Re: [Marxism] Vietnamese demonstrate against Chinese imperialism
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Thanks for this thoughtful and convincing observations! Am 20.06.2018 um 17:37 schrieb mkaradjis: The CPV has built "some relations" with the US, yes, but this is exaggerated. If you read these articles carefully you will note that despite their dispute over the islands, Vietnam has also maintained strong relations with China. As I explained, the anti-Chinese opposition calls the CPV government "communist traitors" for allegedly selling out to China, which on the islands question is an absurd charge, because the CPV strongly pushes Vietnam's claim, only insisting. correctly, that no blood should be spilt over the fate of uninhabited islands. Therefore, the anti-China nationalist opposition implies that they advocate war to push for Vietnam's sovereignty over the islands; and this can only mean support for a stronger alliance with the US, which the CPV rejects. I don;t mean the broad movement described here, because as I said, it is of very mixed consciousness and has a strongly progressive thrust, but I mean the more ideologically right-wing nationalist spokespeople. Vietnam's policy is one of balance between the US and China. But what is often overlooked is that, as a counterweight to both, Vietnam has actually built up very strong relations with Russia. Given the Putin regime's reactionary role in the world, that is certainly no better than an alliance with the US, but geography matters; Vietnam is not Syria or Ukraine. Where Vietnam is, the main danger is not the US or Russia, but the gigantic Empire hovering right above it, on its land and sea borders. For those of us awed by China's astonishing growth and its enormous projection of power, like the trillion-dollar ''Belt and Road Initiative' traversing Eurasia, imagine being a small country like Vietnam under its shadow, when the colossus has already attacked several times in living memory and lays claim to the entire sea up to your coastline. But given its own history with the US, naturally Vietnam wants to avoid falling too much under a US shadow, even if it is currently less dangerous than China. A Russian tilt is therefore a pragmatic choice. So it is Russia that Vietnam offers to build its first nuclear plant; it is Russia that has been offered the rights to develop Cam Ranh Bay, the former American base in the south during the war; it is Russia that has sold Vietnam advanced submarines with the capacity to do damage to the Chinese navy should it become necessary. -- Revolutionär-Kommunistische Organisation BEFREIUNG (Österreichische Sektion der RCIT, www.thecommunists.net) www.rkob.net ak...@rkob.net Tel./SMS/WhatsApp/Telegram: +43-650-4068314 --- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Vietnamese demonstrate against Chinese imperialism
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 6:42 PM, RKOB via Marxism wrote: > I know that that Vietnam's CPV regime has built some relations with the U.S. > as a counterweight to China (what an irony of history!) > Do you know what is the sentiment among those anti-regime, anti-Chinese, > partly anti-communist sectors of the population towards such a "flirt" of > the regime with the other old enemy? > The CPV has built "some relations" with the US, yes, but this is exaggerated. If you read these articles carefully you will note that despite their dispute over the islands, Vietnam has also maintained strong relations with China. As I explained, the anti-Chinese opposition calls the CPV government "communist traitors" for allegedly selling out to China, which on the islands question is an absurd charge, because the CPV strongly pushes Vietnam's claim, only insisting. correctly, that no blood should be spilt over the fate of uninhabited islands. Therefore, the anti-China nationalist opposition implies that they advocate war to push for Vietnam's sovereignty over the islands; and this can only mean support for a stronger alliance with the US, which the CPV rejects. I don;t mean the broad movement described here, because as I said, it is of very mixed consciousness and has a strongly progressive thrust, but I mean the more ideologically right-wing nationalist spokespeople. Vietnam's policy is one of balance between the US and China. But what is often overlooked is that, as a counterweight to both, Vietnam has actually built up very strong relations with Russia. Given the Putin regime's reactionary role in the world, that is certainly no better than an alliance with the US, but geography matters; Vietnam is not Syria or Ukraine. Where Vietnam is, the main danger is not the US or Russia, but the gigantic Empire hovering right above it, on its land and sea borders. For those of us awed by China's astonishing growth and its enormous projection of power, like the trillion-dollar ''Belt and Road Initiative' traversing Eurasia, imagine being a small country like Vietnam under its shadow, when the colossus has already attacked several times in living memory and lays claim to the entire sea up to your coastline. But given its own history with the US, naturally Vietnam wants to avoid falling too much under a US shadow, even if it is currently less dangerous than China. A Russian tilt is therefore a pragmatic choice. So it is Russia that Vietnam offers to build its first nuclear plant; it is Russia that has been offered the rights to develop Cam Ranh Bay, the former American base in the south during the war; it is Russia that has sold Vietnam advanced submarines with the capacity to do damage to the Chinese navy should it become necessary. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Vietnamese demonstrate against Chinese imperialism
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Thanks for these interesting remarks and observations! I know that that Vietnam's CPV regime has built some relations with the U.S. as a counterweight to China (what an irony of history!) Do you know what is the sentiment among those anti-regime, anti-Chinese, partly anti-communist sectors of the population towards such a "flirt" of the regime with the other old enemy? Am 19.06.2018 um 14:01 schrieb mkaradjis: That's a good article, and I agree with its main message, that this movement against granting 99 year leases to SEZ's is much, much more than mere "anti-China nationalism." At the same time, that element is there. Here is another in-depth article that stresses the nationalistic element more, but is well worth reading: http://chuangcn.org/2018/06/vn-sez-sinophobia/ It's a rather complex mix: China is an emerging imperialist power (and even those who disagree will see it as sub-imperialist, or at least much closer to being imperialist than Vietnam!); its companies play a dominant and very exploitative role in Vietnam; much of the anti-China sentiment among workers targets Chinese - *and Taiwanese* - companies whose factory regimes are considered significantly more exploitative and militaristic than either those western MNCs (who can afford a little better) or, significantly, than local Vietnamese companies; while no-one should ever consider going to war over rocky islands in the South China Sea, the fact that it is the local superpower, China, claiming the entire sea as its own, right up the virtual sea borders of Vietnam, and acting aggressively on it (eg including ramming Vietnamese fishing boats and kidnapping dirt-poor Vietnamese fisherfolk); all these aspects mean that there is a certain progressive and anti-imperialist, even anti-capitalist, thrust to Vietnamese nationalism. On the other hand, there *is* an ugly chauvinism as well brewing behind some of this. Of course, this may draw on valid historical issues (China ruled Vietnam for 1000 years, invaded in 1979, violently seized the Paracel Islands in 1974 while Vietnam was still at war, violently seized one third of the Spratley Islands (killing dozens of Vietnamese soldiers) in 1988) - but of course an overly "historical" discourse is associated with reactionary ideas (exactly as it is in China, all the drawing of maps from the Sung Dynasty of 1000 years ago to try to "prove" ownership of rocky islands etc - why not thereby prove ownership of Vietnam!). And here is the interesting thing: in China, the reactionary nationalism over dominating the South China Sea marches in step with the CCP regime, but in Vietnam the more overtly nationalistic anti-Chinese discourse is ideologically anti-communist and very anti-CPV: their key discourse is that the CPV are "communist traitors" trying to sell out the country to China! Now, this itself has different elements. In claiming the CPV want to betray to China on the question of the rocky islands can only be seen as a right-wing revanchist view, because the CPV very much pushes Vietnam's (just, in my view) claim to the islands, but simply stresses that no Vietnamese blood must be spilt over unpopulated islands. The implication is, therefore, that the anti-communist nationalists advocate war with China over the islands; and the only way that could even possibly be conceived of would be via bringing in the US. On the other hand, where this movement claims the CPV regime is selling out to *Chinese capital* by granting foreign (presumably Chinese) MNCs 99-year leases over significant pieces of real estate, this does have a progressive character, as do the objections to Chinese (and Taiwanese) industrial thuggery and environmental vandalism. Even the last can have a double character; the extent to which some elements are more guided by nationalism could well mean objecting to the leases *because* they are Chinese rather than objecting to such imperialist control in general; but I think that is greatly exaggerated: while the fact that the expected benefactors are Chinese may well have given the movement extra impetus, now when people are in motion against giving up chunks of their country to foreign-controlled SEZ's, this will tend to push the movement in the direction of opposing any such sell-outs. If you look at the photos of the demonstrations, we mostly see '99' crossed out, rather than anti-China slogans. Still another aspect is that many of those protesting today are also objecting to a new government cyber security law, increasing state online surveillance. Again, this tends to get associated with what the opposition sees as the government's "too pro-China" policy, and can
Re: [Marxism] Vietnamese demonstrate against Chinese imperialism
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * That's a good article, and I agree with its main message, that this movement against granting 99 year leases to SEZ's is much, much more than mere "anti-China nationalism." At the same time, that element is there. Here is another in-depth article that stresses the nationalistic element more, but is well worth reading: http://chuangcn.org/2018/06/vn-sez-sinophobia/ It's a rather complex mix: China is an emerging imperialist power (and even those who disagree will see it as sub-imperialist, or at least much closer to being imperialist than Vietnam!); its companies play a dominant and very exploitative role in Vietnam; much of the anti-China sentiment among workers targets Chinese - *and Taiwanese* - companies whose factory regimes are considered significantly more exploitative and militaristic than either those western MNCs (who can afford a little better) or, significantly, than local Vietnamese companies; while no-one should ever consider going to war over rocky islands in the South China Sea, the fact that it is the local superpower, China, claiming the entire sea as its own, right up the virtual sea borders of Vietnam, and acting aggressively on it (eg including ramming Vietnamese fishing boats and kidnapping dirt-poor Vietnamese fisherfolk); all these aspects mean that there is a certain progressive and anti-imperialist, even anti-capitalist, thrust to Vietnamese nationalism. On the other hand, there *is* an ugly chauvinism as well brewing behind some of this. Of course, this may draw on valid historical issues (China ruled Vietnam for 1000 years, invaded in 1979, violently seized the Paracel Islands in 1974 while Vietnam was still at war, violently seized one third of the Spratley Islands (killing dozens of Vietnamese soldiers) in 1988) - but of course an overly "historical" discourse is associated with reactionary ideas (exactly as it is in China, all the drawing of maps from the Sung Dynasty of 1000 years ago to try to "prove" ownership of rocky islands etc - why not thereby prove ownership of Vietnam!). And here is the interesting thing: in China, the reactionary nationalism over dominating the South China Sea marches in step with the CCP regime, but in Vietnam the more overtly nationalistic anti-Chinese discourse is ideologically anti-communist and very anti-CPV: their key discourse is that the CPV are "communist traitors" trying to sell out the country to China! Now, this itself has different elements. In claiming the CPV want to betray to China on the question of the rocky islands can only be seen as a right-wing revanchist view, because the CPV very much pushes Vietnam's (just, in my view) claim to the islands, but simply stresses that no Vietnamese blood must be spilt over unpopulated islands. The implication is, therefore, that the anti-communist nationalists advocate war with China over the islands; and the only way that could even possibly be conceived of would be via bringing in the US. On the other hand, where this movement claims the CPV regime is selling out to *Chinese capital* by granting foreign (presumably Chinese) MNCs 99-year leases over significant pieces of real estate, this does have a progressive character, as do the objections to Chinese (and Taiwanese) industrial thuggery and environmental vandalism. Even the last can have a double character; the extent to which some elements are more guided by nationalism could well mean objecting to the leases *because* they are Chinese rather than objecting to such imperialist control in general; but I think that is greatly exaggerated: while the fact that the expected benefactors are Chinese may well have given the movement extra impetus, now when people are in motion against giving up chunks of their country to foreign-controlled SEZ's, this will tend to push the movement in the direction of opposing any such sell-outs. If you look at the photos of the demonstrations, we mostly see '99' crossed out, rather than anti-China slogans. Still another aspect is that many of those protesting today are also objecting to a new government cyber security law, increasing state online surveillance. Again, this tends to get associated with what the opposition sees as the government's "too pro-China" policy, and can be twisted in an anti-communist fashion. Not entirely justified given that the CPV does not need to the CCP to tell it to act repressively; but by any comparison, the Chinese regime is significantly more repressive in virtually all aspects, as well as being more efficient about it (especially at online repression). In other words, many object to what they see as China's influence being both too capitalistic and too
Re: [Marxism] Vietnamese demonstrate against Chinese imperialism
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Confirming the same trend http://www.atimes.com/article/vietnam-protests-bigger-than-anti-china-nationalism/ Am 19.06.2018 um 04:28 schrieb mkaradjis via Marxism: POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Vietnam protesters clash with police over new economic zones: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44428971 Video of the demonstration in Saigon on Sunday 10 June 2018 to protest against the proposed law to lease 3 special economic zones to Chinese developers for 99 years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XEc1iHzo6s=share _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/aktiv%40rkob.net -- Revolutionär-Kommunistische Organisation BEFREIUNG (Österreichische Sektion der RCIT, www.thecommunists.net) www.rkob.net ak...@rkob.net Tel./SMS/WhatsApp/Telegram: +43-650-4068314 --- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Vietnamese demonstrate against Chinese imperialism
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Vietnam protesters clash with police over new economic zones: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44428971 Video of the demonstration in Saigon on Sunday 10 June 2018 to protest against the proposed law to lease 3 special economic zones to Chinese developers for 99 years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XEc1iHzo6s=share _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
