Re: [Marxism] Jacobin editor urges voting for Clinton in swing states
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * To clarify--as if I need to, given how many times I've addressed this--I am happy that Sanders is doing as well as he is. This is a good sign. I don't agree with every position he takes or every formulation he chooses, but I don't have to in order to support him. It is not my hopes, my time, my efforts, my energies, and my voice behind the effort because I am absolutely certain that it does not point to a solution. This is not due to any dogmatism on my part but because the candidate himself has indicated that, in the end, he will support Clinton, which is absolutely deplorable. The New Deal began over 80 years ago and FDR died a bit over 70 years ago. For most of the young supporters of Sanders, these things mean about as much as did the Mugwumps for those us coming up in the 1960s. I'd argue that that train pulled out of the Democratic Party's station when it repudiated and maligned Henry Wallace in favor of Truman and the Cold War. The party's priorities also trumped LBJ's largely rhetorical attempt to rediscover the appeal of the New Deal with his War on Poverty. Ever since, then, the Democratic Party has periodically chanted the New Deal litanies only to appeal to a certain aging demographic. As to the appeal of Scandinavian "socialism," Louis' articles on this subject have been tremendously well-researched, well-informed, and very accessible. I've never seen a single serious refutation of his recital of the record. Finally, I would remind everyone that what's sparked this exchange is not an argument over whether or not to support Sanders but over whether or not to support Clinton. So I suppose that going ballistic or threatening to go ballistic might be the best defense anyone can make for urging people to do that. ML _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Jacobin editor urges voting for Clinton in swing states
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I have a long piece on Sweden, Sanders and Socialism that will be up on the North Star website tomorrow that begins with a reference to their articles in that newspaper of the lunch-pail toting proletarian--the Washington Post. On 4/5/16 1:36 PM, Ralph Johansen via Marxism wrote: I wonder if those who oppose participation of list readers in the Sanders campaign would comment on what John Bellamy Foster writes here. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Jacobin editor urges voting for Clinton in swing states
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 4/4/16 3:41 PM, Michael Yates via Marxism wrote: Halle has turned into one of the biggest jackasses on the internet, accusing anyone, in the most slanderous terms, of being ultra leftists and elitists if they are not all-in for Bernie Sanders. He so much wants the approval of the Brooklyn "intellectuals" close to Jacobin that he seems not to be able to help himself. ... Without going ballistic (given some of the caustic comments that have been made here), I wonder if those who oppose participation of list readers in the Sanders campaign would comment on what John Bellamy Foster writes here. Does Sanders's campaign have all of the attributes that Foster ascribes to it? How far would you go in endorsing (and as opposed to what viable alternative, aside from protesting to no discernible effect) what Foster says here https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/in-theory/wp/2016/03/23/is-democratic-socialism-the-american-dream/? Foster writes, to quote at random: '...the present dismal state of the U.S. economy and the impetus behind Bernie Sanders’s electoral campaign, which is aimed at the needs of workers and working families...In advocating democratic socialism, Sanders has promoted a pragmatic politics of the leftHe advocates job programs in the tradition of the New Deal. All of these proposals represent things that have been accomplished in other countries, particularly the Scandinavian social democracies, where the populations are better off according to every social indicator. By portraying them as possible here, Sanders has brought the idea of socialism — even a moderate kind — from the margins into the center of U.S. political culyure...“Online social networking has allowed Sanders supporters to reinforce one another’s beliefs, so that the general shutout of Sanders by the mainstream media — and even a good deal of the leftist media — has allowed Sanders to survive where he would have suffocated even in 2008.”...If there is any larger lesson here it is the resilience and widespread appeal of socialism with its root egalitarian valuesReal, live democracy leads in the direction of socialism. For millions of Americans today, what Sanders is expressing in his idea of democratic socialism is nothing less than the American Dream.' He is, to the consternation of the powers in charge, 'arousing the sleeping dogs of class struggle,' and articulating them well. Who else in a comparably broad venue is doing so? And despite what follows in the presidential arena, do you really think that the effect on his constituents of exposure to his message and the new awareness of their large numbers will in net effect be more negative than positive? And assuming that it is positive, and without getting into the thicket of the tacit endorsement of Hillary by the Jacobin editor which I oppose, that right now, with Sanders surging, every shoulder to this wheel is needed for that reason (as well as for the credibility of the small, scattered, disorganized left wing in the US)? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Jacobin editor urges voting for Clinton in swing states
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I'm not sure I'm following the train of thought here. Is the issue that John Halle endorsed Bernie and then switched, allegedly to please the people who write for Jacobin? That sounds kind of bizarre. I was not very close with him during my days at Bard but I remember him being fairly principled. Then again I don't think we were Facebook friends. - Amith On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > On 4/4/16 3:41 PM, Michael Yates via Marxism wrote: > >> Halle has turned into one of the biggest jackasses on the internet, >> accusing anyone, in the most slanderous terms, of being ultra >> leftists and elitists if they are not all-in for Bernie Sanders. He >> so much wants the approval of the Brooklyn "intellectuals" close to >> Jacobin that he seems not to be able to help himself. >> > > I suppose it is my saving grace that I am way too old to be a Brooklyn > hipster. > > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Jacobin editor urges voting for Clinton in swing states
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 4/4/16 3:41 PM, Michael Yates via Marxism wrote: Halle has turned into one of the biggest jackasses on the internet, accusing anyone, in the most slanderous terms, of being ultra leftists and elitists if they are not all-in for Bernie Sanders. He so much wants the approval of the Brooklyn "intellectuals" close to Jacobin that he seems not to be able to help himself. I suppose it is my saving grace that I am way too old to be a Brooklyn hipster. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Jacobin editor urges voting for Clinton in swing states
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Louis Proyect says, "I probably should have mentioned that I learned about this on John Halle's timeline, who endorsed it. Halle was at one time very strong on the "lesser evil" question. I imagine that there is a lot of social pressure to adapt to the Democrats this year. If you printed out all the articles ventilating about Trump, they'd probably reach the planet Mars." Halle has turned into one of the biggest jackasses on the internet, accusing anyone, in the most slanderous terms, of being ultra leftists and elitists if they are not all-in for Bernie Sanders. He so much wants the approval of the Brooklyn "intellectuals" close to Jacobin that he seems not to be able to help himself. His saving grace is that his prose is dreadful, and no halfway intelligent person could bear to read it. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Jacobin editor urges voting for Clinton in swing states
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Bhaskar Sunkara on KPFK's Beneath the Surface with Suzi Weissman (4/1/16): "I think there's a tough decision that people are going to have to make with the Clinton campaign, particularly if she's going up against someone as reactionary as Donald Trump and the social forces that he represents. I think there will be two dominant positions at first: one will be an unfortunate "Progressives for Hillary" (tendency . . . arguing) that we all need to unite around Hillary Clinton to beat the far right which will neutralize a lot of what was unique about the Sanders campaign, the unique message and the battle against the democratic establishment. "On the other hand, I think there's going to be a move to just dismiss people's fears about Donald Trump and to encourage them to go down the avenue of just voting their hearts, even in swing states, and not considering the option of going with Hillary Clinton. I think our position should be not to rally behind Hillary Clinton but also not to tell people that no matter where they should under no circumstances-Virginia, Ohio, Florida-consider voting for her tactically. "We should have that middle ground where we are not aloof from the concerns of people but that we're also aware of dissolving the energy and message of the Sanders campaign into the Clinton campaign." _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
