-Stalinist-Socialist-Alliance posturing) by posting my 1987 Direct Action article here: http://peterb1953.wordpress.com/2011/02/25/what-i-wro ...te-about-a-visit-to-libya-24-years-ago/http://peterb1953.wordpress.com/2011/02/25/what-i-wrote-about-a-visit-to-libya-24-years-ago/ I did this in the spirit of breaking from the sad left legacy of claiming to have always had the right line. I'd forgotten Peter had posted this previously. I'd assumed SAlt leaders had instructed Corey to go forth and find the old DA archives at some library and dig up some dirt that they remembered about. The fact that Corey seems to have known that this was online, and didn't link to it so readers could judge for themselves whether it really was fawning etc etc (which it certainly isn't), the lack of which link also implies that he's done some brilliant investigative journalism that has dug up a guilty secret, damns him and his organisation's truly sordid campaign on this issue just a bit more. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Labor stalwarts leave to stand as Socialist Alliance candidates
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 17 Feb, 2011,at 04:23 PM, Stuart Munckton stuartmunck...@gmail.com wrote: �Under Premier Kristina Keneally and the corrupt, undemocratic mafia running the party, the ALP no longer stands for anything progressive, much less the interests of working class families� said Luis Ernesto Almario and Rosendo Duran, on resigning from the ALP after more than 20 years between then as ALP member (see resignation letter at end of media release) . Don't these people realise all the opportunities that a career in the ALP provides to fight for working people? You know, like the hard working board members of BHP Billiton and Qantas: BHP Billiton has boosted its lobbying power, hiring Kevin Rudd's former chief of staff David Epstein to oversee its liaisons with government. Before joining BHP Billiton late last year Epstein held an equivalent role at Qantas, which is arguably the nation's most politically astute company. http://www.theage.com.au/business/big-firm-big-profit-big-problem-20110216-1awpu.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Video: Melbourne solidarity with Egypt rally, Feb 4
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == http://socialistalliancemelbourne.blogspot.com/2011/02/solidarity-with-egypt-rally-february-4.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] A challenge to mechanical anti-imperialism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Louis: the search is always for proof that some movement speaking in the name of democracy has been tainted by contact or funding from the CIA. This despite the fact that Fidel Castro had exactly such contacts when he was fighting Batista. And weren't US operatives were parachuting in to have friendly chats with the equally tactically astute Ho Chi Minh around 1945, with equally dismal results for the empire? I see your point about not making too much about such contacts, but the State Department, while clearly flat-footed by the current Arab uprising, *is* of course making every effort to bend every popular movement into a course safe for the USA. Not least least by recruiting excellent young social media dudes and, with the current administration, co-opting a mushy version of leftist discourse, like NGO and aid agency types have done for several decades. The latter is a big problem for the Third World left, and a negative expression, along with mushy social liberalism generally, of the nature of the highly educated sections of the aristocracy of the working class today, and the union, movement and aid bureaucracies based on such layers (there are positive expressions, such as the progressive aspects of the Greens here in Australia). James Harkin has written about the State Department-Silicon Valley cyber diplomacy and the need for a bit of scepticism about social media in a review essay in the London Review of Books: On a balmy evening in April 2009 Barham Salih, then deputy prime minister of Iraq, sat in the garden of his Baghdad villa while a young internet entrepreneur called Jack Dorsey tried to persuade him that he needed to be on Twitter. Dorsey, the founder of Twitter, was in Baghdad at the invitation of the State Department. Over the previous three days, he and eight other Silicon Valley bigwigs, kitted out with helmets and flak jackets, had been bundled around Baghdad in an armoured convoy, meeting anyone there was to meet. They’d been introduced to the prime minister’s council of advisers, glad-handed the Iraqi Investment National Commission and spoken to a group of engineering students from Baghdad University; they’d even had time to fit in a visit to the Iraqi National Museum. Among them were several high-ranking engineers from Google, the founder of the community organising tool Meetup, a vice-president of the firm behind the blogging platform WordPress, and an executive from Blue State Digital, the internet strategy firm that had done a fair bit to help Obama to the presidency the previous November... Since that initial visit to Iraq, Cohen and his colleague Alec Ross, who worked on Obama’s presidential campaign, have led a series of technology delegations to any number of countries – among them, Afghanistan, Mexico and Russia. In between, they’re busy tweeting. With their backslapping banter punctuated with words like ‘dude’ and ‘awesome’, the pair come across as the Bill and Ted of 21st-century statecraft, on an excellent adventure to bring the wonders of social media to the rest of the world. Full: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n23/james-harkin/cyber-con Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
