Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18
Here are my ideas on bugs: Bugs happen! They're a fact of life, omnipresent in all software. Showstopper bugs should not slip through testing and into release software. Correct: _should_ not. That does not mean _will_ not. Mistakes happen, at least as often as accidents. If testing could be perfected in this manner, then programs themselves could be perfected. Bugs should allways be caught in the testing, but so often they aren't. Minor bugs yes, massive showstoppers no. How can a bug be known to be a show stopper until it has been found? For that matter, I seem to recall that it cannot be proven that a program will _halt_, let alone do something useful, let alone do something useful without any bugs in any circumstances. In the meantime, a subgroup of testers have been created which should (hopefully) ensure that things like this cannot take place again. Yes... a good idea. With a shiny new lock on that barn door, perhaps these horses won't escape a second time and cost GIMPS hundreds of P90-years of time... I still think it would have been a good idea to have had this lock from the outset. But it's water under the bridge... Actually, a somewhat different "lock" has been on this barn door for years (since not long after GIMPS started at the latest), in the form of other programs, implemented independently and able to run on different hardware. I'm not sure about this bug in particular, but earlier bugs (in, at least, Prime95's factoring code and many of the mers package programs) were only discovered by comparing their results with results of those independent programs. The new subgroup of testers is still a good idea, of course, but they will only improve the quality of the releases, not make them bug-free. Anyone expecting otherwise has quite a bit to learn about programming. Will Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Mersenne: Evil Weasels
Oh, evil weasels are present everywhere. Are you sure of that? What if the bug didn't happen to strike my run, or the errors could be corrected? Cannot be corrected. The error is present in the first iteration. And the bug DID strike your run. If what you say is true, then whoever designed version 17 GEORGE WOLTMAN. You should *at least* know the guy's name! He has provided you with absolutely free software, constant updates, and even took care of ALL exponent assigning not too long ago. Augh! acted in a completely unconscionably rash manner by releasing it without thoroughly testing it for problems as serious as that. It WAS thoroughly tested for problems. And for the FIRST TIME in so many versions, a single little crappy bug (it encompassed only a few lines) weaseled its way in. And has therefore shot the whole GIMPS effort in the foot by setting it back many weeks. Oh my God! NOT A FEW WEEKS! NOO! Come on. Think about it. GIMPS' computers are faster than when v17 was released. We have many more of them. The v17 bug will heal over AND THEN SOME in a month (or whatever). It is NOT that serious. You know, I got some 7.6mil exponents a week ago. That's the highest ever. Woltman also released v18 very promptly as well. YOU try programming such a teriffic, well-behaved, crash-resistant program, with no pay, and even insults from weasels like you. Mr. Woltman deserves commendation, not what you're giving him. S.T.L. Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
[Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]
To everyone reading (and answering) this subject: The guy is trolling. We are all going into his troll. (This is proven by the fact that he just *wont* stop.) Trolling is a technique used on the News lists since long time. Sometimes with disastrous result for the list. It's been quite rare on mailing lists, but it's coming more and more. We need to start reacting in the same manner as they have done on most news lists: There is only one way of escaping a list troll. To ignore it. Unfortunately, it requires *everyone* on the list to start ignoring the subject at the same time, which is not always so easy. There is always someone who is still upset about something and the stuff goes on and on and... So, please everyone reading this subject; STOP. Mind you, I do not tell you to ignore all posts from him. Just don't react to anything that upsets you. If you want to react, then write a *private* e-mail directly to him. *Not* on the list. If everyone can follow this, the list will calm down again. Best regards Gustav inux -- The *ultimate* NT Service Pack. Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
[Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]
At 03:53 PM 6/6/99 +0200, you wrote: To everyone reading (and answering) this subject: The guy is trolling. We are all going into his troll. (This is proven by the fact that he just *wont* stop.) I agree, he's trolling. He claimed to be a programmer, but then over and over he claimed that bugs should *always* be caught in testing, prior to release. That proves he's lying, because no programmer can believe that happens in the real world. Shoot, I wouldn't think any computer user, much less programmer, would believe that. I'd been about to cuss him out prior to realizing that he was a troll. Maybe we'll get lucky and his ISP will screw him again... :^) --- Stephen Whitis Visit http://www.whitis.com for information about Delphi, NT4.0 software, Juggling, or darn near anything else I happen to be interested in. Don't spam me, and I won't report your spam. Spam me, and all bets are off. Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Mersenne: EFF and 10,000,000 digits
I just noticed that the EFF is now offering $100,000 prize for the first 10,000,000 digit prime. I assume that this means that they consider the 1,000,000 digit prize essentially considered to have been claimed? ++ | Jud McCranie | ++ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
RE: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]
From: Gustav Schaffter The guy is trolling. We are all going into his troll. (This is proven by the fact that he just *wont* stop.) Amen to that. No one can possibly thing that *everything* works from their point of view and everyone else's view is wrong or unimportant. I would think that anyone with a modicum of tact or sense would now apologise to George for what he said, but that would put an end to the troll, wouldn't it? You're offering good advice Gustav, I'm out of this discussion for good. Rick. - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alienshore.com/ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: [Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]
I second that. At 16:33 06/06/1999 +0100, you wrote: NO MORE. The end.. Chris Jefferson, Girton College, Cambridge, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have a proof that x^n+y^n=z^n never has integer solutions for n2. However, it won't fit into my signature file Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
RE: Mersenne: EFF and 10,000,000 digits
I just noticed that the EFF is now offering $100,000 prize for the first 10,000,000 digit prime. I assume that this means that they consider the 1,000,000 digit prize essentially considered to have been claimed? ++ | Jud McCranie | ++ The EFF had always had prizes for larger primes...I guess nobody really considered any of the others besdies the first megadigit prime, since the other awards probably won't happen for some time to come. I think they ponied up in the neighborhood of $550,000 altogether, including $250,000 for the first giga-digit prime. I suppose that given the extra time it'll take to find those, effects of inflation actually makes all the prize amounts equal :-) As someone else said, in the time it takes to find a giga-digit prime, why not throw a couple hundred bucks into a money market account or some other interest bearing fund...in the time it'd take to find a prime that big, you'd have already received that much in interest. :-) Aaron Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
RE: Mersenne: EFF and 10,000,000 digits
As someone else said, in the time it takes to find a giga-digit prime, why not throw a couple hundred bucks into a money market account or some other interest bearing fund...in the time it'd take to find a prime that big, you'd have already received that much in interest. :-) Yes. I hope I live long enough to see a billion-digit prime. There's a good chance of it. I hope so too (heck, I hope I just live a long life...seeing a giga-digit prime would be a bonus). I suppose it depends on whether Moore's Law can continue to hold true. I'm not so sure that we can keep doubling speeds of processors every 18 months as predicted...it's already taken them quite a while to go from 300MHz machines to 550MHz machines for Wintel processors...and that's just barely in 18 months (close enough to doubling I s'pose). It's getting harder to eke out extra MHz without really dropping the die size alot more than what they're dealing with. But I suppose it won't be long before .15/.12/.10 micron die sizes are ready for mass producing. Aaron Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: Mersenne: Prime95 on linux, a tech question
First of all put the following at the bottom of your /etc/rc.d/rc.local file: /Your/path/to/mprime/mprime To start it from the command line do this: nohup /Your/path/to/mprime/mprime -Chuck On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm trying to run mprime on a (test)webserver (linux/apache) with no console access. Now I can start mprime remotely through telnet - which works fine. But as soon as I quit the particular telnet-session - mprime quits too. Anybody can give me a hint how do keep mprime running? thanks in advance Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm -- ~~~ : WWW: http://www.silverlink.net/poke : : E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : ~~ : Ask Mike! Aviation's response to Dear : : Abby. http://www.avstarair.com: ~~~ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: [[Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]]
Stephen Whitis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He claimed to be a programmer, but then over and over he claimed that bugs should *always* be caught in testing, prior to release. That proves he's lying, because no programmer can believe that happens in the real world. A complete set of test-cases should catch all major (e.g. showstopper) bugs. If a bug of such magnitude makes it into a release product testing cannot have been thorough. And someone admitted that testing for v.17 was in fact not thorough, as the routines that kick in above 2^22 never were tested since the test suite didn't include an exponent above 2^22. Maybe we'll get lucky and his ISP will screw him again... :^) You should grow like a turnip, with your head in the ground and your legs in the air. Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Mersenne: SETI again
I suspected that existence of SETI@Home would somehow benefit
GIMPS in the long run, and now I see how it might happen: SETI@Home
is a dog compared to GIMPS. It doesnt get outta your way when
you want your computer's undivided attention, and now it appears
they have been handing out the same assignment over and over
instead of just sending out a message like:
Sorry, we dont have any work for you right now. Come back in a month.
So, some of the reported half million SETIers will become disillusioned,
because we are the type that do not like to waste computer cycles,
and look around for other projects to work on, perhaps one with
a reputation for honesty, integrity and reliability, such as GIMPS.
If nothing else, SETI@Home introduced the masses to the concept
of distributed computing.
Thanks Scott and George, may your descendants fill the earth. {8^D
spike
Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: Mersenne: Prime95 on linux, a tech question
I wouldn't recommend the " /dev/null" command. If you start it remotely, the stdout and stderr usually (but not always) go to e-mail. This way you can still see the output and not lose any critical messages... -Chuck On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Philip Heede wrote: On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:03:25 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now I can start mprime remotely through telnet - which works fine. But as soon as I quit the particular telnet-session - mprime quits too. Anybody can give me a hint how do keep mprime running? Sure.. I run mprime remotely on a server by using a simple "./mprime /dev/null " command. The " /dev/null" suppresses output and the "" makes MPrime run in the background. If you want output in a file simply replace "/dev/null" with the filename. -- Sincerely, Philip Heede Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm -- ~~~ : WWW: http://www.silverlink.net/poke : : E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : ~~ : Ask Mike! Aviation's response to Dear : : Abby. http://www.avstarair.com: ~~~ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
RE: Mersenne: EFF and 10,000,000 digits
I hope so too (heck, I hope I just live a long life...seeing a giga-digit prime would be a bonus). I suppose it depends on whether Moore's Law can continue to hold true. I'm not so sure that we can keep doubling speeds of processors every 18 months as predicted...it's already taken them quite a while to go from 300MHz machines to 550MHz machines for Wintel processors...and that's just barely in 18 months (close enough to doubling I s'pose). It's getting harder to eke out extra MHz without really dropping the die size alot more than what they're dealing with. But I suppose it won't be long before .15/.12/.10 micron die sizes are ready for mass producing. I have heard some insider news that Intel *could* hit the 1 GigaHertz mark by years end if they had a reason too (if AMD jumped out with a unexpected surprise). Once we start hitting the sweet spot in die size I am under the impression that they will start exploring the multiple processor route... Multiple processor systems are already becoming more mainstream. So I think we will be able to continue with MASSIVE performance increases over our lifetimes. This is assuming we stick with the Von Neumann architecture, new and EXCITING technologies (such as neural computing massively parallel systems) are just over the horizon. These technologies and others offer us unimaginable new possibilities with their own unique strengths weaknesses -- maybe when these new tools are out there we will find a new Algo. that better fits their strengths. My understanding of the purpose of rewards like the EFF is posting is to foster new and innovative ways to solve problems that almost seem impossible at the time. If asked 10 years ago who here would have thought we would be testing numbers as big as we have... George Scott's vision of this very project is such an example of break through technology, which allows us to advance in the scientific frontier at break neck speeds. Whoohoo isn't this a exciting time to live!!! Shane Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
RE: Mersenne: EFF and 10,000,000 digits
I have heard some insider news that Intel *could* hit the 1 GigaHertz mark by years end if they had a reason too (if AMD jumped out with a unexpected surprise). Once we start hitting the sweet spot in die size I am under the impression that they will start exploring the multiple processor route... Multiple processor systems are already becoming more mainstream. So I think we will be able to continue with MASSIVE performance increases over our lifetimes. This is assuming we stick with the Von Neumann architecture, new and EXCITING technologies (such as neural computing massively parallel systems) are just over the horizon. These technologies and others offer us unimaginable new possibilities with their own unique strengths weaknesses -- maybe when these new tools are out there we will find a new Algo. that better fits their strengths. I'm pretty sure Intel already has test chips running at least that fast, probably faster. Speeds like that only become mainstream when it's affordable to mass produce such chips (higher yields) and people are willing to pay more. I think they'd prefer to milk as much out of us as they can by slowly introducing improvements, forcing us to upgrade every so many years. Heck, if they just came out with a super fast ultra chip twice as fast as what's out there now for about the same price, they wouldn't make as much money in the long haul. As for SMP, yes, I think you're right. It is becoming more mainstream. With more Intel-compatible OS' capable of SMP, it's more reasonable to expect someone to buy an SMP capable computer, popping in another cheap when more functionality is desired, rather than shelling out for a new system. Windows 95/98 was one big thing holding this market back, but with Linux and NT on the upper end, and the forthcoming Windows 2000 which will be attractive for current home users, SMP should be a big hit. Abit just announced a dual Celeron motherboard (slot 370), even though Intel won't support SMP with Celerons. At the low prices that Celeron's are going for, it's hard to pass up. Sure, we can't test one number across both processors (though I'd still like to see that someday), you can test 2 in just a bit over the time it'd take to test 1. I also wonder how much Merced will affect coding practices. With it's EPIC architecture, programmers will have to rely on their wits more (the way they should be), hopefully getting tighter code. Of course, George already has his stuff about as efficient as you can get, so I'm thinking more broadly than GIMPS. My understanding of the purpose of rewards like the EFF is posting is to foster new and innovative ways to solve problems that almost seem impossible at the time. If asked 10 years ago who here would have thought we would be testing numbers as big as we have... George Scott's vision of this very project is such an example of break through technology, which allows us to advance in the scientific frontier at break neck speeds. Perhaps vector processing technology like that found in high-end supercomputers will show up more in low end PC's and CPU's. Certainly, supercomputing technology has always tended to filter down, eventually. From what I learned about the discussions with getting an SMP version of NTPrime for instance, it certainly seems that vector processors would do much better in this regard, but would at least be faster than your average super-scalar design anyway. Aaron Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: Mersenne: Prime95 on linux, a tech question
On Sun, 06 Jun 1999, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I wouldn't recommend the " /dev/null" command. If you start it remotely,
the stdout and stderr usually (but not always) go to e-mail. This way you
can still see the output and not lose any critical messages...
I pipe the output to a program that keeps the last 25 lines in a file.
phma
---
[phma@littlecat bin]$ cat runtail
#!/usr/bin/tclsh
# Reads standard input and writes the last n lines to a file.
# Usage: runtail n file
proc outem {} {
global n ;
global file;
global line ;
set f [open $file w];
for {set i 0} {$i $n} {incr i} {puts $f $line($i)};
close $f;
}
proc scroll {str} {
global n;
global line;
for {set i 1} {$i $n} {incr i} {set line([expr $i - 1]) $line($i)};
set line([expr $n - 1]) $str;
}
foreach {n file} $argv {}
for {set i 0} {$i $n} {incr i} {set line($i) ""}
while {1} {
scroll [gets stdin];
outem;
}
Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
RE: Mersenne: EFF and 10,000,000 digits
Hi all, At 02:33 PM 6/6/99 -0500, Amy and Shane Sanford wrote: My understanding of the purpose of rewards like the EFF is posting is to foster new and innovative ways to solve problems that almost seem impossible at the time. Absolutely. Otherwise, why offer a prize for a billion digit prime. Even though the Lucas-Lehmer test is virtually unchanged for the last hundred years. As recently 6 years ago, Crandall and Fagin published the details for doubling the speed of the test. Perhaps there are more theoretical or algorithmic improvements to come. (Anyone on this list working on that right now??) If asked 10 years ago who here would have thought we would be testing numbers as big as we have... George Scott's vision... Don't credit me with any great vision. I have repeatedly made boneheaded statements like "Our goal is to test all exponents below 1.3 million by the year 2000". Scott Kurowski and Luke Welsh have had much better vision. Best regards, George P.S. On the trolling issue: Don't worry about me - I have a thick skin. There is no reason to jump in to defend me. If you feel you must, please try to handle it by private email in the future. It has been a pleasure working with all the GIMPS participants. GIMPS memebers are a very pleasant and intelligent group to work with. P.P.S. And for Pete's sake, do NOT reply to this P.S. or P.P.S!! Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
RE: Mersenne: EFF and 10,000,000 digits
I'm pretty sure Intel already has test chips running at least that fast, probably faster. Speeds like that only become mainstream when it's affordable to mass produce such chips (higher yields) and people are willing to pay more. I think they'd prefer to milk as much out of us as they can by slowly introducing improvements, forcing us to upgrade every so many years. Heck, if they just came out with a super fast ultra chip twice as fast as what's out there now for about the same price, they wouldn't make as much money in the long haul. And let me add that slowing the pace of mainstream release, to a certain degree, is actually a good thing. Think of it this way. No one can predict innovation. If Intel doesn't have the resources to support its innovation, then we don't get any more innovation. If Intel slows things down to a consistent pace and gets its money's worth out of it's past innovations (Heck, there's even a market still for 386 processors, they make darn good small office routers), then they can afford to support more research... It's a never ending cycle that's supported by the consumer, who is also its secondary beneficiary (The first being the stock-holders). Don't get me wrong, it's all about money and capitalism, we just see the benefit of it because our desire for more speed drives the capitalists... -- ~~~ : WWW: http://www.silverlink.net/poke : : E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : ~~ : Ask Mike! Aviation's response to Dear : : Abby. http://www.avstarair.com: ~~~ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
