Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
From an earlier post, [Widmanstatten patterns] can happen in wrought iron alloys used for heat treating fixtures, aluminum alloys, copper alloys and very commonly in titanium alloys. It can also happen in HSLA alloys when improperly heat treated. While I personally dont have any pictures, I Googled it and came up with these: In iron alloys http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2002/widmanstatten.html http://doc.tms.org/ezMerchant/prodtms.nsf/ProductLookupItemID/MMTA-0001- 15/$FILE/MMTA-0001-15F.pdf?OpenElement http://metals.about.com/library/bldef-Widmanstatten-Structure.htm In Titanium http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai? http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecordmetadataPrefix=htmliden tifier=ADA070745 verb=getRecordmetadataPrefix=htmlidentifier=ADA070745 http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2000/C9/lecture3.pdf http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL_udi=B6TXD-4K719V7- 1_user=10_coverDate=07%2F25%2F2006_rdoc=1_fmt=_orig=search_sort=d view=c_acct=C50221_version=1_urlVersion=0_userid=10md5=8f512a19 205c0c408e41e0acd72c51b1 _udi=B6TXD-4K719V7-1_user=10_coverDate=07%2F25%2F2006_rdoc=1_fmt=_ orig=search_sort=dview=c_acct=C50221_version=1_urlVersion=0_us erid=10md5=8f512a19205c0c408e41e0acd72c51b1 http://www.springerlink.com/content/hm8447m741171048/ In copper http://www.copper.org/applications/cuni/corrosion_resistance_ni_alum_bro nze.html Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 http://www.nepra.com www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://www.rocketmaterials.org/ http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Kitt Deyarmin Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 4:31 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites You said it was incorrect to state that only meteorites exhibited a Widmanstatten pattern. What other materials exhibit a Widmanstatten pattern? Do you have pictures? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
You must have misread my post. I did not say high carbon steels had Widmanstatten structures. To the contrary, the alloys I listed do not have any carbon at all. The only steel I listed was HSLA and I mentioned that it is difficult to get Widmanstatten patterns in them. Pearlite is not the same as Widmanstatten, nor is martensite or bainite. Pearlite is a structure made of iron and iron carbide and only found in heat treated steels with carbon contents over 0.20% by weight. To confirm this, all you need to do is ask a professional metallurgist, but then thats what I am. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mr EMan Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 10:09 PM To: Gerald Flaherty; Sterling K. Webb; Drake; meteorite- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Dear Jerry, Why do you say WOW!? just WOW? I enjoy a good discussion like everyone else so imagine my disappointment in opening posts that just say Wow or Cool or Gosh... It is better to interact like this is a message board and not a chat room, in my opinion. If we all do so it will knock my mailbox down to under 200 messages a day. Thank you. Now to the discussion at hand. So while some were moved to awe at this alleged revelation, the fact remains to be proven that the pearlite/ferrite/cementite patterns in high carbon steel are correctly identified as Widmanstatten patterns proper. They are micro structures and not visible ASAIK to the naked eye. Plus they are artifacts of human industry. We have yet to have Drake confirm that these are other occurrences of Widmanstatten patterns found in other than meteorites. Elton --- Gerald Flaherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: WOW! Jerry Flaherty __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
You said it was incorrect to state that only meteorites exhibited a Widmanstatten pattern. What other materials exhibit a Widmanstatten pattern? Do you have pictures? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
Hi, Drake, ...Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. I'll bite. In what other materials can they be found? Long considered definitive hereabouts. I quote one source: Widmanstatten pattern or Thompson structure: This pattern does not appear in terrestrial iron ores. Its presence is diagnostic in the identification of a meteorite. Looking for a definition, I found that they form when steels are cooled at a critical rate from extremely high temperatures. It consists of ferrite and pearlite and has a cross-hatched appearance due to the ferrite having formed along certain crystallographic planes. What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
WOW! Jerry Flaherty - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hi, Drake, ...Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. I'll bite. In what other materials can they be found? Long considered definitive hereabouts. I quote one source: Widmanstatten pattern or Thompson structure: This pattern does not appear in terrestrial iron ores. Its presence is diagnostic in the identification of a meteorite. Looking for a definition, I found that they form when steels are cooled at a critical rate from extremely high temperatures. It consists of ferrite and pearlite and has a cross-hatched appearance due to the ferrite having formed along certain crystallographic planes. What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Zero. You have to fake at least pallasites for the fraud becoming profitable q.e.d. Would be nice to have a photo of the described products, if they show any similarity to Widmathompsopatures. (Cast irons display dendritic patterns). Martin, Frozen in Tucson. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Sterling K. Webb Gesendet: Donnerstag, 1. Februar 2007 00:43 An: Drake; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hi, Drake, ...Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. I'll bite. In what other materials can they be found? Long considered definitive hereabouts. I quote one source: Widmanstatten pattern or Thompson structure: This pattern does not appear in terrestrial iron ores. Its presence is diagnostic in the identification of a meteorite. Looking for a definition, I found that they form when steels are cooled at a critical rate from extremely high temperatures. It consists of ferrite and pearlite and has a cross-hatched appearance due to the ferrite having formed along certain crystallographic planes. What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
While it's true that the Widmanstatten pattern was first seen in meteorites, it is fairly commonly seen in terrestrial metal alloys. Metals are crystals when in solid form, and undergo allotropic phase changes when heated and cooled. Adding different metals together form alloys and these solutions form new phases. Even these new phases undergo phase changes when heated and cooled. So just having two metals in solution can create several different phases. Each of these phases have different melting points, solidification points, and temperatures at which these phase changes take place. All this is like water and salt... Water has a boiling point and a freezing point. Ice, liquid water, and steam are all phases. If you add salt, the boiling point is lowered and the freezing point is lowered. This is just a quick example of how one thing can change the phases of another. In metals its exactly the same thing, except there are actually several phases that exist when the metal alloy is in solid form. The Widmanstatten pattern is a geometrical pattern resulting from the formation of a new phase along certain crystallographic planes of the parent solid solution. The orientation of the lattice in the new phase are crystalographically related to the lattice in the parent phase. This can happen in wrought iron alloys used for heat treating fixtures, aluminum alloys, copper alloys and very commonly in titanium alloys. It can also happen in HSLA alloys when improperly heat treated. Sorry for rambling. I am in no way a meteorite expert, but I'm very passionate about metallurgy. I have looked at the Nantan and the Campo I have in my metallurgical laboratory. There is no way that some of the things I've seen could be made on earth in less than 4 billion years. If you want a quick lesson in metallurgy, I wrote a paper explaining some of the cool metallurgical stuff. http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/metallurgy_faq_v11.htm Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sterling K. Webb Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 6:43 PM To: Drake; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hi, Drake, ...Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. I'll bite. In what other materials can they be found? Long considered definitive hereabouts. I quote one source: Widmanstatten pattern or Thompson structure: This pattern does not appear in terrestrial iron ores. Its presence is diagnostic in the identification of a meteorite. Looking for a definition, I found that they form when steels are cooled at a critical rate from extremely high temperatures. It consists of ferrite and pearlite and has a cross-hatched appearance due to the ferrite having formed along certain crystallographic planes. What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
I agree, Zero. You could make nice Widmanstatten patterns in some stainless steel alloys like 303, the giant crystals I've seen would be virtually impossible and very expensive. The dendrites seen in cast irons are the crystals growing along the crystallographic planes as the metal solidifies. This is basically the same property in metals that also form the Widmanstatten patterns. It's also why snowflakes, and gemstones have their unique shapes; they are all growing crystals taking on the shape of their crystallographic planes, or atomic arrangement. (ie, salt is always a cube and an amethyst is always a tetrahedron.) Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Martin Altmann Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 7:21 PM To: 'Sterling K. Webb'; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Zero. You have to fake at least pallasites for the fraud becoming profitable q.e.d. Would be nice to have a photo of the described products, if they show any similarity to Widmathompsopatures. (Cast irons display dendritic patterns). Martin, Frozen in Tucson. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Sterling K. Webb Gesendet: Donnerstag, 1. Februar 2007 00:43 An: Drake; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hi, Drake, ...Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. I'll bite. In what other materials can they be found? Long considered definitive hereabouts. I quote one source: Widmanstatten pattern or Thompson structure: This pattern does not appear in terrestrial iron ores. Its presence is diagnostic in the identification of a meteorite. Looking for a definition, I found that they form when steels are cooled at a critical rate from extremely high temperatures. It consists of ferrite and pearlite and has a cross-hatched appearance due to the ferrite having formed along certain crystallographic planes. What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
Here a link with micropics of diverse etched steels ect. http://www.georgesbasement.com/Microstructures/Unknowns/Iron-Based/Specimen0 1.htm Just click on go to your analysis of Specimen n, to get more. Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Drake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 1. Februar 2007 01:54 An: 'Martin Altmann'; 'Sterling K. Webb'; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: RE: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites I agree, Zero. You could make nice Widmanstatten patterns in some stainless steel alloys like 303, the giant crystals I've seen would be virtually impossible and very expensive. The dendrites seen in cast irons are the crystals growing along the crystallographic planes as the metal solidifies. This is basically the same property in metals that also form the Widmanstatten patterns. It's also why snowflakes, and gemstones have their unique shapes; they are all growing crystals taking on the shape of their crystallographic planes, or atomic arrangement. (ie, salt is always a cube and an amethyst is always a tetrahedron.) Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Martin Altmann Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 7:21 PM To: 'Sterling K. Webb'; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Zero. You have to fake at least pallasites for the fraud becoming profitable q.e.d. Would be nice to have a photo of the described products, if they show any similarity to Widmathompsopatures. (Cast irons display dendritic patterns). Martin, Frozen in Tucson. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Sterling K. Webb Gesendet: Donnerstag, 1. Februar 2007 00:43 An: Drake; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hi, Drake, ...Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. I'll bite. In what other materials can they be found? Long considered definitive hereabouts. I quote one source: Widmanstatten pattern or Thompson structure: This pattern does not appear in terrestrial iron ores. Its presence is diagnostic in the identification of a meteorite. Looking for a definition, I found that they form when steels are cooled at a critical rate from extremely high temperatures. It consists of ferrite and pearlite and has a cross-hatched appearance due to the ferrite having formed along certain crystallographic planes. What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
Dear Jerry, Why do you say WOW!? just WOW? I enjoy a good discussion like everyone else so imagine my disappointment in opening posts that just say Wow or Cool or Gosh... It is better to interact like this is a message board and not a chat room, in my opinion. If we all do so it will knock my mailbox down to under 200 messages a day. Thank you. Now to the discussion at hand. So while some were moved to awe at this alleged revelation, the fact remains to be proven that the pearlite/ferrite/cementite patterns in high carbon steel are correctly identified as Widmanstatten patterns proper. They are micro structures and not visible ASAIK to the naked eye. Plus they are artifacts of human industry. We have yet to have Drake confirm that these are other occurrences of Widmanstatten patterns found in other than meteorites. Elton --- Gerald Flaherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: WOW! Jerry Flaherty __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
Dear Sterling; Why don't you ask the chinese? They seem to be the most interested in faking meteorites. Dave F. a non tucsonisti Sterling K. Webb wrote: Hi, Drake, ...Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. I'll bite. In what other materials can they be found? Long considered definitive hereabouts. I quote one source: Widmanstatten pattern or Thompson structure: This pattern does not appear in terrestrial iron ores. Its presence is diagnostic in the identification of a meteorite. Looking for a definition, I found that they form when steels are cooled at a critical rate from extremely high temperatures. It consists of ferrite and pearlite and has a cross-hatched appearance due to the ferrite having formed along certain crystallographic planes. What's the likelihood of fake meteorites being made that way? Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites That was I, and thank you. The Nital I was using was what I use for standard metallographic sample preparation at 2% to 5%. I see now I need a much higher concentration. I did find one metallurgical error in that it states that Widmanstatten patterns are unique to meteorites. That's not true. Drake Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes Drake Doc Dameräu President, NEPRA NAR Section 614 L3CC member TRA 9934 L3 www.nepra.com www.rocketmaterials.org http://home.sprynet.com/~monel/home.htm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:meteorite-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary K. Foote Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:21 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Etching Iron Meteorites
Hello List, I forget who was asking this morning, but Ruben Garcia has graciously allowed me to publish his in-depth article on cutting, etching and preserving iron meteorites to my site. For those interested the URL is; http://www.meteorite-dealers.com/etchingandpreservation.html Gary http://www.meteorite-dealers.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
