Re: [meteorite-list] SD Fires
Thanks to all on the list who have inquired after our welfare, Angel and I are both doing well, though air quality is really Quite bad, my college has cancelled classes for the week and Angel's work has closed up to now. Tomorrow is optional for her And I am trying to convince her to lay low. Many of the freeways Are closed, anyway and she is caught up on her paperwork (a rare Occurrence). Meanwhile, fires rage around San Diego proper, with over 1/2 million people displaced refugees. Qualcom (Charger) stadium is Loaded with people, as are many of the schools. Outside it is worse Than when Mt. St. Hellen's went off in the 80s - worse by far, actually. Humidity dropped to single digits - VERY rare for San Diego, High winds (Santa Annas) blowing from the east with some powerful Gusts. The number of homes actually burned is much lower than .5 Mil, But still a great tragedy to families effected. It would have to burn through miles of neighborhoods to reach us - Or at least up canyons, but we seem to be safe. Our hay fever is, of Course, out of control. Electricity is down to one lead into the city, but Our home is solar powered, so, we are enjoying air conditioning throughout Without taxing the system. Thanks again, Michael -- God doesn't look at how much we do, but with how much love we do it. Mother Teresa -- When Jesus said, Love your enemies I think he probably meant don't kill them. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion
Hi Martin, all In my archives I can read that my NWA 4399 (considered as Acapulcoite as the many other you mention and acquired from Stefan Ralew) was paired to NWA 2627. So another new Lodranite ? I hope this could be cleared up soon by Nom Com ? My first feeling is that all these NWA numbers (and other) should be re-examined to confirm their new classification as Lodranites. I stay tunedand am ready to open 3 bottles, should my 3 little samples of NWA 2871 (2.1 g end section from Blaine), NWA 2714 (2.38 g full slice from Stefan) and NWA 4399 (also 2.38 g full slice from Stefan) become Lodranites. Now let's go into more details regarding these 3 samples, all classified as acapulcoites at the time (2006). My labels are so far differentiating them in terms of origin and W (weathering) or S (shock) numbers, which are indeed poor criteria. Here is what I can read: NWA 2871: S(low), W3, purchased (or found ?) in Morocco, 2003 NWA 2714: S(low), W3/4, found in Sahara, 2004 NWA 4399: S(min), W(extensive), purchased (or found ?) in Algeria, 2003 To add to the confusion, I aso got from Stefan in 2006 a 32.16 g full crusted slice of an unclassified ordinary chondrite, brecciated, found in Sahara in 2006, S and W unspecified as it was (and still is ?) under study. Its tkw was 1050 g In a previous note, Stefan stated that this meteorite was NWA 2714-likely paired. If this is so, then literature said that NWA 2714 (acapulcoite) was paired with other acapulcoites NWA 1052 (22g), NWA 1054 (86 g), NWA (2656 + 2871) (about 7.5 kg!), NWA 2699 (213 g) and NWA 2989 (77 g). The combined tkw at that time was therefore over 10.858 kg. However, Stefan suspected this new meteorite could be different and sent a new provisoonal at the time) NWA number: 4399! Martin, look at these numbers. Some are mentioned in your post, some other not Question: what is true from the above, regarding pairings ? Are there less ? more ? This comforts me that, bacause of the relatively rare types that are involved (acapulcoites, lodranites), all these meteorites should really be studied separately again and reclassified, hopefully by the same group. If so, it would probably take a looong time Glad to read anyone's comments. In between, beware of wild classifications and some potential unscrupulous dealer's speculations in their near future offerings ! Zelimir A 18:44 24/10/2007 +0200, Martin Altmann a écrit : Nevertheless, that mail could have been send three times, cause it's delighting news for many more collectors, wasn't NWA 2871 that ACAP with especially many pairings? Can we carry them together her? NWA 2656 NWA 2699 NWA 2714 NWA 2866 NWA 2871 NWA 2989 NWA 4399 Which else? So I guess quite a lot of collectors can open a bottle today! Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von drtanuki Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. Oktober 2007 18:29 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; dirk ross Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] AD NWA2871 reclassified now officially aLodranite --additional info for contact Sorry this message bounced. Dear List, Sorry, I forgot to add Blaine`s contact information when I posted his sales ad for the NWA2871 Lodranite super special offer. Much has sold so do wait to buy. His email works sometimes (when it gets checked): Blaine Reed [EMAIL PROTECTED] Best is his telephone/fax: 1-970-874-1487 (Colorado time) Thank you! If you cannot reach him, please email me for prices and availability. Thank you. Dirk Ross...Tokyo drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi List, If anyone missed out on buying NWA2871 you had better buy it now before the price is beyond your reach. Contact Blaine Reed or myself and place your orders for a once-in-a-lifetime chance to own a Lodranite at a reasonable price. Thank you. Dirk Ross...Tokyo www.MeteoritesJapan.com www.InsekiJapan.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Prof. Zelimir Gabelica Université de Haute Alsace ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC, 3, Rue A. Werner, F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94 Fax: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 15 __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion
Hi Zelimir, that almost all those Acaps and now lodranites (yippie) belong together, we reconstructed all together here on the list a while back, guess 1-2 years ago. (Also finding out, that it's quite unlikely compared to the very few Antarctic Acap-groups, the fall stats and the find stats, that there suddenly should appear a dozen different ACAPs from Sahara). Therefore I invited now all involved, that we should try to set the pieces of the puzzle together as far as we can - hopefully without animosities, as the collectors, dealers, maybe scientists would profit all. As you mentioned, Zelimir, those ACAPs with low shock level and weathering degrees of W3,W3-4 are concerned, which often appeared within a shorter time frame from desert paradise. NWA 2656 Oakes.Bulletin: has 356g, broken from a larger mass of 7.5kg NWA 2714 Birdsell/Oakes. 1656g Bulletin: Paired with 2565, stems also according the owners from the same 7.5kg mass. NWA 2699 owner unknown 1294g Bulletin: Paired with NWA 2656 NWA 2866 owner not mentioned 213g Bulletin: paired with NWA 2656 NWA 2871 Reed 3467g Bulletin: Paired with NWA 2656, according Turecki, part of the 7.5kg mass. NWA 2989 Hupe 77g believed by the owner to be paired with NWA 2656 NWA 2775 ReedTurecki 222g nothing known, some say it's the same, some not. NWA 4399 Ralew 210g Bulletin: May be paired with NWA 2627 There we are sure, that it's the same stuff as 2656/2714/2871.. and cause we have some slices left, it should be no problem to get it fixed. NWA 2627 Strope/Farmer 68g nothing known Jim/Mike help! Hence so far, I guess we can say: Officially paired are: NWA 2656, NWA 2699, NWA 2714, NWA 2866, NWA 2871 type specimens of all at NAU (Bunch,Wittke) NWA 2989 is still listed as provisional, no big deal to check the pairing, because type specimen is at Bunch, says data base. Owner says probably paired. NWA 2775 there also the type specimen is at NAU, so a pairing, if exist, could be established there. Here we can be happy, that Blaine owns a part, as Turecki went into hiding, leaving many dealers unpaid. NWA 2627 also at NAU, so... NWA 4399 - there we a sure, the type specimens are in Berlin, but we will take care, that it gets officialized. Others: NWA 1052 and 1054, do not belong to that group, they are much more fresh and fine-grained. NWA 2235 Fectay 64g is definitely to fresh with W1 --- Finally left to be excluded or added to the big main pairing group, where I don't know nothing about, respectively others will know more and better: NWA 725 Fectay 3824g NWA 1617 Oakes 21g (UWS) NWA 3008 Burkhard 157g (Hamburg) NWA 4236 Herkstroeter 24g (Hamburg) NWA 4478 Hupe 444g (UWS) Four of the holders are here on the list, so please help all together! The data I took from the Bulletin database, the other information from the discussion last year, so please, no choler necessary, we all only want to pot Humpty together again and to clear the number mess. (Uhh if one thinks, that the new Martians now around will get almost a dozen numbers...). And, if the last not yet checked for a pairing will have been compared and com-paired, then we will all hope, that it will be added to the Bulletins. Cheers! Martin PS: Zelimir, we checked it back, with the chondrite, you must have mixed something up. It's an L6, still under classification and not ready yet. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Zelimir Gabelica Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Oktober 2007 10:19 An: Martin Altmann; 'drtanuki'; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion Hi Martin, all In my archives I can read that my NWA 4399 (considered as Acapulcoite as the many other you mention and acquired from Stefan Ralew) was paired to NWA 2627. So another new Lodranite ? I hope this could be cleared up soon by Nom Com ? My first feeling is that all these NWA numbers (and other) should be re-examined to confirm their new classification as Lodranites. I stay tunedand am ready to open 3 bottles, should my 3 little samples of NWA 2871 (2.1 g end section from Blaine), NWA 2714 (2.38 g full slice from Stefan) and NWA 4399 (also 2.38 g full slice from Stefan) become Lodranites. Now let's go into more details regarding these 3 samples, all classified as acapulcoites at the time (2006). My labels are so far differentiating them in terms of origin and W (weathering) or S (shock) numbers, which are indeed poor criteria. Here is what I can read: NWA 2871: S(low), W3, purchased (or found ?) in Morocco, 2003 NWA 2714: S(low), W3/4, found in Sahara, 2004 NWA 4399: S(min), W(extensive), purchased (or found ?) in Algeria, 2003 To add to the confusion, I aso got from Stefan in 2006 a 32.16 g full crusted slice of an unclassified ordinary chondrite, brecciated, found in Sahara in 2006, S and W unspecified as it was (and still is ?) under study. Its tkw was 1050 g
[meteorite-list] Lodranite confusion Pics of NWA 4236
Andi Gren, co-owner of NWA 4236, just loaded up some pictures of NWA 4236 for comparison: www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco1.jpg www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco2.jpg Thanks, Andi! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Martin Altmann Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Oktober 2007 14:24 An: 'Zelimir Gabelica'; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion Hi Zelimir, that almost all those Acaps and now lodranites (yippie) belong together, we reconstructed all together here on the list a while back, guess 1-2 years ago. (Also finding out, that it's quite unlikely compared to the very few Antarctic Acap-groups, the fall stats and the find stats, that there suddenly should appear a dozen different ACAPs from Sahara). Therefore I invited now all involved, that we should try to set the pieces of the puzzle together as far as we can - hopefully without animosities, as the collectors, dealers, maybe scientists would profit all. As you mentioned, Zelimir, those ACAPs with low shock level and weathering degrees of W3,W3-4 are concerned, which often appeared within a shorter time frame from desert paradise. NWA 2656 Oakes.Bulletin: has 356g, broken from a larger mass of 7.5kg NWA 2714 Birdsell/Oakes. 1656g Bulletin: Paired with 2565, stems also according the owners from the same 7.5kg mass. NWA 2699 owner unknown 1294g Bulletin: Paired with NWA 2656 NWA 2866 owner not mentioned 213g Bulletin: paired with NWA 2656 NWA 2871 Reed 3467g Bulletin: Paired with NWA 2656, according Turecki, part of the 7.5kg mass. NWA 2989 Hupe 77g believed by the owner to be paired with NWA 2656 NWA 2775 ReedTurecki 222g nothing known, some say it's the same, some not. NWA 4399 Ralew 210g Bulletin: May be paired with NWA 2627 There we are sure, that it's the same stuff as 2656/2714/2871.. and cause we have some slices left, it should be no problem to get it fixed. NWA 2627 Strope/Farmer 68g nothing known Jim/Mike help! Hence so far, I guess we can say: Officially paired are: NWA 2656, NWA 2699, NWA 2714, NWA 2866, NWA 2871 type specimens of all at NAU (Bunch,Wittke) NWA 2989 is still listed as provisional, no big deal to check the pairing, because type specimen is at Bunch, says data base. Owner says probably paired. NWA 2775 there also the type specimen is at NAU, so a pairing, if exist, could be established there. Here we can be happy, that Blaine owns a part, as Turecki went into hiding, leaving many dealers unpaid. NWA 2627 also at NAU, so... NWA 4399 - there we a sure, the type specimens are in Berlin, but we will take care, that it gets officialized. Others: NWA 1052 and 1054, do not belong to that group, they are much more fresh and fine-grained. NWA 2235 Fectay 64g is definitely to fresh with W1 --- Finally left to be excluded or added to the big main pairing group, where I don't know nothing about, respectively others will know more and better: NWA 725 Fectay 3824g NWA 1617 Oakes 21g (UWS) NWA 3008 Burkhard 157g (Hamburg) NWA 4236 Herkstroeter 24g (Hamburg) NWA 4478 Hupe 444g (UWS) Four of the holders are here on the list, so please help all together! The data I took from the Bulletin database, the other information from the discussion last year, so please, no choler necessary, we all only want to pot Humpty together again and to clear the number mess. (Uhh if one thinks, that the new Martians now around will get almost a dozen numbers...). And, if the last not yet checked for a pairing will have been compared and com-paired, then we will all hope, that it will be added to the Bulletins. Cheers! Martin __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion
Hello Martin, Zelimir and List, Your efforts with the ACAP (Lodranite?) new classification is appreciated by all I am sure. I can say that NWA 4478, the Brecciated Lodranite I have, is not paired to the large list of re-classified ACAPs you have put together. First, NWA 4478 is a low metal type and brecciated. A quick comparison to the NWA 4236 photos you posted for Andi: 1) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco1.jpg 2) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco2.jpg NWA 4478 Brecciated Lodranite (Easily not paired to the large ACAP 'Lodranite?' grouping): http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4478/nwa4478slice.jpg Sentence from NWA 4478 classification:, The modal abundance of metal (+ limonite after primary metal) measured by BSE imaging on a large polished slice is 5 vol.%. I think it is imperative to have Ted Bunch at NAU re-examine all of the ACAPs in the grouping and do a side-by-side study, this would truly be the best way to determine pairings and if they are lodranites. I hope this helps a little. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Zelimir Gabelica' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:23 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion Hi Zelimir, that almost all those Acaps and now lodranites (yippie) belong together, we reconstructed all together here on the list a while back, guess 1-2 years ago. (Also finding out, that it's quite unlikely compared to the very few Antarctic Acap-groups, the fall stats and the find stats, that there suddenly should appear a dozen different ACAPs from Sahara). Therefore I invited now all involved, that we should try to set the pieces of the puzzle together as far as we can - hopefully without animosities, as the collectors, dealers, maybe scientists would profit all. As you mentioned, Zelimir, those ACAPs with low shock level and weathering degrees of W3,W3-4 are concerned, which often appeared within a shorter time frame from desert paradise. NWA 2656 Oakes.Bulletin: has 356g, broken from a larger mass of 7.5kg NWA 2714 Birdsell/Oakes. 1656g Bulletin: Paired with 2565, stems also according the owners from the same 7.5kg mass. NWA 2699 owner unknown 1294g Bulletin: Paired with NWA 2656 NWA 2866 owner not mentioned 213g Bulletin: paired with NWA 2656 NWA 2871 Reed 3467g Bulletin: Paired with NWA 2656, according Turecki, part of the 7.5kg mass. NWA 2989 Hupe 77g believed by the owner to be paired with NWA 2656 NWA 2775 ReedTurecki 222g nothing known, some say it's the same, some not. NWA 4399 Ralew 210g Bulletin: May be paired with NWA 2627 There we are sure, that it's the same stuff as 2656/2714/2871.. and cause we have some slices left, it should be no problem to get it fixed. NWA 2627 Strope/Farmer 68g nothing known Jim/Mike help! Hence so far, I guess we can say: Officially paired are: NWA 2656, NWA 2699, NWA 2714, NWA 2866, NWA 2871 type specimens of all at NAU (Bunch,Wittke) NWA 2989 is still listed as provisional, no big deal to check the pairing, because type specimen is at Bunch, says data base. Owner says probably paired. NWA 2775 there also the type specimen is at NAU, so a pairing, if exist, could be established there. Here we can be happy, that Blaine owns a part, as Turecki went into hiding, leaving many dealers unpaid. NWA 2627 also at NAU, so... NWA 4399 - there we a sure, the type specimens are in Berlin, but we will take care, that it gets officialized. Others: NWA 1052 and 1054, do not belong to that group, they are much more fresh and fine-grained. NWA 2235 Fectay 64g is definitely to fresh with W1 --- Finally left to be excluded or added to the big main pairing group, where I don't know nothing about, respectively others will know more and better: NWA 725 Fectay 3824g NWA 1617 Oakes 21g (UWS) NWA 3008 Burkhard 157g (Hamburg) NWA 4236 Herkstroeter 24g (Hamburg) NWA 4478 Hupe 444g (UWS) Four of the holders are here on the list, so please help all together! The data I took from the Bulletin database, the other information from the discussion last year, so please, no choler necessary, we all only want to pot Humpty together again and to clear the number mess. (Uhh if one thinks, that the new Martians now around will get almost a dozen numbers...). And, if the last not yet checked for a pairing will have been compared and com-paired, then we will all hope, that it will be added to the Bulletins. Cheers! Martin PS: Zelimir, we checked it back, with the chondrite, you must have mixed something up. It's an L6, still under classification and not ready yet. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im
[meteorite-list] fix bad brahin
got one of those 5 pound megachunx of brahin back when straight legs were in and it has since now rusted. i wish to refinish+ soak in diesel to try to see the surface, again. what equipment is recommended to resurface+polish this? __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion
Dear Martin, Zelimir and Greg and List, Here is what Blaine wrote about the reclassification of NWA 2871: -- ...it seems that there was an error in the original classification on this (NWA 2871), Lodranites and Acapulcoites (what this was orginally classified as) are pretty much chemically and isotopically indistinguishable. Their only difference is in grain size. Acapolcoites have a fairly small average grain size (under .30mm) and Lodranites have a fairly large average grain size (over .45mm), indicative of deeper origin and slower cooling. This meteorite (NWA 2871) has an average grain size of .6 to .7mm. The error came in that the researchers that did the initial report on this stone thought that the grain size boundary for Lodranites was over .75mm. So my conclusion, since the grain size and chemical analysis fit the classification of a Lodranite, correction of classification should be forth-coming. Crack a bottle of wine Zelimir! My comments in regards to Herr Altmann`s comments: .Yeah, wait until the mess/mass of NWA martian classification numbers and pairing that will be done after this recent find of fresh NWA Martians. In my opinion it is a waste of scientific resource to have each holder/buyer/seller submit under a separate NWA# and then pairing has to be done. Pair the things then assign one official number all at the same lab with the same scientist and don`t pass off extra material that you cannot sell without a number so that someone else is left to have it classified again with an additional NWA #. I am not saying that anyone has done this...it is purely my opinion that number games need to cease and that priority should be given to supporting the scientists to get proper information, so that timely classification and recording in the MetBull can be completed within months and not years. Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo --- Greg Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Martin, Zelimir and List, Your efforts with the ACAP (Lodranite?) new classification is appreciated by all I am sure. I can say that NWA 4478, the Brecciated Lodranite I have, is not paired to the large list of re-classified ACAPs you have put together. First, NWA 4478 is a low metal type and brecciated. A quick comparison to the NWA 4236 photos you posted for Andi: 1) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco1.jpg 2) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco2.jpg NWA 4478 Brecciated Lodranite (Easily not paired to the large ACAP 'Lodranite?' grouping): http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4478/nwa4478slice.jpg Sentence from NWA 4478 classification:, The modal abundance of metal (+ limonite after primary metal) measured by BSE imaging on a large polished slice is 5 vol.%. I think it is imperative to have Ted Bunch at NAU re-examine all of the ACAPs in the grouping and do a side-by-side study, this would truly be the best way to determine pairings and if they are lodranites. I hope this helps a little. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Zelimir Gabelica' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:23 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion Hi Zelimir, that almost all those Acaps and now lodranites (yippie) belong together, we reconstructed all together here on the list a while back, guess 1-2 years ago. (Also finding out, that it's quite unlikely compared to the very few Antarctic Acap-groups, the fall stats and the find stats, that there suddenly should appear a dozen different ACAPs from Sahara). Therefore I invited now all involved, that we should try to set the pieces of the puzzle together as far as we can - hopefully without animosities, as the collectors, dealers, maybe scientists would profit all. As you mentioned, Zelimir, those ACAPs with low shock level and weathering degrees of W3,W3-4 are concerned, which often appeared within a shorter time frame from desert paradise. NWA 2656 Oakes.Bulletin: has 356g, broken from a larger mass of 7.5kg NWA 2714 Birdsell/Oakes. 1656g Bulletin: Paired with 2565, stems also according the owners from the same 7.5kg mass. NWA 2699 owner unknown 1294g Bulletin: Paired with NWA 2656 NWA 2866 owner not mentioned 213g Bulletin: paired with NWA 2656 NWA 2871 Reed 3467g Bulletin: Paired with NWA 2656, according Turecki, part of the 7.5kg mass. NWA 2989 Hupe 77g believed by the owner to be paired with NWA 2656 NWA 2775 ReedTurecki 222g nothing known, some say it's the same,
[meteorite-list] Moroccan Influence or Pairings
Hi Dirk and List, A lot of the pairing problems originate directly from the Moroccan dealers. Case in point, the Martian material paired to NWA 2975. They distributed the material inmasse during the Ensisheim Show to a lot of people. If the original Moroccan dealers (Aziz Habibi and Mohamed Sabai) waited and submitted a full type sample, received an NWA number, then the could have offered it under a single correct number. Another example of which I am directly aware of is a 5 or 6 kilo single stone ureilite I received a sample from, had analyzed, and then personally saw while in Morocco last year. I was not interested in it due to price and let it go. Next time I saw it again was at the Tucson Show where it had been smashed into a half dozen pieces by a Moroccan and offered to several US dealers/collectors. That stone was a beautifully clean and shaped ureilite, what a waste! The more the Moroccans get involved in direct sales to collectors, I feel they need to abide by the NomCom rules and moral high standards of what meteorite science and collecting is all about. Unfortunately, most Moroccans consider these stones as a meal ticket. In some cases, like the nomads who actually find them, this is the case, but once they arrive in Morocco's dealership row, there are no excuses since they often send samples to us and some scientists for analysis. These are a few of my observations, thoughts and complaints of Moroccan behavior. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault .Yeah, wait until the mess/mass of NWA martian classification numbers and pairing that will be done after this recent find of fresh NWA Martians. In my opinion it is a waste of scientific resource to have each holder/buyer/seller submit under a separate NWA# and then pairing has to be done. Pair the things then assign one official number all at the same lab with the same scientist and don`t pass off extra material that you cannot sell without a number so that someone else is left to have it classified again with an additional NWA #. I am not saying that anyone has done this...it is purely my opinion that number games need to cease and that priority should be given to supporting the scientists to get proper information, so that timely classification and recording in the MetBull can be completed within months and not years. Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion
Yes, Dirk, many thanks. I already have acquired a small end section of this NWA 2871 from our good friend Blaine in mid 2006. I corrected and updated earlier this week its status, based on what Blaine recently wrote on his monthly list, believing he might be right (or at least correctly informed) and therefore having already thrown champagne in the frig. Although, regarding all your recent comments, it could perhaps have been wiser to wait now for the new reclassification...but never mind, when champagne is cold enough, we'll drink it anyway. Here is the present description of that NWA 2871, as copied fom my collection catalog: NWA 2871 (Morocco, Lodranite)(SlowW3), found 2003, End Section, 50% crust, 2.01g Description: 18x14x4 mm, black-brown, mottled end s..Was Acapulcoite (2006) but recently reclassified as Lodranite (2007) because of the grain size 045 mm (here: 0.6 to 0.7 mm). Paired with NWA 2656. tkw: [EMAIL PROTECTED],467 g. BR 06/517 I'll spare you the effort to read the description of my other former acapulcoites paired with 2871 and that could possibly become lodranites in future. More generally, may I suggest we, all who will be in Ensisheim in June 2008, celebrate our new (or future) lodranites in collection by some extra beer blast ? I've the feeling we might be many of us involved! And perhaps a special bottle can be set aside for Greg who has an unpaired lodranite! Btw: if all this mess continues, acapulcoites could rapidly become more scarce than lodranites, eh ? Best, Zelimir A 07:48 25/10/2007 -0700, drtanuki a écrit : Dear Martin, Zelimir and Greg and List, Here is what Blaine wrote about the reclassification of NWA 2871: -- ...it seems that there was an error in the original classification on this (NWA 2871), Lodranites and Acapulcoites (what this was orginally classified as) are pretty much chemically and isotopically indistinguishable. Their only difference is in grain size. Acapolcoites have a fairly small average grain size (under .30mm) and Lodranites have a fairly large average grain size (over .45mm), indicative of deeper origin and slower cooling. This meteorite (NWA 2871) has an average grain size of .6 to .7mm. The error came in that the researchers that did the initial report on this stone thought that the grain size boundary for Lodranites was over .75mm. So my conclusion, since the grain size and chemical analysis fit the classification of a Lodranite, correction of classification should be forth-coming. Crack a bottle of wine Zelimir! My comments in regards to Herr Altmann`s comments: .Yeah, wait until the mess/mass of NWA martian classification numbers and pairing that will be done after this recent find of fresh NWA Martians. In my opinion it is a waste of scientific resource to have each holder/buyer/seller submit under a separate NWA# and then pairing has to be done. Pair the things then assign one official number all at the same lab with the same scientist and don`t pass off extra material that you cannot sell without a number so that someone else is left to have it classified again with an additional NWA #. I am not saying that anyone has done this...it is purely my opinion that number games need to cease and that priority should be given to supporting the scientists to get proper information, so that timely classification and recording in the MetBull can be completed within months and not years. Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo --- Greg Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Martin, Zelimir and List, Your efforts with the ACAP (Lodranite?) new classification is appreciated by all I am sure. I can say that NWA 4478, the Brecciated Lodranite I have, is not paired to the large list of re-classified ACAPs you have put together. First, NWA 4478 is a low metal type and brecciated. A quick comparison to the NWA 4236 photos you posted for Andi: 1) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco1.jpg 2) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco2.jpg NWA 4478 Brecciated Lodranite (Easily not paired to the large ACAP 'Lodranite?' grouping): http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4478/nwa4478slice.jpg Sentence from NWA 4478 classification:, The modal abundance of metal (+ limonite after primary metal) measured by BSE imaging on a large polished slice is 5 vol.%. I think it is imperative to have Ted Bunch at NAU re-examine all of the ACAPs in the grouping and do a side-by-side study, this would truly be the best way to determine pairings and if they are lodranites. I hope this helps a little. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Comet 17P (Holmes) Visible Event !
Hi Again: If one were on Mars (hold your breath and bring a warm jacket), Holmes would be 1.17 AU away (vs. 1.63 AU) and 0.7 magnitudes (2 times) brighter than what we see. And there would be less intereference from moonlight! Larry On Wed, October 24, 2007 2:20 pm, mexicodoug wrote: Hi Again Listees, With regards to Comet 17P (Holmes) estimated at under 3.5 Km in diameter, and being twice as far from the Earth as the planet Mars: How could it be one sixteenth as bright as Mars and an easy object in the night sky with an almost Full Moon? No doubt it has a lot of ice crystals or something white and reflective. A rought thought says that in absolute terms it is one fourth the brightness of Mars if they were at the same distance from us! This is because we perceive only 1/4 of the light intensity due to the doubling of distance, It is it is hard to avoid the temptation of thinking this tiny body is of relatively pristine material now confined to the Asteroid belt, but before, from the Outer Solar System, and may, for once, given Jupiter his dues, have been affected by a relatively close pass to the inner Solar System, with Venus, Earth and Mars all aligned this month to exert their gravitational attraction together. Not to mention all of the scientists and collectors who would will material to Earth. The comet is over 40% further away from Earth as it is from Mars at the moment, so I hope the guys with their hands on the controls of the Mars rovers take a break and look up for us at MidSolnight, and that the Deep Impact Crew is already into emergency overdrive to make the comparison they will be held accountable for, now that there is a second chance :-)... Best Skies and great health, Doug - Original Message - From: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Comet 17P (Holmes) Visible Event ! Hello List, This bodes great (in a Titian-Bodean sense) for tonight in Europe and North America. I put a finder chart up for this evening at: www.diogenite.com/17P.jpg This is the show in Europe right now...and should print well to an A4 or letter sized piece of paper. A new star was just born for those familiar with the neighborhood of Algol and Capella. The best time will be as the moon gets lower just before the glow of Sunrise, and the comet will be half way to the Zenith due NW (and the chart will still be fine upside down in the Northern hemisphere). Mars will brightly shine 16 times brighter overhead in Gemini. Nearby is Capella, the 6th largest star and 6th brightest starry object in the sky (Called Colca by the Aymara for a cache of food - which ancient Greeks believed was the horn of plenty Cornucopia, and the name of the famous Valley/Canyon of Condors by Arequipa, Peru) is nearby. Moon or not, it's so bright you can still get a fine view after Sunset if you don't mind the interference from that big Lunar up there. Tonight's the night!! The location on the finder chart is similar for the next week (heading toward Mirphak, just a tad), since the comet is very far away from Earth with respect to noticable relative motion. Best wishes for a long night, Doug - Original Message - From: K. Ohtsuka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MeteoriteList meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Comet 17P (Holmes) Visible Event ! Hello all, I have just looked at the superoutburst of 17P/Holmes, as follows: 2007 Oct. 24.72 UT: m1=2.8, Dia.=, DC=9, by NE Katsu. OHTSUKA Tokyo, JAPAN - Original Message - From: giovannisostero [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mexicodoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 1:22 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Comet 17P (Holmes) Visible Event ! Hi all, this is our BVR shot of 17P/Holmes in outburst (brightest object in the field center): http://tinyurl.com/2mxrmx Cheers, Giovanni and Ernesto __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Re: [meteorite-list] fix bad brahin
Most likely it is infected with Lawrencite disease as these type meteorites are known as Rusters like the Nandan/Nantan. Even if you were to clean the surface it would most likely return until you keep cleaning and removing rust till it finally disappears and I mean the whole meteorite! One method would be to cut until you have a decent center piece (hopefully Lawrencite is not made it's way to the center) then follow a method of preservation. I feel your pain and so I avoid Rusters almost completely from my collection because of some bad experiences. Don M - IMCA #0960 - Original Message - From: mckinney trammell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:40 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] fix bad brahin got one of those 5 pound megachunx of brahin back when straight legs were in and it has since now rusted. i wish to refinish+ soak in diesel to try to see the surface, again. what equipment is recommended to resurface+polish this? __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] fix bad brahin
Hi, You could try the galvanic method of preserving and getting rid of the chlorides that cause this in the first place... http://www.alaska.net/~meteor/Galvanic.pdf I have used it successfully on Morasko and Campo slices but have no idea how the proccess would effect a pallasite. Still waiting to see how well it worked on my 13kg chondrite. Ayone else tried it with a Pallasite?.obviously the main worry is the loosening of the olivine. ...but then if it is corroding away now you dont have much to loose! Good luck, Graham Ensor mckinney trammell wrote: got one of those 5 pound megachunx of brahin back when straight legs were in and it has since now rusted. i wish to refinish+ soak in diesel to try to see the surface, again. what equipment is recommended to resurface+polish this? __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] comet holmes
Jerry, In a century or two, the lightminute will become a common measure of distance. Say you're working on Titan, at the Hydrocarbon Pipeline Base at the foot of the skyhook that pumps it up to static orbit, and you realize that next month you'll have to budget for a long phone call to your wife's parents because it's their 100th wedding anniversary. It's not cheap to call The Old Folks At Home (back on The Moon, as they still call it) and your wife is going to blab endlessly, you know that. The charge rate of the call will contain lightspeed connection times, a surcharge per lightminute. You recall vaguely that Saturn and Earth are both on the same side of the Sun right now; that helps. You get online and check the current surcharge on a call to The Moon. At least it's nowhere as bad as the surcharge to Mars. The lightminute is the most comfortable unit to use inside the solar system, whether you're communicating or not. Just as today anyone who moves around a lot knows that a mile is 5280 feet (and a kilometer is 3280* feet; isn't that handy?), in 200 years all traveled persons will know a lightminute is 18,000,000 kilometers. Only pedants will object that it's really 17,987,547.5 kilometers. Hey! Close enough! For everything but the landing, anyway. It's a lot more convenient to think of the Earth's distance from the Sun as 8.5 lightminutes, or Mars' close approach is just over 3 lightminutes (and Venus' closest just under 3 lightminutes or Jupiter at 39 lightminutes). AU's are too big. Miles and kilometers are too small. The lightminute is just right. And if you're IN a spacecraft making a routine trip in the solar system and covering 2,500,000+ kilometers a day for days on end, you're covering a lightminute every week and wishing you had the price of a high-boost ticket on a hyperbolic orbit liner knocking off a lightminute or more every day. Oh, yeah, those big numbers we use today look very impressive in print (and that's why we use them), but in constant everyday conversation? I don't think so. The lightminute has a future! It's either that, or a new common-use unit like the kilometer: the gigameter. So, a lightminute is 18 gigameters. But because the gigameter doesn't tie to time (and communication) like the lightminute, I think the lightminute will be the winner. Sterling K. Webb - * 3280.8399 feet, you pedants. - - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] comet holmes Hello Jerry: Based on Starry Night, the Shuttle was about 360km away at closest and ISS about 390km away. At 300,000 km/sec (speed of light), we are talking about 1/1000 of a second for light to get from there to here. Not sure how far apart they were, but do not think that it was very much different than that. Larry On Wed, October 24, 2007 8:50 pm, Jerry wrote: What's the time interval for light transmission from this distance to earth? Jerry Flaherty __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] fix bad brahin
hmmm, will try . thanks. --- ensoramanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, You could try the galvanic method of preserving and getting rid of the chlorides that cause this in the first place... http://www.alaska.net/~meteor/Galvanic.pdf I have used it successfully on Morasko and Campo slices but have no idea how the proccess would effect a pallasite. Still waiting to see how well it worked on my 13kg chondrite. Ayone else tried it with a Pallasite?.obviously the main worry is the loosening of the olivine. ...but then if it is corroding away now you dont have much to loose! Good luck, Graham Ensor mckinney trammell wrote: got one of those 5 pound megachunx of brahin back when straight legs were in and it has since now rusted. i wish to refinish+ soak in diesel to try to see the surface, again. what equipment is recommended to resurface+polish this? __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] morrocan and americain influence on pairing
hello list memeber and greg. concerning the problem of pairing, 1=it's not a morrocan problem , it's a world problem. 2= see here your brother adam hupe is sellling this martian you are talking about without nwa number too, he have submited a type sample excelent ,but he has not an nwa number so why is he selling without nwa number.no offense greg this is just to show you that also americain dealer can do the same. 3= you bought from me 10.88 gr from this martian in enseshiem, if you thing it's not good behaviourismes why you did bought from me than.at the time you didn't think to the moral.you did think offer and demande. 4= see here an email posted in this list from your brother selling this martian without nwa number. on the 13/08/2007. i know he get an nwa number later , but at the time he didn't have it, so why he didn't wait. so he did behave like i did . 5= with all my respect to the collector and dealers . the problem is depending on how fast you can get an nwa number,and how fast you can sell. there was many nwa dealers and world dealer selling in this show without nwa number. i think we should stop here more exaplanation are not always good. this is not a personnal problem but it's a structural problem.that concern labs and scientists behaviourismes.formel and informel. i would like to sell all the time with nwa number but it's not always easy , because we are whole sale dealers and i sell to many dealer and colletors that want to have there name on lunar and martian classification , i respect that; i do not like to discuss more on the subject. because i do not want to answer each email that might concern me or concern morroco. but i completly agree that each meteorite must be sold with an nwa numbers. and The more the Moroccans get involved in direct sales to collectors , the more the collectors they get good deals and cheap deals. so the problem is in the near futur many world dealers will not be able to make money enough dealing with morroco , than morrocan dealers will supply the market directly, we can't help it , its the market . sincerly aziz the habibi adam hupe wrote the 13/08/2007. ORIENTED MARTAIN SHERGOTTITE 32.3 gram nearly completed crusted individual with flow-lines. This is part of the recent discovery that has been on the market lately. Unlike most dealers, this piece has been confirmed along with 34 other very small individuals in my collection by the University of Washington, a type specimen has been deposited and a unique number will be assigned when all of the scientists return from Tucson. In the long run, official stones are worth far more and it is very expensive doing the right thing by donating 20% to science. Please keep this in mind when making an offer. I have only seen one other oriented stone from this fall ever offered and it is very difficult to come up with a complete stone not a fragment. I will accept the first offer over $400.00 a gram! http://themeteoritesite.com/Martian-a.jpg http://themeteoritesite.com/Martian-b.jpg Thank you for looking. habibi aziz box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco phone. 21235576145 fax.21235576170 _ Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] morrocan and americain influence on pairing
Hello Habibi, You asked why I purchased some of the Martian material from you in Ensisheim. Simple, I wanted some for my collection and to offer some to others. I will have an NWA number for all of my pieces soon and then I will offer some. As far as the Moroccan influence in pairing issues, if you waited until you received an NWA number for your batch of Martian material than a dozen people would not have to get a dozen different NWA numbers. You have the chance to do things right as far as this goes so why create such a problem. Adam offered his material to a world market but all his material has one NWA number, not a dozen like in the Moroccan marketing plan. There is a big difference. I am not blaming you or trying to start an argument, I am simply trying to point out to you and other Moroccans what should be done since Moroccans are going after the collector market. This brings up another point, if the Moroccans want to keep their long-term largest wholesale customers, they should not play both sides of the fence by selling to dealers and then turning right around and selling directly to dealer's same customers. You will lose big time buyers with this kind of behavior. Again, not picking on you directly, just pointing out the obvious. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: habibi abdelaziz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 3:25 PM Subject: morrocan and americain influence on pairing hello list memeber and greg. concerning the problem of pairing, 1=it's not a morrocan problem , it's a world problem. 2= see here your brother adam hupe is sellling this martian you are talking about without nwa number too, he have submited a type sample excelent ,but he has not an nwa number so why is he selling without nwa number.no offense greg this is just to show you that also americain dealer can do the same. 3= you bought from me 10.88 gr from this martian in enseshiem, if you thing it's not good behaviourismes why you did bought from me than.at the time you didn't think to the moral.you did think offer and demande. 4= see here an email posted in this list from your brother selling this martian without nwa number. on the 13/08/2007. i know he get an nwa number later , but at the time he didn't have it, so why he didn't wait. so he did behave like i did . 5= with all my respect to the collector and dealers . the problem is depending on how fast you can get an nwa number,and how fast you can sell. there was many nwa dealers and world dealer selling in this show without nwa number. i think we should stop here more exaplanation are not always good. this is not a personnal problem but it's a structural problem.that concern labs and scientists behaviourismes.formel and informel. i would like to sell all the time with nwa number but it's not always easy , because we are whole sale dealers and i sell to many dealer and colletors that want to have there name on lunar and martian classification , i respect that; i do not like to discuss more on the subject. because i do not want to answer each email that might concern me or concern morroco. but i completly agree that each meteorite must be sold with an nwa numbers. and The more the Moroccans get involved in direct sales to collectors , the more the collectors they get good deals and cheap deals. so the problem is in the near futur many world dealers will not be able to make money enough dealing with morroco , than morrocan dealers will supply the market directly, we can't help it , its the market . sincerly aziz the habibi adam hupe wrote the 13/08/2007. ORIENTED MARTAIN SHERGOTTITE - 32.3 gram nearly completed crusted individual with flow-lines. This is part of the recent discovery that has been on the market lately. Unlike most dealers, this piece has been confirmed along with 34 other very small individuals in my collection by the University of Washington, a type specimen has been deposited and a unique number will be assigned when all of the scientists return from Tucson. In the long run, official stones are worth far more and it is very expensive doing the right thing by donating 20% to science. Please keep this in mind when making an offer. I have only seen one other oriented stone from this fall ever offered and it is very difficult to come up with a complete stone not a fragment. I will accept the first offer over $400.00 a gram! http://themeteoritesite.com/Martian-a.jpg http://themeteoritesite.com/Martian-b.jpg Thank you for looking. habibi aziz box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco phone. 21235576145 fax.21235576170 _ Ne
Re: [meteorite-list] morrocan and americain influence on pairing
Habibi, You are wrong, The number I acquired at the cost of a separate type sample and lab fees is NWA 4880 for this new Martian. Moroccan dealers should be more responsible in releasing new meteorites. Instead of holding back, maybe all of it should be submitted at once. If you want to retail directly to collectors, you should take on the responsibility of first making the material official as anything less is a disservice to both the scientific and collector communities. Best Regards, Adam --- habibi abdelaziz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hello list memeber and greg. concerning the problem of pairing, 1=it's not a morrocan problem , it's a world problem. 2= see here your brother adam hupe is sellling this martian you are talking about without nwa number too, he have submited a type sample excelent ,but he has not an nwa number so why is he selling without nwa number.no offense greg this is just to show you that also americain dealer can do the same. 3= you bought from me 10.88 gr from this martian in enseshiem, if you thing it's not good behaviourismes why you did bought from me than.at the time you didn't think to the moral.you did think offer and demande. 4= see here an email posted in this list from your brother selling this martian without nwa number. on the 13/08/2007. i know he get an nwa number later , but at the time he didn't have it, so why he didn't wait. so he did behave like i did . 5= with all my respect to the collector and dealers . the problem is depending on how fast you can get an nwa number,and how fast you can sell. there was many nwa dealers and world dealer selling in this show without nwa number. i think we should stop here more exaplanation are not always good. this is not a personnal problem but it's a structural problem.that concern labs and scientists behaviourismes.formel and informel. i would like to sell all the time with nwa number but it's not always easy , because we are whole sale dealers and i sell to many dealer and colletors that want to have there name on lunar and martian classification , i respect that; i do not like to discuss more on the subject. because i do not want to answer each email that might concern me or concern morroco. but i completly agree that each meteorite must be sold with an nwa numbers. and The more the Moroccans get involved in direct sales to collectors , the more the collectors they get good deals and cheap deals. so the problem is in the near futur many world dealers will not be able to make money enough dealing with morroco , than morrocan dealers will supply the market directly, we can't help it , its the market . sincerly aziz the habibi adam hupe wrote the 13/08/2007. ORIENTED MARTAIN SHERGOTTITE 32.3 gram nearly completed crusted individual with flow-lines. This is part of the recent discovery that has been on the market lately. Unlike most dealers, this piece has been confirmed along with 34 other very small individuals in my collection by the University of Washington, a type specimen has been deposited and a unique number will be assigned when all of the scientists return from Tucson. In the long run, official stones are worth far more and it is very expensive doing the right thing by donating 20% to science. Please keep this in mind when making an offer. I have only seen one other oriented stone from this fall ever offered and it is very difficult to come up with a complete stone not a fragment. I will accept the first offer over $400.00 a gram! http://themeteoritesite.com/Martian-a.jpg http://themeteoritesite.com/Martian-b.jpg Thank you for looking. habibi aziz box 70 erfoud 52200 morroco phone. 21235576145 fax.21235576170 _ Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] morrocan and americain influence on pairing
Why do you think that I no longer go to Morocco? I can not make money there now, the Moroccans sell to me at one price, then days later, drop the price and sell direct to collectors. Welcome to the meteorite-dealers club, now do things right and submit type specimens. It is hard to give up 20 grams of Lunar or Martian material isn't it? Why should I have to do it when the Moroccans do not. Many labs in the USA will no longer take samples from Moroccans since they never send 20 grams, they want classification, but will not cough up the required material, and so many labs have been burned, they did the work, then the promised 20 grams never comes. Michael Farmer Hello Habibi, You asked why I purchased some of the Martian material from you in Ensisheim. Simple, I wanted some for my collection and to offer some to others. I will have an NWA number for all of my pieces soon and then I will offer some. As far as the Moroccan influence in pairing issues, if you waited until you received an NWA number for your batch of Martian material than a dozen people would not have to get a dozen different NWA numbers. You have the chance to do things right as far as this goes so why create such a problem. Adam offered his material to a world market but all his material has one NWA number, not a dozen like in the Moroccan marketing plan. There is a big difference. I am not blaming you or trying to start an argument, I am simply trying to point out to you and other Moroccans what should be done since Moroccans are going after the collector market. This brings up another point, if the Moroccans want to keep their long-term largest wholesale customers, they should not play both sides of the fence by selling to dealers and then turning right around and selling directly to dealer's same customers. You will lose big time buyers with this kind of behavior. Again, not picking on you directly, just pointing out the obvious. Best regards, Greg Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection NaturesVault (eBay) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.LunarRock.com IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault - Original Message - From: habibi abdelaziz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 3:25 PM Subject: morrocan and americain influence on pairing hello list memeber and greg. concerning the problem of pairing, 1=it's not a morrocan problem , it's a world problem. 2= see here your brother adam hupe is sellling this martian you are talking about without nwa number too, he have submited a type sample excelent ,but he has not an nwa number so why is he selling without nwa number.no offense greg this is just to show you that also americain dealer can do the same. 3= you bought from me 10.88 gr from this martian in enseshiem, if you thing it's not good behaviourismes why you did bought from me than.at the time you didn't think to the moral.you did think offer and demande. 4= see here an email posted in this list from your brother selling this martian without nwa number. on the 13/08/2007. i know he get an nwa number later , but at the time he didn't have it, so why he didn't wait. so he did behave like i did . 5= with all my respect to the collector and dealers . the problem is depending on how fast you can get an nwa number,and how fast you can sell. there was many nwa dealers and world dealer selling in this show without nwa number. i think we should stop here more exaplanation are not always good. this is not a personnal problem but it's a structural problem.that concern labs and scientists behaviourismes.formel and informel. i would like to sell all the time with nwa number but it's not always easy , because we are whole sale dealers and i sell to many dealer and colletors that want to have there name on lunar and martian classification , i respect that; i do not like to discuss more on the subject. because i do not want to answer each email that might concern me or concern morroco. but i completly agree that each meteorite must be sold with an nwa numbers. and The more the Moroccans get involved in direct sales to collectors , the more the collectors they get good deals and cheap deals. so the problem is in the near futur many world dealers will not be able to make money enough dealing with morroco , than morrocan dealers will supply the market directly, we can't help it , its the market . sincerly aziz the habibi adam hupe wrote the 13/08/2007. ORIENTED MARTAIN SHERGOTTITE - 32.3 gram nearly completed crusted individual with flow-lines. This is part of the recent discovery that has been on the market lately. Unlike most dealers, this piece has
Re: [meteorite-list] comet holmes
Thank you Sterling. That's why I asked, honestly. Skies are clearing overhead. I'll be interested in observing tonight. Last night's moon was of little consequence in seeing the comet. Time to set up tripods for the binocs and a scope as well. I'll get back to you. Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Larry Lebofsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] comet holmes Jerry, In a century or two, the lightminute will become a common measure of distance. Say you're working on Titan, at the Hydrocarbon Pipeline Base at the foot of the skyhook that pumps it up to static orbit, and you realize that next month you'll have to budget for a long phone call to your wife's parents because it's their 100th wedding anniversary. It's not cheap to call The Old Folks At Home (back on The Moon, as they still call it) and your wife is going to blab endlessly, you know that. The charge rate of the call will contain lightspeed connection times, a surcharge per lightminute. You recall vaguely that Saturn and Earth are both on the same side of the Sun right now; that helps. You get online and check the current surcharge on a call to The Moon. At least it's nowhere as bad as the surcharge to Mars. The lightminute is the most comfortable unit to use inside the solar system, whether you're communicating or not. Just as today anyone who moves around a lot knows that a mile is 5280 feet (and a kilometer is 3280* feet; isn't that handy?), in 200 years all traveled persons will know a lightminute is 18,000,000 kilometers. Only pedants will object that it's really 17,987,547.5 kilometers. Hey! Close enough! For everything but the landing, anyway. It's a lot more convenient to think of the Earth's distance from the Sun as 8.5 lightminutes, or Mars' close approach is just over 3 lightminutes (and Venus' closest just under 3 lightminutes or Jupiter at 39 lightminutes). AU's are too big. Miles and kilometers are too small. The lightminute is just right. And if you're IN a spacecraft making a routine trip in the solar system and covering 2,500,000+ kilometers a day for days on end, you're covering a lightminute every week and wishing you had the price of a high-boost ticket on a hyperbolic orbit liner knocking off a lightminute or more every day. Oh, yeah, those big numbers we use today look very impressive in print (and that's why we use them), but in constant everyday conversation? I don't think so. The lightminute has a future! It's either that, or a new common-use unit like the kilometer: the gigameter. So, a lightminute is 18 gigameters. But because the gigameter doesn't tie to time (and communication) like the lightminute, I think the lightminute will be the winner. Sterling K. Webb - * 3280.8399 feet, you pedants. - - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:32 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] comet holmes Hello Jerry: Based on Starry Night, the Shuttle was about 360km away at closest and ISS about 390km away. At 300,000 km/sec (speed of light), we are talking about 1/1000 of a second for light to get from there to here. Not sure how far apart they were, but do not think that it was very much different than that. Larry On Wed, October 24, 2007 8:50 pm, Jerry wrote: What's the time interval for light transmission from this distance to earth? Jerry Flaherty __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Carancas (AD)
Carancas has been one of the more spectacular falls of the Decade - perhaps the most significant since Park Forrest. Besides for creating an impact pit, boiling underground Springs, hitting a house, killing a goat and a llama (when was The last hammer that killed a llama?) it knocked A man to the ground 300 meters from impact and appears to Have let off fumes that made people ill. Due to ignorance and infighting the vast majority of the Material is likely to be forever lost. However, as nice as Mike Farmer has been in supplying Me with a few choice small specimens, I have been able to get Some from another source who traveled with Bob Haag and I can Afford to offer them for the most part at $100 per gram. I have Many sizes and many of them are unique - some with the veining Showing, some without and two with actual fusion crust. Have a look for the fun of it. Anyone interested in purchasing, Contact me off list for the list of actual prices. All specimens come In membrane boxes with informative labeling on the rim. PayPal preferred but all other forms of payment accepted. Here is the link: http://community.webshots.com/album/561172649TZNyyS Best wishes, Michael -- God doesn't look at how much we do, but with how much love we do it. Mother Teresa -- When Jesus said, Love your enemies I think he probably meant don't kill them. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion
So, thank you Bernd, Zelmire, Dirk, Martin for the clarification on the distinction between Lord. and Acopl. If I read correctly, we talking same source, parent body, different depth, analogous to HED material. If so what parent body has been identified as the source for these? Sorry to ask a question that I could research easily but I'm a little behind in my work [like the butcher who backed into the meat slicer]. Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: Zelimir Gabelica [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Greg Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion Yes, Dirk, many thanks. I already have acquired a small end section of this NWA 2871 from our good friend Blaine in mid 2006. I corrected and updated earlier this week its status, based on what Blaine recently wrote on his monthly list, believing he might be right (or at least correctly informed) and therefore having already thrown champagne in the frig. Although, regarding all your recent comments, it could perhaps have been wiser to wait now for the new reclassification...but never mind, when champagne is cold enough, we'll drink it anyway. Here is the present description of that NWA 2871, as copied fom my collection catalog: NWA 2871 (Morocco, Lodranite)(SlowW3), found 2003, End Section, 50% crust, 2.01g Description: 18x14x4 mm, black-brown, mottled end s..Was Acapulcoite (2006) but recently reclassified as Lodranite (2007) because of the grain size 045 mm (here: 0.6 to 0.7 mm). Paired with NWA 2656. tkw: [EMAIL PROTECTED],467 g. BR 06/517 I'll spare you the effort to read the description of my other former acapulcoites paired with 2871 and that could possibly become lodranites in future. More generally, may I suggest we, all who will be in Ensisheim in June 2008, celebrate our new (or future) lodranites in collection by some extra beer blast ? I've the feeling we might be many of us involved! And perhaps a special bottle can be set aside for Greg who has an unpaired lodranite! Btw: if all this mess continues, acapulcoites could rapidly become more scarce than lodranites, eh ? Best, Zelimir A 07:48 25/10/2007 -0700, drtanuki a écrit : Dear Martin, Zelimir and Greg and List, Here is what Blaine wrote about the reclassification of NWA 2871: -- ...it seems that there was an error in the original classification on this (NWA 2871), Lodranites and Acapulcoites (what this was orginally classified as) are pretty much chemically and isotopically indistinguishable. Their only difference is in grain size. Acapolcoites have a fairly small average grain size (under .30mm) and Lodranites have a fairly large average grain size (over .45mm), indicative of deeper origin and slower cooling. This meteorite (NWA 2871) has an average grain size of .6 to .7mm. The error came in that the researchers that did the initial report on this stone thought that the grain size boundary for Lodranites was over .75mm. So my conclusion, since the grain size and chemical analysis fit the classification of a Lodranite, correction of classification should be forth-coming. Crack a bottle of wine Zelimir! My comments in regards to Herr Altmann`s comments: .Yeah, wait until the mess/mass of NWA martian classification numbers and pairing that will be done after this recent find of fresh NWA Martians. In my opinion it is a waste of scientific resource to have each holder/buyer/seller submit under a separate NWA# and then pairing has to be done. Pair the things then assign one official number all at the same lab with the same scientist and don`t pass off extra material that you cannot sell without a number so that someone else is left to have it classified again with an additional NWA #. I am not saying that anyone has done this...it is purely my opinion that number games need to cease and that priority should be given to supporting the scientists to get proper information, so that timely classification and recording in the MetBull can be completed within months and not years. Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo --- Greg Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Martin, Zelimir and List, Your efforts with the ACAP (Lodranite?) new classification is appreciated by all I am sure. I can say that NWA 4478, the Brecciated Lodranite I have, is not paired to the large list of re-classified ACAPs you have put together. First, NWA 4478 is a low metal type and brecciated. A quick comparison to the NWA 4236 photos you posted for Andi: 1) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco1.jpg 2) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco2.jpg NWA 4478 Brecciated Lodranite (Easily not paired to the large ACAP 'Lodranite?' grouping): http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4478/nwa4478slice.jpg
Re: [meteorite-list] morrocan and americain influence on pairing
In a message dated 10/25/2007 2:49:29 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As far as the Moroccan influence in pairing issues, if you waited until you received an NWA number for your batch of Martian material than a dozen people would not have to get a dozen different NWA numbers. You have the chance to do things right as far as this goes so why create such a problem. Adam offered his material to a world market but all his material has one NWA number, not a dozen like in the Moroccan marketing plan. There is a big difference. I agree with Greg only as far as this is concerned. The problem could and should be taken care of at the source. It would be relatively easy for Moroccan dealers to get together when a new meteorite appears, like the new one from Mali or this Lodranite or the many-numbered Shergottite. You could put the whole mass aside and send just one sample of 20 grams to the University of Casablanca. You would probably get a response with a month or 2 and then you could all put the meteorite on the market at the same time. And with just ONE number. And American/German/...etc dealers who go to Morocco and manage to grab a new meteorite before you do, could certainly do that exact same thing: get together, get only one number, and send only one piece to a lab. And just think how much you would save! instead of sending 8 to 12 times 20g, you would send only one 20g piece, shared by that many people, that reduces the cost enormously. Please do not tell me it is impossible. During the Denver Show, Blaine Reed and I bought the 2 halves of one meteorite, probably a Ureilite, and we agreed to send one piece to UCLA, to get one number, and we will release it on the market at the same time, after we get the full report from Alan Rubin. So yes it is possible. And it is not difficult. I certainly wish other dealers would be as willing to collaborate as Blaine!. Anne M. Black www.IMPACTIKA.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. www.IMCA.cc ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion/parent body
Hi Jerry, According to this link...S class asteroids http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/L/lodranite.html Grahm Ensor Jerry wrote: So, thank you Bernd, Zelmire, Dirk, Martin for the clarification on the distinction between Lord. and Acopl. If I read correctly, we talking same source, parent body, different depth, analogous to HED material. If so what parent body has been identified as the source for these? Sorry to ask a question that I could research easily but I'm a little behind in my work [like the butcher who backed into the meat slicer]. Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: Zelimir Gabelica [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Greg Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion Yes, Dirk, many thanks. I already have acquired a small end section of this NWA 2871 from our good friend Blaine in mid 2006. I corrected and updated earlier this week its status, based on what Blaine recently wrote on his monthly list, believing he might be right (or at least correctly informed) and therefore having already thrown champagne in the frig. Although, regarding all your recent comments, it could perhaps have been wiser to wait now for the new reclassification...but never mind, when champagne is cold enough, we'll drink it anyway. Here is the present description of that NWA 2871, as copied fom my collection catalog: NWA 2871 (Morocco, Lodranite)(SlowW3), found 2003, End Section, 50% crust, 2.01g Description: 18x14x4 mm, black-brown, mottled end s..Was Acapulcoite (2006) but recently reclassified as Lodranite (2007) because of the grain size 045 mm (here: 0.6 to 0.7 mm). Paired with NWA 2656. tkw: [EMAIL PROTECTED],467 g. BR 06/517 I'll spare you the effort to read the description of my other former acapulcoites paired with 2871 and that could possibly become lodranites in future. More generally, may I suggest we, all who will be in Ensisheim in June 2008, celebrate our new (or future) lodranites in collection by some extra beer blast ? I've the feeling we might be many of us involved! And perhaps a special bottle can be set aside for Greg who has an unpaired lodranite! Btw: if all this mess continues, acapulcoites could rapidly become more scarce than lodranites, eh ? Best, Zelimir A 07:48 25/10/2007 -0700, drtanuki a écrit : Dear Martin, Zelimir and Greg and List, Here is what Blaine wrote about the reclassification of NWA 2871: -- ...it seems that there was an error in the original classification on this (NWA 2871), Lodranites and Acapulcoites (what this was orginally classified as) are pretty much chemically and isotopically indistinguishable. Their only difference is in grain size. Acapolcoites have a fairly small average grain size (under .30mm) and Lodranites have a fairly large average grain size (over .45mm), indicative of deeper origin and slower cooling. This meteorite (NWA 2871) has an average grain size of .6 to .7mm. The error came in that the researchers that did the initial report on this stone thought that the grain size boundary for Lodranites was over .75mm. So my conclusion, since the grain size and chemical analysis fit the classification of a Lodranite, correction of classification should be forth-coming. Crack a bottle of wine Zelimir! My comments in regards to Herr Altmann`s comments: .Yeah, wait until the mess/mass of NWA martian classification numbers and pairing that will be done after this recent find of fresh NWA Martians. In my opinion it is a waste of scientific resource to have each holder/buyer/seller submit under a separate NWA# and then pairing has to be done. Pair the things then assign one official number all at the same lab with the same scientist and don`t pass off extra material that you cannot sell without a number so that someone else is left to have it classified again with an additional NWA #. I am not saying that anyone has done this...it is purely my opinion that number games need to cease and that priority should be given to supporting the scientists to get proper information, so that timely classification and recording in the MetBull can be completed within months and not years. Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo --- Greg Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Martin, Zelimir and List, Your efforts with the ACAP (Lodranite?) new classification is appreciated by all I am sure. I can say that NWA 4478, the Brecciated Lodranite I have, is not paired to the large list of re-classified ACAPs you have put together. First, NWA 4478 is a low metal type and brecciated. A quick comparison to the NWA 4236 photos you posted for Andi: 1) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco1.jpg 2) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco2.jpg NWA 4478
Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion
Shht Jerry, I'm still searching for undiscovered NWA-ACAP-numbers. Found another one! (Thanks Alex). NWA 3305 http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/photos/nwa3305_hano_strufe.JPG Looks also not sooo fresh, so maybe it could fit in the main-pairing group. Hanno, enlighten us! Tkw, type specimen, where it's from..?? Isn't given in the database yet. Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Jerry Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Oktober 2007 00:26 An: Zelimir Gabelica; drtanuki; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Martin Altmann; Greg Hupe Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion So, thank you Bernd, Zelmire, Dirk, Martin for the clarification on the distinction between Lord. and Acopl. If I read correctly, we talking same source, parent body, different depth, analogous to HED material. If so what parent body has been identified as the source for these? Sorry to ask a question that I could research easily but I'm a little behind in my work [like the butcher who backed into the meat slicer]. Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: Zelimir Gabelica [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Greg Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion Yes, Dirk, many thanks. I already have acquired a small end section of this NWA 2871 from our good friend Blaine in mid 2006. I corrected and updated earlier this week its status, based on what Blaine recently wrote on his monthly list, believing he might be right (or at least correctly informed) and therefore having already thrown champagne in the frig. Although, regarding all your recent comments, it could perhaps have been wiser to wait now for the new reclassification...but never mind, when champagne is cold enough, we'll drink it anyway. Here is the present description of that NWA 2871, as copied fom my collection catalog: NWA 2871 (Morocco, Lodranite)(SlowW3), found 2003, End Section, 50% crust, 2.01g Description: 18x14x4 mm, black-brown, mottled end s..Was Acapulcoite (2006) but recently reclassified as Lodranite (2007) because of the grain size 045 mm (here: 0.6 to 0.7 mm). Paired with NWA 2656. tkw: [EMAIL PROTECTED],467 g. BR 06/517 I'll spare you the effort to read the description of my other former acapulcoites paired with 2871 and that could possibly become lodranites in future. More generally, may I suggest we, all who will be in Ensisheim in June 2008, celebrate our new (or future) lodranites in collection by some extra beer blast ? I've the feeling we might be many of us involved! And perhaps a special bottle can be set aside for Greg who has an unpaired lodranite! Btw: if all this mess continues, acapulcoites could rapidly become more scarce than lodranites, eh ? Best, Zelimir A 07:48 25/10/2007 -0700, drtanuki a écrit : Dear Martin, Zelimir and Greg and List, Here is what Blaine wrote about the reclassification of NWA 2871: -- ...it seems that there was an error in the original classification on this (NWA 2871), Lodranites and Acapulcoites (what this was orginally classified as) are pretty much chemically and isotopically indistinguishable. Their only difference is in grain size. Acapolcoites have a fairly small average grain size (under .30mm) and Lodranites have a fairly large average grain size (over .45mm), indicative of deeper origin and slower cooling. This meteorite (NWA 2871) has an average grain size of .6 to .7mm. The error came in that the researchers that did the initial report on this stone thought that the grain size boundary for Lodranites was over .75mm. So my conclusion, since the grain size and chemical analysis fit the classification of a Lodranite, correction of classification should be forth-coming. Crack a bottle of wine Zelimir! My comments in regards to Herr Altmann`s comments: .Yeah, wait until the mess/mass of NWA martian classification numbers and pairing that will be done after this recent find of fresh NWA Martians. In my opinion it is a waste of scientific resource to have each holder/buyer/seller submit under a separate NWA# and then pairing has to be done. Pair the things then assign one official number all at the same lab with the same scientist and don`t pass off extra material that you cannot sell without a number so that someone else is left to have it classified again with an additional NWA #. I am not saying that anyone has done this...it is purely my opinion that number games need to cease and that priority should be given to supporting the scientists to get proper information, so that timely classification and recording in the MetBull can be completed within months and not years. Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo
Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion/parent body
Thanks Graham for the quick response. Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: ensoramanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion/parent body Hi Jerry, According to this link...S class asteroids http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/L/lodranite.html Grahm Ensor Jerry wrote: So, thank you Bernd, Zelmire, Dirk, Martin for the clarification on the distinction between Lord. and Acopl. If I read correctly, we talking same source, parent body, different depth, analogous to HED material. If so what parent body has been identified as the source for these? Sorry to ask a question that I could research easily but I'm a little behind in my work [like the butcher who backed into the meat slicer]. Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: Zelimir Gabelica [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Greg Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion Yes, Dirk, many thanks. I already have acquired a small end section of this NWA 2871 from our good friend Blaine in mid 2006. I corrected and updated earlier this week its status, based on what Blaine recently wrote on his monthly list, believing he might be right (or at least correctly informed) and therefore having already thrown champagne in the frig. Although, regarding all your recent comments, it could perhaps have been wiser to wait now for the new reclassification...but never mind, when champagne is cold enough, we'll drink it anyway. Here is the present description of that NWA 2871, as copied fom my collection catalog: NWA 2871 (Morocco, Lodranite)(SlowW3), found 2003, End Section, 50% crust, 2.01g Description: 18x14x4 mm, black-brown, mottled end s..Was Acapulcoite (2006) but recently reclassified as Lodranite (2007) because of the grain size 045 mm (here: 0.6 to 0.7 mm). Paired with NWA 2656. tkw: [EMAIL PROTECTED],467 g. BR 06/517 I'll spare you the effort to read the description of my other former acapulcoites paired with 2871 and that could possibly become lodranites in future. More generally, may I suggest we, all who will be in Ensisheim in June 2008, celebrate our new (or future) lodranites in collection by some extra beer blast ? I've the feeling we might be many of us involved! And perhaps a special bottle can be set aside for Greg who has an unpaired lodranite! Btw: if all this mess continues, acapulcoites could rapidly become more scarce than lodranites, eh ? Best, Zelimir A 07:48 25/10/2007 -0700, drtanuki a écrit : Dear Martin, Zelimir and Greg and List, Here is what Blaine wrote about the reclassification of NWA 2871: -- ...it seems that there was an error in the original classification on this (NWA 2871), Lodranites and Acapulcoites (what this was orginally classified as) are pretty much chemically and isotopically indistinguishable. Their only difference is in grain size. Acapolcoites have a fairly small average grain size (under .30mm) and Lodranites have a fairly large average grain size (over .45mm), indicative of deeper origin and slower cooling. This meteorite (NWA 2871) has an average grain size of .6 to .7mm. The error came in that the researchers that did the initial report on this stone thought that the grain size boundary for Lodranites was over .75mm. So my conclusion, since the grain size and chemical analysis fit the classification of a Lodranite, correction of classification should be forth-coming. Crack a bottle of wine Zelimir! My comments in regards to Herr Altmann`s comments: .Yeah, wait until the mess/mass of NWA martian classification numbers and pairing that will be done after this recent find of fresh NWA Martians. In my opinion it is a waste of scientific resource to have each holder/buyer/seller submit under a separate NWA# and then pairing has to be done. Pair the things then assign one official number all at the same lab with the same scientist and don`t pass off extra material that you cannot sell without a number so that someone else is left to have it classified again with an additional NWA #. I am not saying that anyone has done this...it is purely my opinion that number games need to cease and that priority should be given to supporting the scientists to get proper information, so that timely classification and recording in the MetBull can be completed within months and not years. Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo --- Greg Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Martin, Zelimir and List, Your efforts with the ACAP (Lodranite?) new classification is appreciated by all I am sure. I can say that NWA 4478, the Brecciated Lodranite I have, is not paired to the large list of
Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion
Hello, well, I received my material in 2006. Take a look at my sales page where I offer this since last year. I wrote in the description, that it is possibly paired with other NWA numbers of the ACAP see at http://www.strufe.net/special_acap.htm The classificatiosn was done for me from Rainer Bartoschewitz. It will hopefully be published, soon. But now, after all these news, I have to check again and compaire with the material from other collectors and dealers. Best regards Hanno __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] comet holmes
Hi Sterling, Jerry and Listees, Entertaining treatise Sterling! Though I think your idea of time won't fly because you are very over-sexagesimal. In a perfect future, we would have disposed of the inefficient measure of time every applied to a decimal world. And hopefully trash all these confusing angular measurements from the same obsolete 5000 year old Sumerian system that we are stuck with which re-enfore the seconds, minutes and hours(degrees) system! Just try using a GPS without getting CTS with all these useless conversions. How many people have been turned off from math, and absolutely gone wacky with trig conversions and needlessly complex coordinate systems, not to mention poor, poor, poor astronomers that have to deal with all of these needlessly nasty formulas of time seconds minutes hours and all kinds of years that always cause typos, incredibly clunky measuring systems and mistakes in decimalization? 24 hours in a day? 7 days in a week? 12 months in a year but months vary in length? Better yet, 365.242... something days in a year? 360 degrees in a circle? 60 arcminutes in a degree? And the Sun measures how many arcseconds means what? The Cesium 133 atom at what location? Hopefully, we, the forefathers can take an idea from ancient enlightened France (no doubt Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson would have preferred it too, but just assumed we'd clean up the mess for them by now). The new unit is the decimal second and everything is base 10's. For example, when someone says the Sun measures 0.15 chi (32 arcminutes), you'll know it is 0.15% of a full circle which has 100 degrees all around. And the telephone company can surcharge us for light-tick (600 microdays, chis, etc.) if you want, when a call to Venus at three light-ticks (1800 microdays, or chis, etc.) will mean to you delay of 2.59 light minutes. And all this will fit perfectly into the metric system, and make Poincaré and Lagrange proud. A good example of a new year http://www.angelfire.com/hi/funline/digitime.html Of course, your light-minute spirit can still fly, as long as we fix the time. The future is just a tick away...by then we hopefully can figure out how to get rid of that Cesium isotope, too. Best wishes, Doug PS Things that scientists mascarade about explaining suddenly will be so obvious, everyone will know what is going on and scientists will have to keep busy doing real science. As for distance, there is no problem with giga and mega, just ask any kid. Not a good idea introducing yet another arbitrary thing into the mix. The distance light travels in whatever time period is useful when dealing with interplanetary communication and imaging, but these distances are always changing above absolute zero, so I don't see much a point except when making observations or explaining delays in communicating. There won't be any linear scale for charging for distance any more than cell phone providers currently surcharge us by our distance from the nearest cell phone transmission tower. $$$ just depends on who's network you go roaming to Titan on... some things will never change. - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 3:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] comet holmes Thank you Sterling. That's why I asked, honestly. Skies are clearing overhead. I'll be interested in observing tonight. Last night's moon was of little consequence in seeing the comet. Time to set up tripods for the binocs and a scope as well. I'll get back to you. Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Larry Lebofsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] comet holmes Jerry, In a century or two, the lightminute will become a common measure of distance. Say you're working on Titan, at the Hydrocarbon Pipeline Base at the foot of the skyhook that pumps it up to static orbit, and you realize that next month you'll have to budget for a long phone call to your wife's parents because it's their 100th wedding anniversary. It's not cheap to call The Old Folks At Home (back on The Moon, as they still call it) and your wife is going to blab endlessly, you know that. The charge rate of the call will contain lightspeed connection times, a surcharge per lightminute. You recall vaguely that Saturn and Earth are both on the same side of the Sun right now; that helps. You get online and check the current surcharge on a call to The Moon. At least it's nowhere as bad as the surcharge to Mars. The lightminute is the most comfortable unit to use inside the solar system, whether you're communicating or not. Just as today anyone who moves around a lot knows that a mile
[meteorite-list] Comet 17P (Holmes)
Hi List. If any of you have Starry Night Pro 6 you can follow Comet Holmes by clicking FIND on the side panel and type in HOLMES (17P) Pretty awesome program! Don Merchant __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Comet 17P (Holmes)
Hi Don: I am still running 5.X and it works fine. Unfortunately the updates still give it as 17th magnitude. Thanks to Sterling I moved to Mars to see how bright it was (2 times brighter). Larry On Thu, October 25, 2007 4:48 pm, Don Merchant wrote: Hi List. If any of you have Starry Night Pro 6 you can follow Comet Holmes by clicking FIND on the side panel and type in HOLMES (17P) Pretty awesome program! Don Merchant __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Holmes [17P]
Just to update those interested, there is no diminishing in brightness in fact there may be a slight increase. It defintely looks cometary in binoculars with a bright center and hazy coma. And as someone said last nite, it has a redish cast. What is particularly interesting is its altitude. UT 0:57 shows it at 40+ degrees to the horizon and is increasing to the zenith. This will make for perfect observation throughout the night. Looks like anyone who wants to, can see this phenomenon as their weather cooperates. Looking out the window in a darkened room is even a good possibility. Look nne at about 40 degrees [half way between the zenith and horizon]. Clear Skies to all. Jerry Flaherty __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P]
Even with the extra-bright full moon and the usual urban light pollution, 17/P Holmes is a nice naked-eye object here in Madison, WI this evening. The coma is suprisingly large and shows a bright, star-like condensation or center through 7X50 binoculars. I agree with Jeff that color is apparent, showing a yellowish --almost orange -- cast. If you haven't yet taken a look (and have clear skies), NOW is the time to get outdoors and witness this most unusual event. Mark - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:01 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P] Just to update those interested, there is no diminishing in brightness in fact there may be a slight increase. It defintely looks cometary in binoculars with a bright center and hazy coma. And as someone said last nite, it has a redish cast. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P]
Jerry and Mark: Nancy and I just went out and saw it again tonight. It appears brighter than last night and it is clearly much more comet-like than last night. Yesterday it looked just a little not-star-like, but tonight, it is obviously fuzzy with the star-like condensation. It is clearly getting bigger! On Thu, October 25, 2007 7:29 pm, Mark Langenfeld wrote: Even with the extra-bright full moon and the usual urban light pollution, 17/P Holmes is a nice naked-eye object here in Madison, WI this evening. The coma is suprisingly large and shows a bright, star-like condensation or center through 7X50 binoculars. I agree with Jeff that color is apparent, showing a yellowish --almost orange -- cast. If you haven't yet taken a look (and have clear skies), NOW is the time to get outdoors and witness this most unusual event. Mark - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:01 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P] Just to update those interested, there is no diminishing in brightness in fact there may be a slight increase. It defintely looks cometary in binoculars with a bright center and hazy coma. And as someone said last nite, it has a redish cast. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Science article on Stardust samples
Abstract. Full paper requires a subscription or an obscene $10 for a day's access (to that single article) http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/318/5850/613 Science 26 October 2007: Vol. 318. no. 5850, pp. 613 - 615 DOI: 10.1126/science.1147273 Reports Outward Transport of High-Temperature Materials Around the Midplane of the Solar Nebula Fred J. Ciesla The Stardust samples collected from Comet 81P/Wild 2 indicate that large-scale mixing occurred in the solar nebula, carrying materials from the hot inner regions to cooler environments far from the Sun. Similar transport has been inferred from telescopic observations of protoplanetary disks around young stars. Models for protoplanetary disks, however, have difficulty explaining the observed levels of transport. Here I report the results of a new two-dimensional model that shows that outward transport of high-temperature materials in protoplanetary disks is a natural outcome of disk formation and evolution. This outward transport occurs around the midplane of the disk. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P], continued
Hi Again: We just looked at it with a 100mm f/5 telescope and it is clearly orange. However, it is also very obvious that this thing is unusual. I thought that I had a focusing problem, but the scope was in focus. There is a beautiful circular coma, but the condensation is NOT star-like. It is about 1/4 the diameter of the outer coma! Never seen anything like this. Larry On Thu, October 25, 2007 7:29 pm, Mark Langenfeld wrote: Even with the extra-bright full moon and the usual urban light pollution, 17/P Holmes is a nice naked-eye object here in Madison, WI this evening. The coma is suprisingly large and shows a bright, star-like condensation or center through 7X50 binoculars. I agree with Jeff that color is apparent, showing a yellowish --almost orange -- cast. If you haven't yet taken a look (and have clear skies), NOW is the time to get outdoors and witness this most unusual event. Mark - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:01 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P] Just to update those interested, there is no diminishing in brightness in fact there may be a slight increase. It defintely looks cometary in binoculars with a bright center and hazy coma. And as someone said last nite, it has a redish cast. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Rocks From Space Picture of the Day - October 26, 2007
http://www.spacerocksinc.com/October_26_2007.html . . . . . __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P], continued
Hi, Larry, List, Stuck under cloud cover so dense that even the nearly Full Moon does not even make a bright area behind it, I have only your description and my imagination to work with, but your observation could be of what is in effect an inner and an outer coma with different densities. The reflectivity of the coma is dependent on the density of the particles making up the coma. The usually even brightening of the coma toward a star-like condensation (the nucleus) is due to the continuously increasing density of particles as you proceed toward the nucleus, and that uniformity is the result of a more or less constant rate of outflow. The appearance of a brighter (hence denser) inner coma could be the density discontinuity or boundary between the spreading and dispersing coma of the original outburst and the expanding front of a new and greater outburst of an increased amount of material that has occurred more recently and is now expanding outward. Wouldn't that be great? I put in my request for a magnitude 0 or magnitude -1 comet by Saturday night! Let's have a bigger, better comet (and one that will last longer than my clouds). Larry, if you know the field of view of your scope, you can estimate the size of the coma. Every arc minute at the distance of Holmes 17P is 70,680 km across (or 424,000 km per degree). Is it bright? Brian Marsden says he's getting nova reports: This is a terrific outburst, said Brian Marsden, director emeritus of the Minor Planet Center, which tracks known comets and asteroids. And since it doesn't have a tail right now, some observers have confused it with a nova. We've had at least two reports of a new star. Go, Holmes! Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mark Langenfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P], continued Hi Again: We just looked at it with a 100mm f/5 telescope and it is clearly orange. However, it is also very obvious that this thing is unusual. I thought that I had a focusing problem, but the scope was in focus. There is a beautiful circular coma, but the condensation is NOT star-like. It is about 1/4 the diameter of the outer coma! Never seen anything like this. Larry On Thu, October 25, 2007 7:29 pm, Mark Langenfeld wrote: Even with the extra-bright full moon and the usual urban light pollution, 17/P Holmes is a nice naked-eye object here in Madison, WI this evening. The coma is suprisingly large and shows a bright, star-like condensation or center through 7X50 binoculars. I agree with Jeff that color is apparent, showing a yellowish --almost orange -- cast. If you haven't yet taken a look (and have clear skies), NOW is the time to get outdoors and witness this most unusual event. Mark - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:01 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P] Just to update those interested, there is no diminishing in brightness in fact there may be a slight increase. It defintely looks cometary in binoculars with a bright center and hazy coma. And as someone said last nite, it has a redish cast. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] MORE COMET HOLMES
Hi, All List member Chris Peterson is too busy observing Holmes to post it here (rightfully), but his website has excellent pictures of the comet and a lot of up-to-date information: http://www.cloudbait.com/gallery/comet/holmes.html Everyone mention that a tail has not yet formed, but if you look at the NASA-JPL orbit simulation: http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=17P;orb=1 you'll see that any tail (which by default points away from the Sun) would point away from the Earth at a very similar angle. The tail would (will) have to be fairly long before we got our first glimpse of it and... the coma is in the way, too. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P], continued
Hi Sterling: It looks more like a planetary nebula to me! I will try to get an estimate of its size tomorrow night when I am at a darker site in Yuma with a bigger scope and maybe a camera. It is always hard to get a real magnitude for a comet since one usually talks about integrated magnitude. However, I would say that it is not that different than Mirfak in Perseus which is 1.8, so much brighter than last night. This makes sense since it a lot bigger too. On Thu, October 25, 2007 9:01 pm, Sterling K. Webb wrote: Hi, Larry, List, Stuck under cloud cover so dense that even the nearly Full Moon does not even make a bright area behind it, I have only your description and my imagination to work with, but your observation could be of what is in effect an inner and an outer coma with different densities. The reflectivity of the coma is dependent on the density of the particles making up the coma. The usually even brightening of the coma toward a star-like condensation (the nucleus) is due to the continuously increasing density of particles as you proceed toward the nucleus, and that uniformity is the result of a more or less constant rate of outflow. The appearance of a brighter (hence denser) inner coma could be the density discontinuity or boundary between the spreading and dispersing coma of the original outburst and the expanding front of a new and greater outburst of an increased amount of material that has occurred more recently and is now expanding outward. Wouldn't that be great? I put in my request for a magnitude 0 or magnitude -1 comet by Saturday night! Let's have a bigger, better comet (and one that will last longer than my clouds). Larry, if you know the field of view of your scope, you can estimate the size of the coma. Every arc minute at the distance of Holmes 17P is 70,680 km across (or 424,000 km per degree). Is it bright? Brian Marsden says he's getting nova reports: This is a terrific outburst, said Brian Marsden, director emeritus of the Minor Planet Center, which tracks known comets and asteroids. And since it doesn't have a tail right now, some observers have confused it with a nova. We've had at least two reports of a new star. Go, Holmes! Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mark Langenfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P], continued Hi Again: We just looked at it with a 100mm f/5 telescope and it is clearly orange. However, it is also very obvious that this thing is unusual. I thought that I had a focusing problem, but the scope was in focus. There is a beautiful circular coma, but the condensation is NOT star-like. It is about 1/4 the diameter of the outer coma! Never seen anything like this. Larry On Thu, October 25, 2007 7:29 pm, Mark Langenfeld wrote: Even with the extra-bright full moon and the usual urban light pollution, 17/P Holmes is a nice naked-eye object here in Madison, WI this evening. The coma is suprisingly large and shows a bright, star-like condensation or center through 7X50 binoculars. I agree with Jeff that color is apparent, showing a yellowish --almost orange -- cast. If you haven't yet taken a look (and have clear skies), NOW is the time to get outdoors and witness this most unusual event. Mark - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:01 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P] Just to update those interested, there is no diminishing in brightness in fact there may be a slight increase. It defintely looks cometary in binoculars with a bright center and hazy coma. And as someone said last nite, it has a redish cast. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P], continued
Larry, and List: I thought I might sneak a peak with my binoculars from the Pittsburgh, PA area. Didn't think I had much of a chance with the bright moon but, WOW, in 11x80 binoculars the comet is BIG. I had to get a look with my C-11 and it is spectacular. I have never seen such a comet. It appears to be coming directly at us so we see the large coma and no tail. Could that be possible?? With my washed out skies I didn't see much color but it is big and beautiful. I took some quick pictures with a digital camera just held up to the eyepiece and the photos are dramatic - central condensation with a large coma surrounding it. Dave --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Again: We just looked at it with a 100mm f/5 telescope and it is clearly orange. However, it is also very obvious that this thing is unusual. I thought that I had a focusing problem, but the scope was in focus. There is a beautiful circular coma, but the condensation is NOT star-like. It is about 1/4 the diameter of the outer coma! Never seen anything like this. Larry On Thu, October 25, 2007 7:29 pm, Mark Langenfeld wrote: Even with the extra-bright full moon and the usual urban light pollution, 17/P Holmes is a nice naked-eye object here in Madison, WI this evening. The coma is suprisingly large and shows a bright, star-like condensation or center through 7X50 binoculars. I agree with Jeff that color is apparent, showing a yellowish --almost orange -- cast. If you haven't yet taken a look (and have clear skies), NOW is the time to get outdoors and witness this most unusual event. Mark - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:01 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P] Just to update those interested, there is no diminishing in brightness in fact there may be a slight increase. It defintely looks cometary in binoculars with a bright center and hazy coma. And as someone said last nite, it has a redish cast. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P], continued
Stuck under cloud cover so dense that even the nearly Full Moon does not even make a bright area behind it, We have identical skies. I have been observing for 30+ years and I can't remember a time when every major astronomical event for over two years has been clouded over for me! I have missed eclipses, transits, grazings, GRBs (okay, we won't count those) and probably more than a few TLPs! ARG. This is killing me... -Walter - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mark Langenfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 12:01 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P], continued Hi, Larry, List, Stuck under cloud cover so dense that even the nearly Full Moon does not even make a bright area behind it, I have only your description and my imagination to work with, but your observation could be of what is in effect an inner and an outer coma with different densities. The reflectivity of the coma is dependent on the density of the particles making up the coma. The usually even brightening of the coma toward a star-like condensation (the nucleus) is due to the continuously increasing density of particles as you proceed toward the nucleus, and that uniformity is the result of a more or less constant rate of outflow. The appearance of a brighter (hence denser) inner coma could be the density discontinuity or boundary between the spreading and dispersing coma of the original outburst and the expanding front of a new and greater outburst of an increased amount of material that has occurred more recently and is now expanding outward. Wouldn't that be great? I put in my request for a magnitude 0 or magnitude -1 comet by Saturday night! Let's have a bigger, better comet (and one that will last longer than my clouds). Larry, if you know the field of view of your scope, you can estimate the size of the coma. Every arc minute at the distance of Holmes 17P is 70,680 km across (or 424,000 km per degree). Is it bright? Brian Marsden says he's getting nova reports: This is a terrific outburst, said Brian Marsden, director emeritus of the Minor Planet Center, which tracks known comets and asteroids. And since it doesn't have a tail right now, some observers have confused it with a nova. We've had at least two reports of a new star. Go, Holmes! Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mark Langenfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:02 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P], continued Hi Again: We just looked at it with a 100mm f/5 telescope and it is clearly orange. However, it is also very obvious that this thing is unusual. I thought that I had a focusing problem, but the scope was in focus. There is a beautiful circular coma, but the condensation is NOT star-like. It is about 1/4 the diameter of the outer coma! Never seen anything like this. Larry On Thu, October 25, 2007 7:29 pm, Mark Langenfeld wrote: Even with the extra-bright full moon and the usual urban light pollution, 17/P Holmes is a nice naked-eye object here in Madison, WI this evening. The coma is suprisingly large and shows a bright, star-like condensation or center through 7X50 binoculars. I agree with Jeff that color is apparent, showing a yellowish --almost orange -- cast. If you haven't yet taken a look (and have clear skies), NOW is the time to get outdoors and witness this most unusual event. Mark - Original Message - From: Jerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:01 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Holmes [17P] Just to update those interested, there is no diminishing in brightness in fact there may be a slight increase. It defintely looks cometary in binoculars with a bright center and hazy coma. And as someone said last nite, it has a redish cast. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] MORE COMET HOLMES #2
According to Chris, the coma is about 3.3 arc minutes across, or 230,000 kilometers. The very brightest part is about 2.8 arc minutes or 196,000 km across. Chris has a light curve on his website (URL below. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 11:17 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] MORE COMET HOLMES Hi, All List member Chris Peterson is too busy observing Holmes to post it here (rightfully), but his website has excellent pictures of the comet and a lot of up-to-date information: http://www.cloudbait.com/gallery/comet/holmes.html Everyone mention that a tail has not yet formed, but if you look at the NASA-JPL orbit simulation: http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=17P;orb=1 you'll see that any tail (which by default points away from the Sun) would point away from the Earth at a very similar angle. The tail would (will) have to be fairly long before we got our first glimpse of it and... the coma is in the way, too. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] MORE COMET HOLMES #2
I've updated the profile at http://www.cloudbait.com/gallery/comet/holmes.html with data taken tonight. The brighter central coma is now at least twice as wide (6.7 arcmin across), with some structure showing as far out as 13-17 arcmin. I did take some images tonight which I may add to the site tomorrow. I still see no structure, just a bigger object. Right now I'm running an overnight photometric sequence, so I'll see tomorrow how the brightness might be changing with time (that will actually be a light curve; the other data is an intensity profile). Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:40 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] MORE COMET HOLMES #2 According to Chris, the coma is about 3.3 arc minutes across, or 230,000 kilometers. The very brightest part is about 2.8 arc minutes or 196,000 km across. Chris has a light curve on his website (URL below. Sterling K. Webb __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
