Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY....
A seemingly honest fellow from Sandy Hook, NJ came to my office late today in the hope I could verify what he was told could be a meteorite---and it is. are honestbut I just don't get it. Hi Darryl, Either you run with it or you give it back. But posting the pictures of the etch pattern should be pretty good evidence of some of the larger transported falls. Lots of explanations could account for the meteorite (the prior owner died and the rock stayed on the porch --- it's happened before ...etc.), but if we listen to Jefferson, while it would be easier to believe they are lying, the facts are what must be established. What do you have to lose? If you don't want to risk time and money, just see if they'll fax a release giving you permission to have it analyzed and just for your own protection slip in that they represent in good faith that the meteorite is their property and presented to you as an unknown for verification (which you mention is what gives them the right to have it analyzed since meteorites can be valuble)... Good luck, if it's a scam, bring it on. Let's see those pix...After all, no obvious match on the etch is great news no matter how you *slice* it. If the etch matches a large widely distributed fall, but they insisted and you wanted out,you could always offer to take a nice slice to pay your expenses in case it turns out to be common. Does that make sense? Kindest wishes Doug A seemingly honest fellow from Sandy Hook, NJ came to my office late today in the hope I could verify what he was told could be a meteorite---and it is. This fellow said that just after he moved in a year ago, he found it on the embankment of his backyard just beyond which is a 75 foot escarpment. The wife said she tried to throw the rusty thing out a couple of times and both times he rescued it from the garbage. It is a medium octahedrite which weighs 4.236 kg. How do I know it's a medium octahedrite? I could make out a feint pattern underneath a veneer of rust on the cut face. Yes, roughly speaking, this fellow found a cut and prepared meteorite in his backyard. The fellow left the specimen in my possession and agreed to allow me to have a sample removed and forwarded for analysis. I advised him there could be a problem here that could be readily determined---and he didn't seem fazed. While I've been accused of being naive, I nonetheless genuinely believe he and his wife are honestbut I just don't get it. Any thoughts here? Northeastern New Jersey. End piece. Medium octahedrite. 4.2 kg. I'll get a pic posted tomorrow. All best and thanks / d, __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
This went out to the IMCA list a day or so ago; since then, a little more information has come to light -- please see below. - Hello All, As you may or may not know, a former IMCA member named John Bryan Scarborough was found to be selling misrepresented material from at least four different falls/finds (Mifflin, Ash Creek, Zunhua, and Deport). He recently changed his ebay username to lonestar*meteorites, and is selling the following specimen of Tissint. http://www.ebay.com/itm/METEORITE-NEW-TISSINT-MARS-SHERGOTTITE-0-49g-100-CRUSTED-WITNESSED-7-18-2011-/280822837261?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item416258700d#ht_500wt_1085 I've seen a significant portion of the stones from this fall, and know for a fact that stones covered entirely in primary fusion crust are extraordinarily rare, if not completely absent, from recovered finds. Even pieces that have some primary fusion crust typically do not resemble this above stone: http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/tata_0-81-1.jpg http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=360869963936731set=o.162786720415331type=1theater As you can see, the crust is thin enough to discern visible olivine phenocrysts on the fragment showing primary crust, and all of the other stones pictured are covered in glossy secondary crust that looks rather different from the specimen on ebay. The ebay auction linked to above *may* be of a real piece of Tissint, but I am highly suspicious of it based on its appearance. The stone pictured on ebay does not look like any of those stones, and instead looks like a small complete Camel Donga. http://www.rocksonfire.com/new_itempage-camel%20donga57.htm Scarborough is offering another piece of Tissint on ebay, accompanied by photographs that make it appear to be a specimen purchased from Darryl Pitt: http://www.ebay.com/itm/METEORITE-NEW-TISSINT-MARS-SHERGOTTITE-0-662-GRAMS-WITNESSED-FALL-7-18-2011-/280822579982?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item416254830e#ht_500wt_1085 Which I point out only so that you all know that Scarborough is also offering Tissint that is apparently real. However, since the small individual I regard as highly suspect is not accompanied by such photos, I would assume that it was not purchased from the same source, and is thus less likely to be Tissint, given the seller's history. Since John Bryan's labels have been wrong in the past, if you insist on purchasing specimens from him, I would suggest buying based only on the appearance of what he sells. I can offer no other evidence to suggest that the above stone is real or fake, but would add that I've seen some 2.5 kilograms of Tissint in person, to say nothing of photographs. Regards, Jason -- Darryl has since confirmed that the individual of Tissint being offered did not come from him, though the fragment did; it doesn't prove anything, but it makes me doubt the individual's authenticity all the more. The 27.2 gram slice of Oum Dreyga Brandon mentioned is also most definitely an L-chondrite (L3/4-6 breccia, to include likely possibilities). http://www.ebay.com/itm/OUM-DREYGA-H3-5-METEORITE-27-2-g-BEAUTIFUL-THICK-FUSION-CRUSTED-SLICE-/280805041109?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item416148e3d5#ht_692wt_1070 The crust is too smooth and sand-blasted, the broken edges of the slice are covered in caliche, and it's an L-chondrite. It's a nice slice, but it's not Oum Dreyga. In light of Brandon's recent post and the previous stuff...I really don't have much else to say. Brandon's noted that the slice he purchased from Scarborough was sold as unclassified while this new slice is being offered as Oum Dreyga. This rather points towards Scarborough's being responsible for the errors, though it's still not proof of fraud. All one could do is analyze the slice, confirm it is (not) Oum Dreyga, and...prove what we already know, which is that he has sold (and is selling) material that is mislabeled. Does anyone have a solid contact at ebay? I've called them before about things like this, but it doesn't seem to do much. Regards, Jason __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
New AZ Chondrite http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpod.asp __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Tucson Met. Auction Results
Hi Michael, I believe you may be looking at the 2011 results. I am not aware of a Johnstown in the 2012 auction. It there was one, What was the lot 3, please. Michael On 2/13/12 6:19 PM, Met. Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Michael and List, I notice the Johnstown specimen is missing from the results. What did it sell for? Best regards, MikeG __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY....
Hi Folks, Sandy Hook is a national Park, regular civilians don't live there. There are no 75ft escarpments in Sandy Hook. Maybe if the guy said he was from Atlantic Highlands, that would make more sense. This story is full of holes, Daryl please be careful. Best Regards from New Jersey, John Higgins IMCA # 9822 www.outerspacerocks.com From: Pete Pete rsvp...@hotmail.com To: dar...@dof3.com; m...@meteoriteguy.com Cc: meteoritelist meteoritelist meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; i...@imcamail.de Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 11:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY I agree with Mike, Daryl! I'm trying to imagine a scenario of a house on a ravine, a guy finding a rusty lump, and the wife persistently tries to throw the lump out in the garbage(?!) instead of simply heaving it over the fence? Doesn't track. Sounds like a scripted story. Like we say at work - The name's Tucker, not sucker! Pete From: dar...@dof3.com Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 23:10:31 -0500 To: m...@meteoriteguy.com CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; i...@imcamail.de Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY Hi, I'm not inclined to disagreeit doesn't add up. On Feb 13, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Michael Farmer wrote: Scam. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 13, 2012, at 8:45 PM, Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com wrote: Folks, I need your help; there is a problem here---I'm just not certain as to its nature. A seemingly honest fellow from Sandy Hook, NJ came to my office late today in the hope I could verify what he was told could be a meteorite---and it is. This fellow said that just after he moved in a year ago, he found it on the embankment of his backyard just beyond which is a 75 foot escarpment. The wife said she tried to throw the rusty thing out a couple of times and both times he rescued it from the garbage. It is a medium octahedrite which weighs 4.236 kg. How do I know it's a medium octahedrite? I could make out a feint pattern underneath a veneer of rust on the cut face. Yes, roughly speaking, this fellow found a cut and prepared meteorite in his backyard. The fellow left the specimen in my possession and agreed to allow me to have a sample removed and forwarded for analysis. I advised him there could be a problem here that could be readily determined---and he didn't seem fazed. While I've been accused of being naive, I nonetheless genuinely believe he and his wife are honestbut I just don't get it. Any thoughts here? Northeastern New Jersey. End piece. Medium octahedrite. 4.2 kg. I'll get a pic posted tomorrow. All best and thanks / d, __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD Homestead, HOW, URE and SAU001
Dear List Members, I have some nice pieces for sale : Homestead, 40g piece with Vienna label. https://picasaweb.google.com/10086119851742847/Homestead40GramWithViennaLabel?authkey=Gv1sRgCN2u0viuuoz-jgE Half specimen of NWA 2696 Howardite, 41g, really nice texture : https://picasaweb.google.com/10086119851742847/NWA2696HOW41g?authkey=Gv1sRgCI3a4rrPlsmJ0gE NWA 6069, Ureilite Main Mass, 1.5 kg (very interesting ureilite, transparen on thin slices) : https://picasaweb.google.com/10086119851742847/UreiliteNWA6069MainMass1568g?authkey=Gv1sRgCPmjwsqomM2OJw SAU 001, L4/5 Oman, weight : 2492g, beauty 90% complete crutsted specimen, with rollover lips and flow lines : https://picasaweb.google.com/10086119851742847/SAU0012492g?authkey=Gv1sRgCMW1hdb3kpbdxAE# Hard to get such huge piece today. All question please send to illae...@gmail.com All the best Tomasz Jakubowski IMCA #2321 Managing Editor www.meteorites.pwr.wroc.pl -- Free Tibet __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY....
Hi, Thanks, everyone, for the initial wave of responses both on and off list. I've clarified the following two points raised below and have taken a path similar to what Doug mentioned (also below). Hopefully our learning what meteorite this is will prove helpful. Please circulate as you deem appropriate. Here are the pics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/darrylpitt/ Best/ d On Feb 14, 2012, at 7:06 AM, John higgins wrote: Hi Folks, Sandy Hook is a national Park, regular civilians don't live there. There are no 75ft escarpments in Sandy Hook. Maybe if the guy said he was from Atlantic Highlands, that would make more sense. This story is full of holes, Daryl please be careful. Best Regards from New Jersey, John Higgins IMCA # 9822 www.outerspacerocks.com He is from Highlands, NJ near Sandy Hook. I remembered the Sandy Hook reference and provided it as a general location in Northeastern, N.J. I didn't know that Sandy Hook was not also a town. On Feb 13, 2012, at 11:52 PM, Pete Pete wrote: I agree with Mike, Daryl! I'm trying to imagine a scenario of a house on a ravine, a guy finding a rusty lump, and the wife persistently tries to throw the lump out in the garbage(?!) instead of simply heaving it over the fence? Doesn't track. Sounds like a scripted story. Like we say at work - The name's Tucker, not sucker! Pete No fence. (I asked as I was also bewildered). Reportedly found at the edge of an escarpment. The wife seems honest and was the one doing the sleuthing here. On Feb 14, 2012, at 3:15 AM, MexicoDoug wrote: A seemingly honest fellow from Sandy Hook, NJ came to my office late today in the hope I could verify what he was told could be a meteorite---and it is. are honestbut I just don't get it. Hi Darryl, Either you run with it or you give it back. But posting the pictures of the etch pattern should be pretty good evidence of some of the larger transported falls. Lots of explanations could account for the meteorite (the prior owner died and the rock stayed on the porch --- it's happened before ...etc.), but if we listen to Jefferson, while it would be easier to believe they are lying, the facts are what must be established. What do you have to lose? If you don't want to risk time and money, just see if they'll fax a release giving you permission to have it analyzed and just for your own protection slip in that they represent in good faith that the meteorite is their property and presented to you as an unknown for verification (which you mention is what gives them the right to have it analyzed since meteorites can be valuble)... Good luck, if it's a scam, bring it on. Let's see those pix...After all, no obvious match on the etch is great news no matter how you *slice* it. If the etch matches a large widely distributed fall, but they insisted and you wanted out,you could always offer to take a nice slice to pay your expenses in case it turns out to be common. Does that make sense? Kindest wishes Doug On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:45 PM, Darryl Pitt wrote: Folks, I need your help; there is a problem here---I'm just not certain as to its nature. A seemingly honest fellow from Sandy Hook, NJ came to my office late today in the hope I could verify what he was told could be a meteorite---and it is. This fellow said that just after he moved in a year ago, he found it on the embankment of his backyard just beyond which is a 75 foot escarpment. The wife said she tried to throw the rusty thing out a couple of times and both times he rescued it from the garbage. It is a medium octahedrite which weighs 4.236 kg. How do I know it's a medium octahedrite? I could make out a feint pattern underneath a veneer of rust on the cut face. Yes, roughly speaking, this fellow found a cut and prepared meteorite in his backyard. The fellow left the specimen in my possession and agreed to allow me to have a sample removed and forwarded for analysis. I advised him there could be a problem here that could be readily determined---and he didn't seem fazed. While I've been accused of being naive, I nonetheless genuinely believe he and his wife are honestbut I just don't get it. Any thoughts here? Northeastern New Jersey. End piece. Medium octahedrite. 4.2 kg. I'll get a pic posted tomorrow. All best and thanks / d, __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
List, Like I posted before. I am sick of this self appointed judge and jury BS. I, and Dr. Ted Bunch, were victims of this type of witch hunt last year and when all allegations of misconduct were thoroughly proven to be falseno apology from anyone was forthcoming. Scarborough, as I posted before, has dozens of experienced collectors and dealers worldwide, many far more knowledgeable than our self appointed inquisitioner, bidding and buying his offerings apparently without complaint... including the rock in question. He has a 100% feedback rating and offers a full money back guarantee. I don't know the validity of the charges made against this dealer in the past, but if they are as bogus as the ones that slandered me, I don't believe they belong on this site in the manner they are being presented...which is guilty before proven innocent, and they don't belong on this List. Now, I have done the obvious and contacted Scarborough, whom I have never met, and informed him of these allegations and asked if he would be interested in contesting them by providing provenance of the piece in question. If, he responds, I will share what he represents to all. Which is what should have ben done before these actionable slanders continue. I will make an admission here in an attempt to prove my point. I once was sued for slander per se and successfully defended my simple remark. It cost me thousands to defend myself and in the end I found that my, I thought innocent remark, had come within one vote of an eight person jury of finding me guilty. I learned then to keep my mouth shut unless willing to back it up with incontrovertible evidence and a deep pocket book. Finally, If members continue to make allegations and take the risk of suit against us all, that's right...ask your attorney about IMCA's liability in promoting slanderous statements, at least when allegations are proven bogus and/or driven by personal vindictiveness, see that an abject apology is issued. I'm still waiting for mine. Regards, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 Original Message- From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com Sent: Feb 14, 2012 2:29 AM To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough This went out to the IMCA list a day or so ago; since then, a little more information has come to light -- please see below. - Hello All, As you may or may not know, a former IMCA member named John Bryan Scarborough was found to be selling misrepresented material from at least four different falls/finds (Mifflin, Ash Creek, Zunhua, and Deport). He recently changed his ebay username to lonestar*meteorites, and is selling the following specimen of Tissint. http://www.ebay.com/itm/METEORITE-NEW-TISSINT-MARS-SHERGOTTITE-0-49g-100-CRUSTED-WITNESSED-7-18-2011-/280822837261?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item416258700d#ht_500wt_1085 I've seen a significant portion of the stones from this fall, and know for a fact that stones covered entirely in primary fusion crust are extraordinarily rare, if not completely absent, from recovered finds. Even pieces that have some primary fusion crust typically do not resemble this above stone: http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/tata_0-81-1.jpg http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=360869963936731set=o.162786720415331type=1theater As you can see, the crust is thin enough to discern visible olivine phenocrysts on the fragment showing primary crust, and all of the other stones pictured are covered in glossy secondary crust that looks rather different from the specimen on ebay. The ebay auction linked to above *may* be of a real piece of Tissint, but I am highly suspicious of it based on its appearance. The stone pictured on ebay does not look like any of those stones, and instead looks like a small complete Camel Donga. http://www.rocksonfire.com/new_itempage-camel%20donga57.htm Scarborough is offering another piece of Tissint on ebay, accompanied by photographs that make it appear to be a specimen purchased from Darryl Pitt: http://www.ebay.com/itm/METEORITE-NEW-TISSINT-MARS-SHERGOTTITE-0-662-GRAMS-WITNESSED-FALL-7-18-2011-/280822579982?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item416254830e#ht_500wt_1085 Which I point out only so that you all know that Scarborough is also offering Tissint that is apparently real. However, since the small individual I regard as highly suspect is not accompanied by such photos, I would assume that it was not purchased from the same source, and is thus less likely to be Tissint, given the seller's history. Since John Bryan's labels have been wrong in the past, if you insist on purchasing specimens from him, I would suggest buying based only on the appearance of what he sells. I can offer no other evidence to suggest that the above stone is real or fake, but would add that I've seen some 2.5 kilograms of Tissint in person, to say nothing of photographs. Regards, Jason -- Darryl has since confirmed that
Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
Hi Count and Kudos' to you! You bring up some very real and serious points. I hope I don't upset anyone with this post. I have this huge pet peeve of those that sell meteorites without listing, mentioning and or providing a Provenance on meteorites whether it be on eBay or their Websites.You don't go out and purchase a used car without asking for a car fax or asking questions before purchasing it, and so the same should also be done when interested in purchasing a meteorite from anyone, be it eBay or Dealer Website or any other form of Auctions. I refuse to purchase any meteorite from anyone without this provenance or at the lease asking the Seller on a meteorites history. As I have said before, meteorites don't grow on trees! They arrived in the Sellers possession from somewhere and or from someone other then those meteorites that have been found. Those meteorites found would most likely and better have been sent to a lab for testing and verification so as to start some form of provenance. I highly recommend to ALL Sellers/Collectors and Dealers to inquire the validity of meteorites they intend to purchase. SAVE this provenance label or paper of history so the next future buyer can have a copy of it for his or her records. I find it sloppy professionalism to those who can not provide provenance time and time again on meteorites they sell. Though an ID card helps...the truth is anyone can make up an ID card. A provenance can be traced to the former owner and more questions can then be brought up on the specimens validity. Consider it a blood line so to speak or family tree! Hope I did not offend anyone with my views. I am just trying to protect all of you and your collections including mine by enacting professional organized record keeping practices. - Original Message - From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net To: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com; Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough List, Like I posted before. I am sick of this self appointed judge and jury BS. I, and Dr. Ted Bunch, were victims of this type of witch hunt last year and when all allegations of misconduct were thoroughly proven to be falseno apology from anyone was forthcoming. Scarborough, as I posted before, has dozens of experienced collectors and dealers worldwide, many far more knowledgeable than our self appointed inquisitioner, bidding and buying his offerings apparently without complaint... including the rock in question. He has a 100% feedback rating and offers a full money back guarantee. I don't know the validity of the charges made against this dealer in the past, but if they are as bogus as the ones that slandered me, I don't believe they belong on this site in the manner they are being presented...which is guilty before proven innocent, and they don't belong on this List. Now, I have done the obvious and contacted Scarborough, whom I have never met, and informed him of these allegations and asked if he would be interested in contesting them by providing provenance of the piece in question. If, he responds, I will share what he represents to all. Which is what should have ben done before these actionable slanders continue. I will make an admission here in an attempt to prove my point. I once was sued for slander per se and successfully defended my simple remark. It cost me thousands to defend myself and in the end I found that my, I thought innocent remark, had come within one vote of an eight person jury of finding me guilty. I learned then to keep my mouth shut unless willing to back it up with incontrovertible evidence and a deep pocket book. Finally, If members continue to make allegations and take the risk of suit against us all, that's right...ask your attorney about IMCA's liability in promoting slanderous statements, at least when allegations are proven bogus and/or driven by personal vindictiveness, see that an abject apology is issued. I'm still waiting for mine. Regards, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 Original Message- From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com Sent: Feb 14, 2012 2:29 AM To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough This went out to the IMCA list a day or so ago; since then, a little more information has come to light -- please see below. - Hello All, As you may or may not know, a former IMCA member named John Bryan Scarborough was found to be selling misrepresented material from at least four different falls/finds (Mifflin, Ash Creek, Zunhua, and Deport). He recently changed his ebay username to lonestar*meteorites, and is selling the following specimen of Tissint.
Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
Sorry again list. I was so rattled I forgot to sign off with my name! Sincerely Don Merchant Hi Count and Kudos' to you! You bring up some very real and serious points. I hope I don't upset anyone with this post. I have this huge pet peeve of those that sell meteorites without listing, mentioning and or providing a Provenance on meteorites whether it be on eBay or their Websites.You don't go out and purchase a used car without asking for a car fax or asking questions before purchasing it, and so the same should also be done when interested in purchasing a meteorite from anyone, be it eBay or Dealer Website or any other form of Auctions. I refuse to purchase any meteorite from anyone without this provenance or at the least asking the Seller on a meteorites history. As I have said before, meteorites don't grow on trees! They arrived in the Sellers possession from somewhere and or from someone other then those meteorites that have been found. Those meteorites found would most likely and better have been sent to a lab for testing and verification so as to start some form of provenance. I highly recommend to ALL Sellers/Collectors and Dealers to inquire the validity of meteorites they intend to purchase. SAVE this provenance label or paper of history so the next future buyer can have a copy of it for his or her records. I find it sloppy professionalism to those who can not provide provenance time and time again on meteorites they sell. Though an ID card helps...the truth is anyone can make up an ID card. A provenance can be traced to the former owner and more questions can then be brought up on the specimens validity. Consider it a blood line so to speak or family tree! Hope I did not offend anyone with my views. I am just trying to protect all of you and your collections including mine by enacting professional organized record keeping practices. Sincerely Don Merchant __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Please read this. Bryan Scarborough still at it!
MikeG, list, I have never done business with Scarborough nor have I ever met him. I only know of him through this list. I understand your confusion because I did have a bad experience with a Mifflin meteorite but, it has since been completely explained and anybody effected was quickly refunded their money. For the record; In a nut shell what happened is this; I purchased a find from Mifflin that later turned out to be a throw down (meteorite used to adjust either a metal detector or to give a visual comparison) left behind. I sent this pristine fully crusted find to be cut and sold by a well known dealer. I never saw the interior of this cut stone or I would have recognized it as odd and the NWA fall it turned out to be. It was re-sold and I was alerted to it's odd morphology by a buyer I had never met before. I called the dealer selling the material and he told me another well known dealer told him it was a likely second lithology of Mifflin. Had I not been told this the sales would have ended then. Long story short; the stone turned out to be a throw down from a different hunter. This story was believable because the stone was found the day after another stone had been found in the same area. This is where it gets interesting. The day the first stone was found and announced with much excitement , the land owner came outside and proclaimed it had been found on her land and she demanded it be handed over to her. The finder argued that it was found on the side of the road but, the lady insisted the road belonged to her as it was built on her land. When the finder refused to give up the meteorite she demanded everyone they had to leave or she would have the police remove them. This meant that everyone left in a hurry. Apparently leaving behind a throw down. This throw down was found by a different hunter the next day and subsequently sold to me. At the time I did not know where this stone was found. This info was reveled to me later but, he too says the lady could not prove the road belonged to her so he too kept it. Due to possible litigation against me because I cannot prove or dis-prove this story I chose to write this off as experience and we paid back all buyers of this stone but, to this day we have not had a single piece returned to us. I guess people chose to keep this material along with the full refunds we gave. I truly hope they flushed it all down the toilet as this has caused much grief and confusion. In any case I hope this clears things up. Carl Esparza Meteoritemax -- Cheers Galactic Stone Ironworks meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Brandon and List, Thanks so much for this warning and going public with it. You are doing a valuable service to the meteorite community as a whole. I have noticed a DISTURBING trend in the meteorite world lately, and that is secrecy involving members who have fallen from grace by offering bogus specimens. Without Jason Utas coming forward and going public, non-IMCA members would have never known that their collections were compromised by Scarborough-Esparza bogus Mifflin affair where NWA chondrites like Chergach/Bassi were being sold as Mifflin. To all of the watchdog groups out there who are supposedly safeguarding the integrity of the market - STOP BEING SECRETIVE about the wrongdoings of your members. By sweeping their misdeeds under the rug, you are doing to entire community a disservice and acting as accomplices in the destruction of the integrity of collections of non-members who are not privy to the internal business/wrongdoings of the group. The entire community, members or not, have a RIGHT to now if their collections are comprised by your members. Stop trying to salvage the damaged reputation of your group by hiding the crimes of disgraced members. This secrecy is backfiring because many of us are informed collectors who are not pushovers or fools - we know what is going on, despite the best attempts to cover it up. It's only making the group worse than it really is. The next time one of the members of these groups engages in criminal or unethical activity, do not limit the announcement to your own members - TELL THE PUBLIC. We have a right to know. If not, informed collectors are going to start taking their business elsewhere. Best regards, MikeG -- * Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone *** On 2/13/12, Brandon b1dunov...@aol.com wrote: List, I would like to give my opinion regarding Bryan Scarborough a.k.a, lonestar*meteorites. I try to give everyone the benifit of the doubt and after hearing the questions about John/Bryan's Tissint listing I had
Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY....
What type of backyard equipment does this couple have that could produce such a perfect cut on an iron meteorite? Looks to me like a previously purchased iron left out to rust a bit. On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com wrote: Hi, Thanks, everyone, for the initial wave of responses both on and off list. I've clarified the following two points raised below and have taken a path similar to what Doug mentioned (also below). Hopefully our learning what meteorite this is will prove helpful. Please circulate as you deem appropriate. Here are the pics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/darrylpitt/ Best/ d On Feb 14, 2012, at 7:06 AM, John higgins wrote: Hi Folks, Sandy Hook is a national Park, regular civilians don't live there. There are no 75ft escarpments in Sandy Hook. Maybe if the guy said he was from Atlantic Highlands, that would make more sense. This story is full of holes, Daryl please be careful. Best Regards from New Jersey, John Higgins IMCA # 9822 www.outerspacerocks.com He is from Highlands, NJ near Sandy Hook. I remembered the Sandy Hook reference and provided it as a general location in Northeastern, N.J. I didn't know that Sandy Hook was not also a town. On Feb 13, 2012, at 11:52 PM, Pete Pete wrote: I agree with Mike, Daryl! I'm trying to imagine a scenario of a house on a ravine, a guy finding a rusty lump, and the wife persistently tries to throw the lump out in the garbage(?!) instead of simply heaving it over the fence? Doesn't track. Sounds like a scripted story. Like we say at work - The name's Tucker, not sucker! Pete No fence. (I asked as I was also bewildered). Reportedly found at the edge of an escarpment. The wife seems honest and was the one doing the sleuthing here. On Feb 14, 2012, at 3:15 AM, MexicoDoug wrote: A seemingly honest fellow from Sandy Hook, NJ came to my office late today in the hope I could verify what he was told could be a meteorite---and it is. are honestbut I just don't get it. Hi Darryl, Either you run with it or you give it back. But posting the pictures of the etch pattern should be pretty good evidence of some of the larger transported falls. Lots of explanations could account for the meteorite (the prior owner died and the rock stayed on the porch --- it's happened before ...etc.), but if we listen to Jefferson, while it would be easier to believe they are lying, the facts are what must be established. What do you have to lose? If you don't want to risk time and money, just see if they'll fax a release giving you permission to have it analyzed and just for your own protection slip in that they represent in good faith that the meteorite is their property and presented to you as an unknown for verification (which you mention is what gives them the right to have it analyzed since meteorites can be valuble)... Good luck, if it's a scam, bring it on. Let's see those pix...After all, no obvious match on the etch is great news no matter how you *slice* it. If the etch matches a large widely distributed fall, but they insisted and you wanted out,you could always offer to take a nice slice to pay your expenses in case it turns out to be common. Does that make sense? Kindest wishes Doug On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:45 PM, Darryl Pitt wrote: Folks, I need your help; there is a problem here---I'm just not certain as to its nature. A seemingly honest fellow from Sandy Hook, NJ came to my office late today in the hope I could verify what he was told could be a meteorite---and it is. This fellow said that just after he moved in a year ago, he found it on the embankment of his backyard just beyond which is a 75 foot escarpment. The wife said she tried to throw the rusty thing out a couple of times and both times he rescued it from the garbage. It is a medium octahedrite which weighs 4.236 kg. How do I know it's a medium octahedrite? I could make out a feint pattern underneath a veneer of rust on the cut face. Yes, roughly speaking, this fellow found a cut and prepared meteorite in his backyard. The fellow left the specimen in my possession and agreed to allow me to have a sample removed and forwarded for analysis. I advised him there could be a problem here that could be readily determined---and he didn't seem fazed. While I've been accused of being naive, I nonetheless genuinely believe he and his wife are honestbut I just don't get it. Any thoughts here? Northeastern New Jersey. End piece. Medium octahedrite. 4.2 kg. I'll get a pic posted tomorrow. All best and thanks / d, __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY....
Hi, I can't really see what the problem is as it is obviously a purchased or at least sawn end cut that has been left to rust...I can't see that it really matters where it was foundeven if the story is bogusas such I would have thought that it is very likely to match an existing meteorite and that will then dictate it's valueif it cannot be matched then that is when it gets difficult. Tracing it's history or story of it's terrestrial journey could be interesting. Graham On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com wrote: Mike... ---This is a meteorite ---No one has attempted to pass it off as a new find ---As conveyed in my original post, the finder agreed to submit a piece of testing ---I'm not as certain as you this will solve the issues presented---but it's a start Best /d On Feb 14, 2012, at 1:02 PM, Galactic Stone Ironworks wrote: Hi Michael and List, My thoughts exactly. It's either a strange meteorwrong, or it's a transported specimen being passed off as a new find. If the owner would submit a small piece for testing, that would solve the issue once and for all. Best regards, MikeG -- * Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone *** On 2/14/12, Michael Mulgrew mikest...@gmail.com wrote: What type of backyard equipment does this couple have that could produce such a perfect cut on an iron meteorite? Looks to me like a previously purchased iron left out to rust a bit. On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com wrote: Hi, Thanks, everyone, for the initial wave of responses both on and off list. I've clarified the following two points raised below and have taken a path similar to what Doug mentioned (also below). Hopefully our learning what meteorite this is will prove helpful. Please circulate as you deem appropriate. Here are the pics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/darrylpitt/ Best/ d On Feb 14, 2012, at 7:06 AM, John higgins wrote: Hi Folks, Sandy Hook is a national Park, regular civilians don't live there. There are no 75ft escarpments in Sandy Hook. Maybe if the guy said he was from Atlantic Highlands, that would make more sense. This story is full of holes, Daryl please be careful. Best Regards from New Jersey, John Higgins IMCA # 9822 www.outerspacerocks.com He is from Highlands, NJ near Sandy Hook. I remembered the Sandy Hook reference and provided it as a general location in Northeastern, N.J. I didn't know that Sandy Hook was not also a town. On Feb 13, 2012, at 11:52 PM, Pete Pete wrote: I agree with Mike, Daryl! I'm trying to imagine a scenario of a house on a ravine, a guy finding a rusty lump, and the wife persistently tries to throw the lump out in the garbage(?!) instead of simply heaving it over the fence? Doesn't track. Sounds like a scripted story. Like we say at work - The name's Tucker, not sucker! Pete No fence. (I asked as I was also bewildered). Reportedly found at the edge of an escarpment. The wife seems honest and was the one doing the sleuthing here. On Feb 14, 2012, at 3:15 AM, MexicoDoug wrote: A seemingly honest fellow from Sandy Hook, NJ came to my office late today in the hope I could verify what he was told could be a meteorite---and it is. are honestbut I just don't get it. Hi Darryl, Either you run with it or you give it back. But posting the pictures of the etch pattern should be pretty good evidence of some of the larger transported falls. Lots of explanations could account for the meteorite (the prior owner died and the rock stayed on the porch --- it's happened before ...etc.), but if we listen to Jefferson, while it would be easier to believe they are lying, the facts are what must be established. What do you have to lose? If you don't want to risk time and money, just see if they'll fax a release giving you permission to have it analyzed and just for your own protection slip in that they represent in good faith that the meteorite is their property and presented to you as an unknown for verification (which you mention is what gives them the right to have it analyzed since meteorites can be valuble)... Good luck, if it's a scam, bring it on. Let's see those pix...After all, no obvious match on the etch is great news no matter how you *slice* it. If the etch matches a large widely distributed fall, but they insisted and you wanted out,you could always offer to take a nice slice to pay your expenses in case it turns out to be common. Does that make sense? Kindest wishes Doug On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:45 PM, Darryl Pitt wrote: Folks, I need your help; there is a problem
[meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY...
Hi Darryl and List, Graham writes: Tracing its history or story of its terrestrial journey could be interesting Could you please measure the bandwidth - especially the bandwidth in the 7 o'clock and in the 2 o'clock positions. This could be a first step toward narrowing down what it might be, i.e. a medium octahedrite or a coarse octahedrite! Cheers, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY....
Hi, If the circumstances of the find are erroneous, then the question of rightful ownership and provenance arises. I personally think it's incumbent on us all to ask a lot of questions as it regards meteorite end pieces being found in a backyards. Best / Darryl On Feb 14, 2012, at 3:18 PM, Graham Ensor wrote: Hi, I can't really see what the problem is as it is obviously a purchased or at least sawn end cut that has been left to rust...I can't see that it really matters where it was foundeven if the story is bogusas such I would have thought that it is very likely to match an existing meteorite and that will then dictate it's valueif it cannot be matched then that is when it gets difficult. Tracing it's history or story of it's terrestrial journey could be interesting. Graham On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com wrote: Mike... ---This is a meteorite ---No one has attempted to pass it off as a new find ---As conveyed in my original post, the finder agreed to submit a piece of testing ---I'm not as certain as you this will solve the issues presented---but it's a start Best /d On Feb 14, 2012, at 1:02 PM, Galactic Stone Ironworks wrote: Hi Michael and List, My thoughts exactly. It's either a strange meteorwrong, or it's a transported specimen being passed off as a new find. If the owner would submit a small piece for testing, that would solve the issue once and for all. Best regards, MikeG -- * Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone *** On 2/14/12, Michael Mulgrew mikest...@gmail.com wrote: What type of backyard equipment does this couple have that could produce such a perfect cut on an iron meteorite? Looks to me like a previously purchased iron left out to rust a bit. On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com wrote: Hi, Thanks, everyone, for the initial wave of responses both on and off list. I've clarified the following two points raised below and have taken a path similar to what Doug mentioned (also below). Hopefully our learning what meteorite this is will prove helpful. Please circulate as you deem appropriate. Here are the pics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/darrylpitt/ Best/ d On Feb 14, 2012, at 7:06 AM, John higgins wrote: Hi Folks, Sandy Hook is a national Park, regular civilians don't live there. There are no 75ft escarpments in Sandy Hook. Maybe if the guy said he was from Atlantic Highlands, that would make more sense. This story is full of holes, Daryl please be careful. Best Regards from New Jersey, John Higgins IMCA # 9822 www.outerspacerocks.com He is from Highlands, NJ near Sandy Hook. I remembered the Sandy Hook reference and provided it as a general location in Northeastern, N.J. I didn't know that Sandy Hook was not also a town. On Feb 13, 2012, at 11:52 PM, Pete Pete wrote: I agree with Mike, Daryl! I'm trying to imagine a scenario of a house on a ravine, a guy finding a rusty lump, and the wife persistently tries to throw the lump out in the garbage(?!) instead of simply heaving it over the fence? Doesn't track. Sounds like a scripted story. Like we say at work - The name's Tucker, not sucker! Pete No fence. (I asked as I was also bewildered). Reportedly found at the edge of an escarpment. The wife seems honest and was the one doing the sleuthing here. On Feb 14, 2012, at 3:15 AM, MexicoDoug wrote: A seemingly honest fellow from Sandy Hook, NJ came to my office late today in the hope I could verify what he was told could be a meteorite---and it is. are honestbut I just don't get it. Hi Darryl, Either you run with it or you give it back. But posting the pictures of the etch pattern should be pretty good evidence of some of the larger transported falls. Lots of explanations could account for the meteorite (the prior owner died and the rock stayed on the porch --- it's happened before ...etc.), but if we listen to Jefferson, while it would be easier to believe they are lying, the facts are what must be established. What do you have to lose? If you don't want to risk time and money, just see if they'll fax a release giving you permission to have it analyzed and just for your own protection slip in that they represent in good faith that the meteorite is their property and presented to you as an unknown for verification (which you mention is what gives them the right to have it analyzed since meteorites can be valuble)... Good luck, if it's a scam, bring it on. Let's see those pix...After all, no obvious match on the etch is
Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY...
Hi, Marlin is going to clean and prepare the specimen and I'll provide the new pics after he has done so. Best / d On Feb 14, 2012, at 3:20 PM, Bernd V. Pauli wrote: Hi Darryl and List, Graham writes: Tracing its history or story of its terrestrial journey could be interesting Could you please measure the bandwidth - especially the bandwidth in the 7 o'clock and in the 2 o'clock positions. This could be a first step toward narrowing down what it might be, i.e. a medium octahedrite or a coarse octahedrite! Cheers, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY....
Hi Darryl, You have a challenging puzzle. Dr. Garvie had a similar problem and was fortunate to have list members recognize the meteorite by the shape of the cut face. Harvey Nininger did something similar with unidentified irons in Ward's collection. I hope that you can match this meteorite with a known sample. This is not the first known meteorite that has been treated ignominiously. The Red River meteorite was almost buried in Central Park http://peabody.yale.edu/collections/meteorites-and-planetary-science/red-riv er-meteorite . The Basket individual of Canyon Diablo was used to hold a basketball hoop in place http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/41069052.html . Are there any other meteorites that fell on hard times? Do you know anything about the history of the property where the meteorite was discovered? Did Henry Augustus Ward summer there? Peter -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Darryl Pitt Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 4:01 PM To: Graham Ensor Cc: Meteorite List Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY Hi, If the circumstances of the find are erroneous, then the question of rightful ownership and provenance arises. I personally think it's incumbent on us all to ask a lot of questions as it regards meteorite end pieces being found in a backyards. Best / Darryl On Feb 14, 2012, at 3:18 PM, Graham Ensor wrote: Hi, I can't really see what the problem is as it is obviously a purchased or at least sawn end cut that has been left to rust...I can't see that it really matters where it was foundeven if the story is bogusas such I would have thought that it is very likely to match an existing meteorite and that will then dictate it's valueif it cannot be matched then that is when it gets difficult. Tracing it's history or story of it's terrestrial journey could be interesting. Graham On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com wrote: Mike... ---This is a meteorite ---No one has attempted to pass it off as a new find ---As conveyed in my original post, the finder agreed to submit a piece of testing ---I'm not as certain as you this will solve the issues presented---but it's a start Best /d On Feb 14, 2012, at 1:02 PM, Galactic Stone Ironworks wrote: Hi Michael and List, My thoughts exactly. It's either a strange meteorwrong, or it's a transported specimen being passed off as a new find. If the owner would submit a small piece for testing, that would solve the issue once and for all. Best regards, MikeG -- * Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone *** On 2/14/12, Michael Mulgrew mikest...@gmail.com wrote: What type of backyard equipment does this couple have that could produce such a perfect cut on an iron meteorite? Looks to me like a previously purchased iron left out to rust a bit. On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com wrote: Hi, Thanks, everyone, for the initial wave of responses both on and off list. I've clarified the following two points raised below and have taken a path similar to what Doug mentioned (also below). Hopefully our learning what meteorite this is will prove helpful. Please circulate as you deem appropriate. Here are the pics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/darrylpitt/ Best/ d On Feb 14, 2012, at 7:06 AM, John higgins wrote: Hi Folks, Sandy Hook is a national Park, regular civilians don't live there. There are no 75ft escarpments in Sandy Hook. Maybe if the guy said he was from Atlantic Highlands, that would make more sense. This story is full of holes, Daryl please be careful. Best Regards from New Jersey, John Higgins IMCA # 9822 www.outerspacerocks.com He is from Highlands, NJ near Sandy Hook. I remembered the Sandy Hook reference and provided it as a general location in Northeastern, N.J. I didn't know that Sandy Hook was not also a town. On Feb 13, 2012, at 11:52 PM, Pete Pete wrote: I agree with Mike, Daryl! I'm trying to imagine a scenario of a house on a ravine, a guy finding a rusty lump, and the wife persistently tries to throw the lump out in the garbage(?!) instead of simply heaving it over the fence? Doesn't track. Sounds like a scripted story. Like we say at work - The name's Tucker, not sucker! Pete No fence. (I asked as I was also bewildered). Reportedly found at the edge of an escarpment. The wife seems honest and was the one doing the sleuthing here. On Feb 14, 2012,
[meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY...
Darryl wrote: Marlin is going to clean and prepare the specimen and I'll provide the new pics after he has done so. Peter just wrote: I hope that you can match this meteorite with a known sample It's chunky and blocky and some of its kamacite bands are a bit cloudy so it could be badly weathered Toluca! ... but let's wait and see! Cheers, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY...
Hi, Yes, several folks have thought Toluca...and me too. We'll see.;-) On Feb 14, 2012, at 4:09 PM, Bernd V. Pauli wrote: Darryl wrote: Marlin is going to clean and prepare the specimen and I'll provide the new pics after he has done so. Peter just wrote: I hope that you can match this meteorite with a known sample It's chunky and blocky and some of its kamacite bands are a bit cloudy so it could be badly weathered Toluca! ... but let's wait and see! Cheers, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NASA Reaches Higher With Fiscal Year 2013 Budget Request
Feb. 13, 2012 David Weaver Headquarters, Washington 202-358-1600 david.s.wea...@nasa.gov RELEASE: 12-051 NASA REACHES HIGHER WITH FISCAL YEAR 2013 BUDGET REQUEST WASHINGTON -- NASA announced Monday a $17.7 billion budget request for fiscal year 2013 supporting an ambitious program of space exploration that will build on new technologies and proven capabilities to expand America's reach into the solar system. Despite a constrained fiscal environment, the NASA FY13 budget continues to implement the space science and exploration program agreed to by President Obama and a bipartisan majority in Congress, laying the foundation for ground-breaking discoveries here on Earth and in deep space, including new destinations, such as an asteroid and Mars by 2035. This budget in-sources jobs, creates capabilities here at home -- and strengthens our workforce, all while opening the next great chapter in American exploration, NASA Administrator Charles Bolden said. And as we reach for new heights in space, we're creating new jobs right here on Earth, helping to support an economy that's built to last. The NASA budget includes $4 billion for space operations and $4 billion for exploration activities in the Human Exploration Operations mission directorate, including close-out of the Space Shuttle Program, and funding for the International Space Station, $4.9 billion for science, $669 million for space technology and $552 million for aeronautics research. This budget puts us on course to explore farther into space than ever before, revealing the unknown and fueling the nation's economy for years to come, Deputy Administrator Lori Garver said. We are committed to ensuring that our astronauts are once again launched from U.S. soil on American-made spacecraft, and this budget provides the funds to make this a reality. The budget supports NASA's continued work to develop the Space Launch System, a new heavy-lift rocket to carry astronauts to destinations such as an asteroid and Mars, and the Orion crew capsule in which they will travel. Included are resources for final preparation and manufacturing milestones for Orion's 2014 Exploration Flight Test 1 and preliminary design reviews of major Space Launch System elements. NASA has prioritized funding for its partnership with the commercial space industry to facilitate crew and cargo transport to the station. The $830 million for this work in the FY13 budget advances progress towards a vibrant space industry that will create well-paying, high-tech jobs to the U.S. economy, and reduce America's reliance on foreign systems. The budget also enhances use of the International Space Station to improve life on Earth and help make the next great leaps in scientific discovery and exploration. NASA's science budget supports a balanced portfolio of innovative science missions that will reach farther into our solar system, reveal unknown aspects of our universe, and provide critical data about our home planet. The agency will continue to develop and conduct critical tests on the James Webb Space Telescope leading to its planned launch in 2018. As the successor to Hubble Space Telescope, James Webb again will revolutionize our understanding of the universe. NASA also is developing an integrated strategy to ensure the next steps for the robotic Mars Exploration Program will support science as well as long-term human exploration goals. Space Technology work supported in the budget will drive advances in new high-payoff space technologies such as laser communications and zero-gravity propellant transfer, seeding innovation that will expand our capabilities in the skies and in space, supporting economic vitality, lowering the cost of other government and commercial space activities, and helping to create new jobs and expand opportunities for a skilled workforce. NASA supports its commitment to enhancing aviation safety and airspace efficiency, and reducing the environmental impact of aviation by helping to accelerate the nation's transition to the Next Generation Air Transportation System through investments in revolutionary concepts for air vehicles and air traffic management. The 2013 budget moves us forward into tangible implementation of a sustainable and affordable exploration program, NASA's Chief Financial Officer Elizabeth Robinson said. The NASA budget and supporting information are available at: http://www.nasa.gov/budget -end- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY....
Hi, Yes, the finder is checking out the record of previous home ownership in the immediate area. Thanks and all best / d On Feb 14, 2012, at 4:06 PM, Peter Scherff wrote: Hi Darryl, You have a challenging puzzle. Dr. Garvie had a similar problem and was fortunate to have list members recognize the meteorite by the shape of the cut face. Harvey Nininger did something similar with unidentified irons in Ward's collection. I hope that you can match this meteorite with a known sample. This is not the first known meteorite that has been treated ignominiously. The Red River meteorite was almost buried in Central Park http://peabody.yale.edu/collections/meteorites-and-planetary-science/red-riv er-meteorite . The Basket individual of Canyon Diablo was used to hold a basketball hoop in place http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/41069052.html . Are there any other meteorites that fell on hard times? Do you know anything about the history of the property where the meteorite was discovered? Did Henry Augustus Ward summer there? Peter -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Darryl Pitt Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 4:01 PM To: Graham Ensor Cc: Meteorite List Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY Hi, If the circumstances of the find are erroneous, then the question of rightful ownership and provenance arises. I personally think it's incumbent on us all to ask a lot of questions as it regards meteorite end pieces being found in a backyards. Best / Darryl On Feb 14, 2012, at 3:18 PM, Graham Ensor wrote: Hi, I can't really see what the problem is as it is obviously a purchased or at least sawn end cut that has been left to rust...I can't see that it really matters where it was foundeven if the story is bogusas such I would have thought that it is very likely to match an existing meteorite and that will then dictate it's valueif it cannot be matched then that is when it gets difficult. Tracing it's history or story of it's terrestrial journey could be interesting. Graham On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com wrote: Mike... ---This is a meteorite ---No one has attempted to pass it off as a new find ---As conveyed in my original post, the finder agreed to submit a piece of testing ---I'm not as certain as you this will solve the issues presented---but it's a start Best /d On Feb 14, 2012, at 1:02 PM, Galactic Stone Ironworks wrote: Hi Michael and List, My thoughts exactly. It's either a strange meteorwrong, or it's a transported specimen being passed off as a new find. If the owner would submit a small piece for testing, that would solve the issue once and for all. Best regards, MikeG -- * Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone *** On 2/14/12, Michael Mulgrew mikest...@gmail.com wrote: What type of backyard equipment does this couple have that could produce such a perfect cut on an iron meteorite? Looks to me like a previously purchased iron left out to rust a bit. On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com wrote: Hi, Thanks, everyone, for the initial wave of responses both on and off list. I've clarified the following two points raised below and have taken a path similar to what Doug mentioned (also below). Hopefully our learning what meteorite this is will prove helpful. Please circulate as you deem appropriate. Here are the pics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/darrylpitt/ Best/ d On Feb 14, 2012, at 7:06 AM, John higgins wrote: Hi Folks, Sandy Hook is a national Park, regular civilians don't live there. There are no 75ft escarpments in Sandy Hook. Maybe if the guy said he was from Atlantic Highlands, that would make more sense. This story is full of holes, Daryl please be careful. Best Regards from New Jersey, John Higgins IMCA # 9822 www.outerspacerocks.com He is from Highlands, NJ near Sandy Hook. I remembered the Sandy Hook reference and provided it as a general location in Northeastern, N.J. I didn't know that Sandy Hook was not also a town. On Feb 13, 2012, at 11:52 PM, Pete Pete wrote: I agree with Mike, Daryl! I'm trying to imagine a scenario of a house on a ravine, a guy finding a rusty lump, and the wife persistently tries to throw the lump out in the garbage(?!) instead of simply heaving it over the fence? Doesn't track. Sounds like a scripted story. Like we say at work - The
Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
Hi Don and List, I don't think you have offended anyone because you do raise a valid point about provenance that has been discussed at length previously on this List. I think the majority of people on the List consider you one of the good guys, so your input is always valued. I would just like to add a few things to the discussion that are not always readily apparent when talking about provenance. Yes, provenance is extremely important in meteorites and many other rare collectibles. Any time money is an issue, there will be scammers and unethical sellers. That is an unfortunate fact and meteorites are no different. Provenance is more important for certain types and falls. For example, very few collectors are concerned about the provenance of a Campo del Cielo iron. For one thing, they are extremely common. Secondly, they have a distinctive look that is hard to confuse. The same thing can be said for Sikhote Alin individuals - very common and very distinctive. Tatahouine diogenite is another good example - quite common and hard to mistake for something else. The list of meteorites that fall into this category of common and distinctive numbers into the hundreds. In cases such as these, provenance is less important as a tool to prove authenticity. Instead, provenance for these meteorites is a matter of family tree importance for those who like to know every step their common specimen has taken on it's road to it's final collection buyer. Where provenance is of the utmost importance is with very rare types that can closely resemble a more-common type. Or, if a specimen is a rare fall that happens to be a common petrologic type. Is that dark-crusted chondrite a Chergach, or is it a Pultusk? It's very hard for the majority of people to tell just by looking at the outside of the stone. Is a given micromount really a piece of Weston, or is it a piece of something more common (and far less valuable) like NWA 4526? In cases such as these, provenance is very important. I would hope that any dealer worth their salt, IMCA or not, would keep extensive records on where they acquire their specimens. I do, and I know many dealers who have files packed with information on where they bought every specimen, how much they paid for it, etc. However, some of this information should not be freely shared in a public forum for all eyes to see. Does a customer buying a Weston have a right to know where it came from? Yes, they do. Do rival dealers and curious onlookers with no intention of buying have that same right? In my opinion, no they do not. Many dealers take great pains to cultivate long-standing relationships with other dealers, wholesalers, and hunters. And for many dealers, selling meteorites is how they put food on the table, buy their medicine, pay their bills, and make a living. And as we all know, unfortunately, there is some petty back-stabbing behavior in the meteorite world. Some dealers, who shall remain unnamed, are chicken$hit and like nothing better than to stir up drama and talk smack behind others' backs - in an effort to defame another dealer, hurt their business, and lure away their customers. It happens. I can think of a very well-known and respected meteorite person who talks smack about me behind my back, but is too chicken to say those things to my face. Why does he say such things? (besides being mentally ill?) Because he doesn't like how I sell my micromounts and considers me a bottom feeder - not because I have ever engaged in any unethical practices, which I have not. If I exposed to the public all of my sources for material, this person would waste no time badmouthing me to all of my sources - possibly hurting my trading and possibly hurting my trading partners because those partners dare to do business with me. It is because of people like that, that I do not freely advertise on my website where I get all of my material. I wouldn't want my sources to become targets of this nutjob's ire simply because they sell to me. Having said that, if any customer of mine asks where I acquired a given specimen, I will freely tell that person and provide ID cards from my source and other provenance information. My track record in that regard speaks for itself. Anyone with photoshop and a printer can produce an official-looking COA or ID card. A man (or woman's) word is everything in this business and that means much more than a COA or ID card that is not worth the paper it is printed on. My word has always been solid and truthful, and I have scores of loyal customers who know that. I don't have an IMCA number and I don't have major institutions on my speed-dial list. But I do purchase from some sources who do have these things. And I will reveal those sources to any paying customer. I will NOT reveal those sources to Google, the non-buying public at large, or petty ex-rental car agents who feel it necessary to bad-mouth auction lots during a public auction because
[meteorite-list] just a few more Tucson Photos
Hi, My friend Carol Springer (popular local FM radio station DJ) took a bunch of photos. She's a huge meteorite fan and jumped at the chance to hang with bunch of nutty meteorite enthusiasts in Tucson. click here. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.332443106800748.80604.11051840137type=1l=8745cd3efc -- Rock On! Ruben Garcia Website: www.MrMeteorite.com Articles: www.meteorite.com/blog/ Videos: www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] (meteorobs) GA SC Bolide seems have produced a large rock
List, Plotting map of sighting reports just posted. Preliminary fall data will be posted in a few hours. Best, Dirk Ross...Tokyo http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2012/02/breaking-news-mbiq-detects-large-meteor.html --- On Wed, 2/15/12, Jim Wooddell nf11...@npgcable.com wrote: From: Jim Wooddell nf11...@npgcable.com Subject: Re: (meteorobs) GA SC Bolide seems have produced a large rock To: Meteor science and meteor observing meteor...@meteorobs.org Date: Wednesday, February 15, 2012, 7:18 AM Congrats to Stuart McDaniel and the Sandia/NMSU Sentinel All Sky Camera Network for the nice capture! DTG is 201213_06:42:47.831 UTC http://skysentinel.nmsu.edu/allsky/viewer/209655 Jim Wooddell - Original Message - From: drtanuki drtan...@yahoo.com To: Global Meteor Observing Forum meteor...@meteorobs.org Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 2:48 PM Subject: (meteorobs) GA SC Bolide seems have produced a large rock Dear list, GA SC Bolide seems have produced a large rock http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2012/02/breaking-news-mbiq-detects-large-meteor.html Dirk Ross...Tokyo ___ meteorobs mailing list meteor...@meteorobs.org http://lists.meteorobs.org/mailman/listinfo/meteorobs ___ meteorobs mailing list meteor...@meteorobs.org http://lists.meteorobs.org/mailman/listinfo/meteorobs __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Just a few more Tucson Photos
These photos are a blast! They capture the humane moments between the ones we've already seen and give us the feeling of having been there although some of us we were thousands of miles away from these events. Thank you, Carol and Ruben, for these precious moments! Cheers, Bernd __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NC SC GA Prelimary Fall Data posted
Dear List, The preliminary fall data and location is now posted. This information is subject to refinement. http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2012/02/breaking-news-mbiq-detects-large-meteor.html Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY....
Seeing as this is Valentine's Day, and the wife continually 'threw it out into the trash'perhaps the original owner thought he was giving a galactic gift and she felt scorned by simply making a statement Just a thought, comical and real at the same time. Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: Graham Ensor graham.en...@gmail.com To: Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com Cc: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 12:18 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY Hi, I can't really see what the problem is as it is obviously a purchased or at least sawn end cut that has been left to rust...I can't see that it really matters where it was foundeven if the story is bogusas such I would have thought that it is very likely to match an existing meteorite and that will then dictate it's valueif it cannot be matched then that is when it gets difficult. Tracing it's history or story of it's terrestrial journey could be interesting. Graham On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com wrote: Mike... ---This is a meteorite ---No one has attempted to pass it off as a new find ---As conveyed in my original post, the finder agreed to submit a piece of testing ---I'm not as certain as you this will solve the issues presented---but it's a start Best /d On Feb 14, 2012, at 1:02 PM, Galactic Stone Ironworks wrote: Hi Michael and List, My thoughts exactly. It's either a strange meteorwrong, or it's a transported specimen being passed off as a new find. If the owner would submit a small piece for testing, that would solve the issue once and for all. Best regards, MikeG -- * Galactic Stone Ironworks - Meteorites Amber Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone *** On 2/14/12, Michael Mulgrew mikest...@gmail.com wrote: What type of backyard equipment does this couple have that could produce such a perfect cut on an iron meteorite? Looks to me like a previously purchased iron left out to rust a bit. On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 6:42 AM, Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com wrote: Hi, Thanks, everyone, for the initial wave of responses both on and off list. I've clarified the following two points raised below and have taken a path similar to what Doug mentioned (also below). Hopefully our learning what meteorite this is will prove helpful. Please circulate as you deem appropriate. Here are the pics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/darrylpitt/ Best/ d On Feb 14, 2012, at 7:06 AM, John higgins wrote: Hi Folks, Sandy Hook is a national Park, regular civilians don't live there. There are no 75ft escarpments in Sandy Hook. Maybe if the guy said he was from Atlantic Highlands, that would make more sense. This story is full of holes, Daryl please be careful. Best Regards from New Jersey, John Higgins IMCA # 9822 www.outerspacerocks.com He is from Highlands, NJ near Sandy Hook. I remembered the Sandy Hook reference and provided it as a general location in Northeastern, N.J. I didn't know that Sandy Hook was not also a town. On Feb 13, 2012, at 11:52 PM, Pete Pete wrote: I agree with Mike, Daryl! I'm trying to imagine a scenario of a house on a ravine, a guy finding a rusty lump, and the wife persistently tries to throw the lump out in the garbage(?!) instead of simply heaving it over the fence? Doesn't track. Sounds like a scripted story. Like we say at work - The name's Tucker, not sucker! Pete No fence. (I asked as I was also bewildered). Reportedly found at the edge of an escarpment. The wife seems honest and was the one doing the sleuthing here. On Feb 14, 2012, at 3:15 AM, MexicoDoug wrote: A seemingly honest fellow from Sandy Hook, NJ came to my office late today in the hope I could verify what he was told could be a meteorite---and it is. are honestbut I just don't get it. Hi Darryl, Either you run with it or you give it back. But posting the pictures of the etch pattern should be pretty good evidence of some of the larger transported falls. Lots of explanations could account for the meteorite (the prior owner died and the rock stayed on the porch --- it's happened before ...etc.), but if we listen to Jefferson, while it would be easier to believe they are lying, the facts are what must be established. What do you have to lose? If you don't want to risk time and money, just see if they'll fax a release giving you permission to have it analyzed and just for your own protection slip in that they represent in good faith that the meteorite is their property and presented to you as an unknown for verification (which you mention is what gives them the right to have it analyzed since meteorites can be
[meteorite-list] SC Sonics Reports Map Gererated for 13FEB2012 Bolide Event
List, I have just completed and posted the sonics report map for the 13FEB2012 Bolide Event over SC. http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2012/02/breaking-news-mbiq-detects-large-meteor.html Dirk RossTokyo __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
Don M wrote: A provenance can be traced to the former owner and more questions can then be brought up on the specimens validity. Hi Don, Have you noticed lately we are seeing a number of dealers advertising spectacular falls in micro for weekl on the list? Every time I get excited just to see, Oh, another hammer job... not my cup of tea but delicious anyway. I noticed you had some very nice sub-gram material from Rob Elliot in your last advertised auctions on the list. Now, whenever someone buys a 3 gram specimen from poor Rob and takes the hammer to it, do we get included a free conversation with him that he gave a good deal on it to someone who then proceeded to smash it into a hundred pieces and now as the piece's grandpa has inherited the responsibility to take everyone by the hand, intelligent and not so much, to explain how the material was originally acquired from the BM? In my opinion, certainly not! The prime sources for this material can't be responsible for every atomic sized piece that falls off the end of a hammer when some buyer gets the idea he is going to be a meteorite speck dealer. I am not inferring you did the hammer maneuver, BTW, but even if you did, regardless of what I think about micros, it is a perfectly legal way to deal whether I like it or not and I have been tempted to bid on your auctions sometimes when they are larger. There can be a fine line between overdoing provenance as a marketing gimmick and using it, in the context of a dozen other factors to make an informed purchase. From your passion and enthusiasm, I suspect keeping provenance sacred is of prime importance. However, unfortunately the authorities to be still aren't issuing meteorite birth certificates, although some have come frightfully close as of late (frightfully, I say because this new strategy completely excludes me as a primary customer due to the price tag attached, all the while kilos are stockpiled for someone's self-directed retirement account. [Now, that I respect, but it strikes me as greedy - note to Doug: put this statement in the opinion section, you have no right to imply this is bad form until you, Doug, are faced with your own private Esquel]) I applaud your enthusiasm but do ask you to consider alternate situations which don't fit your concept of a meteorite passing from hand to hand in a neat little chain, since this is a very complicated can of sardines that doesn't lend itself to blanket statements. As we all know a chain is as strong as its weakest link, and if someone is dishonest it really becomes an issue for independent scientific verification - because then and only then - the stone must speak. No pile of papers unless photo documented in a Dewey decimal system is beyond a con artist's talent in this day and you must come to grips that sometimes asking to see the pier and stilt foundations of an old houseboat isn't going to happen, even while falling in love with the updated cabinetry in the kitchen! The bottom line is, the buyer has the right and obligation to his own wallet to make his own valuation and not lose his head in a speculative excitement. A set of provenance tags works in some cases, but in most cases it doesn't. That was intended to be more analytical than opinionated. Now let me give my opinion: Micros should *never* be purchased for a higher $/g rate than macro specimens. While I always wince when hearing how I must do something to guarantee the future of my children, if I could figure a way to do this, l would say the same thing. Maybe that's one of the non-scientific reasons I am so in love with the Tatahouine meteorite. When you break it - it's worth less, and it is refreshing to know that except for a few talented slicer folk out there experimenting with sections, most of the large pieces will be conserved for posterity, always convincingly recognizable, and this, because the market determined value the way *I said*. Ok, now I apologize, I understand I am lucky to be participating in the meteorite world and I have a debt of gratitude so great to all of my peers and giants before me, that I am not entitled to preach this thought to other good people doing an honest day's work. Kindest wishes Doug PS flame away ;-) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] provenance
Hmm Don Doug, if you have such concerns about provenance, you could easily avoid the sorrows. A meteorite is born, when it is published in the Bulletin. So be the second link in the chain. Buy NWAs from the main mass holder given in the Bulletin and Oman and new U.S.-desert finds from the finders listed there. Provenance at its best. That's the true revolution in pedigree-specimens-collecting. Not possible to that degree for 200 years. Be for following generations the seed leaf in the family tree of a meteorite. Best, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MexicoDoug Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. Februar 2012 02:26 An: dmerc...@rochester.rr.com; countde...@earthlink.net; jasonu...@gmail.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough Don M wrote: A provenance can be traced to the former owner and more questions can then be brought up on the specimens validity. Hi Don, Have you noticed lately we are seeing a number of dealers advertising spectacular falls in micro for weekl on the list? Every time I get excited just to see, Oh, another hammer job... not my cup of tea but delicious anyway. I noticed you had some very nice sub-gram material from Rob Elliot in your last advertised auctions on the list. Now, whenever someone buys a 3 gram specimen from poor Rob and takes the hammer to it, do we get included a free conversation with him that he gave a good deal on it to someone who then proceeded to smash it into a hundred pieces and now as the piece's grandpa has inherited the responsibility to take everyone by the hand, intelligent and not so much, to explain how the material was originally acquired from the BM? In my opinion, certainly not! The prime sources for this material can't be responsible for every atomic sized piece that falls off the end of a hammer when some buyer gets the idea he is going to be a meteorite speck dealer. I am not inferring you did the hammer maneuver, BTW, but even if you did, regardless of what I think about micros, it is a perfectly legal way to deal whether I like it or not and I have been tempted to bid on your auctions sometimes when they are larger. There can be a fine line between overdoing provenance as a marketing gimmick and using it, in the context of a dozen other factors to make an informed purchase. From your passion and enthusiasm, I suspect keeping provenance sacred is of prime importance. However, unfortunately the authorities to be still aren't issuing meteorite birth certificates, although some have come frightfully close as of late (frightfully, I say because this new strategy completely excludes me as a primary customer due to the price tag attached, all the while kilos are stockpiled for someone's self-directed retirement account. [Now, that I respect, but it strikes me as greedy - note to Doug: put this statement in the opinion section, you have no right to imply this is bad form until you, Doug, are faced with your own private Esquel]) I applaud your enthusiasm but do ask you to consider alternate situations which don't fit your concept of a meteorite passing from hand to hand in a neat little chain, since this is a very complicated can of sardines that doesn't lend itself to blanket statements. As we all know a chain is as strong as its weakest link, and if someone is dishonest it really becomes an issue for independent scientific verification - because then and only then - the stone must speak. No pile of papers unless photo documented in a Dewey decimal system is beyond a con artist's talent in this day and you must come to grips that sometimes asking to see the pier and stilt foundations of an old houseboat isn't going to happen, even while falling in love with the updated cabinetry in the kitchen! The bottom line is, the buyer has the right and obligation to his own wallet to make his own valuation and not lose his head in a speculative excitement. A set of provenance tags works in some cases, but in most cases it doesn't. That was intended to be more analytical than opinionated. Now let me give my opinion: Micros should *never* be purchased for a higher $/g rate than macro specimens. While I always wince when hearing how I must do something to guarantee the future of my children, if I could figure a way to do this, l would say the same thing. Maybe that's one of the non-scientific reasons I am so in love with the Tatahouine meteorite. When you break it - it's worth less, and it is refreshing to know that except for a few talented slicer folk out there experimenting with sections, most of the large pieces will be conserved for posterity, always convincingly recognizable, and this, because the market determined value the way *I said*. Ok, now I apologize, I understand I am lucky to be
Re: [meteorite-list] provenance
Martin wrote: you could easily avoid the sorrows ... Unfortunately, an NWA number is not the same as a named specimen to collectors that attach sentimental value to localities, there is no one size fits all rationale to valuing meteorites - it's a personal decision and your point is fine for those hot for NWAs but not to use gimmicks to say why one is better than the other ... the pendulum will swing the moment a marketeer can get a foot in the door to hock his jewels! Got any authentic French L'Aigle originals in that NWA series? Coordinates? Country? This is the first I've heard where someone feels an NWA number is better than a named locality when it comes from provenance, after all, the first owner is the earth who surrenders only to deserving beings, and then the rest is usually a bash that follows. A meteorite is born, when it is published in the Bulletin. That's a new one on me! So when we see the fall date, we can disregard that and just ask (Ed)ith, the Bulletin Meteorite mommy ;-) Just to be clear, you are of course right, as is Don, but sweeping statements of 'my meteorite is the best' are best held privately to avoid resurrecting Gavrilo Princip. Kindest wishes Doug __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] HELP PLEASE - PECULIAR METEORITE DISCOVERY....
The Leeds (Quebec) and Michigan iron turned out to be transported Toluca. Chris Spratt (Via my iPhone) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] provenance
I noticed that the price of recent falls has plummeted. Some were overpriced at several hundred dollars a gram for ordinary chondrites to begin with. Collector confidence in recent falls seems to be at an all time low due to a handful of bad people placing questionable material on the market. From what I was told by several dealers, they were having a very difficult time selling any falls, with the exception of the recent Martian fall, at the Tucson show this year. I now avoid high-priced falls and will no longer stock any. Once my very limited inventory of them is exhausted, I will not replace them. To me, they no longer represent a sound investment due to a few casting doubt on the rest of the good material. I will however continue to offer very rare finds, planetary material and a few very inexpensive witnessed falls. One exception might be the new Martian Fall once the price settles in since it is unique looking and would be hard for somebody to substitute bogus material for. The gemstone, artifact and other collectable markets have already been through this. I was given an estimate by an authenticator that over 40% of the artifacts listed on auctions these days are fakes. They call the people who sell them artifakers. I have had several artifacts killed (fail to paper) with different authentication firms so I know what it feels like to be taken. I go after these people who sold me fakes with a vengeance and usually succeed in getting a refund. There is little more that can be done. I am getting pretty good at spotting fake artifacts since there a lot of things to look for. Meteorites are a completely different game since many are very similar in appearance. Fortunately for artifacts and gemstones, there are a lot of decent authentication services available at reasonable costs (~US $25.00/item). Unfortunately for meteorite collectors, it takes a laboratory with expensive equipment and a highly educated staff to paper them. This places the burden on meteorite dealer's reputations which are being questioned more and more due to few unethical a-holes who do not care about everybody else, only themselves!@ Here is hoping for more positive discussion like finding that first North American lunar meteorite. Kind Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
Hi Don and list, Don I fully agree with you regarding the fact that All collectors and dealers should keep every single piece of provenance from the past history of who owned and sold the meteorite and I'm sure any Meteorite Dealer in good conscious would agree with you that provenance is very important and that we should all keep the paperwork, card or just a slip of paper or receipt from the previous seller for historical reasons and a good paper trail. I've bought many meteorites over the past 12 or so years that I've been collecting that I wish they had the original paperwork and bought many that had a copy of a card or label from a museum in Europe or America that was 30 or 40 years old or a new copy of the old card when I wished they had given me that old original card. Many I've purchased from a previous dealer had their card and the previous piece of paper, but many have only had a new card from the person that sold it to me with their card or laminated card. My best story to go along with your thoughts and mine too was a rare meteorite I purchased, small, but expensive that I purchased many years ago, then sold to a well known person, then they sold it to another well known dealer who sold it to another well known dealer and then I bought this same exact meteorite back and only got the card from the previous dealer. I thought it would have been wonderful and very nice if I had gotten back even my card and some of the old paperwork, but I assume that in our fast paced time and this age that most are trying to get their names out there and only want us to buy from them so that is why they are selling it with their new card so that we remember them and buy from them again and then if we pass it along then that next person will see their card and contact them for other meteorites instead of the previous sellers. I appreciate you bringing this up Don because now and in the future down the line I am going to try and concentrate more and more on asking any dealer for the previous paperwork for provenance of the sellers before them. I hope your post allows all collectors and dealers to hold onto all of the old paperwork because I think many of us collectors will be looking for old provenance down the road, and I know that I certainly will be demanding it. Have a great day and may a wonderful rare meteorite fall in your yard and all of our fellow collector's yards. Brian Cox Message: 9 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:22:08 -0500 From: Don Merchant dmerc...@rochester.rr.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough To: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net, jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com, Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Don Merchant dmerc...@rochester.rr.com Message-ID: 000301cceb34$cd2ce500$6501a8c0@donaldmerchant Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Hi Count and Kudos' to you! You bring up some very real and serious points. I hope I don't upset anyone with this post. I have this huge pet peeve of those that sell meteorites without listing, mentioning and or providing a Provenance on meteorites whether it be on eBay or their Websites.You don't go out and purchase a used car without asking for a car fax or asking questions before purchasing it, and so the same should also be done when interested in purchasing a meteorite from anyone, be it eBay or Dealer Website or any other form of Auctions. I refuse to purchase any meteorite from anyone without this provenance or at the lease asking the Seller on a meteorites history. As I have said before, meteorites don't grow on trees! They arrived in the Sellers possession from somewhere and or from someone other then those meteorites that have been found. Those meteorites found would most likely and better have been sent to a lab for testing and verification so as to start some form of provenance. I highly recommend to ALL Sellers/Collectors and Dealers to inquire the validity of meteorites they intend to purchase. SAVE this provenance label or paper of history so the next future buyer can have a copy of it for his or her records. I find it sloppy professionalism to those who can not provide provenance time and time again on meteorites they sell. Though an ID card helps...the truth is anyone can make up an ID card. A provenance can be traced to the former owner and more questions can then be brought up on the specimens validity. Consider it a blood line so to speak or family tree! Hope I did not offend anyone with my views. I am just trying to protect all of you and your collections including mine by enacting professional organized record keeping practices. - Original Message - From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net To: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com; Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
Re: [meteorite-list] provenance
buy your meteorites from respected dealers and collectors google any of the people on the wall of shame and you will find many problems. Avoid problem dealers and you will have no problems. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPad On Feb 14, 2012, at 9:03 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: I noticed that the price of recent falls has plummeted. Some were overpriced at several hundred dollars a gram for ordinary chondrites to begin with. Collector confidence in recent falls seems to be at an all time low due to a handful of bad people placing questionable material on the market. From what I was told by several dealers, they were having a very difficult time selling any falls, with the exception of the recent Martian fall, at the Tucson show this year. I now avoid high-priced falls and will no longer stock any. Once my very limited inventory of them is exhausted, I will not replace them. To me, they no longer represent a sound investment due to a few casting doubt on the rest of the good material. I will however continue to offer very rare finds, planetary material and a few very inexpensive witnessed falls. One exception might be the new Martian Fall once the price settles in since it is unique looking and would be hard for somebody to substitute bogus material for. The gemstone, artifact and other collectable markets have already been through this. I was given an estimate by an authenticator that over 40% of the artifacts listed on auctions these days are fakes. They call the people who sell them artifakers. I have had several artifacts killed (fail to paper) with different authentication firms so I know what it feels like to be taken. I go after these people who sold me fakes with a vengeance and usually succeed in getting a refund. There is little more that can be done. I am getting pretty good at spotting fake artifacts since there a lot of things to look for. Meteorites are a completely different game since many are very similar in appearance. Fortunately for artifacts and gemstones, there are a lot of decent authentication services available at reasonable costs (~US $25.00/item). Unfortunately for meteorite collectors, it takes a laboratory with expensive equipment and a highly educated staff to paper them. This places the burden on meteorite dealer's reputations which are being questioned more and more due to few unethical a-holes who do not care about everybody else, only themselves!@ Here is hoping for more positive discussion like finding that first North American lunar meteorite. Kind Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough
Hi Doug and List. I appreciate your thoughts and opinions Doug. I would like to add several things though to help clarify any misconceptions either based on my statements or yours. First the whole idea of provenance is NOT used as a gimmick to sell. It is only an assurance to the potential buyer that what your buying is as best an honest description that I can provide that the specimen is the real McCoy. When I started collecting many years ago you could check out all the meteorites for sale or up for auction on eBay in less then a half hour! Now at any one time there are over 6,000 meteorites available on eBay and they are not just from a hand full of Sellers/Dealers like the days of yore. Things have changed. The market has exploded due to the availability and awareness of a meteorites value. This in turn has increased the level of fraud to heights never before seen in this hobby. I am not saying a provenance is the answer that will 100% eliminate fraud or the misrepresentation of any meteorite or that the former owner should be held accountable if a particular meteorite is not what it was said to be. What I am saying is that a provenance can be used as a form of deterrent to those who commit fraud and misrepresentation of a specimen. I don't have the answer but I do know that I have been a victim of fraud in the past and am very careful who I deal with and always ask questions on the authenticity of a meteorite before I purchase. Anyone today who feels this is silly or a waste of time is totally ignorant. I am sure many reading this, have and will shop around by checking prices, quality, and the like on anything they buy when it comes to laying down a substantial amount of money, be it for a plasma TV, Car, House, etc. This includes meteorites. They are not always cheap. Imagine buying a meteorite for $1500 only to find out its worth $15! What do you do then. I wonder how many out there would dump it in their garden! My concern is it being passed on and ending up in my collection or even yours. How can this be controlled? We have zero, nothing in place to control this except the honesty of a Seller. Problem is we know all Sellers are not honest. Thus the reason I only deal with several of the top meteorite Dealers in the world because of their proven track record, honesty, and great record keeping. I consider them my Mentor, friends, and respect them to the utmost. * As far as speck dealer specks have been sold for as long as I can remember, especially when it comes to Martian and Lunar. I have never taken a hammer to single meteorite. My specimens that I do sell are cut with a diamond blade saw and all proper methods of cutting and preservation are taken into full account to provide the best specimens possible to a buyer. It was not long ago that meteorite collecting was ALWAYS presented as a rich mans hobby. Not everyone is born with a silver spoon in their mouth or fallen upon an inheritance in which they can afford 5, 10, 50, 100 gram rare meteorite specimens. I cater to the small guy collector, selling smaller pieces that are affordable to these little guy collectors. There are many that do this such as Greg Hupe, Michael Cottingham, and Mike Farmer to name a few. I have to believe that the many sales to the little guy collector are what helps put food on their table then the occasional big rich guy collector who buys 1 specimen every year or so from them. When I sell my specimens, I first have to put up a very large sum of money to acquire a very rare piece so that I can cut them into pieces that the little guy collector, including myself can afford who would otherwise never be able to acquire, except for the rich guy collector. It has always been a FACT that the smaller the piece the more you pay per gram ratio then the larger the piece per gram ratio, this due for one reason and one reason alone and that being cutting loss. I guess if I did use a hammer I could eliminate this loss and pass on the savings but I prefer instead to keep to preparing slices. I make very little after all is said and done with selling, so greed is not my style. Never has been never will be. In fact over the last several months I have been contemplating selling my entire collection and leaving the meteorite hobby all together. My passion lies in educating the new meteorite collector and new astronomer, thus the creation of my Website. To further my proof of not being greedy, I have seen other people charge monthly or yearly fees to post someone's website or graphic link on there website, yet I have many Dealer websites listed on mine and I don't charge a penny nor do I make a penny. In fact the many I have listed, don't even take the time to reciprocate and list me, let alone give me a discount when I purchase meteorites from them! So with that all said I am sorry I even brought up provenance. It just seems that anything brought up here on the list
Re: [meteorite-list] provenance ( AD in the PS)
Don wrote: I am sorry I even brought up provenance Hi Don. like I said, you had a few auctions I nearly jumped on and I definitely wasn't supposing anything about your high quality work. But when it gets hot in the kitchen the answer isn't to leave it; it's to make it better. My beef with this whole thing isn't with anyone in particular, you were just the messenger and everyone is in a different situation regarding what they know and what they are comfortable to disclose and people will do what that want. Depending on what someone is selling, the criteria of what constitutes Grade A Prime space rocks ''invariably change'. My beef is with the entire direction of the market and a feeling of powerlessness in it. How can I hide my feelings that if, for example today I want to accumulate my money for a large purchase rather than make several ones of lesser consequence, to stretch until it hurts and then some, just to have a choice piece in my collection, that I am forced to compete again others who have a completely different valuation procedure driving their decisions and effortlessly snatch it from my grasp since now in the meteorite world, killing the goose that lays the golden eggs actually works for them, but not me. Agh! The result is it is difficult to find these choice pieces even paying a premium, usually because I don't hear about them in time and they can't be sold and then are cut up, and I become frustrated. Keeping tabs on provenance is a great topic. the fact that it ruffles feathers only points toward it being a topic of extreme importance and I hope you aren't really too sorry about expressing your opinion - my only disagreement had nothing to do with the value of provenance, but rather ignoring other equally convincing factors regarding the dealing with authentic specimens in your personal purchase decisions to value it appropriately, since provenance isn't infallible either in the hands of some of the crooks on eBay we've seen. Maybe some day a magic tricorder will be pointed at meteorites, emit an eerie whirring sound and then have a readout of the meteorite's identification, like the keypad of a Meade Goto telescope, though calibration samples are guaranteed to be a beach ;-) When that day comes it will be a great day and I bet a lot of curators of museum collections will be among the first to line up to check their own provenances, just to be sure. Human error and neglect over the long haul is just as bad as dishonesty, and I am 100% with you on your strong opinion on the former. Good post, and please keep them coming. Kindest wishes Doug PS I'm going to try to sell a Wold Cottage Micro, 88 mg in a package deal with a 1787 King George III silver shilling (the shiny new coin that was used to gain admission to see the exhibit by Topham's curator on Picadilly, as the coins were not issued annually. If anyone wants to buy the coin/meteorite deal please contact me off list to save me a separate post which I haven't gotten around to doing for months. It has respectable provenance and the only reason I have it is because when I bought it it was written as 0.88 grams instead of 0.088 g (88 MG), which is below my collection threshold size). It may be 86 mg if I'm not recalling right but anyone interest I'll happily go find it and let you know! -Original Message- From: Don Merchant dmerc...@rochester.rr.com To: countdeiro countde...@earthlink.net; jasonutas jasonu...@gmail.com; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Cc: Don Merchant dmerc...@rochester.rr.com Sent: Wed, Feb 15, 2012 12:49 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough Hi Doug and List. I appreciate your thoughts and opinions Doug. I would like to add several things though to help clarify any misconceptions either based on my statements or yours. First the whole idea of provenance is NOT used as a gimmick to sell. It is only an assurance to the potential buyer that what your buying is as best an honest description that I can provide that the specimen is the real McCoy. When I started collecting many years ago you could check out all the meteorites for sale or up for auction on eBay in less then a half hour! Now at any one time there are over 6,000 meteorites available on eBay and they are not just from a hand full of Sellers/Dealers like the days of yore. Things have changed. The market has exploded due to the availability and awareness of a meteorites value. This in turn has increased the level of fraud to heights never before seen in this hobby. I am not saying a provenance is the answer that will 100% eliminate fraud or the misrepresentation of any meteorite or that the former owner should be held accountable if a particular meteorite is not what it was said to be. What I am saying is that a provenance can be used as a form of deterrent to those who commit fraud
