[Marxism] Impeach Trump
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Two things. First, why the Atlantic and other organs of liberal ruling class opinion finally feel that they need to impeach Trump should not be that hard to understand. Trump almost certainly committed textbook treason in pursuit of a few dollars. They don't care about the money as long as he is not robbing them personally, but they do care about his project of wrecking the long term global project of NATO, the European Union, and American military power parked on bases all over the world so that his handlers in Russia can recover some of Russia's own dissolving power. Second, WE (Marxists and revolutionaries) should be happy that THEY (the liberals) want to impeach Trump for our own entirely different reasons. Put simply, we want to see the ruling class's political chumminess blow up. We want them to hate each other, fight each other, destroy each other's power, and in the process and MOST IMPORTANTLY, radically weaken the legitimacy of the bourgeois state in the eyes of the working class and the oppress. We should be happy when Trump wants to close a US military base because we want to destroy US impoerialism, but not in order to support the military designs of Assad, Putin, or some other capitalist despot. Our agenda is not to replace US imperialism with Russian, Chinese or any other imperialism, but to help foment world-wide socialist revolution (as improbably as that may sound to those who have given up on this great project). There are any number of little issues that follow, like the disgusting and evil Mikhail Pence. A Pence presidency will be one of crisis, whether or not the bourgeoisie can use it to patch up the palace or not after Humpty Trumpty's great fall will depend on what the masses do outside the palace. I am not talking about revolution here, I am talking about LA teacher's strikes. It will also depend on other factors outside of the palace like war and the world economy. Best, Anthony _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Impeach Trump Now - The Atlantic
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * If you think we've seen gridlock in Washington now, just put Pence in the White House. Combine the authoritarian impulses and arrogance of media celebrity of Trump with the self-righteousness of an evangelical. Mind you, I prefer gridlock. There are few there who place any priority on doing us any good. (With a few exceptions, those eager young "progressives" who've appeared since the election mostly just look "progressive" standing alongside the Trumpified Republicans.) Whenever the bulk of them agree on something--that's the majority of the Congress, the White House, and the judiciary--it's almost always going to be bad for us. I mean, they've created the greatest structural polarization of wealth in history. And it still wasn't enough, so they had to do that "tax reform." And worse, nobody with any clout knows how to fight it or just doesn't want to fight it. . . . And I don't mean going to the polls and voting for more of the same. The official labor movement is so dead useless on this scale that you have Republican congressman quietly hoping the air traffic controllers will strike. A nice 24-hour general strike would be a damned good start to getting our brothers and sisters now forced to work for nothing some assistance. (btw, didn't we fight a goddamned civil war over that "involuntary sevitude" crap?) Or even a mass march on Washington--I mean hundreds of thousands of millions and not just paid lobbyists with a few celebrities. But, of course, such things would scare the crap out of almost all of them . . . which is exactly what we need to do . . . if we're serious. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Impeach Trump Now - The Atlantic
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Pence will not be more effective if his administration is one starting from the impeachment of Trump. An impeachment and removal requires the Republican controlled Senate, while Trump's base will still be with him and outraged at all the Republicans involved in conviction. I have no doubt that the remaining term will not be a productive one. So I don't think, "Pence could be worse!", is a very good argument against impeachment in the first place, and I really don't see how it can be considered even a realistic issue that he'd be able to more effectively implement Trump policy after an impeachment. Tristan _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Impeach Trump Now - The Atlantic
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I fully agree with John -- I can't for the life of me understand the effort to impeach Trump --- he is a great "organizer" for the liberal-to-left coalition -- without Trump we woulnd't have half the progressives in Congress now --- nor would we have lots of potential Presidential candidates supporting Medicare for All -- and PENCE would do everything Trump is doing in terms of substantive policy MORE EFFECTIVELY -- (and on foreign policy, he'd go back to the new Cold War approaches of the establishment -- Trump may be an idiot but his foreign pollicy is actually weakening the American empire -- of course assuming he doesn't start WW III ... I have tried to argue against support for impeachment over and over again but it seems there are MANY TOO MANY people on the left (who should definitely know better) who are letting their (justified) hatred of Trump get the better of their judgement --- I with there was places where a left wing attack on the efforts to impeach Trump could get some exposure ... > This article seems to me an example of an unfounded reverence for the > infallibility of the US Constitution: "It is absurd to suggest that the > Constitution would delineate a mechanism too potent to ever actually be > employed." Actually it is perfectly possible for the constitution to be > flawed, it allows for slavery after all. > > It surprises me that these people are so keen to impeach Trump. Do they > really see a rosier future under President Pence? > > Cheers, > John > > > > > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Impeach Trump Now - The Atlantic
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * > On Jan 18, 2019, at 3:50 PM, John Edmundson via Marxism > wrote: > > This article seems to me an example of an unfounded reverence for the > infallibility of the US Constitution: "It is absurd to suggest that the > Constitution would delineate a mechanism too potent to ever actually be > employed." Actually it is perfectly possible for the constitution to be > flawed, it allows for slavery after all. The author clearly reveres the Constitution, but the point being made here doesn’t require such reverence. The author’s point isn’t that the US Constitution can’t be flawed; it’s simply that if impeachment posed an existential threat to the political order the US Constitution founds — as the breathless pundits regularly insinuate — then it wouldn’t have been included. The issue isn’t whether it’s flawed, but whether it’s effectively self-defeating. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Impeach Trump Now - The Atlantic
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * This article seems to me an example of an unfounded reverence for the infallibility of the US Constitution: "It is absurd to suggest that the Constitution would delineate a mechanism too potent to ever actually be employed." Actually it is perfectly possible for the constitution to be flawed, it allows for slavery after all. It surprises me that these people are so keen to impeach Trump. Do they really see a rosier future under President Pence? Cheers, John On Sat, Jan 19, 2019 at 2:13 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > > https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/impeachment-trump/580468/ > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/johnedmundson4%40gmail.com > -- The law locks up the man or woman Who steals the goose from off the common But leaves the greater villain loose Who steals the common from the goose _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Impeach Trump Now - The Atlantic
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/impeachment-trump/580468/ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Impeach
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * could not agree more with David --- impeachment is a ridiculous trap --- (now -- hauling members of the CABINET before the House and impeaching them for their various crimes -- EPA administrator, DeVos, Nielsen --- that would be a different and much more fruitful approach) > What a waste of political effort. I actually don't disagree with what Jacob > states for the most part, however, he really failed to make the *legal* > case of impeachment. ["Abuse of power" is hardly impeachable unless it a > specific "high crime" really.] But more importantly this is a total > *distraction* from what needs to be done which is developing opposition to > Trump *and* Pence POLICIES. Impeaching Trump is irrelevant IMO. The > policies will continue, *perhaps worse!* under a Pence Presidency. > > David > _ > > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] impeach
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Impeachment as the end goal is potentially a distraction. Impeachment as part of a broader effort to highlight and oppose a deeper set of issues seems to be an intelligent strategy. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Impeach
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * What a waste of political effort. I actually don't disagree with what Jacob states for the most part, however, he really failed to make the *legal* case of impeachment. ["Abuse of power" is hardly impeachable unless it a specific "high crime" really.] But more importantly this is a total *distraction* from what needs to be done which is developing opposition to Trump *and* Pence POLICIES. Impeaching Trump is irrelevant IMO. The policies will continue, *perhaps worse!* under a Pence Presidency. David _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Impeach
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/11/09/impeach/ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
