Re: [meteorite-list] A Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts
Dirk wrote: List and Ed, Continuing discussion follows EPG`s final question. E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:... Do you really want to stand by such a display of a lack of intelligence and sense, or do you wish to reconsider that statement? - Yes, I stand by my statements of fact. They were no statements of fact, Dirk. You made assertions concerning Native American traditions which were both factually incorrect, as well as displayed an amazing ignorance of the field of anthropology. You compared millenium old traditions with a 175 year old forgery. And yes, you finally admitted that your facts are indeed your belief, thus not science. And how did you get that? My facts are one thing, my beliefs another. I gave the allegories of several Native American religions in Man and Impact in the Americas, as well as giving their oral histories there - and mainly I gave their histories. Those are facts about those peoples in and of themselves. By the way, the Maya had written writing, and made contemporaneous records of events. What I believe is something else. I think that there are Christians who are scientists, Jews who are scientists, Moslems who are scientists, Budhists who are scientists. Can't one hold a Native American belief system and be a scientist? Or can science only practiced by atheists and English Deists? Or perhaps history and anthropology are not sciences? Belief posed as fact or science is poor scholarship, as your book and excerpts clearly display. So is misrepresenting someone else's work, and misrepresenting their use of materials. Also, lack of any primary research (nothing remotely demonstrating proof of any Holocene impact) Except for the sudden population losses and cultural discontinuities... But then displays of physical evidence are often invisible to some people. So watch the National Geographic Channel program on TV. As a final point, the day after my final warning to Darryl on Williamette, I ran into a gentleman whose uncle had bulldozed a mound. Three days later he was found dead of heart attack drooped over a toilet into which he had been vomiting stuff that looked like s***. While that's a fact, it is only my belief that no good will come to Darryl or anyone from dealing Williamette - if he or anyone else wants to join the dataset, go on ahead. Beyond this warning, like the others, I will simply look on in dismay. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] A Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts
Hi all - I hope you will bear with me here, as I need to make a record of this Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts. It comes from Albert S. Gatschet's manuscript, which was not available to me when I assembled Man and Impact in the Americas, and so this tradition was not included in my book. You may want to watch the National Geographic Channel this Sunday at 10 Eastern time for the first broadcast of their new documentary on the Holocene Start Impacts. A SHAWNEE TRADITION OF THE HOLOCENE START IMPACTS The following mythic tale of the Battle of the Good Mind and the Bad Mind was also held by the Tuscarora, and David Cusick's version of it from his Sketches of the Ancient History of the Six Nations, was given complete in my own book Man and Impact in the Americas. This shared tradition is not surprising, as Iroquoian people comprised the first of the three streams that joined to form the Shawnee people. A later borrowing of this tale by the Shawnee can be ruled out. The version given here came from Thomas Staind and William Tookey, was elucidated by Thomas Dougherty, and preserved through the hard work of Albert Gatschet. THE BATTTLE OF THE GOOD MIND AND THE BAD MIND One of the Twins was the Creator [the Good Mind - Wessi Manitou, elsewhere in the manuscript] and the other the Destroyer, or the Bad Spirit (Maeche Manitou, the Bad Mind). The first was born properly. The second was not born properly; He was born from his mother's side. Both of them started off. The Creator headed for the Center (Taheliki), just there he came, and then they both came to the Center (Taheliki). Then one of them wanted to know what they were going to do, then one of them went to the East, the other to the West. One of them by turning went towards the place where the Sun rises(East). Let us go (to the Center) the Bad Mind said to the Good Spirit (Mind), There we will look at what each of us has created. Too much and too good have you created everything, the Bad Mind said. You have given them too much - you have created too much good. For everything was created so well that people would altogether be too lazy. [Dougherty(?) elucidated this as When the Bad Mind went west, he returned, and said to the Good Mind, You created everything too well, the children will be too lazy.] Then the Good Mind spoke to the Evil Mind. Everything too badly you have created, even large snakes [COMETS] even those which will kill people. You have badly created even worse than that. [Dougherty(?) told this as To the Bad Mind the Good Mind said, You created everything wrong while going west - big snakes would kill a person, thorns (cactus, most likely a later western insertion of detail) - and your creations would be obnoxious to people.] Now then they were returning back to where they started. Then the Bad Mind asked the Good Mind, What are you afraid of? Of horns, he [the Good Mind] answered. And what are you afraid of?, he [the Good Mind] asked. Of flagweeds (hapwaki), they will strangle me if you strike me. [I now think it most likely that these flags were some kind of poison used in hunting.] Then the Bad Mind said You first Then not you will be first in turn? That is agreeable., said the Good Mind. Then he ran towards the sunrise (east). In that direction he ran, and the Bad Mind followed. Ten times, twelve times, they piled the flags upon one another, until they reached the piles of flags came to an end, and then they returned to the Center. Then the Bad Mind ran to the west. In that direction he ran, and the Good Mind ran after him. Ten times, twelve times, horns were piled in that direction. The Good Mind picked up the horns as he was running, and he stuck the Bad Mind with these horns. Then the Good Mind put a rock on himself, and then the Bad Mind struck him with these horns until he tore to pieces his own garment. Thus he [the Good Mind] killed him [the Bad Mind]. [THE IMPACTS - The order of directions given here, south, east, north, and west may be ritualistic or may preserve some actual memory of sequence.] Then the Good Mind built a fire, as he wanted to burn the Bad Mind up. Then while the Bad Mind's heart was in the fire, it burst out, to the South. The Good Mind went and grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again. Then it [the Bad Mind's heart] burst from the fire to the East, and The Good Mind grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again. Then it [the Bad Mind's heart] burst from the fire to the North, and The Good Mind grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again. Then it [the Bad Mind's heart] burst from the fire to the West, and The Good Mind grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again, this time bursting. It burst under the ground. That's what I want to do with him, and then the Good Mind stamped on top of the ground. He jumped up and down on where the Bad Mind's heart had finally burst. Then the Good Mind
Re: [meteorite-list] A Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts
Hi, E.P., List, E.P. writes: ...After this the Good Mind created the first man and woman at the Buffalo Lick...may be identified with Big (Salt) Lick, just to the south of... Cincinnati, Ohio... This would put the spot where Humanity was created right on the site (or within a very few miles) of the new Creation Museum. I wonder if they know they built their Biblical Theme Park in the Garden of Eden? And, you know? There are people that think that God doesn't have a sense of humor? Sterling - - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 7:41 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] A Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts Hi all - I hope you will bear with me here, as I need to make a record of this Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts. It comes from Albert S. Gatschet's manuscript, which was not available to me when I assembled Man and Impact in the Americas, and so this tradition was not included in my book. You may want to watch the National Geographic Channel this Sunday at 10 Eastern time for the first broadcast of their new documentary on the Holocene Start Impacts. A SHAWNEE TRADITION OF THE HOLOCENE START IMPACTS The following mythic tale of the Battle of the Good Mind and the Bad Mind was also held by the Tuscarora, and David Cusick's version of it from his Sketches of the Ancient History of the Six Nations, was given complete in my own book Man and Impact in the Americas. This shared tradition is not surprising, as Iroquoian people comprised the first of the three streams that joined to form the Shawnee people. A later borrowing of this tale by the Shawnee can be ruled out. The version given here came from Thomas Staind and William Tookey, was elucidated by Thomas Dougherty, and preserved through the hard work of Albert Gatschet. THE BATTTLE OF THE GOOD MIND AND THE BAD MIND One of the Twins was the Creator [the Good Mind - Wessi Manitou, elsewhere in the manuscript] and the other the Destroyer, or the Bad Spirit (Maeche Manitou, the Bad Mind). The first was born properly. The second was not born properly; He was born from his mother's side. Both of them started off. The Creator headed for the Center (Taheliki), just there he came, and then they both came to the Center (Taheliki). Then one of them wanted to know what they were going to do, then one of them went to the East, the other to the West. One of them by turning went towards the place where the Sun rises(East). Let us go (to the Center) the Bad Mind said to the Good Spirit (Mind), There we will look at what each of us has created. Too much and too good have you created everything, the Bad Mind said. You have given them too much - you have created too much good. For everything was created so well that people would altogether be too lazy. [Dougherty(?) elucidated this as When the Bad Mind went west, he returned, and said to the Good Mind, You created everything too well, the children will be too lazy.] Then the Good Mind spoke to the Evil Mind. Everything too badly you have created, even large snakes [COMETS] even those which will kill people. You have badly created even worse than that. [Dougherty(?) told this as To the Bad Mind the Good Mind said, You created everything wrong while going west - big snakes would kill a person, thorns (cactus, most likely a later western insertion of detail) - and your creations would be obnoxious to people.] Now then they were returning back to where they started. Then the Bad Mind asked the Good Mind, What are you afraid of? Of horns, he [the Good Mind] answered. And what are you afraid of?, he [the Good Mind] asked. Of flagweeds (hapwaki), they will strangle me if you strike me. [I now think it most likely that these flags were some kind of poison used in hunting.] Then the Bad Mind said You first Then not you will be first in turn? That is agreeable., said the Good Mind. Then he ran towards the sunrise (east). In that direction he ran, and the Bad Mind followed. Ten times, twelve times, they piled the flags upon one another, until they reached the piles of flags came to an end, and then they returned to the Center. Then the Bad Mind ran to the west. In that direction he ran, and the Good Mind ran after him. Ten times, twelve times, horns were piled in that direction. The Good Mind picked up the horns as he was running, and he stuck the Bad Mind with these horns. Then the Good Mind put a rock on himself, and then the Bad Mind struck him with these horns until he tore to pieces his own garment. Thus he [the Good Mind] killed him [the Bad Mind]. [THE IMPACTS - The order of directions given here, south, east, north, and west may be ritualistic or may preserve some actual memory of sequence.] Then the Good Mind built a fire, as he wanted to burn the Bad Mind up. Then while the Bad Mind's heart was in the fire
Re: [meteorite-list] A Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts
Ed, Sterling and List, Ed your interpretations of their myths and the other myths mentioning impacts (your belief-interpretation by adding [impact, comet, meteorite is sense-less]) have no bearing on fact or science. Even Holocene Start Impact is a belief and not a fact; Younger-Dryas group have few facts and very questionable at best to back their hypothesis. These myths were recorded not by the original peoples (native Americans) and just because some white guy printed it or took it down does not make it fact as I am sure he could not or did not understand what was conveyed to him by the Elders. These are as about as believable as the gold plates that Joseph Smith found. Belief is not fact or science and should not be confused with such; the recorders of these myths that you cite have no anthropological background or scientific training on asking non-leading questions also. If you wish to continue to advertise your book please put AD in the subject title. This would be more interesting and useful IF the Elders had stated or reported to have said stone from sky (most native American languages, if not all, have such words). Comments and corrections accepted. Apologies if I am proved wrong. Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo --- Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, E.P., List, E.P. writes: ...After this the Good Mind created the first man and woman at the Buffalo Lick...may be identified with Big (Salt) Lick, just to the south of... Cincinnati, Ohio... This would put the spot where Humanity was created right on the site (or within a very few miles) of the new Creation Museum. I wonder if they know they built their Biblical Theme Park in the Garden of Eden? And, you know? There are people that think that God doesn't have a sense of humor? Sterling - - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 7:41 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] A Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts Hi all - I hope you will bear with me here, as I need to make a record of this Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts. It comes from Albert S. Gatschet's manuscript, which was not available to me when I assembled Man and Impact in the Americas, and so this tradition was not included in my book. You may want to watch the National Geographic Channel this Sunday at 10 Eastern time for the first broadcast of their new documentary on the Holocene Start Impacts. A SHAWNEE TRADITION OF THE HOLOCENE START IMPACTS The following mythic tale of the Battle of the Good Mind and the Bad Mind was also held by the Tuscarora, and David Cusick's version of it from his Sketches of the Ancient History of the Six Nations, was given complete in my own book Man and Impact in the Americas. This shared tradition is not surprising, as Iroquoian people comprised the first of the three streams that joined to form the Shawnee people. A later borrowing of this tale by the Shawnee can be ruled out. The version given here came from Thomas Staind and William Tookey, was elucidated by Thomas Dougherty, and preserved through the hard work of Albert Gatschet. THE BATTTLE OF THE GOOD MIND AND THE BAD MIND One of the Twins was the Creator [the Good Mind - Wessi Manitou, elsewhere in the manuscript] and the other the Destroyer, or the Bad Spirit (Maeche Manitou, the Bad Mind). The first was born properly. The second was not born properly; He was born from his mother's side. Both of them started off. The Creator headed for the Center (Taheliki), just there he came, and then they both came to the Center (Taheliki). Then one of them wanted to know what they were going to do, then one of them went to the East, the other to the West. One of them by turning went towards the place where the Sun rises(East). Let us go (to the Center) the Bad Mind said to the Good Spirit (Mind), There we will look at what each of us has created. Too much and too good have you created everything, the Bad Mind said. You have given them too much - you have created too much good. For everything was created so well that people would altogether be too lazy. [Dougherty(?) elucidated this as When the Bad Mind went west, he returned, and said to the Good Mind, You created everything too well, the children will be too lazy.] Then the Good Mind spoke to the Evil Mind. Everything too badly you have created, even large snakes [COMETS] even those which will kill people. You have badly created even worse than that. [Dougherty(?) told this as To the Bad Mind the Good Mind said, You created everything wrong while going west - big snakes would kill a person, thorns (cactus, most likely a later western insertion of detail) - and your creations would be obnoxious to people.] Now
Re: [meteorite-list] A Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts
Hi Dirk - I suppose I'll just have to disagree with you on the physical evidence for the Holocene Start Impacts. Apparently the US National Academy of Science does as well, as they just published the team's research in their Proceedings. These myths were recorded not by the original peoples (native Americans) Actually, Dirk, they were - read my book. This would be more interesting and useful IF the Elders had stated or reported to have said stone from sky (most native American languages, if not all, have such words). Actually, Dirk, later on different peoples had specific words which they used for comets, just as we do, and they used them. But at the earliest times, in the earliest allegories, they often just used the word snake. Its the descriptions they used and the events described in addition to this word snake that fills in the meaning of comet. These are as about as believable as the gold plates that Joseph Smith found. Whether and what you believe in or not is up to you; that's a matter of faith, belief. I won't trouble you as to your beliefs, or lack therof, as that's your business - so please don't trouble me about mine. But it is a fact that these beliefs themselves were held by some people, and that fact constitutes a fact in and of itself, indicating nothing more than that. These were some people's beliefs. I am not asking you to believe in the Creator, the Great Spirit, and/or Mother Earth. I myself don't believe that the Good Mind created Adam and Eve at Big Lick, Kentucky. It's an allegory, to use an European expression. For example, the Five Nations remembered a cave where their ancestors survived the Holocene start impacts. What I'm asserting to you as fact is that the earliest religious tales of some of the First Peoples, the creation allegories, contain memories of the Holocene Start Impact events, and how the ancestors survived them. I find your comparison of these well attested ancient religious allegories with Joseph Smith's well attested personal frauds to be offensive. Do you really want to stand by such a display of a lack of intelligence and sense, or do you wish to reconsider that statement? E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas --- drtanuki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ed, Sterling and List, Ed your interpretations of their myths and the other myths mentioning impacts (your belief-interpretation by adding [impact, comet, meteorite is sense-less]) have no bearing on fact or science. Even Holocene Start Impact is a belief and not a fact; Younger-Dryas group have few facts and very questionable at best to back their hypothesis. These myths were recorded not by the original peoples (native Americans) and just because some white guy printed it or took it down does not make it fact as I am sure he could not or did not understand what was conveyed to him by the Elders. These are as about as believable as the gold plates that Joseph Smith found. Belief is not fact or science and should not be confused with such; the recorders of these myths that you cite have no anthropological background or scientific training on asking non-leading questions also. If you wish to continue to advertise your book please put AD in the subject title. This would be more interesting and useful IF the Elders had stated or reported to have said stone from sky (most native American languages, if not all, have such words). Comments and corrections accepted. Apologies if I am proved wrong. Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo --- Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, E.P., List, E.P. writes: ...After this the Good Mind created the first man and woman at the Buffalo Lick...may be identified with Big (Salt) Lick, just to the south of... Cincinnati, Ohio... This would put the spot where Humanity was created right on the site (or within a very few miles) of the new Creation Museum. I wonder if they know they built their Biblical Theme Park in the Garden of Eden? And, you know? There are people that think that God doesn't have a sense of humor? Sterling - - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 7:41 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] A Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts Hi all - I hope you will bear with me here, as I need to make a record of this Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts. It comes from Albert S. Gatschet's manuscript, which was not available to me when I assembled Man and Impact in the Americas, and so this tradition was not included in my book. You may want to watch the National Geographic Channel this Sunday at 10 Eastern time for the first broadcast of their new documentary on the Holocene Start Impacts. A SHAWNEE
