Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and Bob Haag's Venus Stone

[Robert Verish]

-- Original Message -
[meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and
Bob Haag's Venus Stone
Alexander Seidel gsac at gmx.net
Fri Feb 23 13:11:02 EST 2007

...

[Classification] could be done on the quite
unspectacular backside of the stone. 
Do you know why Bob Haag doesn´t want this to be
done? Perhaps this may have to do with the
ongoing Holbrook discussion in a way...

Best wishes,
Alex
Berlin/Germany
- End of Original Message --

Good question, Alex!

I don't see a down side for Bob Haag should he get his
"Venus Stone" classified.  The odds that the results
would show his stone is not paired to Holbrook look
quite good, and then Bob would find himself again the
sole owner of a unique Arizona meteorite.  
Wouldn't that be a plus?  

But, maybe there is a down side.  Maybe if it is shown
to be "not paired" to Holbrook, then its provenance
may become unsettled.  

That's why I hope that another piece can be
independently found.  Then we could get the name
Adamana (or Goodwater Ranch) approved and finally get
this in the books as an official Arizona meteorite. 

Bob V.
P.S. - I'm still looking for better images of the back
side of the "Venus Stone" in order to compare it to
images of large Holbrook stones with exposed,
weathered interior surfaces, but this is all that I
could find:

http://www.meteorman.org/Adamana.JPG

http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2003/October/holbrook.jpg

http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2004/December/holbrook.jpg

http://www.meteorite.com/gallery/mh_holbrook.jpg

http://www.nyrockman.com/gallery-pics/holbrook-1950.jpg

http://www.nyrockman.com/gallery-pics/holbrook-546.jpg

http://www.meteoriteimpact.com/images/holb.jpg

http://www.turnstone.ca/holbroo2.jpg

http://miac.uqac.ca/MIAC/26.jpg

<http://www.planetarium.montreal.qc.ca/Information/Expo_Meteorites/Images/fiches/image_holbrook1.jpg>

<http://www.carionmineraux.com/meteorite/meteorite_musee/holbrook_musee_1.jpg>

<http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/icons/main/14.jpg>



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Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and Bob Haag's Venus Stone

[Alexander Seidel]

Hi Bob,

thanks for your nice words, yes we´ve known each other 
from the list for almost a decade now...

> For one thing, over the past few years there have been
> advancements in stone cutting and sampling.  One
> method with uses a long, but small diameter, diamond
> coring device can extract enough groundmass to make a
> classification, but barely leave a mark on the
> specimen.

This is true. I did not have this in mind when I wrote
"never ever", but rather thought of some disturbing cut. 
It could be done on the quite unspectacular backside
of the stone. Do you know why Bob Haag doesn´t want
this to be done? Perhaps this may have to do with the
ongoing Holbrook discussion in a way...

Best wishes,
Alex
Berlin/Germany


> Hello Alex and All,
> 
> Well, Alex, it is almost 10 years now that we have
> been exchanging email and posting to this List, and
> over that entire time I have considered you my am
> besten freund.  And as the saying goes, "the more time
> goes by, the less things change".
> 
> And so, I can see that we are still in disagreement
> about cutting meteorites.  In fact, when you just
> wrote: 
> "NEVER EVER cut specimen like these just for the sake
> of getting some classification data", I am more in
> disagreement with your statement than ever before.
> 
> For one thing, over the past few years there have been
> advancements in stone cutting and sampling.  One
> method with uses a long, but small diameter, diamond
> coring device can extract enough groundmass to make a
> classification, but barely leave a mark on the
> specimen.
> 
> Admittedly this wouldn't be enough sample material to
> qualify for a type specimen, but with regards to this
> subject "Venus Stone", at least it can be classified
> and then we could finally put to rest this rumor that
> this stone and the Holbrook fall are related.  
> 
> Now, how I came to know this, will have to wait until
> my next post.
> 
> Guten morgen mein Freund,
> Bob V.  
> 
> ----------
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:34:30 +0100
> From: "Alexander Seidel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy
> Grail Find and Bob Haag's Venus Stone
> 
> 
> 
> This is one very special nice example of a
> flight-oriented meteorite, where the rule applies: 
> NEVER EVER cut specimen like these just for the sake
> of getting some classification data! Why? Because a
> cut would destroy the "character" of the piece!
> 
> And so we don?t know what?s inside this beautiful
> meteorite, we can only make some assumptions from
> non-destructive observation.
> 
> Alex
> Berlin/Germany
> --
>   
> 
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Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and Bob Haag's Venus Stone

[Robert Verish]

Hello Alex and All,

Well, Alex, it is almost 10 years now that we have
been exchanging email and posting to this List, and
over that entire time I have considered you my am
besten freund.  And as the saying goes, "the more time
goes by, the less things change".

And so, I can see that we are still in disagreement
about cutting meteorites.  In fact, when you just
wrote: 
"NEVER EVER cut specimen like these just for the sake
of getting some classification data", I am more in
disagreement with your statement than ever before.

For one thing, over the past few years there have been
advancements in stone cutting and sampling.  One
method with uses a long, but small diameter, diamond
coring device can extract enough groundmass to make a
classification, but barely leave a mark on the
specimen.

Admittedly this wouldn't be enough sample material to
qualify for a type specimen, but with regards to this
subject "Venus Stone", at least it can be classified
and then we could finally put to rest this rumor that
this stone and the Holbrook fall are related.  

Now, how I came to know this, will have to wait until
my next post.

Guten morgen mein Freund,
Bob V.  

--
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:34:30 +0100
From: "Alexander Seidel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy
Grail Find and Bob Haag's Venus Stone



This is one very special nice example of a
flight-oriented meteorite, where the rule applies: 
NEVER EVER cut specimen like these just for the sake
of getting some classification data! Why? Because a
cut would destroy the "character" of the piece!

And so we don?t know what?s inside this beautiful
meteorite, we can only make some assumptions from
non-destructive observation.

Alex
Berlin/Germany
--
  


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Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and Bob Haag's Venus Stone

[Robert Verish]

Thanks Ruben,
for the clarification about Larry's find looking like
a "typical Holbrook" in the interior.

My curiosity was piqued when I saw the first images of
Larry's find, because a portion of the surface that
wasn't covered in fusion crust looked like chondrules
that were weathering out of the matrix.  None of the
Holbrook L6 that I've seen ever had any chondrules
sticking out of the matrix.  

But most of the large Holbrook stones that I've seen
were relatively fresher, having been picked up soon
after the fall.  Maybe the rounded features on Larry's
find are the result of weathering.  Maybe over time,
what was originally a freshly exposed interior (which
produces a surface that geologist call "hackly") has
weathered into knobby, rounded features.

Here is a more recent image of Larry's find that shows
what I'm talking about:


Looking forward to seeing some close-up images of
Larry's find.  Sure would like to know what those
round things are.

Bob V.

--
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:42:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Ruben Garcia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] [SPAM] Re: 
Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and Bob Haag's Venus
Stone

Hi all,
I only saw tiny fragments of Larrys find (pieces my
friend Earl dug out of the very same hole) but they
were typical Holbrook. Also it was right in the middle
of the Holbrook Strewn Field and nowhere near the
Adamana find.

Ruben

Ruben Garcia
Phoenix, Arizona
--


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Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and Bob Haag's Venus Stone

[Moni Waiblinger]

Hi All again,

I am so under the weather with another relapse of a very bad cold!
Anyway, thank you for all your input.
I still wonder if Larry's might be related to Bob Haag's meteorite, Adamana.

http://www.nuggetshooter.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4794

Didn't he mention that it looks very different from an ordinary Holbrook 
meteorites with lots of chondrules and being exposed after many years.

Is this what the Adamana looks like?
Lots of chondrules?
But guess even if Larry has his classified, we will never know if it is 
paired with Bob's, right! ;-)


Back to the couch,
Moni




From: DNAndrews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and Bob 
Haag's Venus Stone

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:47:33 -0700

HeheheJohnny B should know better than to listen to me.   ;-)   That
story was conveyed to me by a person who lived in Adamana a few years
ago.  He has since passed away.  Also, it's the "Goodwater" area instead
of Goodman.  Anyway, this gentleman told me that they used some of the
"old" railroad base as fill for their corral.  I really don't think this
is the case now as that would be all cinders and the owners tell me
differently.

Bob Haag told me that the Adamana stone is an L6 and much older than the
Holbrook fall.  But if it was in a horse corral with horses, seems as if
that would age a meteorite quite differently?
Still all just speculation for now.
Dave (who removed the SPAM from the subject line  ;-)



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Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and Bob Haag's Venus Stone

[DNAndrews]

HeheheJohnny B should know better than to listen to me.   ;-)   That 
story was conveyed to me by a person who lived in Adamana a few years 
ago.  He has since passed away.  Also, it's the "Goodwater" area instead 
of Goodman.  Anyway, this gentleman told me that they used some of the 
"old" railroad base as fill for their corral.  I really don't think this 
is the case now as that would be all cinders and the owners tell me 
differently.

Bob Haag told me that the Adamana stone is an L6 and much older than the 
Holbrook fall.  But if it was in a horse corral with horses, seems as if 
that would age a meteorite quite differently?
Still all just speculation for now.
Dave (who removed the SPAM from the subject line  ;-)

Alexander Seidel wrote:

>Now this is what John Blennert wrote in another forum in July 2005, I just 
>found this via google:
>
>"Although Bob Haag won't cut a large enough piece off the Adamana mass to 
>properly be tested it is classed as an L5 by guess I think . The piece 
>originated by a rancher who dug up some dirt at the Goodman exit area to spead 
>in his barn or corrals. His ranch is in Adamana and the piece was discovered 
>while spreading the dirt. It sat on a fence pole as a curiosity for quite some 
>time before Bob bought it . The Adamana could be the nose cone to the Holbrook 
>L6 strewnfield since that was the direction of the fall. Bob bieng very clever 
>knows the piece has more value as an individual then as an oriented piece of a 
>known fall !! I think !! Happy Huntin John B."
>
>Best wishes,
>Alex
>Berlin/Germany
>
>
>  
>
>
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Re: [meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and Bob Haag's Venus Stone

[Alexander Seidel]

I am also the lucky owner of one of those Venus stone casts from Bob Haag. 
Beautiful! And you know why he called this one the "Venus stone"..?? :-)

This is one very special nice example of a flight-oriented meteorite, where the 
rule applies: NEVER EVER cut specimen like these just for the sake of getting 
some classification data! Why? Because a cut would destroy the "character" of 
the piece!

And so we don´t know what´s inside this beautiful meteorite, we can only make 
some assumptions from non-destructive observation.

Alex
Berlin/Germany

  
 Original-Nachricht 
Datum: 22 Feb 2007 18:11:00 UT
Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
CC: 
Betreff: [meteorite-list] Larry\'s Holbrook Holy Grail Find and Bob Haag\'s 
Venus Stone

> Hello Moni and List,
> 
> Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Dave Andrews wrote to the List:
> 
> Hi List, The Adamana or "Venus Stone" was found in the Adamana landfill.
> Near the Petrified Forest/Painted Desert boundary. (about 15 miles NE of
> Holbrook on I-40). Evidently someone just didn't want it anymore or didn't
> know what they had. It was found by a rancher target practicing with his
> 0.22 rifle. With the selling of the piece to Bob, I heard he purchased a
> new mobile home to live in. I have one of the casts, and it looks very
> real.
> It looks so real, that I think I'll put it up on eBay with a $15,000
> reserve.
> (just kidding :o) Regards, Dave
> 
> 
> I got one of these casts too many years ago and they do look real!
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Bernd
> 
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[meteorite-list] Larry's Holbrook Holy Grail Find and Bob Haag's Venus Stone

[bernd . pauli]

Hello Moni and List,

Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Dave Andrews wrote to the List:

Hi List, The Adamana or "Venus Stone" was found in the Adamana landfill.
Near the Petrified Forest/Painted Desert boundary. (about 15 miles NE of
Holbrook on I-40). Evidently someone just didn't want it anymore or didn't
know what they had. It was found by a rancher target practicing with his
0.22 rifle. With the selling of the piece to Bob, I heard he purchased a
new mobile home to live in. I have one of the casts, and it looks very real.
It looks so real, that I think I'll put it up on eBay with a $15,000 reserve.
(just kidding :o) Regards, Dave


I got one of these casts too many years ago and they do look real!

Best wishes,

Bernd

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