Re: [Marxism] [ufpj-activist] Al Jazeera: After repelling ISIL, PKK fighters are the new heroes of Kurdistan
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * You might be interested in a similar exchange Robert Naiman and I have been having on the Pen-L list: On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:20 AM, Robert Naiman nai...@justforeignpolicy.org wrote: Are you sure that what the article describes about PKK rule in Syria is absolutely determined by historical circumstance? Were areas of Spain under the security control of anarchist and anarcho-syndicalist militias between 1936-1939 like that? If not, should we be so quick to dismiss those concerns? I remember, as an activist opposing Reagan's war in Central America in the 1980s, hearing some really bad things about the FMLN. People around me said: oh, that's just propaganda against the FMLN. Later, after the war, people admitted that some of those things were true. Would it be so terrible to acknowledge that such things are sometimes true at the time, instead of waiting until later? Wouldn’t that increase our credibility with people who know at the time that such things are sometimes true? MG: The Spanish anarchists, in the heat of the struggle, also did not shrink from executing priests, landlords and industrialists, and suspected traitors in their communities and ranks (“Fifth Columnists”), which led to excesses (“extrajudicial killings”) described here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia#Crimes. However, I do think it’s true that the farther right you go along the political spectrum, the more organized and brutal is the application of terror and violence against civilians, largely because the ruling classes in revolutionary situations employ the army and right-wing paramilitaries against the mass of the population which is threatening their power and property under the leadership of left-wing movements. At least, it used to be that way. Today, most civil conflicts are less about class than about race, ethnicity, and religion, and murderous violence against non-combatants is equally distributed on all sides. I’m fully in agreement with you that these abuses should be acknowledged when they occur rather than denied or swept under the rug for the reasons you mentioned. In most cases, however, those in authority always feel it will weaken the belief of their followers that their cause is unsullied, with a resultant decline in motivation and defections from the ranks. Wasn’t that the rationale for many secondary leaders and supporters of the Stalinist CP’s who turned a blind eye to the persecution of their erstwhile anarchist and Trotskyist comrades under the most preposterous pretexts? On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:10 AM, Marv Gandall marvga...@gmail.com wrote: Basically the fear is that the PKK can be controlling and ruthless, but I think that is characteristic of all besieged movements and regimes across the political spectrum engaged in a war of survival. The need for strict discipline and loyalty comes to the fore and is widely accepted, but excesses invariably do occur. I don’t offhand know of any historical instance where this has not been the case. The article in weighted in favour of the PKK’s role and enhanced standing in Iraq, with proper mention given to a few dissident voices. On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:47 AM, Robert Naiman nai...@justforeignpolicy.org wrote: This is a strikingly great article, in the sense that it shows you not only that the PKK fighters are now viewed as heroes by many Kurds who did not view them so before because of their recent role in saving Kurdish civilians from ISIS, but also shows you why many Kurds have perfectly legitimate reasons to fear rule by the PKK. This is outstanding journalism of a type that we often don't get to see, presenting a nuanced picture that is more complicated than good guys and bad guys. On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Marv Gandall marvga...@gmail.com wrote: Below is the link to a report in today’s English language edition of Al Jazeera describing how the heroic defence of Kobane by the YPG/J, the militia allied to the Kurdish left-wing parties in Syria (PYD) and Turkey (PKK), has been drawing strong support from Iraqi Kurds. The latter have hitherto been generally loyal to the more conservative party of Masoud Barzani which heads Iraq’s Kurdish Regional Government. But the Barzani government’s close commercial and diplomatic ties with Turkey and the US has been reflected in its hesitant support of the YPG/J, eroding the government’s base of support among Iraqi Kurds inspired by Kobane and themselves directly threatened by the Islamic State. This development very likely contributed to the accelerated use of American air
Re: [Marxism] [ufpj-activist] Al Jazeera: After repelling ISIL, PKK fighters are the new heroes of Kurdistan
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * You might be interested in a similar exchange Robert Naiman and I have been having on the Pen-L list: On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:20 AM, Robert Naiman nai...@justforeignpolicy.org wrote: Are you sure that what the article describes about PKK rule in Syria is absolutely determined by historical circumstance? Were areas of Spain under the security control of anarchist and anarcho-syndicalist militias between 1936-1939 like that? If not, should we be so quick to dismiss those concerns? I remember, as an activist opposing Reagan's war in Central America in the 1980s, hearing some really bad things about the FMLN. People around me said: oh, that's just propaganda against the FMLN. Later, after the war, people admitted that some of those things were true. Would it be so terrible to acknowledge that such things are sometimes true at the time, instead of waiting until later? Wouldn’t that increase our credibility with people who know at the time that such things are sometimes true? MG: The Spanish anarchists, in the heat of the struggle, also did not shrink from executing priests, landlords and industrialists, and suspected traitors in their communities and ranks (“Fifth Columnists”), which led to excesses (“extrajudicial killings”) described here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia#Crimes. However, I do think it’s true that the farther right you go along the political spectrum, the more organized and brutal is the application of terror and violence against civilians, largely because the ruling classes in revolutionary situations employ the army and right-wing paramilitaries against the mass of the population which is threatening their power and property under the leadership of left-wing movements. At least, it used to be that way. Today, most civil conflicts are less about class than about race, ethnicity, and religion, and murderous violence against non-combatants is equally distributed on all sides. I’m fully in agreement with you that these abuses should be acknowledged when they occur rather than denied or swept under the rug for the reasons you mentioned. In most cases, however, those in authority always feel it will weaken the belief of their followers that their cause is unsullied, with a resultant decline in motivation and defections from the ranks. Wasn’t that the rationale for many secondary leaders and supporters of the Stalinist CP’s who turned a blind eye to the persecution of their erstwhile anarchist and Trotskyist comrades under the most preposterous pretexts? On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 10:10 AM, Marv Gandall marvga...@gmail.com wrote: Basically the fear is that the PKK can be controlling and ruthless, but I think that is characteristic of all besieged movements and regimes across the political spectrum engaged in a war of survival. The need for strict discipline and loyalty comes to the fore and is widely accepted, but excesses invariably do occur. I don’t offhand know of any historical instance where this has not been the case. The article in weighted in favour of the PKK’s role and enhanced standing in Iraq, with proper mention given to a few dissident voices. On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:47 AM, Robert Naiman nai...@justforeignpolicy.org wrote: This is a strikingly great article, in the sense that it shows you not only that the PKK fighters are now viewed as heroes by many Kurds who did not view them so before because of their recent role in saving Kurdish civilians from ISIS, but also shows you why many Kurds have perfectly legitimate reasons to fear rule by the PKK. This is outstanding journalism of a type that we often don't get to see, presenting a nuanced picture that is more complicated than good guys and bad guys. On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Marv Gandall marvga...@gmail.com wrote: Below is the link to a report in today’s English language edition of Al Jazeera describing how the heroic defence of Kobane by the YPG/J, the militia allied to the Kurdish left-wing parties in Syria (PYD) and Turkey (PKK), has been drawing strong support from Iraqi Kurds. The latter have hitherto been generally loyal to the more conservative party of Masoud Barzani which heads Iraq’s Kurdish Regional Government. But the Barzani government’s close commercial and diplomatic ties with Turkey and the US has been reflected in its hesitant support of the YPG/J, eroding the government’s base of support among Iraqi Kurds inspired by Kobane and themselves directly threatened by the Islamic State. This development very likely contributed to the accelerated use of American air
Re: [Marxism] [ufpj-activist] Al Jazeera: After repelling ISIL, PKK fighters are the new heroes of Kurdistan
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Brecht's play, The Measures Taken (Die Maßnahme) is appropriate reading with respect to decisions made in the heat of a struggle for revolutionary change. I remember a colleague decrying the treatment of Chinese-Vietnamese after the war in Viet Nam. The US government brutalizes a country for years, killing millions and she wondered why this didn't lead to a flowering of kindness and forgiveness. No reason to condone inhumane behavior, but no reason to turn against a revolutionary movement either. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
