[meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
Today's Meteorite Picture of the Day: Zapaliname Contributed by: Hanno Strufe http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpod.asp __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Here 'tis http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2002M%26PSB..375S - Original Message - From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
You sure hit the nail on the head, Adam. Things sure have changed over the last few years. Jim Strope 421 4th Street Glen Dale, WV. 26038 Sent from my iPad On Dec 2, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
What a messwe're living during the transformation of elected representative government by the people to a appointed governing that is closer to what our founders escaped than the freedom we grew up with. How is it that laws can be made by decree and regulation? (The rhetorical question is simply answered...the encroachment of seemingly good intentions designed to protect us from ourselves will eventually ruin our freedom entirely.) What a mess. Let's consider the other side of the coin: since we know that meteorites belong to the landowners upon which they fall, we should all own what we find since we own the public land, not a government. And thus by extension, (through any parallel of mining law, forestry, natural resource extraction etc.) this new decree of regulating a single aspect of what is found and developed on public land is an unequitable and selective application. What a mess The largest question is private property rights: Even with the 10lb/year limit imposed by the this BLM decree, it is unacceptable that a government entity has any jurisdiction over any subsequent exchange, monetary or otherwise. Let's keep a sharp eye on it. HUGE thanks to Nick for taking the initiative. -Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: Jim Strope fa...@yahoo.com To: meteorite central meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy You sure hit the nail on the head, Adam. Things sure have changed over the last few years. Jim Strope 421 4th Street Glen Dale, WV. 26038 Sent from my iPad On Dec 2, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
I have been warning for years that making meteorites into treasure for TV or media purposes would lead to the meteorite hunting downfall. History is repeating itself. It happened with relic hunters, coin-shooters and fossil finders because they became known as treasure hunters due to the popular press. A few got there 15-minutes of fame and everybody else paid for it! Treasure hunting as a wholesome hobby that could have been enjoyed by generations of family members has never recovered. It is now completely off-limits on BLM land and so too will be meteorite hunting now that they are antiques. Everything on Earth could be considered an antique using Schmitt's reasoning. Just wait until the next version of their meteorite recovery policy. And to think a poorly written paper by a Canadian and some fleeting moments of fame for a few could influence American law. Happy Hunting, Adm - Original Message - From: Richard Montgomery rickm...@earthlink.net To: Jim Strope fa...@yahoo.com; meteorite central meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy What a messwe're living during the transformation of elected representative government by the people to a appointed governing that is closer to what our founders escaped than the freedom we grew up with. How is it that laws can be made by decree and regulation? (The rhetorical question is simply answered...the encroachment of seemingly good intentions designed to protect us from ourselves will eventually ruin our freedom entirely.) What a mess. Let's consider the other side of the coin: since we know that meteorites belong to the landowners upon which they fall, we should all own what we find since we own the public land, not a government. And thus by extension, (through any parallel of mining law, forestry, natural resource extraction etc.) this new decree of regulating a single aspect of what is found and developed on public land is an unequitable and selective application. What a mess The largest question is private property rights: Even with the 10lb/year limit imposed by the this BLM decree, it is unacceptable that a government entity has any jurisdiction over any subsequent exchange, monetary or otherwise. Let's keep a sharp eye on it. HUGE thanks to Nick for taking the initiative. -Richard Montgomery - Original Message - From: Jim Strope fa...@yahoo.com To: meteorite central meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy You sure hit the nail on the head, Adam. Things sure have changed over the last few years. Jim Strope 421 4th Street Glen Dale, WV. 26038 Sent from my iPad On Dec 2, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
My two cents on part of this topic: I think part of the problem we're having is that there is not enough clout or lobby for our hobby/industry. The BLM can easily ignore various individual emails/demands but it's harder to ignore a petition or lobby of several hundred people together, especially if they have media attention. If others are interested, I think we should start up a petition at charge . org or one of the other petition websites. Gather enough signatures/attention and soon others can't afford to ignore you. Anyone interested in the wording or writing of the petition should email me privately and we can see if we can get something together. Sincerely, Yinan On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Jim Strope fa...@yahoo.com wrote: You sure hit the nail on the head, Adam. Things sure have changed over the last few years. Jim Strope 421 4th Street Glen Dale, WV. 26038 Sent from my iPad On Dec 2, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
From my perspective, I think we ought not to go off half-cocked. Apparently, that is what the BLM has done, and it has gotten no one anywhere. But note what Schmitt has written on page B6, paragraph 3: Most Western European countries... have civil codes laying down principles of law under which meteorites are owned by the landowner as long as they have acceded to the land. A meteorite resting on the surface is, arguably, owned by the finder taking possession of it, subject to trespass issues. Read this carefully! I think it would be worthwhile to first do a profile on Schmitt. Solicitors present arguments and opinions, they do not conduct scientific and sociological investigations of the subject. Perhaps we need a societal and cultural perspective on the issue? Who were his 20 informants? As an anthropologist, his investigation falls way short of unbiased research. What relevance is Schmitt's Canadian opinion to US Law? Have we learned nothing in ten years? Since then the public has become better informed, the public has made major contributions, and the scientific community has expanded to include collectors, educators and dealers... Perhaps it's time for another scholarly article based upon scientific evidence to be submitted to the Meteoritics and Planetary Science? One that contains statistics on how many meteorites are recovered by each section of the community, the costs of hunting, sales and trades among scientific organizations, etc. Maybe we should take time to document our experiences with the BLM and meet at Tucson to draft a response? Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] on behalf of Yinan Wang [veom...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 1:49 PM To: Jim Strope Cc: meteorite central Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy My two cents on part of this topic: I think part of the problem we're having is that there is not enough clout or lobby for our hobby/industry. The BLM can easily ignore various individual emails/demands but it's harder to ignore a petition or lobby of several hundred people together, especially if they have media attention. If others are interested, I think we should start up a petition at charge . org or one of the other petition websites. Gather enough signatures/attention and soon others can't afford to ignore you. Anyone interested in the wording or writing of the petition should email me privately and we can see if we can get something together. Sincerely, Yinan On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Jim Strope fa...@yahoo.com wrote: You sure hit the nail on the head, Adam. Things sure have changed over the last few years. Jim Strope 421 4th Street Glen Dale, WV. 26038 Sent from my iPad On Dec 2, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hi there Nick, But note what Schmitt has written on page B6, paragraph 3: Most Western European countries... have civil codes laying down principles of law under which meteorites are owned by the landowner as long as they have acceded to the land. An astonishing statement. As much as I investigated laws, in all the years I was able to find so far only 3 (three) European laws, explicitly giving meteorites in their wordings. Denmark (where the museum has to decide, whether it is a Dannekrae - in that case the finder gets a reward (in practice the museum is buying the stone from the finder). Else he can keep it. And the question of the landowner is not mentioned.) Poland (came later than Schmidt. No ownership questions. Meteorites (national and international) ones need an export permit). Slovakia (finder has to announce it to the local environment agency and gets a title as finder. If he then doesn't hear for (would have to look up again) more than 3 months nothing again from that office, he is the owner. Else he gets a reward of 10% of the market value). As stated here so often, also the piece of information Schmitt gave about Switzerland and New Zealand is incorrect, and the piece of information about India doubtful (if you read the Indian constitution still in place and certainly over-ruling administrative orders from the colonial times). All in all I came to the conclusion, that Schmitt hasn't read most of the laws (if he gives the §§) at all, neither he investigated the reports, he received from third parties (obviously legal laypeople), whether they are wrong or true. Meteorites are a too rare and exotic thing, that they would enter written law in Western Europe countries. The question mainly is, what for a res a meteorite is legally, in which drawers you can sort them, the individual laws of each country allow. If I reckon meteorites among narcotics or to explosives, then certainly there are certain restrictions. Nothing else makes Schmitt. Btw. his far-fetched interpretation of the UN-convention of 1970, if you use exactly the same method of generous ellipsis in quoting, like Schmitt did, You'll find, that e.g. bananas are protected moveable cultural heritage. Additional, thanks god, in all countries here in Western Europe in case a court has to decide, what for an object a meteorite is in meaning of the national law, and not Mr.Schmitt. Well, if I as a complete and brute layman am able to a) find the individual laws and b) to read and to understand them, then I dare to say, that Schmitt's work is bs. (pardon me). What relevance is Schmitt's Canadian opinion Not Schmitt, but google is the enemy. Unfortunately the first hits delivered for a query for laws and meteorites lead directly to Schmitt's bad paper. (Even more unfortunately, that it was published (and even more and more unfortunately not peer-reviewed) in the official organ of the meteoritical society, MAPS.) So whenever a journalist seeks a story around a new fall, he will read Schmitt's paper. So unwantedly Schmitt is the reason, that some of my neighbours could look at me like a member of a drug or weapon dealers cartel, because some lousy clowns in NYT or BBC, as it happened, jumped from Schmitt's stuff to the conclusions necessary to make a story, where no story is. Perhaps it's time for another scholarly article.. Good idea, but a scientist or even better a meteoricist has to write that. Hunters, dealers and collectors are not regarded to be part of the academic world, their opinion therefore is not interesting and their expertise doubtful. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 21:01 An: Yinan Wang; Jim Strope Cc: meteorite central Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Wichtigkeit: Hoch From my perspective, I think we ought not to go off half-cocked. Apparently, that is what the BLM has done, and it has gotten no one anywhere. But note what Schmitt has written on page B6, paragraph 3: Most Western European countries... have civil codes laying down principles of law under which meteorites are owned by the landowner as long as they have acceded to the land. A meteorite resting on the surface is, arguably, owned by the finder taking possession of it, subject to trespass issues. Read this carefully! I think it would be worthwhile to first do a profile on Schmitt. Solicitors present arguments and opinions, they do not conduct scientific and sociological investigations of the subject. Perhaps we need a societal and cultural perspective on the issue? Who were his 20 informants? As an anthropologist, his investigation falls way short of unbiased research. What relevance is Schmitt's Canadian opinion to US Law? Have we learned nothing in ten years? Since then the public has become better informed, the public
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy (Swaziland)
Btw. by far the best of the coolest meteorite laws I found in Swaziland! Wait it's only a little bit complicate, but let me give you a summary: - Collecting of meteorites in National Parks is forbidden. - The removing and exportation of a meteorite needs the permission of the National Trust Committee. -Remains the National Trust Committee inactive, then you can address the Deputy Prime minister for issuing the permit. - Refuses the National Trust Committee the permit, then the Deputy Prime Minister is allowed to issue the permit. - Refuses the Deputy Prime Minister the permit, then the National Committee is allowed to give the permit and to commend the Deputy Prime Minister to issue it. - Refuses the Deputy Prime Minister and the National Trust Committee as well the permit, then you can object. - The Deputy Prime Minister needs for that maneuver the approval of the Ngwenyama - The Deputy Prime Minister is entitled to purchase the meteorite, if he wants. (Swaziland has 1 meteorite). ;-) Martin __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
TV entertainers and press-chasers have publicly turned looking for meteorites into a treasure hunt complete with grossly inflated price-tags to attract viewership. This is the same tired but effective method that the lame Antique Roadshow has used for over a decade. Perhaps these entertainers can use their media influence to correct their wrongs or at the very least apologize to the meteorite collecting community for knowingly attracting the wrong kind of attention. A lot of people including these BLM employees do not realize there is a difference between TV entertainment and reality. It finally reached the point people have learned the prices quoted on the Antique Show are bogus when they go to market an item. Since meteorites are now considered treasure and antiques, perhaps we could learn something from England's treasure trove laws. The Government there has to bid on the items if they truly want to protect them. I think non-essential BLM jobs should be cut if these public servants are keeping themselves busy reading and acting upon Schmitt's crap or believe what they see on TV. They should start with the personal that took it upon themselves to act as spokespeople for the rest of the public with the Meteorite Recover Act of 2012. Enough from me, I am angry over the this poor situation brought on by thoughtless people. Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] (AD) FINAL METEORITES FORSALE
Art. Please stop this or at least tell us why it's ok. Thanks, Bill Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 16:12:58 -0600 From: chicagosteve1...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] (AD) FINAL METEORITES FORSALE Hello again list. The 294 gram and the 140 gram stones were sold. But I have a 187 gram unclassed stone with jet black contraction cracked fusion crust 75% $350 obo, a 46 gram oriented unclassed stone $50, another 17 gram unclassed stone $25,nwa 1685 5.9 gram endcut,, $75 (im surprised this one has not gone yet), and finally a 135 gram 94% crusted black unclassed stone $200 obo. That is it. No more to sell. All offers off list with free shipping. -- Steve R. Anold, chicago, ill. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
I think, you're beating the wrong ones. These, you're thinking to be responsible due to their media presence are not so mighty, to create new laws and regulations. Btw. look it up in old magazines, even Saint Nininger was posing with meteorites in the press and as a hunter, where of course also price tags were blinking through the headlines, and no restrictions followed. Neither in many countries, where meteorites were no topic at all in media, decades ago, when there a strict legislation was newly introduced. And what is wrong to pose with exciting pieces (and monetary values) in public? I know even two brothers, everywhere highlighting a large piece of the Moon... ;-) If everything which is good, expensive, loveable and fascinating would have to be concealed, for the fear, that there could be some administrative dabblers immediately trying to forbid them, I guess I, neither you wouldn't want to live in a world like that. Honestly, I have rather a problem, that there are extra-taxes on coffee (gosh here the pound is now 7$, that's unfair.). And strange it is, that the states are the largest profiteers in drug dealing. Tobacco, alcohol, gambling.. And be glad. Those new BLM-rules are by far not so strict like laws are in other countries (which weren't that much noticed in the western navel-gazing), so as harmful (and ahistorical) and stupid (ask the Ngweyama, I guess with his 12 wives, he has work enough, than to care with the Deputy Prime Minister for possible meteorites) the new rules are for former meteorite nation #1, you got off still relatively lightly. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 22:46 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy TV entertainers and press-chasers have publicly turned looking for meteorites into a treasure hunt complete with grossly inflated price-tags to attract viewership. This is the same tired but effective method that the lame Antique Roadshow has used for over a decade. Perhaps these entertainers can use their media influence to correct their wrongs or at the very least apologize to the meteorite collecting community for knowingly attracting the wrong kind of attention. A lot of people including these BLM employees do not realize there is a difference between TV entertainment and reality. It finally reached the point people have learned the prices quoted on the Antique Show are bogus when they go to market an item. Since meteorites are now considered treasure and antiques, perhaps we could learn something from England's treasure trove laws. The Government there has to bid on the items if they truly want to protect them. I think non-essential BLM jobs should be cut if these public servants are keeping themselves busy reading and acting upon Schmitt's crap or believe what they see on TV. They should start with the personal that took it upon themselves to act as spokespeople for the rest of the public with the Meteorite Recover Act of 2012. Enough from me, I am angry over the this poor situation brought on by thoughtless people. Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Martin, I don't see how I can be wrong when I am basically quoting what was stated the Meteorite Recovery Act. I avoid the press and have turned down more interviews that I have accepted. If the first question out of a reporters' mouth is how much is it worth?, I usually end the interview. When we are talking about a key piece, I will quote a price so that they do not try to appraise the piece themselves which has happened numerous times in the past. I find it best to avoid the media. It states right in the Recovery policy that recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion Here is the exact context: However, recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion about the legality of and limits to casual and commercial collection. Courts have long established that meteorites belong to the owner of the surface estate. - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy I think, you're beating the wrong ones. These, you're thinking to be responsible due to their media presence are not so mighty, to create new laws and regulations. Btw. look it up in old magazines, even Saint Nininger was posing with meteorites in the press and as a hunter, where of course also price tags were blinking through the headlines, and no restrictions followed. Neither in many countries, where meteorites were no topic at all in media, decades ago, when there a strict legislation was newly introduced. And what is wrong to pose with exciting pieces (and monetary values) in public? I know even two brothers, everywhere highlighting a large piece of the Moon... ;-) If everything which is good, expensive, loveable and fascinating would have to be concealed, for the fear, that there could be some administrative dabblers immediately trying to forbid them, I guess I, neither you wouldn't want to live in a world like that. Honestly, I have rather a problem, that there are extra-taxes on coffee (gosh here the pound is now 7$, that's unfair.). And strange it is, that the states are the largest profiteers in drug dealing. Tobacco, alcohol, gambling.. And be glad. Those new BLM-rules are by far not so strict like laws are in other countries (which weren't that much noticed in the western navel-gazing), so as harmful (and ahistorical) and stupid (ask the Ngweyama, I guess with his 12 wives, he has work enough, than to care with the Deputy Prime Minister for possible meteorites) the new rules are for former meteorite nation #1, you got off still relatively lightly. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 22:46 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy TV entertainers and press-chasers have publicly turned looking for meteorites into a treasure hunt complete with grossly inflated price-tags to attract viewership. This is the same tired but effective method that the lame Antique Roadshow has used for over a decade. Perhaps these entertainers can use their media influence to correct their wrongs or at the very least apologize to the meteorite collecting community for knowingly attracting the wrong kind of attention. A lot of people including these BLM employees do not realize there is a difference between TV entertainment and reality. It finally reached the point people have learned the prices quoted on the Antique Show are bogus when they go to market an item. Since meteorites are now considered treasure and antiques, perhaps we could learn something from England's treasure trove laws. The Government there has to bid on the items if they truly want to protect them. I think non-essential BLM jobs should be cut if these public servants are keeping themselves busy reading and acting upon Schmitt's crap or believe what they see on TV. They should start with the personal that took it upon themselves to act as spokespeople for the rest of the public with the Meteorite Recover Act of 2012. Enough from me, I am angry over the this poor situation brought on by thoughtless people. Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list
[meteorite-list] Ad - Holbrook 100 Year Medal - Just in Time for Christmas
Hello all - After months of getting it ready to present, I am pleased to announce: http://www.nakhladogmeteorites.com/catalog/holcoin.htm It serves as a hunting map! It contains material recovered ON the 100 year anniversary And it fits nicely into a stocking I will fill orders through the week and ship next weekend well in time for Christmas Rob Wesel -- Nakhla Dog Meteorites www.nakhladogmeteorites.com www.facebook.com/Nakhla.Dog.Meteorites www.facebook.com/Rob.Wesel -- We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of the dreams. Willy Wonka, 1971 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] test 3
Works great, Martin! :) Best Regards, Greg Greg Hupé The Hupé Collection gmh...@centurylink.net www.LunarRock.com NaturesVault (eBay Facebook) http://www.facebook.com/NaturesVault IMCA 3163 Click here for my current eBay auctions: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault -Original Message- From: Martin Goff Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 5:32 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] test 3 Test 3 -- Martin Goff www.msg-meteorites.co.uk IMCA #3387 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hi Adam, You wouldn't have done wrong neither, if you would have told a price. When it is about ownership, and you are the owner, and living in a free and democratic state of law, it's not the business of the state (at best only if you sell it, regarding taxes). There are endless things, objects, estates, which have a monetary high value. However, recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion about the legality of and limits to casual and commercial collection. Courts have long established that meteorites belong to the owner of the surface estate. That is a set phrase. Replace meteorites by bananas. A new regulation needs a justification. That one is a weak one, but better than to say, well we wanted to avoid the impression, that we're twirling our thumbs all the day forour salaries. (That increased public interest was btw. the goal by the U.S. representative in the U.N. working group on meteorites.) Courts? Which one, that - can't recall it, that case of 1906, where a meteorite was subdued under the antiquities act? And Lorton. And one case of the 40s. Right? 3 court decisions in hundred years within a people of 300 millions. What an urge, to bring up a new law, - a happy people, which has no other problems... Btw. That really some protagonists reckon meteorites among culture is the major problem. (uh just read a while ago on web, that Botswana claims to have their cultural heritage back, the biggest lunar Kalahai 009 and asked the university muenster for it). I fear, that can happen only, because such people haven't learned, what culture is. Well, I have no idea about your legal system, whether precedents are binding for judges. In my country it's not so, a court decides case by case. So here it would be easy to challenge, whether a meteorite is an antiquity. Well, and the question, whether a fallen meteorite is genuine part of the land. (in the Neuschwanstein case, the court decided: no.) S, if it was established long ago in your country, that meteorites are part of the land, not falling under the exception to be a rock, to be allowed to be collected from public land and possessed by the finder without permission, then anyway every meteorite found on public land before was already illegally possessed (until lapse of time comes in effect). Now you're allowed only to pick them up for personal use, but allowed, an US-lunar rock in the flush reservoir to reduce water consumption, for the flower bed, doorstop... And if it's too large, bad luck, you have to let it rot there, wher you found it. Whether there is any public interest in such stone not to be found in future, ...well, I'm not an expert. It's of course a big pity, when I think, how long the US-hunters have to hunt and to work, until they finally find something better than an old chondrite. An Eucrite, or even such an exciting sensation like the CM1. - In future I guess, you won't have such finds anymore. Economically it never was rewarding to hunt non-falls in the U.S., so I doubt, that the known hunter heroes will carry on, if the possibility is taken away, that at least a part of their expenses can be recovered with one or two good finds within several years. Look, we witnessed, how and why Australia disappeared from the meteoritic globe. Tragically not understandably. But in Australia are living happy people too! Why.., because - how many people are interested in meteorites in that whole wide World? A couple of few thousands. So the world will keep spinning on. Anyway, How many % of the surface of the U.S. are BLM land? Isn't there private land enough left on your huge continent to hunt on and to hope the next fresh fall will land on? Maybe now, where capitalism is wiped out in BLM meteoritics it could be a nice additional field for Dr.Harvey et al. - not so exotic, but also not so expensive like Antarctica. And due to the lack of personnel (and experience in hot deserts), Maybe they will say: I hired a contract hunter! SkolGood Night America! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 23:40 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Martin, I don't see how I can be wrong when I am basically quoting what was stated the Meteorite Recovery Act. I avoid the press and have turned down more interviews that I have accepted. If the first question out of a reporters' mouth is how much is it worth?, I usually end the interview. When we are talking about a key piece, I will quote a price so that they do not try to appraise the piece themselves which has happened numerous times in the past. I find it best to avoid the media. It states right in the Recovery policy that recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion Here is the exact context:
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Martin, is coffee a total cost of $7 per pound or are the taxes $7 per pound? If it is ONLY $7 per pound total cost, being a coffee drinker, I may consider moving to Germany, as we pay $9 to $11 per 12 ounces, plus sales tax, in most States of the USA! A meteorite should not be considered an artifact unless it is found in a Native American site or early American site. They are rocks, 99%+ never used by early man. Glorious rocks, but rocks none the less. If you find a rock on BLM land, other then petrified wood or fossils, you can haul it away even if it weighs 499 pounds. The petrified wood limit is 250 pounds per year per person. As for rocks, no permit is needed on BLM land UNLESS you want to mine for minerals. Picking up a rock, by hand, on the surface is not mining. Sign me up to end this new ruling by our lord and master, the BLM. Fred Hall I think, you're beating the wrong ones. These, you're thinking to be responsible due to their media presence are not so mighty, to create new laws and regulations. Btw. look it up in old magazines, even Saint Nininger was posing with meteorites in the press and as a hunter, where of course also price tags were blinking through the headlines, and no restrictions followed. Neither in many countries, where meteorites were no topic at all in media, decades ago, when there a strict legislation was newly introduced. And what is wrong to pose with exciting pieces (and monetary values) in public? I know even two brothers, everywhere highlighting a large piece of the Moon... ;-) If everything which is good, expensive, loveable and fascinating would have to be concealed, for the fear, that there could be some administrative dabblers immediately trying to forbid them, I guess I, neither you wouldn't want to live in a world like that. Honestly, I have rather a problem, that there are extra-taxes on coffee (gosh here the pound is now 7$, that's unfair.). And strange it is, that the states are the largest profiteers in drug dealing. Tobacco, alcohol, gambling.. And be glad. Those new BLM-rules are by far not so strict like laws are in other countries (which weren't that much noticed in the western navel-gazing), so as harmful (and ahistorical) and stupid (ask the Ngweyama, I guess with his 12 wives, he has work enough, than to care with the Deputy Prime Minister for possible meteorites) the new rules are for former meteorite nation #1, you got off still relatively lightly. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 22:46 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy TV entertainers and press-chasers have publicly turned looking for meteorites into a treasure hunt complete with grossly inflated price-tags to attract viewership. This is the same tired but effective method that the lame Antique Roadshow has used for over a decade. Perhaps these entertainers can use their media influence to correct their wrongs or at the very least apologize to the meteorite collecting community for knowingly attracting the wrong kind of attention. A lot of people including these BLM employees do not realize there is a difference between TV entertainment and reality. It finally reached the point people have learned the prices quoted on the Antique Show are bogus when they go to market an item. Since meteorites are now considered treasure and antiques, perhaps we could learn something from England's treasure trove laws. The Government there has to bid on the items if they truly want to protect them. I think non-essential BLM jobs should be cut if these public servants are keeping themselves busy reading and acting upon Schmitt's crap or believe what they see on TV. They should start with the personal that took it upon themselves to act as spokespeople for the rest of the public with the Meteorite Recover Act of 2012. Enough from me, I am angry over the this poor situation brought on by thoughtless people. Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hi Fred, Artifact would imply that your legislative authorities do believe in the existence of highly developed aliens somewhere between Mars and Jupiter. Maybe we can make here on the list a little collection to donate some more modern books than those of Percival Lowell to the Library of Congress, that this assumption has turned out to be unlikely. Uh coffee was perhaps a bad example - the prices for gasoline, energy, housing, meat will bring you immediately back! Can I sign too as non-citizen? Good night, (have to take my pills, was too talkative...) Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: h...@meteorhall.com [mailto:h...@meteorhall.com] Gesendet: Montag, 3. Dezember 2012 00:32 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Martin, is coffee a total cost of $7 per pound or are the taxes $7 per pound? If it is ONLY $7 per pound total cost, being a coffee drinker, I may consider moving to Germany, as we pay $9 to $11 per 12 ounces, plus sales tax, in most States of the USA! A meteorite should not be considered an artifact unless it is found in a Native American site or early American site. They are rocks, 99%+ never used by early man. Glorious rocks, but rocks none the less. If you find a rock on BLM land, other then petrified wood or fossils, you can haul it away even if it weighs 499 pounds. The petrified wood limit is 250 pounds per year per person. As for rocks, no permit is needed on BLM land UNLESS you want to mine for minerals. Picking up a rock, by hand, on the surface is not mining. Sign me up to end this new ruling by our lord and master, the BLM. Fred Hall __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Terry Scott's New 17g Meteorite find
Hi List, The weather is just about right for desert meteorite hunting again. I recently spent a day out in the field with a couple of friends. One of them was lucky enough to find a beautiful 17 gram chondrite. The stone was found shortly after the hunt began. We spent the whole day in the field without making any more discoveries. Of course we all know there should be more pieces in the area it is just going to take a little work to find them. I had a chance to use my custom scale cube in the picture. http://www.nevadameteorites.com/nevadameteorites/ORDINARY_CHONDRITES.html Sonny __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
I think if we work together we can make some changes: I just wrote to the editor of MAPS suggesting that it was time for a rejoinder to Schmitt's article. I also suggested that I will put my 18 students on the task of data-mining the Meteoritical Data Base for information on who found what, who analyzed what, what institutions received what, etc., to get some quantitative information on the contribution of all of us to advancing the science of meteoritics. Having a background in Anthropology, I think I can prepare a more realistic view of what is going on than Schmitt. Also, having practiced archaeology professionally, I think I may be in a good position to argue that meteorites have no relation to Antiquities or even fossils. I think we need to pull together as much validly collected information on the recovery and trade in meteorites, not only by hunters, but by institutions, both historically and at present. I think the drafters of the BLM legislation do not see the realities of the public's interest in meteorites and their contribution to the community at large. A well-written questionnaire sent out to all interested parties might also serve us well. But let's spend the time to design one well before we circulate it. We also need not just to express our opposition to their legislation, but to propose something to replace it with. I am willing to pull together as much information as I can, in collaboration and with the help of others on this list, and also begin to consult (in a less biased manner than Schmitt) with professionals, amateurs and dealers. I have to teach and deal with other matters, so I cannot digest all your postings at one sitting. I will, with some encouragement, try to pull much of this together and post it on the Web. I will start to do some work on this beginning in January and perhaps by the time many of us get together in Tucson, we can sit together and do some planning. Later we can take our work to the MAPS to see if they concur. Nick __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Martin Wrote: (uh just read a while ago on web, that Botswana claims to have their cultural heritage back, the biggest lunar Kalahai 009 and asked the university muenster for it). Good, maybe they can provide us with an accurate weight and dimensions instead of rounding it off and hiding it from public view. This stone was miss-managed from the beginning causing many to ask if it is even a meteorite, a hoax or stolen. It would be interesting to hear who the anonymous finder is and the true circumstances of the find? Interesting, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 114, Issue 3
I was thinking the same thing about a Canadian writing American law.. This is such a disservice to everyone involved, especially the scientific community and institutions. Avoiding the media is the best thing to do. One more thing - I have to agree with Bill on the Chicago Steve issue. It is a real annoyance to be reading an interesting thread with everyone's opinion on a serious matter, only to be interrupted by that crap. Link it to Ebay like everyone else. Jim Message: 2 Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 10:02:35 -0800 (PST) From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Message-ID: 1354471355.16186.yahoomail...@web122002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I have been warning for years that making meteorites into treasure for TV or media purposes would lead to the meteorite hunting downfall. History is repeating itself.? It happened with relic hunters, coin-shooters and fossil finders because they became known as treasure hunters due to the popular press.? A few got there 15-minutes of fame and everybody else paid for it!? Treasure hunting as a wholesome hobby that could have been enjoyed by generations of family members has never recovered.? It is now completely off-limits on BLM land and so too will be meteorite hunting now that they are antiques.? Everything on Earth could be considered an antique using Schmitt's reasoning. Just wait until the next version of their meteorite recovery policy.? And to think a poorly written paper by a Canadian and some fleeting moments of fame for a few could influence American law.? Happy Hunting, Adm __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Dear Nicholas, Please allow me to whole heartedly congratulate you on channeling Your energy in a manor that is most likely to produce a positive outcome! As the Brits would say, Brilliant! Michael On 12/2/12 7:08 AM, Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu wrote: Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/n ational_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Perhaps we should all stop collecting selling meteorites. Also, stop giving to, selling or trading with institutions. All of these things bring attention to meteorites and the fact They are collected and valued by a very small few. Michael On 12/2/12 2:40 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Martin, I don't see how I can be wrong when I am basically quoting what was stated the Meteorite Recovery Act. I avoid the press and have turned down more interviews that I have accepted. If the first question out of a reporters' mouth is how much is it worth?, I usually end the interview. When we are talking about a key piece, I will quote a price so that they do not try to appraise the piece themselves which has happened numerous times in the past. I find it best to avoid the media. It states right in the Recovery policy that recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion Here is the exact context: However, recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion about the legality of and limits to casual and commercial collection. Courts have long established that meteorites belong to the owner of the surface estate. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
If you look at all the regulatory horrors that have been heaped on us over the last 40 years in every aspect of our lives, this seems incidental. The last stand, our real estate, has been stripped of it's value erasing generations of work. It isn't surprising that meteorites are being eyeballed. The media hype is an ongoing mistake. Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 18:07:56 -0800 From: mlbl...@cox.net To: raremeteori...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Perhaps we should all stop collecting selling meteorites. Also, stop giving to, selling or trading with institutions. All of these things bring attention to meteorites and the fact They are collected and valued by a very small few. Michael On 12/2/12 2:40 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Martin, I don't see how I can be wrong when I am basically quoting what was stated the Meteorite Recovery Act. I avoid the press and have turned down more interviews that I have accepted. If the first question out of a reporters' mouth is how much is it worth?, I usually end the interview. When we are talking about a key piece, I will quote a price so that they do not try to appraise the piece themselves which has happened numerous times in the past. I find it best to avoid the media. It states right in the Recovery policy that recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion Here is the exact context: However, recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion about the legality of and limits to casual and commercial collection. Courts have long established that meteorites belong to the owner of the surface estate. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Perhaps we are all making a gross assumption: that BLM writers-of-regs possess an interest in meteoritic science, antiqities, or whatever else is cited. Who, what, how etc. is behind the curtain? - Original Message - From: Michael Blood mlbl...@cox.net To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com; Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Perhaps we should all stop collecting selling meteorites. Also, stop giving to, selling or trading with institutions. All of these things bring attention to meteorites and the fact They are collected and valued by a very small few. Michael On 12/2/12 2:40 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Martin, I don't see how I can be wrong when I am basically quoting what was stated the Meteorite Recovery Act. I avoid the press and have turned down more interviews that I have accepted. If the first question out of a reporters' mouth is how much is it worth?, I usually end the interview. When we are talking about a key piece, I will quote a price so that they do not try to appraise the piece themselves which has happened numerous times in the past. I find it best to avoid the media. It states right in the Recovery policy that recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion Here is the exact context: However, recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion about the legality of and limits to casual and commercial collection. Courts have long established that meteorites belong to the owner of the surface estate. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Lots more recent posts on this topic still to read, above in my inbox; meanwhile I'll reitereate my concern: regulatory restictions on collecting whatever one can carry (how fortunate that Mike recovered the 300lb Glorieta already... I digress) ...is small potatoes compared to the alarming precedent set with unelected appointed commisions dictating what can subsequently be done with private property. - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy I think, you're beating the wrong ones. These, you're thinking to be responsible due to their media presence are not so mighty, to create new laws and regulations. Btw. look it up in old magazines, even Saint Nininger was posing with meteorites in the press and as a hunter, where of course also price tags were blinking through the headlines, and no restrictions followed. Neither in many countries, where meteorites were no topic at all in media, decades ago, when there a strict legislation was newly introduced. And what is wrong to pose with exciting pieces (and monetary values) in public? I know even two brothers, everywhere highlighting a large piece of the Moon... ;-) If everything which is good, expensive, loveable and fascinating would have to be concealed, for the fear, that there could be some administrative dabblers immediately trying to forbid them, I guess I, neither you wouldn't want to live in a world like that. Honestly, I have rather a problem, that there are extra-taxes on coffee (gosh here the pound is now 7$, that's unfair.). And strange it is, that the states are the largest profiteers in drug dealing. Tobacco, alcohol, gambling.. And be glad. Those new BLM-rules are by far not so strict like laws are in other countries (which weren't that much noticed in the western navel-gazing), so as harmful (and ahistorical) and stupid (ask the Ngweyama, I guess with his 12 wives, he has work enough, than to care with the Deputy Prime Minister for possible meteorites) the new rules are for former meteorite nation #1, you got off still relatively lightly. Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 22:46 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy TV entertainers and press-chasers have publicly turned looking for meteorites into a treasure hunt complete with grossly inflated price-tags to attract viewership. This is the same tired but effective method that the lame Antique Roadshow has used for over a decade. Perhaps these entertainers can use their media influence to correct their wrongs or at the very least apologize to the meteorite collecting community for knowingly attracting the wrong kind of attention. A lot of people including these BLM employees do not realize there is a difference between TV entertainment and reality. It finally reached the point people have learned the prices quoted on the Antique Show are bogus when they go to market an item. Since meteorites are now considered treasure and antiques, perhaps we could learn something from England's treasure trove laws. The Government there has to bid on the items if they truly want to protect them. I think non-essential BLM jobs should be cut if these public servants are keeping themselves busy reading and acting upon Schmitt's crap or believe what they see on TV. They should start with the personal that took it upon themselves to act as spokespeople for the rest of the public with the Meteorite Recover Act of 2012. Enough from me, I am angry over the this poor situation brought on by thoughtless people. Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Nick I'm with you, I think if we can get the FACTS out together we can make a change. All the finger pointing is pointless to point of making things worse. Wow a lot of points there. Most all activity is in some way regulated on fed land and we were lucky enough to skirt regulation so long so I agree we need to try to mold the new regulations to work for us. So what ever you need count me in. In the mean time you can find me out there just rock hounding. Bryan Couch Wildomar Ca Dare to fail On Dec 2, 2012, at 4:21 PM, Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu wrote: I think if we work together we can make some changes: I just wrote to the editor of MAPS suggesting that it was time for a rejoinder to Schmitt's article. I also suggested that I will put my 18 students on the task of data-mining the Meteoritical Data Base for information on who found what, who analyzed what, what institutions received what, etc., to get some quantitative information on the contribution of all of us to advancing the science of meteoritics. Having a background in Anthropology, I think I can prepare a more realistic view of what is going on than Schmitt. Also, having practiced archaeology professionally, I think I may be in a good position to argue that meteorites have no relation to Antiquities or even fossils. I think we need to pull together as much validly collected information on the recovery and trade in meteorites, not only by hunters, but by institutions, both historically and at present. I think the drafters of the BLM legislation do not see the realities of the public's interest in meteorites and their contribution to the community at large. A well-written questionnaire sent out to all interested parties might also serve us well. But let's spend the time to design one well before we circulate it. We also need not just to express our opposition to their legislation, but to propose something to replace it with. I am willing to pull together as much information as I can, in collaboration and with the help of others on this list, and also begin to consult (in a less biased manner than Schmitt) with professionals, amateurs and dealers. I have to teach and deal with other matters, so I cannot digest all your postings at one sitting. I will, with some encouragement, try to pull much of this together and post it on the Web. I will start to do some work on this beginning in January and perhaps by the time many of us get together in Tucson, we can sit together and do some planning. Later we can take our work to the MAPS to see if they concur. Nick __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Wake up and smell what you are stepping in, Michael! I think we are nearly through collecting meteorites, at least on public land. Remember, I saw my last hobby, Treasure Hunting, destroyed a few bad apples in the very same manner decades ago. I remember the good old days when you could swing a metal detector around without being treated like a common criminal. Sure, nothing attracts the federal governments attention like the words treasure and big bucks splashed all of over their television screens. Throw in the cash register and add the sound effect Ka-chinnggg and you have a winning combination for attracting the feds. They claim that is why they felt it necessary to clarify (rewrite) the laws in the Meteorite Recovery Act 2012. Have you even read it? Due to the actions of a few, I will never again have the opportunity to cut a 10 pound plus meteorite found on public land. I fondly remember reactivating the Judge (a 24 inch Highlands Park diamond saw) and cutting the 26 pounder found by the Count here in Nevada. I might as well mothball the Judge or sell it to a lapidary farm since anything over 10 pounds has to be left in the field considering 89% of the land here in Nevada is under federal control Something got the BLM's attention What else could it be other than the media? Why else would the give %@#*? Adam From: Michael Blood mlbl...@cox.net To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com; Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Perhaps we should all stop collecting selling meteorites. Also, stop giving to, selling or trading with institutions. All of these things bring attention to meteorites and the fact They are collected and valued by a very small few. Michael On 12/2/12 2:40 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Martin, I don't see how I can be wrong when I am basically quoting what was stated the Meteorite Recovery Act. I avoid the press and have turned down more interviews that I have accepted. If the first question out of a reporters' mouth is how much is it worth?, I usually end the interview. When we are talking about a key piece, I will quote a price so that they do not try to appraise the piece themselves which has happened numerous times in the past. I find it best to avoid the media. It states right in the Recovery policy that recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion Here is the exact context: However, recent media attention has increased public interest in meteorites as well as confusion about the legality of and limits to casual and commercial collection. Courts have long established that meteorites belong to the owner of the surface estate. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Adam, This is an example of government bureaucracy doing what it does best. This is just the beginning. I'm not a hunter, but I'm affected because I buy from those of you who do the actual hunting. People here on The List *feel* this up close and personal, because they're directly affected. This kind of thing goes on all the time throughout our increasingly over regulated society. Remember, the bigger the government the smaller the citizen. The thing is, once the genie is out of the bottle, it's very hard, maybe impossible to put him back in. That's the nature of an over reaching government. Greg L. Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:00:05 -0800 From: raremeteori...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for meteorites. Really? We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us! These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the downfall of a great avocation. Happy Hunting, Adam From: Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D. nick.gess...@duke.edu To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Regarding the BLM's policy on Collection of Meteorites on Public Land posted at: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bulletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National Paleontologist and lkui...@blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources Specialist fje...@blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply. At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information) request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc. Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other list members received any official communications from the BLM regarding their policy? I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and scientific institutions should come together to oppose it. I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle. Perhaps I can contribute to that effort. Regards, Nick nick.gess...@duke.edu http://isis.duke.edu/gessler Research Associate (ISIS) INFORMATION SCIENCE INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North Carolina Courses: ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS Networks of Trust, Secrecy Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226 METEORITES SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY History of Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Hello All, I'd like to point out a few things: As an active meteorite hunter/collector, the proposed regulations do not affect me. These new rules primarily affect the commercial interest in meteorite hunting -- those people who regularly hunt on public land and sell their finds. A precious few people publish any information on their more 'important' finds. It often takes years for such information to reach the public, if it does at all. Most of the single-specimen 25+ lb stones found on BLM land in the past two decades have been kept secret and out of the public sphere of knowledge. I know of a few such stones, and have no doubt that there are more. They haven't been submitted for analysis, and you can't find photos online. Not for fear of the government claiming them, but because the finders don't want the attention...or competition in the field. Sonny Clary is one of the very few people I know who publishes that kind of information. And now his finds are being touted as examples of why private meteorite hunters are such a boon for science, despite the fact that he is a very big exception when compared to the rest of us Southwest hunters. [Or maybe you think that no one else is finding large meteorites? Seems unlikely, doesn't it?] That said, such a law won't change this practice of keeping important* finds secret, so I'm still not seeing the point of supporting either side. *Perhaps large (25 lbs) isn't synonymous with importance. Seems like a qualitative judgement to me. Granted, we amateur hunters find meteorites. But, as a group, our primary interest isn't the advancement of science. That much is very clear. We're all interested in it to different extents, but we're not donating our finds to science beyond what we have to (some folks give a bit more, but it's almost always a fraction of a given stone). With regards to recovery, we do indeed accomplish more than scientists could on their own. Battle Mountain is the best example of this in recent years: a new fall that would not have been recovered without amateurs. But, with collectors and dealers finding rocks, scientists get a much smaller cut of the material, with the majority of it going to sale/into collections (and with no guarantee of the quality of curatorship). No one against the law has yet addressed this topic, which I think may be an aspect of the problem. And no one is arguing that we amateurs don't provide a valuable service by bringing new meteorites to light that would otherwise not (ever?) be found. Nor do the proposed regulations inhibit the right or ability of most hunters to continue to do what they've been doing. You guys need to look at the regulations and what they're actually going to change. Permits will theoretically be required for selling meteorites found on BLM land and uncommonly large finds that aren't usually reported anyway are theoretically going to have to be turned in to the government. -- The Antiquities Act -- yes, it seems a little odd to piggy-back meteorites on an antiquity law that was not intended to include meteorites. On the other hand, it's probably easier to pass regulations on newly considered items by folding them into existing regulatory categories. Instead of a new BLM department for regulating meteorites, the government officials who went after artifacts can now address both groups of items (meteorites + artifacts). This doesn't seem like such an insane idea to me. Good? I don't know. Since the new regulations don't affect me, I don't particularly care. Were these new aspects of the law intended under the original legislation? Nope. But it seems that the *intent* of the people changing the law is to restrict the private for-profit exploitation of meteorites found on public land. So, they are passing the laws that they intend to pass, which aren't the laws that someone wanted back in 1906. Of course, back in 1906, we didn't know that meteorites could be collected on public land and sold for considerable profit, so the fact that there wasn't a law then (and *perhaps* should be one now) is...kind of logical. Seems a little less crazy now, doesn't it? All that's left to do is debate the pros and cons of these proposed regulations. I would go about it by comparing the regulations' merits and drawbacks. Making this a legal argument of but they weren't intended to be covered by this law in 1906 seems odd to me. With Gebel Kamil in Egypt, some academics tried to say that meteorites fell under an antiquities law when no qualifying laws/regulations had ever been made. That didn't cut it for me. This is going through actual legislative channels. Generally, I don't like regulation, but... After ~10 years of free-time-hunting, the largest stone Peter and I have ever found out here in California weighs a measly few kilos. Maybe when I find a 200 lb iron sitting out there, I'll think differently. But the Smithsonian already confiscates the big meteorites
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
You have heard the saying give an inch and they will take a mile Richard Norton tried to warn anybody who would listen a decade ago. Meteorites are no more antiques than the rocks in my back yard. Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about it and is unconstitutional. The word meteorite couldn't even be found in a BLM officer's manual a mere year ago. Now this has all changed. The first 8-year old kid that picks up 10.01 pound meteorite will now be considered a criminal. Freedom isn't for free, Adam - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy Hello All, I'd like to point out a few things: As an active meteorite hunter/collector, the proposed regulations do not affect me. These new rules primarily affect the commercial interest in meteorite hunting -- those people who regularly hunt on public land and sell their finds. A precious few people publish any information on their more 'important' finds. It often takes years for such information to reach the public, if it does at all. Most of the single-specimen 25+ lb stones found on BLM land in the past two decades have been kept secret and out of the public sphere of knowledge. I know of a few such stones, and have no doubt that there are more. They haven't been submitted for analysis, and you can't find photos online. Not for fear of the government claiming them, but because the finders don't want the attention...or competition in the field. Sonny Clary is one of the very few people I know who publishes that kind of information. And now his finds are being touted as examples of why private meteorite hunters are such a boon for science, despite the fact that he is a very big exception when compared to the rest of us Southwest hunters. [Or maybe you think that no one else is finding large meteorites? Seems unlikely, doesn't it?] That said, such a law won't change this practice of keeping important* finds secret, so I'm still not seeing the point of supporting either side. *Perhaps large (25 lbs) isn't synonymous with importance. Seems like a qualitative judgement to me. Granted, we amateur hunters find meteorites. But, as a group, our primary interest isn't the advancement of science. That much is very clear. We're all interested in it to different extents, but we're not donating our finds to science beyond what we have to (some folks give a bit more, but it's almost always a fraction of a given stone). With regards to recovery, we do indeed accomplish more than scientists could on their own. Battle Mountain is the best example of this in recent years: a new fall that would not have been recovered without amateurs. But, with collectors and dealers finding rocks, scientists get a much smaller cut of the material, with the majority of it going to sale/into collections (and with no guarantee of the quality of curatorship). No one against the law has yet addressed this topic, which I think may be an aspect of the problem. And no one is arguing that we amateurs don't provide a valuable service by bringing new meteorites to light that would otherwise not (ever?) be found. Nor do the proposed regulations inhibit the right or ability of most hunters to continue to do what they've been doing. You guys need to look at the regulations and what they're actually going to change. Permits will theoretically be required for selling meteorites found on BLM land and uncommonly large finds that aren't usually reported anyway are theoretically going to have to be turned in to the government. -- The Antiquities Act -- yes, it seems a little odd to piggy-back meteorites on an antiquity law that was not intended to include meteorites. On the other hand, it's probably easier to pass regulations on newly considered items by folding them into existing regulatory categories. Instead of a new BLM department for regulating meteorites, the government officials who went after artifacts can now address both groups of items (meteorites + artifacts). This doesn't seem like such an insane idea to me. Good? I don't know. Since the new regulations don't affect me, I don't particularly care. Were these new aspects of the law intended under the original legislation? Nope. But it seems that the *intent* of the people changing the law is to restrict the private for-profit exploitation of meteorites found on public land. So, they are passing the laws that they intend to pass, which aren't the laws that someone wanted back in 1906. Of course, back in 1906, we didn't know that meteorites could be collected on public land and sold for considerable profit, so the fact that there wasn't a law then (and *perhaps* should be one now) is...kind of logical. Seems a little less crazy now, doesn't it? All that's left to
