Re: [meteorite-list] Langs Auction - Official Statement
Hello Iris, Thanks for the update. I like to think that most listmembers know better then to pay attention to the rantings of Greg Hupe or Mike Farmer. Best, Charlie __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Eyewitness Account of the Holbrook Fall
Some of us had the great fortune to know Pauline McCleve personally. She was a neighbor of mine from 1988 until her death. She passed away just a few years ago at the ripe old age of 106. Even in here later years, she never got tired of telling the Holbrook meteorite story. I can remember sitting with her on several occasions listening to her give her eyewitness account of the fall. One funny thing was that she always insisted that it was a comet and not a meteorite. Best, John Gwilliam At 11:26 PM 2/12/2007, Sterling K. Webb wrote: Hi, Nice eyewitness account of the Holbrook fall. Sterling K. Webb TEMPE RESIDENT REMEMBERS METEOR'S PLUNGE 86 YEARS AGO 30 May 1998 MESA, Ariz. (AP) _ Pauline McCleve of Tempe doesn't need to go to the movies to see scary scenes of meteors streaking toward frightened people. She can just rerun one of the memories in her head. Now 103, McCleve remembers the explosion in the sky when a rock from outer space fell near Holbrook in northern Arizona on July 19, 1912. ``That was the loudest sound I ever heard in my life,'' she recalled recently. ``There was no sound from us except a gasp of terror.'' She was 17, standing outside her family home in Holbrook with her parents and some of her 10 brothers and sisters. The meteor dominated the early evening sky. ``It was coming right toward us. We thought we were going to die. ``The closer it came, the more frightened we were. We just stood there paralyzed.'' The boom was heard as far away as 100 miles north and south of the city, according to newspaper accounts from that week. ``People ran into the streets and stared at the sky,'' the Holbrook News reported. Witnesses in Winslow, 30 miles farther west, saw a smoky trail streaking eastward toward Holbrook. McCleve remembered it as a glowing fireball with a bright tail. The boom came from a chunk of asteroid shattering into thousands of pieces. It probably was about the size of an office desk when it first entered the atmosphere, according to Carleton Moore, director of the Arizona State University Center of Meteorite Studies. ``Holbrook is still the only observed fall in Arizona,'' Moore said. ``All the other meteorites in Arizona have just been found sitting on the ground.'' Observed falls, in which a meteorite is seen in the air and then recovered on the ground, occur only about once every two or three years anywhere in the world. Several pieces of the dense black stone now sit in one of the center's public display cases on campus, including the biggest chunk that hit the ground, weighing 14 pounds, and tiny bits the size of peas. McCleve remembered, ``It exploded like shrapnel.'' The pieces landed in a 3-mile-long ellipse centered about six miles east of Holbrook. One baseball-sized chunk knocked the limb off a tree. ``Papa said, `Oh, it missed us, but that landed very close. I'll go out in the morning and look for it.''' Other folks had the same idea, and many of them went out to collect pieces of the dense black stones. More than 14,000 pieces were collected that summer, mostly from the surface of the ground, but some of the largest were embedded up to 6 inches deep. Many were purchased by a Philadelphia collector, Warren Foote, who wrote the first scientific paper about the Holbrook meteorite four months later. McCleve's father, Richard Decatur Greer, and her younger brother, Pratt Greer, earned nearly $2,000 gathering and selling pieces of the Holbrook meteorite, she said. The man she married the following year, James Cyrus McCleve, made $400. ``It was hard times, and everybody was glad to get what they could,'' she said. In 1912, $2,000 was enough to buy a modest home. About 2,000 additional pieces of the Holbrook meteorite have been found since 1912, some as recently as 1991. Moore gave a talk about meteorites to the Kiwanis Club at the Friendship Village retirement center in Tempe last month. Afterward, he received a note that McCleve, a resident of the center, would like to talk with him. Some of the pieces of the Holbrook meteorite at ASU were part of Foote's collection, so some may have originally been picked up by McCleve's father, Moore said. McCleve has remembered the meteor many times in the past 86 years. ``That was the most terrifying time in all my years,'' she said, ``Those few seconds of the meteor coming toward us.'' http://www.swanet.org/ telnet://aztec2.asu.edu Southwestern Archaeology (SWA) - History, Archaeology, and Anthropology of the American Southwest! __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Re: [meteorite-list] Langs Auction - Official Statement
Hello Charlie and List, I respect your opinion, but I disagree with your term rantings. If you knew what I know of this situation and other non-related dealings, and of the proof Achim Karl produced among other's, than you and the other List members would truly understand the long-term pattern of problems. A simple public statement saying they will make up for their mistakes (or otherwise) does not admit guilt or prove innocence. They need to settle ALL past mistakes and grievances against them. Time in years does not constitute honesty and integrity but it does produce reputation!! Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 - Original Message - From: Charlie Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 7:20 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Langs Auction - Official Statement Hello Iris, Thanks for the update. I like to think that most listmembers know better then to pay attention to the rantings of Greg Hupe or Mike Farmer. Best, Charlie __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Possible Phobos sampling mission
http://www.focusmag.co.uk/newsread.asp?ID=27060 PROBE PLANNED FOR PHOBOS 09:20:34 13/02/2007 'Practice run for Mars sampling mission announced A British team is working on a concept mission to land a spacecraft on Marss small moon, Phobos, take samples from its surface and bring them back to Earth. Scientists from the Open University and British satellite manufacturer Astrium are involved. The plan is for a mothership to orbit Mars before it releases a smaller probe onto the surface of Phobos, where it will drill or scoop and sample surface material. Then it will use chemical thrusters to lift off from the surface of the moon and dock onto the mothership, where it will be automatically packaged into a protective sealed container and flown near to Earth. It will be jettisoned from the mothership to Earth in a hard landing. The mission will last three years and is planned for 2016. Although technologically complex in its own right, the probes visit to the moon is being treated as a practice run for a joint UK/US mission planned for within the next 15-20 years, to sample rocks from Mars itself. The main difficulty is getting the sampler on and off the planet. The team hopes hoping to hone necessary skills on the smaller Phobos before tackling the bigger, higher-gravity Mars. Its hoped the moon samples will themselves contain fragments of Martian soil that will have been flung up over the billions of years that meteorites have been striking Mars. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Story from a stone
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/stories/20070223001109000.htm PIPLIA KALAN is a small, nondescript village in Pali district in western Rajasthan. People outside the district would not even have heard its name. Yet, it is a name familiar to planetary scientists and astronomers, and a casual search on Google for `Piplia Kalan' will fetch you many entries. It does not owe its fame to any natural calamity or scandal but to a piece of a meteorite. A shooting star fell on an uncultivated farm on the outskirts of Piplia Kalan on June 20, 1996, around 8-30 in the evening. Most villagers were probably enjoying the summer evening outside their homes, and the meteor that streaked brightly across the sky did not escape their notice. The `Piplia Kalan' meteorite was rather small by the standards of famous meteorites. I t did not even weigh 50 kg - so it was far from being dangerous like the one that is believed to have brought about the extinction of the dinosaurs, or even the one that in 1908 exploded over Siberia and destroyed a forest there. The Piplia Kalan meteorite was tiny in comparison. Yet, the surviving fragment of this meteorite contained an extraordinary piece of information, which has changed the way scientists think about the birth of the solar system. A group of Indian scientists has taken a leading role in the analysis of this meteorite, and some other meteorites around the world, and in shaping this new look at the origin of the solar system. Traditionally, it is believed that the solar system formed roughly 4.6 billion years ago out of a gaseous cloud in space. Such clouds are abundant in our galaxy; they hover in the space between stars and are often seen either by the light falling on them from nearby stars or as silhouettes against a bright starry background. Material inside a nebula can, however, begin to contract and decrease in size at some point of time - either collapsing on its own or being influenced by some extraordinary event in its neighbourhood, such as being hit by shocks from stellar explosions. As it contracts, it forms a star (or a number of stars) in its dense core. Then the leftover material surrounding the central star cools slowly and forms small grains of solid particles, which gradually coalesce to form large objects such as planets, asteroids and comets. It is a straightforward calculation to work out how much time a typical interstellar cloud takes to contract and form a star. Astrophysicists such as Frank Shu of the University of California, Berkeley, United States, have estimated that in the case of a sunlike star this process takes around 10 million years. Then, the residual cloud surrounding the nascent star would need another 100 million years or so to produce planetesimals and planets. Forming large planets would take an even longer time. One can then ask whether the solar system too followed this timetable or whether it formed in a quicker or in a more lethargic fashion than prescribed in this scenario. And is there some way one can test this hypothesis? Is there a way of knowing what the script the solar system followed during its birth? It turns out there is. The secret lies in finding radioactive elements in the material that formed soon after the birth of the solar system. Radioactive materials have atoms that are markedly different from their normal, run-of-the-mill counterparts. Consider, for instance, an atom of radioactive aluminium. It has 13 neutrons in its nucleus, as opposed to the 14 neutrons an ordinary aluminium atom has (both varieties contain 13 protons). This makes radioactive aluminium change its identity after a certain amount of time. For instance, if one took a certain amount of radioactive aluminium, half of it would have changed into a bizarre form of magnesium after three-quarters of a million years. This particular type of magnesium is slightly heavier than the normal variety and is easily identifiable as the odd one out. There are many such radioactive elements, but there is something special about radioactive aluminium. Aluminium happens to be an element that requires very high temperatures to turn into its gaseous phase - in the jargon of science, it is called a `refractory' element. If it needs very high temperatures to turn gaseous, then it follows that if a hot mixture of gaseous substances is allowed to cool aluminium (and other refractory elements) would also be among the first to turn back into the solid phase. As an analogy, consider high-rise buildings in a flooded city. As the flood water rises, the tallest buildings are the last ones to drown - they are like the refractory elements in a gas that is being heated. By the same token, when the flood water subsides, the tallest buildings are also the first ones out of the water - in our case, refractory elements such as aluminium becoming cool and solid again. In other words, one would expect aluminium and other refractory elements to form the first solid particles as
Re: [meteorite-list] Some thoughts on Larry Atkin's Recent Holbrook Find
Hello from the field, after being blasted out of Holbrook yesterday morning. I can say that two days ago in the Holbrook strewn field, I was camping in the middle of it, which is basically an erroded shrub, dry lake mud flat. It was drizzling all day long, making a wicked cold burn, but other than that and all the mud cakes on my sneakers, it was a fine day for hunting. I was caught rather far away from my truck after spiraling around my well-worked strewn field base and a nice juicy rainstorm came rolling down the plains. I kept hunting until thoroughly soaked, cold and then remembering that I was parked in a mud flat. It was pretty comical to run all the way back jumping from errosion cone to errosion cone in this alluvial mess where it looks like mostly dried sagebrush type vegetation, and the mud on the sneakers became ruddy sliding disks the sizes of tennis rackets inviting a slip landing on the rump. The camp and vehicle was in the middle of a lake now, but luck was with me I got some new tires. I did make it out, and now am reflecting on the comments in this message by John - which are all very reasonable. One pleasant side effect was plenty of time to hurridly contemplate a run clear across the strewn field during the rain. First the water puddled in the low spots, but as in any dry lake type plain, it then started flowing. Holbrook is like a sandy beach with dunes and weak root systems in scattered bush holding together for its life. This flowing when wet in the silt and clay continually shifts the sands and the clays, which one can see evidence of cracking. The cracks themselves in drying areas can be a couple of cm's thick easily where all kinds of grapeshot meteorites and a myriad of stones can fall and get recycled to the surface. Even a big rock can easily get silt covered, and depending where it is, hide until its predestined lucky finder walks up to it. As to the big hole, I stumbled across it a day earlier. I had parked about 125 meters from it without having the slightest idea of its whereabouts, nor actually caring too much since I was out to make history, not record it. Also in the vicinity were a duo of cool hunters - Ruben (who looked like a bad ninja on a quadrimoto) and Earl (who looked like Ghost Rider). I found three tiny specks of fragments left in what I thought to be and the fellow hunters confrmed to be that unique Holbrook space rock rich uric color, so unless someone is playing a joke, I can personally confirm that the big hole had meteorite residue in it. It was on the corner of an errosion cone, near an active arroyo and where lots of water flowed during rains - so it is easy to imagine what happened in this case. As John mentioned and I also did above...it was a lot like the dunes at the high tide line of a Florida or Venetian beach Larry Luck hit the jackpot, but after spending some time there and getting all muddy again, it was time to move on. There is more to be found, but Holbrook for me was not as beautiful as other strewn fields, suffering a bit from the taming of the west as a strewn field of garbage in places. I did see the main mass of all the little Holbrooks on several ocassions. It was a very old and big desert hare. I found a fresh dime and a nickel which excited meteorite hunters no doubt had lost, plus a very old marble that maybe Nininger lost early on. And there was a coyote's tail and the tailfeather of a blue bird, most probably a common jay. Best wishes, Doug -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 3:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Some thoughts on Larry Atkin's Recent Holbrook Find Bernd, Larry, Maria and List, Here's some more food for thought concerning the Holbrook strewnfield. One of my best friends, Dave Andrews, lives in Holbrook and has hunted the strewnfield hundreds of times. He was Larry and Maria when Larry made his find of a lifetime. Dave and I talked on the phone while the three of them were still out in the field, and Dave told me it was found in an area that many of us had been over dozens of times. How could that be? Over the years, Dave has noted that wind and water erosion probably come into play. After a good wind or rain storm, artifacts ( indian pottery shards) and meteorites become exposed. They seem to appear in places where they weren't just days before. In actuality, they were there all along but were hidden below a thin layer of sand. Anyone who has ever hunter there has noticed that there are small hillocks of sand mounded up around the bases of some of the indigenous shrubs. My guess is that once these shrubs die and are blown away by the winds (which can last for days and reach speeds of 50 MPH and more) the sand moves on without the shrubs there to hold it in place. Several years ago, Dave, John Blennert and I were hunting
Re: [meteorite-list] Langs Auction - Official Statement
Charlie, how dare you! Rantings? Let's recap the events of last week: I put out an email, stating that some of Al Lang's pieces were stolen (As reported to myself and Achim and everyone else in the room by Al and Iris). Within minutes I got both private and public emails from other absentee buyers in the USA and Switzerland with proof that Iris Lang sold them the stolen pieces for more than double the prices which Achim was declared the official winner for. The emails were dated BEFORE Achim was told the items were stolen. Then I was inundated with requests for the auction prices and winners. I posted the prices publicly and asked to be left out of the controversy. You call this Ranting? Please explain. Perhaps you should rephrase your Ranting term to what you really mean, MEDDLING. That is what you mean right? I read Iris Lang's email a little while ago. Very nice, except that it fails to answer any of the complaints against them. Why was Achim told his pieces were stolen AFTER Iris has sold them to other people for MORE THAN DOUBLE his winning prices? So she emailed Peter Marmet and someone else who does not want to be named with their winning bids of many times more money than Achim has just won them for. Everyone in the room wrote down the winning bids. Why do we now have Al and Iris's winning bid #s so different than everyone in the room's numbers? If the money is going to set up a museum, why did I make my check out to Al Lang, not a foundation or museum? Why were bidders charged far more than the bidding increments? Why did winners win items for $5100.00 and before they made it to the desk to pay, were then told that they did not win, but could match an absentee bid for hundreds of $$$ more even though they had just been declared the winner for less money? Even by matching and absentee bidders bid, then they would be screwing the absentee bidder out of a specimen because the buyer did not outbid them, just match them. Give me a break, the answers to the serious questions and price discrepancies are what everyone is looking for, none of these questions were answered or even mentioned in Iris's email. Charlie, were you in the auction room? Did you write down the winning bids? Can you explain why nearly every absentee bidder got totally SCREWED? Either not having their bids counted, or being overcharged on the winning increments? Now, everyone makes mistakes, it is to be expected in such an auction, but the fact that Iris sold Achims pieces, then told him the next day that they were stolen and caused a huge scene with him, then out comes the truth, they were not lost or stolen as Iris tolf him, they were just sold for more money. Now that is nothing more than decepetion and lies, not a simple error. Before you say that I am ranting again, perhaps you could answer any of those serious questions which were made public by a great many people last week. You seem to be quite willing to discard all of those questions, throw them in the trash, and accept an email that admits nothing but a couple of mistakes. Dude, you are welcome to buy an oceanfront Arizona condo from me Any day, I will compose a nice little email saying I made a couple of mistakes after I get my hands on your money. Michael Farmer --- Charlie Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Iris, Thanks for the update. I like to think that most listmembers know better then to pay attention to the rantings of Greg Hupe or Mike Farmer. Best, Charlie __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Near-Earth Asteroids Could Be Stepping Stones To Mars
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2007-02-12-asteroid_x.htm Near-Earth asteroids could be 'steppingstones to Mars' By Dan Vergano USA TODAY February 13, 2007 Asteroids are big hunks of space dust and rock that will eventually smack into Earth and end life as we know it. Or they represent the new frontier of space exploration. Or both. It depends on how you look at it. Experts have been wary of asteroids since they came to the conclusion that one of them ended the Age of the Dinosaurs 65 million years ago. Scientists such as Stephen Hawking warn that their relatively close proximity presents grave dangers to humankind, a point of view supported in a number of recent books, such as William Burrows' The Survival Imperative: Using Space to Save Earth and British astronomer royal Martin Rees' Our Final Hour: A Scientist's Warning. But others consider asteroids the next landscape for scientific discovery. We're looking at the possibilities, says Kelly Humphries, a spokesman for NASA's Johnson Space Center. With NASA planning a moon-exploring spacecraft, Humphries says, Anything robust enough to go to the moon is going to be robust enough for lots of missions. In December, NASA astronaut Edward Lu told Space.com that plans under study include landing on an asteroid and retrieving rock samples for return to Earth before 2020. And at NASA's Ames Research Center, lab chief Simon Pete Worden, a longtime advocate of such exploration, has set aside $10 million for designing small spacecraft that could visit asteroids, according to the Jan. 19 Science magazine. The space agency does have a few asteroid missions already planned. In its just-released 2008 budget, NASA said it is studying a mission, dubbed the Origins Spectral Interpretation, Resource Identification and Security (OSIRIS) probe, to return rock samples from an asteroid. In June, NASA will launch the Dawn mission to orbit the two largest asteroids, Ceres and Vesta, in the main asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. And outside NASA, others also see asteroids' scientific potential. They are pristine in a way, vagabonds of the solar system, leftovers from the era of the formation of the planets, says American Museum of Natural History astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson, host of PBS' NOVA scienceNOW, and author of the new book Death by Black Hole and Other Cosmic Quandaries. And as for landings, they are low-hanging fruit, or low-hanging rocks, in this case, for space exploration. Too close for comfort? The International Astronomical Union has given identifying numbers to nearly 150,000 asteroids; about 5,000 are discovered every month. A mix of sand piles, dust balls, metal-rich rocks and burned-out comets, they mostly congregate in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. Closer to home, NASA has, as of November, tracked 855 potentially dangerous Near-Earth asteroids. These pass within about 30 million miles of Earth, with a diameter of approximately 1 kilometer (.62 miles) or larger. Astronomers regard that size as the point at which impact with Earth would threaten civilization, says Richard Binzel of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. NASA operates a program, the Spaceguard Survey, to track this cosmic shooting gallery, in the words of NASA scientist David Morrison, aiming to identify 90% of the estimated 1,100 civilization-buster Near-Earth asteroids lurking overhead before 2009. Congress has further told NASA to catalogue 90% of all Near-Earth asteroids less than 460 feet wide by 2020, and figure out ways to deflect any headed for Earth. Tyson says such asteroids offer an intriguing array of midway points between the four-day trip to the moon and the six-month voyage to Mars. As steppingstones to Mars, (asteroids) are a really good way to learn to leave the comfort of the Earth-Moon system, says Binzel. There are literally hundreds of Near-Earth asteroids that are probably easier to reach than the moon, in terms of the propellant you need to go there and back. That's because asteroids have hardly any gravity. So fuel costs for blasting out of each one's gravity well are minimal. Eros, a hefty near-Earth asteroid, some 20 miles long by 8 miles across, has such light gravity that a person could toss a baseball off its surface and into orbit. In comparison, a rocket needs a 5,370 mph escape velocity to leave the moon. And NASA's plans include building a rocket capable of sending astronauts to the moon, called Ares 1, which is scheduled to be ready for flight testing in 2014. The rocket designers aim to overcome the Earth's 39,600 mph escape velocity and deliver a 25-ton astronaut capsule to the moon, complete with the fuel needed to return. That capability should put a variety of asteroids within reach. For something a bit sooner, Morrison will describe a Near-Earth Asteroid Trailblazing (NEAT) probe, low-cost landers designed to flit among nearby asteroids, scouting their surfaces, at a March American Institute of
Re: [meteorite-list] Langs Auction - Official Statement
Perhaps if the the proceeds really are going to a non-profit entity,a not for profit unified business number could be provided to purchasers for tax purposes. Adam --- Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Charlie, how dare you! Rantings? Let's recap the events of last week: I put out an email, stating that some of Al Lang's pieces were stolen (As reported to myself and Achim and everyone else in the room by Al and Iris). Within minutes I got both private and public emails from other absentee buyers in the USA and Switzerland with proof that Iris Lang sold them the stolen pieces for more than double the prices which Achim was declared the official winner for. The emails were dated BEFORE Achim was told the items were stolen. Then I was inundated with requests for the auction prices and winners. I posted the prices publicly and asked to be left out of the controversy. You call this Ranting? Please explain. Perhaps you should rephrase your Ranting term to what you really mean, MEDDLING. That is what you mean right? I read Iris Lang's email a little while ago. Very nice, except that it fails to answer any of the complaints against them. Why was Achim told his pieces were stolen AFTER Iris has sold them to other people for MORE THAN DOUBLE his winning prices? So she emailed Peter Marmet and someone else who does not want to be named with their winning bids of many times more money than Achim has just won them for. Everyone in the room wrote down the winning bids. Why do we now have Al and Iris's winning bid #s so different than everyone in the room's numbers? If the money is going to set up a museum, why did I make my check out to Al Lang, not a foundation or museum? Why were bidders charged far more than the bidding increments? Why did winners win items for $5100.00 and before they made it to the desk to pay, were then told that they did not win, but could match an absentee bid for hundreds of $$$ more even though they had just been declared the winner for less money? Even by matching and absentee bidders bid, then they would be screwing the absentee bidder out of a specimen because the buyer did not outbid them, just match them. Give me a break, the answers to the serious questions and price discrepancies are what everyone is looking for, none of these questions were answered or even mentioned in Iris's email. Charlie, were you in the auction room? Did you write down the winning bids? Can you explain why nearly every absentee bidder got totally SCREWED? Either not having their bids counted, or being overcharged on the winning increments? Now, everyone makes mistakes, it is to be expected in such an auction, but the fact that Iris sold Achims pieces, then told him the next day that they were stolen and caused a huge scene with him, then out comes the truth, they were not lost or stolen as Iris tolf him, they were just sold for more money. Now that is nothing more than decepetion and lies, not a simple error. Before you say that I am ranting again, perhaps you could answer any of those serious questions which were made public by a great many people last week. You seem to be quite willing to discard all of those questions, throw them in the trash, and accept an email that admits nothing but a couple of mistakes. Dude, you are welcome to buy an oceanfront Arizona condo from me Any day, I will compose a nice little email saying I made a couple of mistakes after I get my hands on your money. Michael Farmer --- Charlie Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Iris, Thanks for the update. I like to think that most listmembers know better then to pay attention to the rantings of Greg Hupe or Mike Farmer. Best, Charlie __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lang's auction statement
Dear List Members, as everyone of you know Lang's auction was held on Saturday the 3rd of Febuaryand I participated in person at the auction to make sure to get the specimens Iwanted. I did win 6 lots and after the closing of the auction I walked up to Mr. Langand told him to hang on to the pieces until either Monday or Tuesday. He wasvery happy not to deal with the items at this moment, because a number ofparticipants wanted their specimens right away and they were pretty busy atthat time. On Tuesday the 6th I returned to Mr. Lang's room to pay and pick up themeteorites. By asking for my 6 meteorites I got told that 3 were missing andthat they believe they were stolen, but 'they would let me have the historicalmeteorite - which I of course had won - although it had not met reserve'. Therewas no wording at the auction that my bid hasn't met reserve and the auctioneersold it to me. It surprises me a little bit that this was a 'thank youspecimen' for the stolen lots. My next step was to inform the list about the stolen pieces. To my surprise ittook only 5 minutes after my announcement and an absentee bidder wrote to methat he had won one of my lots for $ 300 which I had gotten for $ 160. Furthermorehe had already received an invoice from Mrs. Lang and he had immediately paidfor the specimen. Another 2 hours later due to the time zones Mr Marmet fromSwitzerland contacted and told me that he had won the other twos for a higherbid than the auctioneer had sold it to me. He also had already received aninvoice from Mrs. Lang and had sent the money the same moment. I'm really wondering why I got told these things were stolen when they show upat absentee bidder's invoices for a far higher price than the hammer pricesduring the auction. Achim Karl __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Langs Auction - Official Statement
Hello Charlie and List, Charlie wrote, Greg, I am aware that you and your brother had a falling out with Al a few years ago, for which reason, when you first opined on the Lang's Tucson auction, I chose not to regard your opinion as objective. Charlie, again I respect your opinion about your own personal dealings with Allan and Iris Lang, but feel that unless you have been dealt a shady hand by this pair like we and many others have, than you can only offer your own personal experience, which sounds like you are lucky (in my opinion). As far as the falling out with our dealings with the Lang's, that is an ongoing and as-of-yet unresolved issue that we have tried over the last nearly four years to settle peacefully and fairly. We used two of their very close friends as mediators (one of them twice!), only to be jerked around or ignored. Is that a way to display such honesty and integrity that the Lang's have according to your opinion? This is something that will not go away just because they choose to put on a blank face and ignore all requests to come to a fair settlement agreement! I will not discuss details here as it is not anyone else's business. My remarks, or rantings as you put it, are objective with my personal experience with them and I can only offer this as a way of helping others not fall into the same trap. Best regards, Greg - Original Message - From: Charlie Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Greg Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Langs Auction - Official Statement Greg, I am aware that you and your brother had a falling out with Al a few years ago, for which reason, when you first opined on the Langs Tucson auction, I chose not to regard your opinion as objective. I have known Al since the early 80's, and freely admit my own opinion is that honesty, integrety and good reputation are part of the package where Al is concerned. Best wishes, Charlie __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] eBay Hassles
Recently I ran some meteorite auctions on eBay. A winning bidder ignored invoices for 3 days past the payment deadline so I resold the item. Now this person keeps paying me, sometimes three times a day, despite my telling him over and over that he breached the contract and that the item is resold. I keep having to refund his $$$ every day. Anyone else ever have a problem like this? eBay says to talk to paypal. Paypal keeps saying to talk to eBay. Advice/experiences like this would be appreciated. Gary __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] www.venusmeteorite.com - what are your opinions on this claim
--- Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
[I have a theory, of course, but not room enough
in this margin to write it down.]
I believe Fermat wrote something the same thing and it
took nearly 300 years to prove it. Sterling, make a
mental note to ACTUALLY write the theory down to save
some poor sucker from having to write a 200page thesis
in the future.
Would not Martian ablation on the way out from Mars
simply be destroyed by terrestrial ablation on the way
in to us? You know how much of the meteorites are
removed by the process. I find it difficult to believe
any could survive.
I often thought that rock could escape it's host
planet through the rarefaction zone above the
impactors trajectory. However, how this tallies with
low shock levels I don't know.
As I understand, the low shock would need to be right
at the very edge of the impact site. Not ideal for
launching up into a rarefaction zone. ...
Unless, {and here's a wild guess that's probably WAAAY
off but I'll accept criticism with dignity, only a
little sobbing and wailing}...
Could a low angle impact [1-3degrees] produce
sufficient rarefaction befind it to allow the low
shocked rock at the trailing edge of the impact site
to be 'grazed off' in a backward direction, back up
the initial path of the impactor?
Rob McC
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[meteorite-list] Some thoughts on Larry Atkin's Recent Holbrook Find
Thanks to John Gwilliam for posting his observations from previous years experiences at Holbrook. Similiar observations have been repeatably made at other strewn fields in the SW USA. Those who have had the benefit of being able to return to strewn fields year after year (or even at different seaons of the year), have been able to observe the long-term changes, as well as, the seasonal fluctuations. Those that have made subsequent finds on previously searched surfaces have seen the evidence of gradual deflation, or in the case of seasonal changes, have witnessed surfaces that alternate between being buried and then being exposed again. Those people know full well how presumptive the phrase the field is now pretty well cleaned up can be. So Ruben, don't be so hard on yourself. Larry Atkin's recent find may not even have been exposed on the surface at the time you were searching. But regarding the 21 fragments that were found just last weekend by that dynamic father and son duo of Erik and Ben Fisler, now there you can make a case that these were missed by all of the hunters from the previous weekend. But then again, we just had a field report by Mexico Doug about all the rain he recently encountered at Holbrook. Again, timing is everything. So, unless it can be proven that these have always been exposed on the surface, it would still be very presumptive to say that those 21 pieces, or even Larry Atkin's find, were missed by ALL the previous hunters of the Holbrook strewnfield. Congratulations to all of the finders of the recently found Holbrook meteorites. Your timing is impeccable. :-) Bob V. - Original Message - [meteorite-list] Some thoughts on Larry Atkin's Recent Holbrook Find JKGwilliam h3chondrite at cox.net Mon Feb 12 17:03:22 EST 2007 * Previous message: [meteorite-list] Some thoughts on Larry Atkin's Recent Holbrook Find * Next message: [meteorite-list] Some thoughts on Larry Atkin's Recent Holbrook Find Bernd, Larry, Maria and List, Here's some more food for thought concerning the Holbrook strewnfield. One of my best friends, Dave Andrews, lives in Holbrook and has hunted the strewnfield hundreds of times. He was Larry and Maria when Larry made his find of a lifetime. Dave and I talked on the phone while the three of them were still out in the field, and Dave told me it was found in an area that many of us had been over dozens of times. How could that be? Over the years, Dave has noted that wind and water erosion probably come into play. After a good wind or rain storm, artifacts ( indian pottery shards) and meteorites become exposed. They seem to appear in places where they weren't just days before. In actuality, they were there all along but were hidden below a thin layer of sand. Anyone who has ever hunted there has noticed that there are small hillocks of sand mounded up around the bases of some of the indigenous shrubs. My guess is that once these shrubs die and are blown away by the winds (which can last for days and reach speeds of 50 MPH and more) the sand moves on without the shrubs there to hold it in place. Several years ago, Dave, John Blennert and I were hunting in Holbrook. While walking along with Dave, he bent over and picked up a small complete stone of about 2 grams. It was perched atop a small column of soil very much like a golf ball sitting on a tee. The soil (mostly sand) around it had blown away leaving the small stone nearly half an inch above the surrounding soil. Best, John Gwilliam -- At 01:09 PM 2/12/2007, bernd.pauli at paulinet.de wrote: Hello Larry, Maria, and List, First of all, of course, sincere congratulations! They came to the Southwest and did an amazing job, finding meteorites at Holbrook, Franconia and Gold Basin. .. which should remind us all of Bob Haag's famous words: The key is to get out there and look for them. Usually some pieces were missed in the initial search. But: I had been within 50 feet of Larry's find many, many times and driven by it many more. .. which shows how difficult it can be, even for experienced meteorite hunters like Ruben Garcia. .. which should not discourage anyone willing to search the strewnfield again and again, even though Foote (no, not Gary ;-) remarked in his preliminary note on the Holbrook shower in 1912: the field is now pretty well cleaned up. Hmm! If he had known what he didn't know then, ... he was wrong! + - End of Original Messages -- __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] eBay Hassles
[meteorite-list] eBay Hassles Gary K. Foote Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:10:48 -0800 wrote: Recently I ran some meteorite auctions on eBay. A winning bidder ignored invoices for 3 days past the payment deadline so I resold the item. Now this person keeps paying me, sometimes three times a day, despite my telling him over and over that he breached the contract and that the item is resold. I keep having to refund his $$$ every day. Anyone else ever have a problem like this? eBay says to talk to paypal. Paypal keeps saying to talk to eBay. Advice/experiences like this would be appreciated. The relationship between PayPal and eBay really bothers me. (I hate eBay you all know. Other than a couple of petrographic slides-- No meteorites from me sold there). eBay tells Gary to go to PayPal to settle the complaint, and PayPal says go to eBay. It is like the right hand does not know what the left is doing or vica versa. Now in light of that consider this: Does it not strike any as odd that you get a substantial eBay fee when you sell, and then you get another fee when the funds from eBay go into PayPal? Well, PayPal is owned by eBay. If so, this practice does not seem right. (Maybe the FTC should look into it.) Non auction items, not related to eBay, yes. eBay auction items sold and funds sent to PayPal (an eBay company)... NO! eBay gets funds going out, and they get funds going into their PayPal company. A double fee for one transaction! Now that is great business! Steve Schoner IMCA #4470 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] eBay Hassles
Hi Steve, It does seem that they are taking a double bite, but that is just business. Their inability to help me has been frustrating. I did, however, get an excellent piece of info from Mark M., who told me, You can request the bidders contact information on the advanced search screen on ebay. I tried it and it works. You input the eBay username and the item number for the auction and you get back the bidders contact info via email, phone number and all - and the bidder gets the same info. I've already used this to clear up a bad feedback I received. The seller mis-fed the info to my account instead of someone who had not paid. But I am still trying to get thru the the buyer who breached the contract and then insists on paying over and over again. We'll see if that one can be cleared up. Good info to have. Thanks Mark. Gary [meteorite-list] eBay Hassles Gary K. Foote Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:10:48 -0800 wrote: Recently I ran some meteorite auctions on eBay. A winning bidder ignored invoices for 3 days past the payment deadline so I resold the item. Now this person keeps paying me, sometimes three times a day, despite my telling him over and over that he breached the contract and that the item is resold. I keep having to refund his $$$ every day. Anyone else ever have a problem like this? eBay says to talk to paypal. Paypal keeps saying to talk to eBay. Advice/experiences like this would be appreciated. The relationship between PayPal and eBay really bothers me. (I hate eBay you all know. Other than a couple of petrographic slides-- No meteorites from me sold there). eBay tells Gary to go to PayPal to settle the complaint, and PayPal says go to eBay. It is like the right hand does not know what the left is doing or vica versa. Now in light of that consider this: Does it not strike any as odd that you get a substantial eBay fee when you sell, and then you get another fee when the funds from eBay go into PayPal? Well, PayPal is owned by eBay. If so, this practice does not seem right. (Maybe the FTC should look into it.) Non auction items, not related to eBay, yes. eBay auction items sold and funds sent to PayPal (an eBay company)... NO! eBay gets funds going out, and they get funds going into their PayPal company. A double fee for one transaction! Now that is great business! Steve Schoner IMCA #4470 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find
Hello Dave, Rubin, John G and List, I want to thank everyone for the kind comments, both public and private, I'm happy to have made a small splash in the big meteorite pond. A special thanks goes out to Dave Andrews for his hospitality while we visited his town, and most of all for leading me right to the Find of a Lifetime or Holy Grail of Holbrook as Dave so fondly called it within minutes of showing it to him. Thanks Dave, it wouldn't have happened if you were not there. I'd like to show all the pictures of the find, tell the story and comment on the conditions which the meteorite was found, etc. However, I'm going to attempt my first article for Meteorite magazine and I will share the story there. Thanks again for the nice words, Larry Atkins Also.. It was a great to meet a bunch of you good folks down in Tucson. Moni, Mark Bowling, Ruben, Mr Grondine, all others I can't name at the moment, it was my pleasure. Mexico Doug, I thought there still may be some fragments left in the Holbrook find site, but I decided to leave them for the first fortunate soul to get there and mine the patch.. Lucky you too! In a message dated 2/12/2007 11:53:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hola Johnny Q, You may be right, but as large as that piece was, it might have taken a couple of years or so for it to be washed or eroded out. But you are right, it was found near the top of a moundjust slightly down from the top. Even one fragment was found under a cow pie. ;-) The miniscule 69 gms. I found that day (largest fragment 43 gms...one of my better days), just didn't seem worth fussing over after Larry's whopper Holy Grail find. ;-) I hope we can post some pictures with some meaning and size scale to it. I have some. The pictures Mark posted (thanks Mark) have no indication as to size. Also, I think that minus the fragment weights, should be worded plus the fragment weights. I know that piece is at least a kilo in weight. Maybe the largest Holbrook in 30 yrs. or so? Maybe Steve Schoner could refresh our memory on his/or others finds? I know he has found some large ones in the past. As far as Bernd's question as to the distribution of large to small stones, I see no pattern whatsoever. Seems to my personal experience, the larger ones are in the middle of the north side. However, there are records of 5 lbs. found on the south side in 1969. (Everet Gibson, I believe). I/we've found a lot of stuff on the south side, but as to when I was there, nothing of size larger than 20 gmsthen came Maria last year. She found 100g or so of an individual in the eastern past on the south side. Nothing that says the larger ones are found in the furthest part of the strewnfield. I've been working on finding things further from the horizontal and vertical plane of the field. I feel in the last few years that we have expanded the 2 mile x 1/2 mile rule by quite a bit. I'm only sharing this info because it really isn't easy to just walk in here and find something substantial. WellI take that back...Larry just did it. Congrats to Larrydon't know how you did it, but you did it. Dave (Sending this as plain text in hopes it will be posted) __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find
Hi all, Larry, I can't to see more pictures and read about your Amazing Holbrook find in Meteorite Mag. Ruben Ruben Garcia Phoenix, Arizona http://www.mr-meteorite.com The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] 10% Off Sale
I've just loaded over 75 meteorites to my for sale page. For the next 48 hours [until 9PM on Thursday EST] I am offering 10% off on all meteorites for sale on my site. I will also ship [within the US] for $4.05 no matter the total weight of your purchases. Be sure to let me know you are coming from the MetList to get the discount. There is an eMail inquiry link on every specimen. Use it to let me know you wish to purchase the item. If I get more than one request for the same piece I will honor the first to order. http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/forsale.html Gary __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] eBay Hassles
Hi Gary, I think you should report an unpaid item to eBay before you relist or resell the item. If you still have no response within 7 days, you have the right to do what you want to do. And eBay will refund you the listing fees instantly. Hope this can help you a little bit All the best Miss Ma Lan Beijing China --- Gary K. Foote [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently I ran some meteorite auctions on eBay. A winning bidder ignored invoices for 3 days past the payment deadline so I resold the item. Now this person keeps paying me, sometimes three times a day, despite my telling him over and over that he breached the contract and that the item is resold. I keep having to refund his $$$ every day. Anyone else ever have a problem like this? eBay says to talk to paypal. Paypal keeps saying to talk to eBay. Advice/experiences like this would be appreciated. Gary __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD - Martian NWA 4480 and Lunar NWA 4472 Ending
Dear Martian and Lunar Enthusiasts, In about half a day the remaining six specimens of NWA 4480, my new Ferroan Basaltic Shergottite AND the last two slices of NWA 4472, a beautiful KREEP-rich lunar, both of which are ending on eBay under my seller name, NaturesVault. Here are the direct links: NWA 4480 Ferroan Basaltic Shergottite (Last six specimens): 202mg part slice (largest available) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemih=008sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AITviewitem=item=180083445000rd=1rd=1 192mg part slice http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemih=008sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AITviewitem=item=180083445136rd=1rd=1 54mg part slice http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemih=008sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AITviewitem=item=180083446273rd=1rd=1 38mg fragment http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemih=008sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AITviewitem=item=180083446504rd=1rd=1 32mg part slice http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemih=008sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AITviewitem=item=180083446825rd=1rd=1 1.280 gram of cutting dust http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemih=008sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AITviewitem=item=180083448180rd=1rd=1 NWA 4472 KREEP-rich Lunar (Last two slices): 5.212g complete slice http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemih=008sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AITviewitem=item=180083450199rd=1rd=1 2.770g complete slice http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemih=008sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AITviewitem=item=180083450384rd=1rd=1 Thank you for looking, and if you are bidding, Good Luck! Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] [SPAM] Re: Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find
They say Holbrook is the product of two breakups, one after the other, when the largest fragment then re-fragmented again. Hi Sterling, Yes, according to the original Holbrook Argus newspaper articles right after the fall, there were two detonations. My theory is that the first landed at the Holbrook strewnfield. The second? Have you seen/heard of Bob Haag's Venus Stone? I know exactly where and how it was found and have been waiting permission to search the private property. Even Bob himself doesn't know how or exactly where it was found (well he might now, because I told him the story a while back). The owners of the land and finders of the stone didn't know what they had and just gave it to a passer-by who in turn traded it for enough cash to buy himself a new trailer house. Just a theory though. Dave __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find
Hello All, Even though I was there, I can't wait to read Larry's article in Meteorite Magazine! As you all know by now, after we left Holbrook we spent the rest of the week hunting Franconia and Gold Basin. For the additional five days I was with him and that stone (when we weren't hunting) we looked at it and talked about it and looked at it again. We weighed it at two post offices, shared babysitting duties, looked at it again and talked about it again. It never got old. It isn't just the hunt and the find that's exciting for me, I also hunt vicariously through everyone in the field. The stories make me want to hunt and the cycle (sickness) continues. Larry failed to mention that he shares a birthday with Sikhote Alin! I guess not everyone shouts from the rooftops like someone else I know insert big goofy grin here. Happy Birthday Larry! Maria __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
