Re: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
John, You are comparing apples to oranges. If someone is so concerned that others might now what they are buying on ebay they should not buy on ebay. Hearing about the sordid details of a divorce or a DUI is hardly the same as Ebay data. Mark - Original Message - From: John Gwilliam [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jamie Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mark Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteoritelist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary) List Members, I've been sitting back quietly watching this thread get over-baked over the past few days and finally decided I'd step in a make a comment. In his remarks, Jamie talks about his potential right to publish data that is extracted from publicly available documents. Personally, I believe that with this right comes a lot of responsibility. For example, did you know that if you've ever been a party in a divorce, arrested and charged with a crime, or been to Tax Court, the written records of those proceedings are public information? That is, unless the judge in the case sealed the records, which is rarely done. That means that I, or someone else, could access all court records involving Meteorite List members throughout the United States and publish those findings. Now wouldn't that be lovely? We'd know who the drunk drivers and the wife beaters were and we could sit in our chairs and snicker about all the nasty accusations that are part of every divorce trial. No thanks, I don't need to see it...even if it is publicly available information. You see, there is no beneficial value in doing so. Rather, it sounds like a good way to loose a bunch of friends to me. I don't see any real value to compiling information about Ebay sellers and purchasers either. Sure, you can figure out what's been selling well and what hasn't, and you can find out who has been spending the most money on meteorites lately...so what? Do you contact these buyers and offer to sell them more meteorites? I'm pretty sure that would be a violation of Ebay rules. How many list members are forty-hour-a-week Meteorite Market Analists anyway? Someone else mentioned something about getting a life. I vote for that. Best to all...but tired of the thread, John __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
One item not mentioned about this survey of yours Jamie, is the tax angle, which may be the biggest reason anyone would be against it. Public knowledge is a powerful tool in the right hands. Personally, I think its a great idea. It will reflect trends and help marketing strategies. It will also point those using meteorites as an investment, like precious metals and gemstones, to which are the best to invest in. The legal angle about bots and data collecting is often a gray zone. Much like the ability to build a receiver for any kind of transmission, but the minute you disseminate any information you've received, you can be charged under law. So is it illegal to make and own a receiver? No, but the use of that receiver is where it gets gray. So to would this use of a bot. Its kinda like recording a movie and later selling it at a garage sale. You can watch the movie, they usually don't beef if you watch your recording. But when you sell it, or even loan it, for some reason they call that pirating. The other point is gathering information from a website. Is it copyrighted? Even when its an auction and changing often? Curious stuff in the least. Mark - Original Message - From: Jamie Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary) Listees, Thanks for the many comments. As I warned, the results are preliminary. One prominent seller pointed out important omissions in my data (items sold via Buy It Now in particular). I'm debugging and rerunning. Since there is sufficient interest and since the reports are not small, I'll set up a little Web page for future results. Stay tuned for a pointer. It'll be fun to look at data over time. --Jamie Jamie Stephens wrote: Listees, On the dealer/collector spectrum, I'm at the collector end. I haven't yet sold any meteorites (but I do need to thin out my collection a bit). Anyway, I am interested in the meteorite market dynamics. It's fun. Targeting Ebay, I exercised some software tools I have. I looked at completed Meteorites, Tektites category completed sales from 2003-10-10 to 2003-10-25 (the data that Ebay keeps easily available). Here are some interesting stats: [CAVEAT: I haven't thoroughly validated these results. Please consider them preliminary.] Items ended: 2036 Items sold: 1035 Number of unique sellers: 169 Number of unique winners: 413 Number of unique bidders: 815 Total sold: $57,951.60 Most expensive item sold: $6,736.00 More data below. I plan to start collecting data over time to see trends. If you're interested in the result, let me know. I'll post if there's sufficient interest. I'm mostly interested in the demand side. Are more people bidding on meteorites? What else are they bidding on? Etc. Of course, I'm only looking at EBay -- as opposed to the large number of direct deals that I can't see. Some folks might gripe that I'm invading privacy. Yes? If so, lemme know. I can obfuscate identities. But folks can still figure out the identities from the EBay data. Please remember the caveat above, and send my any comments or questions. --Jamie Stephens Top 20 sellers making the most money: seller | # trans | usd ---+---+--- cometshop |47 | 10634 finmet|70 | 7436 meteoritehunter%40comcast.net |80 | 4584 meteoritemarina |17 | 3619 a.chondrite | 6 | 2145 mr-meteorite | 6 | 2132 flattoprocks |30 | 1956 meteoritelab | 108 | 1937 katy2kary |35 | 1710 meteoritehunters |47 | 1374 17jack-anthony|10 | 1141 meteoriten| 8 | 1044 illinoismeteorites|12 | 1025 paolo2000 | 7 | 1018 3281958 | 2 | 1005 meteoriteusa.com |22 | 940 meteorflash |79 | 808 svassiliev|18 | 736 meteoritesandmore |63 | 628 litig8nshark | 6 | 516 (20 rows) Top 20 bidders spending the most money: bidder | usd | wins -+--+-- nickelironmonkey| 6787 |2 dbgbogey| 2065 |2 cat_berlin | 1848 |3 peterutas%40aol.com | 1630 |1 aggiemwd| 1525 |1 pangeogem | 1447 |3 meteorpassion | 1032 | 16 meteoritoeg | 1009 | 21 pat11260| 978 |7 tdaulton| 961 |2 pema9 | 824 | 11 17jack-anthony | 817 | 10
Re: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
Mark, As you mention, the legal issues you mention are copyright issues. In my experiments, it's very likely there is no copyright issue. Courts have generally held that simple data (like numbers, monetary amounts, names) are not covered by copyright. I'm not messing with images or page layouts, for example. BTW, the DCMA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act) is changing related law in big ways. Redistribution is not necessarily a requirement for infringement. IANAL = I am not a lawyer! Instead, it's a user agreement issue -- as written as well as communicated, applied, and enforced. The 'robots.txt' file, the FAQ's about auction management software, the language about being a venue, and other behavior and communication are relevant here. (But I don't wish to challenge them.) As you said, definitely curious -- with EBay and more generally. BTW, I have started the discussion with EBay to attempt to get permission for aggregating data in specific ways. We'll see where that leads. Re tax issues: I hope the IRS had better means that looking at some amateur data that totalled well under $1M across many individuals! If I were the IRS, I'd head straight to EBay (and PayPal). No messing around. The IRS doesn't have to. Just to be clear: if I do publish more data, I will not use names of any kind -- regardless of any right I might actually have to do so. --Jamie Mark Ferguson wrote: One item not mentioned about this survey of yours Jamie, is the tax angle, which may be the biggest reason anyone would be against it. Public knowledge is a powerful tool in the right hands. Personally, I think its a great idea. It will reflect trends and help marketing strategies. It will also point those using meteorites as an investment, like precious metals and gemstones, to which are the best to invest in. The legal angle about bots and data collecting is often a gray zone. Much like the ability to build a receiver for any kind of transmission, but the minute you disseminate any information you've received, you can be charged under law. So is it illegal to make and own a receiver? No, but the use of that receiver is where it gets gray. So to would this use of a bot. Its kinda like recording a movie and later selling it at a garage sale. You can watch the movie, they usually don't beef if you watch your recording. But when you sell it, or even loan it, for some reason they call that pirating. The other point is gathering information from a website. Is it copyrighted? Even when its an auction and changing often? Curious stuff in the least. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
List Members, I've been sitting back quietly watching this thread get over-baked over the past few days and finally decided I'd step in a make a comment. In his remarks, Jamie talks about his potential right to publish data that is extracted from publicly available documents. Personally, I believe that with this right comes a lot of responsibility. For example, did you know that if you've ever been a party in a divorce, arrested and charged with a crime, or been to Tax Court, the written records of those proceedings are public information? That is, unless the judge in the case sealed the records, which is rarely done. That means that I, or someone else, could access all court records involving Meteorite List members throughout the United States and publish those findings. Now wouldn't that be lovely? We'd know who the drunk drivers and the wife beaters were and we could sit in our chairs and snicker about all the nasty accusations that are part of every divorce trial. No thanks, I don't need to see it...even if it is publicly available information. You see, there is no beneficial value in doing so. Rather, it sounds like a good way to loose a bunch of friends to me. I don't see any real value to compiling information about Ebay sellers and purchasers either. Sure, you can figure out what's been selling well and what hasn't, and you can find out who has been spending the most money on meteorites lately...so what? Do you contact these buyers and offer to sell them more meteorites? I'm pretty sure that would be a violation of Ebay rules. How many list members are forty-hour-a-week Meteorite Market Analists anyway? Someone else mentioned something about getting a life. I vote for that. Best to all...but tired of the thread, John __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
John Gwilliam wrote: I've been sitting back quietly watching this thread get over-baked over the past few days and finally decided I'd step in a make a comment. In his remarks, Jamie talks about his potential right to publish data that is extracted from publicly available documents. Personally, I believe that with this right comes a lot of responsibility. I agree. Hence my 1. Soliciation for feedback and 2. My changes resulting from that feedback. For example, did you know that if you've ever been a party in a divorce, arrested and charged with a crime, or been to Tax Court, the written records of those proceedings are public information? That is, unless the judge in the case sealed the records, which is rarely done. That means that I, or someone else, could access all court records involving Meteorite List members throughout the United States and publish those findings. Now wouldn't that be lovely? We'd know who the drunk drivers and the wife beaters were and we could sit in our chairs and snicker about all the nasty accusations that are part of every divorce trial. No thanks, I don't need to see it...even if it is publicly available information. I didn't think I was reporting on crimes. You see, there is no beneficial value in doing so. Reporting on crimes? I dunno. Reporting aggregate data without names? Many folks -- including dealers -- think there's value. Rather, it sounds like a good way to loose a bunch of friends to me. At least I think I lost Mike Groetz as friend. Other than that, I've had some great conversations (almost all off list) on the topic. I don't see any real value to compiling information about Ebay sellers and purchasers either. Sure, you can figure out what's been selling well and what hasn't, and you can find out who has been spending the most money on meteorites lately...so what? I think I agree with you here. The Top N sellers and Top N buyers were just a curiosity for me. I don't think there was much news. Anyway, actual names were of little benefit and clearly troublesome. Hence my statements about changing my ways. Do you contact these buyers and offer to sell them more meteorites? No. As I mentioned in the first line of the note that started this thread, I haven't sold a single meteorite. Nor do I plan to. I'm pretty sure that would be a violation of Ebay rules. How many list members are forty-hour-a-week Meteorite Market Analists anyway? Probably 0. I spent two hours on this project -- and about six hours (and counting) with the subsequent email. Someone else mentioned something about getting a life. I vote for that. Thanks for the advice. --Jamie __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
Let me be the first to agree that this is an invasion of privacy. This is also not the place for "ebay analysis". We have been there and done that with another "former list member"Randy From: Jamie Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Meteorite List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:06:43 -0600 Listees, On the dealer/collector spectrum, I'm at the collector end. I haven't yet sold any meteorites (but I do need to thin out my collection a bit). Anyway, I am interested in the meteorite market dynamics. It's fun. Targeting Ebay, I exercised some software tools I have. I looked at completed "Meteorites, Tektites" category completed sales from 2003-10-10 to 2003-10-25 (the data that Ebay keeps easily available). Here are some interesting stats: [CAVEAT: I haven't thoroughly validated these results. Please consider them preliminary.] Items ended: 2036 Items sold: 1035 Number of unique sellers: 169 Number of unique winners: 413 Number of unique bidders: 815 Total sold: $57,951.60 Most expensive item sold: $6,736.00 More data below. I plan to start collecting data over time to see trends. If you're interested in the result, let me know. I'll post if there's sufficient interest. I'm mostly interested in the "demand side". Are more people bidding on meteorites? What else are they bidding on? Etc. Of course, I'm only looking at EBay -- as opposed to the large number of direct deals that I can't see. Some folks might gripe that I'm invading privacy. Yes? If so, lemme know. I can obfuscate identities. But folks can still figure out the identities from the EBay data. Please remember the caveat above, and send my any comments or questions. --Jamie Stephens Top 20 sellers making the most money: seller | # trans | usd ---+---+--- cometshop | 47 | 10634 finmet | 70 | 7436 meteoritehunter%40comcast.net | 80 | 4584 meteoritemarina | 17 | 3619 a.chondrite | 6 | 2145 mr-meteorite | 6 | 2132 flattoprocks | 30 | 1956 meteoritelab | 108 | 1937 katy2kary | 35 | 1710 meteoritehunters | 47 | 1374 17jack-anthony | 10 | 1141 meteoriten | 8 | 1044 illinoismeteorites | 12 | 1025 paolo2000 | 7 | 1018 3281958 | 2 | 1005 meteoriteusa.com | 22 | 940 meteorflash | 79 | 808 svassiliev | 18 | 736 meteoritesandmore | 63 | 628 litig8nshark | 6 | 516 (20 rows) Top 20 bidders spending the most money: bidder | usd | wins -+--+-- nickelironmonkey | 6787 | 2 dbgbogey | 2065 | 2 cat_berlin | 1848 | 3 peterutas%40aol.com | 1630 | 1 aggiemwd | 1525 | 1 pangeogem | 1447 | 3 meteorpassion | 1032 | 16 meteoritoeg | 1009 | 21 pat11260 | 978 | 7 tdaulton | 961 | 2 pema9 | 824 | 11 17jack-anthony | 817 | 10 starsandrocks | 795 | 4 sandro1921 | 770 | 1 alwaysdreaming.com | 760 | 1 3281958 | 732 | 6 illinoismeteorites | 632 | 14 centrosaurusred | 585 | 1 wols1 | 580 | 2 newforwu | 547 | 9 (20 rows) Top 20 EBay "traders", those buying and selling on EBay: seller |net usd| wins | sells --+---+--+--- meteoritesandmore | 593 | 3 | 63 docdavev45%40aol.com | 429 | 1 | 1 illinoismeteorites | 393 | 14 | 12 17jack-anthony | 324 | 10 | 10 3281958 | 273 | 6 | 2 jacinth2 | 248 | 2 | 14 phenomenologist | 22 | 3 | 4 birago123456 | 9 | 2 | 3 tigeroakantiques | 0 | 2 | 2 mi-meteorites | -51 | 2 | 3 jnbran | -52 | 1 | 6 driveahumlv | -60 | 2 | 2 pardelmops | -449 | 3 | 1 meteor4911 | -469 | 1 | 3 nickelironmonkey | -6738 | 2 | 1 (15 rows) __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Enjoy MSN 8 patented spam control and more with MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service. Try it FREE for one month! __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
In a message dated 10/28/2003 8:10:50 AM Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ... Now if someone could invent a mythical 'Meteorite gold standard' i.e. a standard price for a kilo of something (perhaps an average of many meteorites), We would then have something to compare prices with month by month.? And those worried about the price of an item dropping after they purchase it - could then purchase a futures contract as insurance! :) Juris Breikss [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
Goodday Folks, I have been following the thread about thecompilation of statistical information regarding the sales/purchases of meteorites on eBay. Personally, I found the compilation both interesting and informative and I have no objection to having been included inthe publishedcompilation. That having being said, I'd like to preface the following by stating that while I am by no means an expert in "cyber law", I am an attorney. I must admit that when "robots" were mentioned in a recent post to the list I had to do some research to try and figure out exactly what a robot was and what it did. I don't claim to be a computer programer/analyst either. Now that I have arough idea what a "robot" is and what it does I'd like to share some of my thoughts regarding the compilation of statistical information from eBay. I accessed eBay's policy regarding the use of robots on it's site. I agree withone writer'sproposition that one of thereasons eBay prohibits robots from accessing its site, in some circumstances, is to prevent a drain on its server. However, I can't entirely agree that that is eBay's primary goal. In October 1997, eBay was involved in a serious dispute with Onsale, a competitor, over Onsale's use of a robot program to harvest the email addresses of eBay users. (Note that in 1997 eBay made it much easier than it is today to access the email addresses of members.) Isuspect that it was subsequent to this dispute that eBay placed in its User Policy the prohibition against use of robots, spiders etc. It would appear that eBay is also interested in protecting itself from what it views as unfair competition. As can seen below in a paste of the pertinent part of eBay's user policy regarding Access and Interference, the use of robots is clearly prohibited absent express written permission from eBay. The policy language goes further in requiring that, even with eBay's express written permission to use a robot for the creation of a derivative work (compilation of statistical information) on any other member other than yourself, you are obligated to obtain the express written permission of the "third party," which I interpret to mean the party who's information you are seeking to compile. This, I believe, is intended, at least in part,to provide for some level of privacy for eBay members. From a strict reading ofeBay's policy language one could reasonably infer that it is not only the public dissemination of the compilation of statistical information that is being prohibited, absent the required express written permission of eBay and the third party affected, but also the private (unpublished) compilation itself. However, I sense thatthe prohibition of the compilation of statistical information for the purely private use of the compiler might not be enforceable in court andmight be attacked as being vague and overbroad given that eBay's softwareactually provides tools that allow for the compilation of such information. Granted, without the use of a robot program the compilation would be very time consuming,if not entirely impractical. Finally, putting asideany legal implications (as far as eBay is concerned)of compiling statistical information about eBay members, the publication of such information has the potential for what some might consider abuse. As an example, because the sale of items may have tax consequences fora sellerinsome countries, I can imagine a scenario where one disgruntled member might use, or threaten to use, the compiled information to the detriment of another member. Just a thought. The preceding has not been intended to provide legal advise regarding the compilation of statistical information from eBay resources. Ithas simply been my thoughts and personal opinions. Should you have specific questions along this line you should consult with an expert in "cyber law". Have a great day All. Best Regards, Paul Access and Interference. The Site contains robot exclusion headers. Much of the information on the Site is updated on a real time basis and is proprietary or is licensed to eBay by our users or third parties. You agree that you will not use any robot, spider, scraper or other automated means to access the Site for any purpose without our express written permission. Additionally, you agree that you will not: (i) take any action that imposes, or may impose in our sole discretion an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure; (ii) copy, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute or publicly display any content (except for Your Information) from the Site without the prior expressed written permission of eBay and the appropriate third party, as applicable; (iii) interfere or attempt to interfere with the proper working of the Site or any activities conducted on the Site; or (iv) bypass our robot exclusion headers or other measures we may use to prevent or restrict access to the Site.
Re: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
Dear Paul, List; I think this answers it enough for me. Very well done. Best windy days, Dave Freeman IMCA # 3864 eBay user ID mjwy (with some fantastic stuff running at auction right now, no meteorites though, don't want my information contaminating the robots lunch). [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good day Folks, I have been following the thread about the compilation of statistical information regarding the sales/purchases of meteorites on eBay. Personally, I found the compilation both interesting and informative and I have no objection to having been included in the published compilation. That having being said, I'd like to preface the following by stating that while I am by no means an expert in cyber law, I am an attorney. I must admit that when robots were mentioned in a recent post to the list I had to do some research to try and figure out exactly what a robot was and what it did. I don't claim to be a computer programer/analyst either. Now that I have a rough idea what a robot is and what it does I'd like to share some of my thoughts regarding the compilation of statistical information from eBay. I accessed eBay's policy regarding the use of robots on it's site. I agree with one writer's proposition that one of the reasons eBay prohibits robots from accessing its site, in some circumstances, is to prevent a drain on its server. However, I can't entirely agree that that is eBay's primary goal. In October 1997, eBay was involved in a serious dispute with Onsale, a competitor, over Onsale's use of a robot program to harvest the email addresses of eBay users. (Note that in 1997 eBay made it much easier than it is today to access the email addresses of members.) I suspect that it was subsequent to this dispute that eBay placed in its User Policy the prohibition against use of robots, spiders etc. It would appear that eBay is also interested in protecting itself from what it views as unfair competition. As can seen below in a paste of the pertinent part of eBay's user policy regarding Access and Interference, the use of robots is clearly prohibited absent express written permission from eBay. The policy language goes further in requiring that, even with eBay's express written permission to use a robot for the creation of a derivative work (compilation of statistical information) on any other member other than yourself, you are obligated to obtain the express written permission of the third party, which I interpret to mean the party who's information you are seeking to compile. This, I believe, is intended, at least in part, to provide for some level of privacy for eBay members. From a strict reading of eBay's policy language one could reasonably infer that it is not only the public dissemination of the compilation of statistical information that is being prohibited, absent the required express written permission of eBay and the third party affected, but also the private (unpublished) compilation itself. However, I sense that the prohibition of the compilation of statistical information for the purely private use of the compiler might not be enforceable in court and might be attacked as being vague and overbroad given that eBay's software actually provides tools that allow for the compilation of such information. Granted, without the use of a robot program the compilation would be very time consuming, if not entirely impractical. Finally, putting aside any legal implications (as far as eBay is concerned) of compiling statistical information about eBay members, the publication of such information has the potential for what some might consider abuse. As an example, because the sale of items may have tax consequences for a seller in some countries, I can imagine a scenario where one disgruntled member might use, or threaten to use, the compiled information to the detriment of another member. Just a thought. The preceding has not been intended to provide legal advise regarding the compilation of statistical information from eBay resources. It has simply been my thoughts and personal opinions. Should you have specific questions along this line you should consult with an expert in cyber law. Have a great day All. Best Regards, Paul Access and Interference. The Site contains robot exclusion headers. Much of the information on the Site is updated on a real time basis and is proprietary or is licensed to eBay by our users or third parties. You agree that you will not use any robot, spider, scraper or other automated means to access the Site for any purpose without our express written permission. Additionally, you agree that you will not: (i) take any action that imposes, or may impose in our sole discretion an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure; (ii) copy, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute or publicly display any content
Re: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
Listees, I'm gonna suspend any more preliminary analysis publishing. I've already started a discussion with EBay. Meanwhile, I'm gonna continue experimenting with the analysis. If/when I publish any more data, I'll obfuscate identities as I described previously. Probably most of the interesting analysis doesn't require identities anyway: Number of new bidders by week Number of new sellers by week Total items, dollars sold by week Distribution of prices by week Any debate over those stats? All of that data is now trivial to obtain (as the raw data accumulates). It'll be fun to see the EBay meteorite market trends in an objective and comprehensive way. Please stay tuned. This thread has evoled to non-meteoritical topics. Skip the rest if you're interested in meteorite stuff only. Paul, Very nice discussion. Yeah, when I said server load was EBay's primary concern, I meant -- but did not write -- in the context of my specific robot. For various reasons, I'd argue that it does not consitute a derivate work or otherwise challenges EBay's expressed concerns (not even privacy as discussed in their text). Here are the numbered items from the EBay paragraph you cite: (i) My stated primary concern; #1 on their list as well. (ii) There are lots of cases dealing with these terms. Is the fact that X bought Y from Z for $N enforceable content? Elsewhere EBay goes to trouble to position itself as a venue. Interesting. All arguable -- but not by me now. (iii) No interference with the site. (iv) No bypass of robot exclusions. That said, my (experimental) robot is probably in violation of EBay's User Agreement simply because the agreement prohibits all robots. No need to research it, Mike. Whether the agreement and other EBay statements would withstand challenges from a system like mine is a different matter -- one I'm not interested in pursuing. I'm asking permission. Aside: EBay's robot prohibition is muddled. They do allow for some automated means (e.g., auction and bidding tools). Also note http://www.ebay.com/robots.txt which, incidently, does not restrict the pages I use. Why not? BTW, my background includes lots of large-scale data integration work. Also I have fair amount of experience in intellectual property licensing (including user agreements); patent prosecution, infringement, and licensing; and other IP-related activities. But, as I frequently say in this context, IANAL. (I Am Not A Lawyer.) I do hang out with them a fair amount. At Christmas, they send me gifts, which I fear they bought with my money. Thanks for the feedback, Paul. --Jamie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good day Folks, I have been following the thread about the compilation of statistical information regarding the sales/purchases of meteorites on eBay. Personally, I found the compilation both interesting and informative and I have no objection to having been included in the published compilation. That having being said, I'd like to preface the following by stating that while I am by no means an expert in cyber law, I am an attorney. I must admit that when robots were mentioned in a recent post to the list I had to do some research to try and figure out exactly what a robot was and what it did. I don't claim to be a computer programer/analyst either. Now that I have a rough idea what a robot is and what it does I'd like to share some of my thoughts regarding the compilation of statistical information from eBay. I accessed eBay's policy regarding the use of robots on it's site. I agree with one writer's proposition that one of the reasons eBay prohibits robots from accessing its site, in some circumstances, is to prevent a drain on its server. However, I can't entirely agree that that is eBay's primary goal. In October 1997, eBay was involved in a serious dispute with Onsale, a competitor, over Onsale's use of a robot program to harvest the email addresses of eBay users. (Note that in 1997 eBay made it much easier than it is today to access the email addresses of members.) I suspect that it was subsequent to this dispute that eBay placed in its User Policy the prohibition against use of robots, spiders etc. It would appear that eBay is also interested in protecting itself from what it views as unfair competition. As can seen below in a paste of the pertinent part of eBay's user policy regarding *Access and Interference*, the use of robots is clearly prohibited absent express written permission from eBay. The policy language goes further in requiring that, even _with_ eBay's express written permission to use a robot for the creation of a derivative work (compilation of statistical information) on any other member other than yourself, you are obligated to obtain the express written permission of the third party, which I interpret to mean the party who's information you are seeking to compile. This, I believe, is intended, at
Re: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
Jamie, I think your decision to omit names is a good one. Anyone who follows ebay closely knows who is doing a lot or a little in general terms. It is simple to search specific buyers and sellers to see how much they have bought or sold over a period of time. Personally I could care less about those kinds of things(about individuals). Trends are interesting and your method of gathering info might enlighten the group as to what is going on over a period of time...say months. The two weeks that you did is just a brief snapshot in time that doesn't offer up too much information. Michael Blood could probably use this kind of trending for his monthly article. As for individual trends...well that certainly changes with time for most buyers. Many active individuals from a year or two ago hardly bid at all these days. Only a few continue to buy at a steady pace, spending a fair amount of money. Good luck trying to trend me and most others...it will mean nothing. Selling in bursts also happens for most...with the obvious few who are steady sellers from week to week. As for providing headswelling fodder and breaking news for those hungry for such attention and grand standing...well they are (I mean HE is) more than capable of letting us know about their offerings and conquests...usually in triplicate, BOLD LETTERS and profound statements. So send the trends and leave out the names is my vote. John Listees, I'm gonna suspend any more preliminary analysis publishing. I've already started a discussion with EBay. Meanwhile, I'm gonna continue experimenting with the analysis. If/when I publish any more data, I'll obfuscate identities as I described previously. Probably most of the interesting analysis doesn't require identities anyway: Number of new bidders by week Number of new sellers by week Total items, dollars sold by week Distribution of prices by week Any debate over those stats? All of that data is now trivial to obtain (as the raw data accumulates). It'll be fun to see the EBay meteorite market trends in an objective and comprehensive way. Please stay tuned. This thread has evoled to non-meteoritical topics. Skip the rest if you're interested in meteorite stuff only. Paul, Very nice discussion. Yeah, when I said server load was EBay's primary concern, I meant -- but did not write -- in the context of my specific robot. For various reasons, I'd argue that it does not consitute a derivate work or otherwise challenges EBay's expressed concerns (not even privacy as discussed in their text). Here are the numbered items from the EBay paragraph you cite: (i) My stated primary concern; #1 on their list as well. (ii) There are lots of cases dealing with these terms. Is the fact that X bought Y from Z for $N enforceable content? Elsewhere EBay goes to trouble to position itself as a venue. Interesting. All arguable -- but not by me now. (iii) No interference with the site. (iv) No bypass of robot exclusions. That said, my (experimental) robot is probably in violation of EBay's User Agreement simply because the agreement prohibits all robots. No need to research it, Mike. Whether the agreement and other EBay statements would withstand challenges from a system like mine is a different matter -- one I'm not interested in pursuing. I'm asking permission. Aside: EBay's robot prohibition is muddled. They do allow for some automated means (e.g., auction and bidding tools). Also note http://www.ebay.com/robots.txt which, incidently, does not restrict the pages I use. Why not? BTW, my background includes lots of large-scale data integration work. Also I have fair amount of experience in intellectual property licensing (including user agreements); patent prosecution, infringement, and licensing; and other IP-related activities. But, as I frequently say in this context, IANAL. (I Am Not A Lawyer.) I do hang out with them a fair amount. At Christmas, they send me gifts, which I fear they bought with my money. Thanks for the feedback, Paul. --Jamie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good day Folks, I have been following the thread about the compilation of statistical information regarding the sales/purchases of meteorites on eBay. Personally, I found the compilation both interesting and informative and I have no objection to having been included in the published compilation. That having being said, I'd like to preface the following by stating that while I am by no means an expert in cyber law, I am an attorney. I must admit that when robots were mentioned in a recent post to the list I had to do some research to try and figure out exactly what a robot was and what it did. I don't claim to be a computer programer/analyst either. Now that I have a rough idea what a robot is and what it does I'd like to
[meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
Listees, On the dealer/collector spectrum, I'm at the collector end. I haven't yet sold any meteorites (but I do need to thin out my collection a bit). Anyway, I am interested in the meteorite market dynamics. It's fun. Targeting Ebay, I exercised some software tools I have. I looked at completed Meteorites, Tektites category completed sales from 2003-10-10 to 2003-10-25 (the data that Ebay keeps easily available). Here are some interesting stats: [CAVEAT: I haven't thoroughly validated these results. Please consider them preliminary.] Items ended: 2036 Items sold: 1035 Number of unique sellers: 169 Number of unique winners: 413 Number of unique bidders: 815 Total sold: $57,951.60 Most expensive item sold: $6,736.00 More data below. I plan to start collecting data over time to see trends. If you're interested in the result, let me know. I'll post if there's sufficient interest. I'm mostly interested in the demand side. Are more people bidding on meteorites? What else are they bidding on? Etc. Of course, I'm only looking at EBay -- as opposed to the large number of direct deals that I can't see. Some folks might gripe that I'm invading privacy. Yes? If so, lemme know. I can obfuscate identities. But folks can still figure out the identities from the EBay data. Please remember the caveat above, and send my any comments or questions. --Jamie Stephens Top 20 sellers making the most money: seller | # trans | usd ---+---+--- cometshop |47 | 10634 finmet|70 | 7436 meteoritehunter%40comcast.net |80 | 4584 meteoritemarina |17 | 3619 a.chondrite | 6 | 2145 mr-meteorite | 6 | 2132 flattoprocks |30 | 1956 meteoritelab | 108 | 1937 katy2kary |35 | 1710 meteoritehunters |47 | 1374 17jack-anthony|10 | 1141 meteoriten| 8 | 1044 illinoismeteorites|12 | 1025 paolo2000 | 7 | 1018 3281958 | 2 | 1005 meteoriteusa.com |22 | 940 meteorflash |79 | 808 svassiliev|18 | 736 meteoritesandmore |63 | 628 litig8nshark | 6 | 516 (20 rows) Top 20 bidders spending the most money: bidder | usd | wins -+--+-- nickelironmonkey| 6787 |2 dbgbogey| 2065 |2 cat_berlin | 1848 |3 peterutas%40aol.com | 1630 |1 aggiemwd| 1525 |1 pangeogem | 1447 |3 meteorpassion | 1032 | 16 meteoritoeg | 1009 | 21 pat11260| 978 |7 tdaulton| 961 |2 pema9 | 824 | 11 17jack-anthony | 817 | 10 starsandrocks | 795 |4 sandro1921 | 770 |1 alwaysdreaming.com | 760 |1 3281958 | 732 |6 illinoismeteorites | 632 | 14 centrosaurusred | 585 |1 wols1 | 580 |2 newforwu| 547 |9 (20 rows) Top 20 EBay traders, those buying and selling on EBay: seller|net usd| wins | sells --+---+--+--- meteoritesandmore| 593 |3 |63 docdavev45%40aol.com | 429 |1 | 1 illinoismeteorites | 393 | 14 |12 17jack-anthony | 324 | 10 |10 3281958 | 273 |6 | 2 jacinth2 | 248 |2 |14 phenomenologist |22 |3 | 4 birago123456 | 9 |2 | 3 tigeroakantiques | 0 |2 | 2 mi-meteorites| -51 |2 | 3 jnbran | -52 |1 | 6 driveahumlv | -60 |2 | 2 pardelmops | -449 |3 | 1 meteor4911 | -469 |1 | 3 nickelironmonkey | -6738 |2 | 1 (15 rows) __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
Interesting stuff. I don't think it invades privacy since this is data everybody can compile. Actually, I am surprised not to see Rocketfella on that list of big spenders *g*. I am using another tool and have compiled data from the last 6800 meteorite auctions. It is useful for me to see how much people pay for different kinds of material. All in all I can say that prices for the better items are on the rise, slowly, but noticeably. The cheapo material is still cheap, and I find a trend that some of it is not selling at all. _ Best regards, Bernhard Rendelius Rems CEO RPGDot Network This outgoing mail has been virus-checked. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
Hi, I really like the information you listed as it can be a very valuable tool for those of us that sell on ebay. It is interesting to note who made the list, (I realize this is a narrow snapshot) but I was surprised at who was on it and also who wasn't. I for one have noticed a down trend in prices on almost every type of meteorite. Though recently the market seems to have stablized a bit. I made the list and don't consider it to be an invasion at all. Infact, I would like to see more of this type of information. Thanks, Ruben GarciaMr-Meteorite -- mark ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jamie, Thanks that was really interesting! Keep up the posts. I was relived to see I never made the top 20 spenders list :) ... Now if someone could invent a mythical 'Meteorite gold standard' i.e. a standard price for a kilo of something (perhaps an average of many meteorites), We would then have something to compare prices with month by month.? The thing with prices is there is no rational reason to them, it depends on the quality of each individual piece, who you are buying from, and even postage costs. - As I always say: Something is worth what you can get, nothing more. Cheers, Mark F. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
Phew My name didn't come up on the top 20 spenders. My wife occassionally looks in the meteorite email folder and this email would have stuck out and she would have looked. Hrmmm maybe I need to spend more or just beg for more allowance. James Carroll [Original Message] From: Jamie Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 10/28/2003 8:10:46 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary) Listees, On the dealer/collector spectrum, I'm at the collector end. I haven't yet sold any meteorites (but I do need to thin out my collection a bit). Anyway, I am interested in the meteorite market dynamics. It's fun. Targeting Ebay, I exercised some software tools I have. I looked at completed Meteorites, Tektites category completed sales from 2003-10-10 to 2003-10-25 (the data that Ebay keeps easily available). Here are some interesting stats: [CAVEAT: I haven't thoroughly validated these results. Please consider them preliminary.] Items ended: 2036 Items sold: 1035 Number of unique sellers: 169 Number of unique winners: 413 Number of unique bidders: 815 Total sold: $57,951.60 Most expensive item sold: $6,736.00 More data below. I plan to start collecting data over time to see trends. If you're interested in the result, let me know. I'll post if there's sufficient interest. I'm mostly interested in the demand side. Are more people bidding on meteorites? What else are they bidding on? Etc. Of course, I'm only looking at EBay -- as opposed to the large number of direct deals that I can't see. Some folks might gripe that I'm invading privacy. Yes? If so, lemme know. I can obfuscate identities. But folks can still figure out the identities from the EBay data. Please remember the caveat above, and send my any comments or questions. --Jamie Stephens Top 20 sellers making the most money: seller | # trans | usd ---+---+--- cometshop |47 | 10634 finmet|70 | 7436 meteoritehunter%40comcast.net |80 | 4584 meteoritemarina |17 | 3619 a.chondrite | 6 | 2145 mr-meteorite | 6 | 2132 flattoprocks |30 | 1956 meteoritelab | 108 | 1937 katy2kary |35 | 1710 meteoritehunters |47 | 1374 17jack-anthony|10 | 1141 meteoriten| 8 | 1044 illinoismeteorites|12 | 1025 paolo2000 | 7 | 1018 3281958 | 2 | 1005 meteoriteusa.com |22 | 940 meteorflash |79 | 808 svassiliev|18 | 736 meteoritesandmore |63 | 628 litig8nshark | 6 | 516 (20 rows) Top 20 bidders spending the most money: bidder | usd | wins -+--+-- nickelironmonkey| 6787 |2 dbgbogey| 2065 |2 cat_berlin | 1848 |3 peterutas%40aol.com | 1630 |1 aggiemwd| 1525 |1 pangeogem | 1447 |3 meteorpassion | 1032 | 16 meteoritoeg | 1009 | 21 pat11260| 978 |7 tdaulton| 961 |2 pema9 | 824 | 11 17jack-anthony | 817 | 10 starsandrocks | 795 |4 sandro1921 | 770 |1 alwaysdreaming.com | 760 |1 3281958 | 732 |6 illinoismeteorites | 632 | 14 centrosaurusred | 585 |1 wols1 | 580 |2 newforwu| 547 |9 (20 rows) Top 20 EBay traders, those buying and selling on EBay: seller|net usd| wins | sells --+---+--+--- meteoritesandmore| 593 |3 |63 docdavev45%40aol.com | 429 |1 | 1 illinoismeteorites | 393 | 14 |12 17jack-anthony | 324 | 10 |10 3281958 | 273 |6 | 2 jacinth2 | 248 |2 |14 phenomenologist |22 |3 | 4 birago123456 | 9 |2 | 3 tigeroakantiques | 0 |2 | 2 mi-meteorites| -51 |2 | 3 jnbran | -52 |1 | 6 driveahumlv | -60 |2 | 2 pardelmops | -449 |3 | 1 meteor4911 | -469 |1 | 3 nickelironmonkey | -6738 |2 | 1 (15 rows) __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http
Re: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
Listees, Thanks for the many comments. As I warned, the results are preliminary. One prominent seller pointed out important omissions in my data (items sold via Buy It Now in particular). I'm debugging and rerunning. Since there is sufficient interest and since the reports are not small, I'll set up a little Web page for future results. Stay tuned for a pointer. It'll be fun to look at data over time. --Jamie Jamie Stephens wrote: Listees, On the dealer/collector spectrum, I'm at the collector end. I haven't yet sold any meteorites (but I do need to thin out my collection a bit). Anyway, I am interested in the meteorite market dynamics. It's fun. Targeting Ebay, I exercised some software tools I have. I looked at completed Meteorites, Tektites category completed sales from 2003-10-10 to 2003-10-25 (the data that Ebay keeps easily available). Here are some interesting stats: [CAVEAT: I haven't thoroughly validated these results. Please consider them preliminary.] Items ended: 2036 Items sold: 1035 Number of unique sellers: 169 Number of unique winners: 413 Number of unique bidders: 815 Total sold: $57,951.60 Most expensive item sold: $6,736.00 More data below. I plan to start collecting data over time to see trends. If you're interested in the result, let me know. I'll post if there's sufficient interest. I'm mostly interested in the demand side. Are more people bidding on meteorites? What else are they bidding on? Etc. Of course, I'm only looking at EBay -- as opposed to the large number of direct deals that I can't see. Some folks might gripe that I'm invading privacy. Yes? If so, lemme know. I can obfuscate identities. But folks can still figure out the identities from the EBay data. Please remember the caveat above, and send my any comments or questions. --Jamie Stephens Top 20 sellers making the most money: seller | # trans | usd ---+---+--- cometshop |47 | 10634 finmet|70 | 7436 meteoritehunter%40comcast.net |80 | 4584 meteoritemarina |17 | 3619 a.chondrite | 6 | 2145 mr-meteorite | 6 | 2132 flattoprocks |30 | 1956 meteoritelab | 108 | 1937 katy2kary |35 | 1710 meteoritehunters |47 | 1374 17jack-anthony|10 | 1141 meteoriten| 8 | 1044 illinoismeteorites|12 | 1025 paolo2000 | 7 | 1018 3281958 | 2 | 1005 meteoriteusa.com |22 | 940 meteorflash |79 | 808 svassiliev|18 | 736 meteoritesandmore |63 | 628 litig8nshark | 6 | 516 (20 rows) Top 20 bidders spending the most money: bidder | usd | wins -+--+-- nickelironmonkey| 6787 |2 dbgbogey| 2065 |2 cat_berlin | 1848 |3 peterutas%40aol.com | 1630 |1 aggiemwd| 1525 |1 pangeogem | 1447 |3 meteorpassion | 1032 | 16 meteoritoeg | 1009 | 21 pat11260| 978 |7 tdaulton| 961 |2 pema9 | 824 | 11 17jack-anthony | 817 | 10 starsandrocks | 795 |4 sandro1921 | 770 |1 alwaysdreaming.com | 760 |1 3281958 | 732 |6 illinoismeteorites | 632 | 14 centrosaurusred | 585 |1 wols1 | 580 |2 newforwu| 547 |9 (20 rows) Top 20 EBay traders, those buying and selling on EBay: seller|net usd| wins | sells --+---+--+--- meteoritesandmore| 593 |3 |63 docdavev45%40aol.com | 429 |1 | 1 illinoismeteorites | 393 | 14 |12 17jack-anthony | 324 | 10 |10 3281958 | 273 |6 | 2 jacinth2 | 248 |2 |14 phenomenologist |22 |3 | 4 birago123456 | 9 |2 | 3 tigeroakantiques | 0 |2 | 2 mi-meteorites| -51 |2 | 3 jnbran | -52 |1 | 6 driveahumlv | -60 |2 | 2 pardelmops | -449 |3 | 1 meteor4911 | -469 |1 | 3 nickelironmonkey | -6738 |2 | 1 (15 rows) __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
