Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * This Israel supports Nusra story is to certain Leftists what the Benghazi story is to anti-Hiliary Republicans, they think its a good angle from which to attack the enemy to they will keep regurgitating it in various ways. That's not important. What is important is that it shows whose side they are on and it ain't the side of the revolution. Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com Linux Beach Productions Venice, CA 90291 (310) 581-1536 Read my blogs at the Linux Beach http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/ http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Of course not (military victory). There will certainly be a violent stage at some point before, during and/or after liberation. The question is will it occur in the context of a revolutionary mass mobilization led by democratic movements and parties, with decisive support from elsewhere in the region. On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:20 PM, Joseph Catron jncat...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Andrew Pollack acpolla...@gmail.com wrote: Then neither can Palestine. A military conflict? Well, no. Of course they can't! Sorry, I'm literally sputtering here at the implied notion that they could . You don't think that, do you? -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Andrew Pollack acpolla...@gmail.com wrote: Then neither can Palestine. A military conflict? Well, no. Of course they can't! Sorry, I'm literally sputtering here at the implied notion that they could. You don't think that, do you? -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Israel is not assisting Nusra, and the article doesn't say that it is. Despite the title, the only assistance to unspecified fighters (and civilians) referred to in the article is the treating of patients in Israeli hospitals. Ya'alon says the conditions for providing this medical assistance is that they don't attack Israel, the don't attack the Druze, and they keep Islamic extremists away from the border. For Islamic extremists read Nusra. There is not a shred of evidence for Israeli support for Nusra, nor for that matter for the FSA except the hospital stuff. 'Israel's Dangerous Game with Palestinian Islamists': Israeli hospital treats Palestinian fighters http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2007/feb/8/20070208-115659-5410r/?page=all; 16-year-old Gaza terrorist treated in Israeli hospital http://www.timesofisrael.com/16-year-old-gaza-terrorist-treated-in-israeli-hospital/; Israeli hospital treated both sides during Jenin battle: http://www.israel21c.org/health/israeli-hospital-treated-both-sides-during-jenin-battle/ -Original Message- From: A.R. G via Marxism Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:13 AM To: Michael Karadjis Subject: Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Could it be that Israel is helping Nusra because of recent comments that most of the opposition is being forced by international backers to accept the legitimacy of Bashar al-Assad? Perhaps they are more willing to assist opposition groups knowing that they will not succeed in overthrowing the regime, and they would be less willing to do so if the opponent were to be overthrown rather than weakened? - Amith _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/mkaradjis%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
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*
Agreed, there's a distinction between wholesale provision of medical aid
and treating a wounded soldier who they happen to come upon.
If they do the former, it's likely for the reasons you so accurately state
Amith, that it's in Israel's interest to keep the flames stoked.
Still, the headline and Joe's subject line were misleading. Anyone reading
only those and not the body of the story would assume they were talking
about guns or other explicitly military/training/intelligence involvement.
On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:11 AM, A.R. G amithrgu...@gmail.com wrote:
Well wait a second. Is that something normal, for Israel to do? To provide
medical aid to groups of people that they consider to be affiliated with a
terrorist group? Do they do the same for Hezb/Iranian/Syrian regime
fighters?
It may not exactly be the same as giving them a bunch of bombs, but it
sounds like hospitality to say the least. Considering they could easily
just let them die or arrest them or something, why should they provide any
form of aid at all, including humanitarian aid? Sincere question.
- Amith
On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:
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*
Michael's (correct) point should have been in a reply to Joseph's post
about the Times of Israel story. The head and subhead of that story is
deceptive for leaving out the qualifier medical.
And Joe's subject line repeats that omission. Whether intentional or not I
can't say, but he should have read the whole article first.
Unless he thinks medical treatment is military support, in which case no
medic should ever administer it to the other side in any conflict.
On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Michael Karadjis via Marxism
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:
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*
Israel is not assisting Nusra, and the article doesn't say that it is.
Despite the title, the only assistance to unspecified fighters (and
civilians) referred to in the article is the treating of patients in
Israeli hospitals. Ya'alon says the conditions for providing this
medical
assistance is that they don't attack Israel, the don't attack the Druze,
and they keep Islamic extremists away from the border. For Islamic
extremists read Nusra. There is not a shred of evidence for Israeli
support for Nusra, nor for that matter for the FSA except the hospital
stuff.
'Israel's Dangerous Game with Palestinian Islamists':
Israeli hospital treats Palestinian fighters
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2007/feb/8/20070208-115659-5410r/?page=all
;
16-year-old Gaza terrorist treated in Israeli hospital
http://www.timesofisrael.com/16-year-old-gaza-terrorist-treated-in-israeli-hospital/
;
Israeli hospital treated both sides during Jenin battle:
http://www.israel21c.org/health/israeli-hospital-treated-both-sides-during-jenin-battle/
-Original Message- From: A.R. G via Marxism
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:13 AM
To: Michael Karadjis
Subject: Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian
rebelfighters
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*
Could it be that Israel is helping Nusra because of recent comments that
most of the opposition is being forced by international backers to
accept
the legitimacy of Bashar al-Assad? Perhaps they are more willing to
assist
opposition groups knowing that they will not succeed in overthrowing the
regime, and they would be less willing to do so if the opponent were to
be
overthrown rather than weakened?
- Amith
_
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Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Michael's (correct) point should have been in a reply to Joseph's post about the Times of Israel story. The head and subhead of that story is deceptive for leaving out the qualifier medical. And Joe's subject line repeats that omission. Whether intentional or not I can't say, but he should have read the whole article first. Unless he thinks medical treatment is military support, in which case no medic should ever administer it to the other side in any conflict. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Michael Karadjis via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Israel is not assisting Nusra, and the article doesn't say that it is. Despite the title, the only assistance to unspecified fighters (and civilians) referred to in the article is the treating of patients in Israeli hospitals. Ya'alon says the conditions for providing this medical assistance is that they don't attack Israel, the don't attack the Druze, and they keep Islamic extremists away from the border. For Islamic extremists read Nusra. There is not a shred of evidence for Israeli support for Nusra, nor for that matter for the FSA except the hospital stuff. 'Israel's Dangerous Game with Palestinian Islamists': Israeli hospital treats Palestinian fighters http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2007/feb/8/20070208-115659-5410r/?page=all; 16-year-old Gaza terrorist treated in Israeli hospital http://www.timesofisrael.com/16-year-old-gaza-terrorist-treated-in-israeli-hospital/; Israeli hospital treated both sides during Jenin battle: http://www.israel21c.org/health/israeli-hospital-treated-both-sides-during-jenin-battle/ -Original Message- From: A.R. G via Marxism Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:13 AM To: Michael Karadjis Subject: Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Could it be that Israel is helping Nusra because of recent comments that most of the opposition is being forced by international backers to accept the legitimacy of Bashar al-Assad? Perhaps they are more willing to assist opposition groups knowing that they will not succeed in overthrowing the regime, and they would be less willing to do so if the opponent were to be overthrown rather than weakened? - Amith _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/mkaradjis%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:23 AM, A.R. G via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: Well, certainly if a US citizen were caught giving any such aid to a terrorist, there would be no distinction as far as US law is concerned. Material support is material support. I also wonder what sort of treatment a Palestinian would get if he were simply giving humanitarian aid to a member of Al Nusra. Har! You probably know this story Amith, but if not, check out these Palestinians sentenced by US courts for donating humanitarian aid to Palestinians through respected charities dubiously alleged to have ties with Hamas: https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/nora-barrows-friedman/podcast-case-against-holy-land-five-co-production-government-israel https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/nora-barrows-friedman/podcast-case-against-holy-land-five-co-production-government-israel -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Oh, yes. Other than the HLF5, discussions of material support prosecutions in New York always come back to the famous Brooklyn College sock guy: T[]he government's charges against Hashmi are based on the testimony of a cooperating witness named Junaid Babar, an acquaintance from Queens who stayed in his student apartment in London in 2004 for two weeks. The government claims that while Babar was in Hashmi's apartment, he had luggage containing raincoats, ponchos, and waterproof socks (what the government terms 'military gear') and that later Babar delivered these materials to the third-ranking member of al-Qaida in South Waziristan, Pakistan. http://slate.me/1g2V1Lk I wonder what he makes of Israel flipping military aid from the same government that prosecuted him to help fighters in Syria for the same group? Egad. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Indeed, the ironies of geopolitics. But as I said before, tell me what you think about the grassroots movement activities of recent days described in syriafreedomforever.wordpress.com Otherwise I'm not really interested. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 1:35 PM, Joseph Catron via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Oh, yes. Other than the HLF5, discussions of material support prosecutions in New York always come back to the famous Brooklyn College sock guy: T[]he government's charges against Hashmi are based on the testimony of a cooperating witness named Junaid Babar, an acquaintance from Queens who stayed in his student apartment in London in 2004 for two weeks. The government claims that while Babar was in Hashmi's apartment, he had luggage containing raincoats, ponchos, and waterproof socks (what the government terms 'military gear') and that later Babar delivered these materials to the third-ranking member of al-Qaida in South Waziristan, Pakistan. http://slate.me/1g2V1Lk I wonder what he makes of Israel flipping military aid from the same government that prosecuted him to help fighters in Syria for the same group? Egad. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * [image: When I Am Losing] - Amith On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 8:45 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Then neither can Palestine. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 2:39 PM, Joseph Catron jncat...@gmail.com wrote: They're not gonna win the war, Andy. Sorry. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Andrew Pollack acpolla...@gmail.com wrote: So all those grassroots activists in the photos and videos and articles which I insisted you look at -- they don't exist, right? They don't deserve support? And by your silence about their existence, they implicitly don't deserve to live. Exactly the attitude Israel has toward their Palestinian victims. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Interested in what? At this point I'm happy, and perhaps too eager, to see any kind of political movement as an alternative to active civil war. But it goes without saying that these kinds of activities won't *win* the bloody wa r. In the absence of something resembling a ceasefire, which you opposed the last time I saw you mention it (a while ago), their effects can't possibly amount to much. That's my answer. Now here's my question: what do you think of a political process in lieu of armed conflict? And don't tell me it's too idealistic, because the prospect of anything good emerging from the current impasse certainly isn't realistic. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I don't feel some vicarious need to claim a side in other people's civil wars, especially when none of them seem very good. I know a lot of outside activists in both camps think proving one or two of the major protagonists - those who could conceivably win the thing - are rotten is some kind of impressive trick. It's actually about the least impressive trick in the world. Proving that one of them - a contender, mind you - is *not* rotten would be impressive. As for this habit among some Trotskyists of saying down with all the major protagonists in situations, well, I share the sentiment - who could dispute it? - and I'm taking it and 75 cents out for some coffee. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Andrew Pollack acpolla...@gmail.com wrote: re 1st question: (not) Interested in speculations about outside players without my requirement re 2nd question: enough with the abstractions: political process/movement. Which side are you on? Same with ceasefire. If grassroots groups ask for it to gain time to regroup, fine. As a neutral solution foisted on them by outsiders, including activists, no. Down with Assad, down with Daesh/Nusra, victory to the Syrian people! -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * So all those grassroots activists in the photos and videos and articles which I insisted you look at -- they don't exist, right? They don't deserve support? And by your silence about their existence, they implicitly don't deserve to live. Exactly the attitude Israel has toward their Palestinian victims. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Joseph Catron jncat...@gmail.com wrote: I don't feel some vicarious need to claim a side in other people's civil wars, especially when none of them seem very good. I know a lot of outside activists in both camps think proving one or two of the major protagonists - those who could conceivably win the thing - are rotten is some kind of impressive trick. It's actually about the least impressive trick in the world. Proving that one of them - a contender, mind you - is *not* rotten would be impressive. As for this habit among some Trotskyists of saying down with all the major protagonists in situations, well, I share the sentiment - who could dispute it? - and I'm taking it and 75 cents out for some coffee. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Andrew Pollack acpolla...@gmail.com wrote: re 1st question: (not) Interested in speculations about outside players without my requirement re 2nd question: enough with the abstractions: political process/movement. Which side are you on? Same with ceasefire. If grassroots groups ask for it to gain time to regroup, fine. As a neutral solution foisted on them by outsiders, including activists, no. Down with Assad, down with Daesh/Nusra, victory to the Syrian people! -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Then neither can Palestine. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 2:39 PM, Joseph Catron jncat...@gmail.com wrote: They're not gonna win the war, Andy. Sorry. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Andrew Pollack acpolla...@gmail.com wrote: So all those grassroots activists in the photos and videos and articles which I insisted you look at -- they don't exist, right? They don't deserve support? And by your silence about their existence, they implicitly don't deserve to live. Exactly the attitude Israel has toward their Palestinian victims. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * re 1st question: (not) Interested in speculations about outside players without my requirement re 2nd question: enough with the abstractions: political process/movement. Which side are you on? Same with ceasefire. If grassroots groups ask for it to gain time to regroup, fine. As a neutral solution foisted on them by outsiders, including activists, no. Down with Assad, down with Daesh/Nusra, victory to the Syrian people! On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 2:12 PM, Joseph Catron jncat...@gmail.com wrote: Interested in what? At this point I'm happy, and perhaps too eager, to see any kind of political movement as an alternative to active civil war. But it goes without saying that these kinds of activities won't *win* the bloody war. In the absence of something resembling a ceasefire, which you opposed the last time I saw you mention it (a while ago), their effects can't possibly amount to much. That's my answer. Now here's my question: what do you think of a political process in lieu of armed conflict? And don't tell me it's too idealistic, because the prospect of anything good emerging from the current impasse certainly isn't realistic. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * They're not gonna win the war, Andy. Sorry. On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Andrew Pollack acpolla...@gmail.com wrote: So all those grassroots activists in the photos and videos and articles which I insisted you look at -- they don't exist, right? They don't deserve support? And by your silence about their existence, they implicitly don't deserve to live. Exactly the attitude Israel has toward their Palestinian victims. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * on Montag, 29. Juni 2015 at 17:16, Andrew Pollack via Marxism wrote: Agreed, there's a distinction between wholesale provision of medical aid and treating a wounded soldier who they happen to come upon. Well, it's not that those anti-government fighters wander aimlessly across the Syrian territory, and quite accidentely stumble about the Israeli border. They all do certainly know very well that they can bring a Pickup full of wounded fighters to the Israeli border post for the injured to be taken care of in an Israeli hospital. And are then not turned over to the official government of the neighboring country. I would call that a wholesale provision of medical aid. Cheers, Lüko Willms _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * on Montag, 29. Juni 2015 at 17:23, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: If their aim is to keep the flames stoked, then they could easily do either bombs or medical aid, I don't see why it makes a difference as far as understanding exactly what Israel is trying to do on the ground. and remember, Israel is not only providing medial services to the anti-government fighters, but also intervenes militarily in the Syrian civil war; bombing lleged Hizbullah convoys, and in one instance, killing an Iranian officer. I would say that Israel is really taking sides. Cheers, Lüko Willms _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * IMO it looks like Israel is only taking one side: Israel. They want them to kill each other, every strike was to send a message in line with Israel's deterrence policy. If the Syrian rebels were stronger they would probably be more friendly toward the Hezb/Iran/Syria axis. - Amith On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Lüko Willms marxm...@lws-media.de wrote: on Montag, 29. Juni 2015 at 17:23, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: * If their aim is to keep the flames stoked, then they could easily do either bombs or medical aid, I don't see why it makes a difference as far as understanding exactly what Israel is trying to do on the ground. * and remember, Israel is not only providing medial services to the anti-government fighters, but also intervenes militarily in the Syrian civil war; bombing lleged Hizbullah convoys, and in one instance, killing an Iranian officer. I would say that Israel is really taking sides. Cheers, Lüko Willms _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ToI: Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebelfighters
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 6/29/15 5:11 PM, Lüko Willms via Marxism wrote: I would say that Israel is really taking sides. I have shied away from this thread but at a certain point when the stupidity becomes so palpable I must butt in. Do you think that if Israel really sought to back anti-Assad rebels, it would avoid taking the measures that would make them effective? Even if it was nursing al-Nusra fighters back to health in Israeli hospitals, don't you think that it would be more cost-effective to arm them with MANPAD's that could bring down the Baathist MIG's that are bombing the shit out of them on a daily basis? I know that Joseph Catron is probably too young to have a grasp of Israel's role around the time he was 2 years old but when Israel decides to throw its weight behind a guerrilla group to be perceived to be acting in its own interest, there's no mistaking the difference that makes. A brief search on Google reminds me of the filthy record: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Middle_East/Israel_SAfrica.html: In May 1986, South Africa demonstrated that it had assumed the right to attack its neighbors at a time and on a pretext of its own choosing. The chosen time was during a visit by the Eminent Persons Group of the Commonwealth of Nations, which was attempting to establish negotiations between the apartheid regime and its opposition. The victims-Zambia, Botswana and Zimbabwe, all Commonwealth members-were chosen for their alleged harboring of terrorists; the real victims were South African exiles and an employee of the government of Botswana. The South Africans said they had attacked international terrorism and compared their raids to the Israeli attack on Tunisia and the U.S. attack on Libya in April 1986. The attack was similar in style to Israel's 1985 attack on Tunisia. Initially, the Israelis had been threatening Jordan and perhaps because King Hussein of Jordan was at the time on an official visit to the U.S., the Israelis chose to take revenge for the killing of three Israelis (believed to be top Mossad agents) in Larnaca, Cyprus on the PLO in Tunisia. Two weeks after its three-pronged attack on its Commonwealth neighbors, South Africa attacked the Angolan harbor of Namibia, firing their version of the Israeli Gabriel missile. Israel has also been connected with the mercenary forces deployed by South Africa against Angola and Mozambique. In the 1970s Israel aided the FNLA (Angolan National Liberation Front) proxy forces organized and trained by the CIA to forestall the formation of a government led by the MPLA (Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola-now the ruling party of Angola). John Stockwell, who ran the CIA operation against Angola, recollected three arms shipments Israel made in cooperation with the CIA: a plane full of 120 mm shells sent via Zaire to the FNLA and Unita; a shipment of 50 SA-7 missiles (all of which were duds); a boat-load sent to neighboring Zaire in a deal that the Israelis had worked out with President Mobutu, even though the Zairian strong man had broken ties with Israel two years earlier. When Israel reestablished relations with Zaire (in 1982) and began to train Zairian forces in the Shaba border province, Angola had cause for concern. The leader of the FNLA had been Holden Roberto, brother-in-law of Zairian president Mobutu, Israel's new client. In 1986, it would be established that Zaire acted as a funnel for covert U.S. military aid for the Unita forces of Jonas Savimbi. In 1983, the Angolan News Agency reported that Israeli military experts were training Unita forces in Namibia. Since Zaire began receiving military aid and training from Tel Aviv, Angola has been ill at ease. Its worries increased after discovering that: Israeli Defense Minister Ariel Sharon was personally involved in the organization, training and equipping of commando units of the army of Zaire, especially organized for missions along the borders of the RPA [Angola]. In 1984, the Financial Times (London) wrote of joint Israeli-South African support for Unita forces. Other sources also report the transfer of Israeli arms and financial support to Unita. http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Israel/CAmer_Experience_ILAMC.html With the exception of Nicaragua, which has purchased n1 weapons from Israel since the overthrow of the Somoza government, all the countries of the region are important clients and have signed military agreements with Israel. At the end of 1982, the New York Times quoted U. S. officials as saying that Israel was the largest supplier of infantry equipment to El Salvador and Guatemala, and had a
