Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Blogger is changing their template format. No word on hAtom [1] Regards, etc... David [1] http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/09/02/on-open-letter-to-blogger/ On 9/21/06, Stephen Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I definately vote picking one standard and sticking to it. As with date formats, this may cause problems (ie, on blogger I still can't use proper hAtom), but this is the sort of thing that may be dealt with LATER in a MATURE uF community (or at least a mature uF). Parsers like only having one format to work with. Let people display what they will, the machine-readable should be consolidated. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Hello Andy, On 9/21/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes What I'm arguing is that... we should throw an iso4127 class name in there too so that other currency codes (besides ISO 4127) could be used too without (potentially) breaking this or other Semantic HTML systems (that either exist now or will exist in the future) for marking up currency. What currency code uses CDN for Canadian dollars - or we going to have people inventing their own currency codes, too? Well... I use CDN. (I'm Canadian BTW.) Until I read the ISO 4127 spec, I don't think I've noticed CAD being used. But I've seen CDN all over the place. Even at the currency exchage stores (that I've been to) I believe they use CDN. It's a defacto standard. (Just because ISO doesn't give CDN its blessing and tells people to use CAD doesn't mean people will.) I'm not disputing that it's used; you've said ...other currency codes (besides ISO 4127) could be used...; and I'm asking what currency code uses CDN. Seems you can't name one. I think I understand you question now. The answer is that I do NOT think this is any body like ISO or ANSI that has CDN as a currency code. It is only a defacto standard used by Canadians. (And maybe others... but I don't have enough info to confirm or deny that.) See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ Make Televisionhttp://maketelevision.com/ ___ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Hello David, Just out of curiosity, was this inside or outside of Canada? On 9/21/06, David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll just jump in here: I've worked in finance, treasury, risk management and banking for the last 10 years. I've only seen CAD used technically to refer to Canadian dollars and anyone, from a banking/finance _technical_ perspective, is probably mostly interested in consuming that form of currency information. Regards, etc... David On 9/21/06, Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, On 9/21/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes What I'm arguing is that... we should throw an iso4127 class name in there too so that other currency codes (besides ISO 4127) could be used too without (potentially) breaking this or other Semantic HTML systems (that either exist now or will exist in the future) for marking up currency. What currency code uses CDN for Canadian dollars - or we going to have people inventing their own currency codes, too? Well... I use CDN. (I'm Canadian BTW.) Until I read the ISO 4127 spec, I don't think I've noticed CAD being used. But I've seen CDN all over the place. Even at the currency exchage stores (that I've been to) I believe they use CDN. It's a defacto standard. (Just because ISO doesn't give CDN its blessing and tells people to use CAD doesn't mean people will.) As far as people inventing their own currency codes an organization like ISO or ANSI creating standards codes is really no different from any group doing it. They are just groups of people. After all... if you want to exclude one group... the W3C might say that we here at Microformats.org should not be allowed to create web standards. (We basically say f*** you. We don't need your blessing.) Why not make the standard we are creating be extensible (by making the type of currency code being used be marked explicitly... with the iso4127 class in our case)? That way it will be useful to more people. (That way it will be useful to people who aren't using ISO 4127 cods.) And thus this Microformat will have a better chance of being used. (Also, it can make it so that different groups won't have conflicting ways of marking up currency. And we won't get a big mess.) So... I'm NOT saying that we should NOT use ISO 4127 codes. (I actually think we should use them.) I'm just saying that we should mark that we are using ISO 4127 codes (via a iso4127 class) so that people can use other currency codes too (and not have a bid confused mess). See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ Make Televisionhttp://maketelevision.com/ ___ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Hello Scott, On 9/21/06, Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 21, 2006, at 9:32 PM, Stephen Paul Weber wrote: Parsers like only having one format to work with. Let people display what they will, the machine-readable should be consolidated. I agree. Publishers also like having only one format to work with. But sometimes they change their mind on what that single standard format should be. At one time, everyone wanted to use RFC 822 dates. (Like Thu, 21 Dec 2000 16:01:07 +0200.) But no longer. Now everyone wants to use ISO 8601 dates. (Like 2004-02-12T15:19:21+00:00.) In the future people could change their mind yet again. For currencies... We could specify one standard currency -- ISO 4127 3 letter codes -- for now (which would make these people happy). But also think to the future about if people change out minds (and don't want to use ISO 4127 anymore) and just add the iso4127 class in there so we can gracefully migrate in the future. See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ Make Televisionhttp://maketelevision.com/ ___ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
On Sep 22, 2006, at 1:54 PM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: For currencies... We could specify one standard currency -- ISO 4127 3 letter codes -- for now (which would make these people happy). But also think to the future about if people change out minds (and don't want to use ISO 4127 anymore) and just add the iso4127 class in there so we can gracefully migrate in the future. It sounds like you're suggesting we put a profile in the class attribute. HTML already provides a mechanism for specifying the exact meaning of the markup: http://microformats.org/wiki/profile-uris If what we mean by class=currency changes, we can indicate that by using a different profile. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Hello Scott, On 9/22/06, Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 22, 2006, at 1:54 PM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: For currencies... We could specify one standard currency -- ISO 4127 3 letter codes -- for now (which would make these people happy). But also think to the future about if people change out minds (and don't want to use ISO 4127 anymore) and just add the iso4127 class in there so we can gracefully migrate in the future. It sounds like you're suggesting we put a profile in the class attribute. HTML already provides a mechanism for specifying the exact meaning of the markup: http://microformats.org/wiki/profile-uris If what we mean by class=currency changes, we can indicate that by using a different profile. Yeah That could be a solution. Although it might not solve cases where someone wants to have more than one style of currency code on the same page... but we could ignore that due to the 80/20 principle we've been going by. See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ Make Televisionhttp://maketelevision.com/ ___ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
For example, with ISO 4127, Canadian Dollars has the code CAD. However, I have also seen the code CDN used for Canadian Dollars. I don't believe 'CDN' is from a standard... it's a common misnomer ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Hello, On 9/21/06, Stephen Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For example, with ISO 4127, Canadian Dollars has the code CAD. However, I have also seen the code CDN used for Canadian Dollars. I don't believe 'CDN' is from a standard... it's a common misnomer I agree that no organization like ISO or ANSI created a specification for that code. But that does NOT prevent from being a standard. (Think defacto standard.) You do NOT need the blessing of any organization to get a standard. You just need enough people (within a group) using it. CDN is used by ALOT of people. See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ Make Televisionhttp://maketelevision.com/ ___ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Charles Iliya Krempeaux mumbled the following on 21/09/2006 17:59: Hello, On 9/21/06, Stephen Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For example, with ISO 4127, Canadian Dollars has the code CAD. However, I have also seen the code CDN used for Canadian Dollars. I don't believe 'CDN' is from a standard... it's a common misnomer I agree that no organization like ISO or ANSI created a specification for that code. But that does NOT prevent from being a standard. (Think defacto standard.) You do NOT need the blessing of any organization to get a standard. You just need enough people (within a group) using it. CDN is used by ALOT of people. Poor web design techniques are used by ALOT of people - doesn't mean they're right. If microformats were to become popular enough, as well the inherent benefits, it could also indirectly correct people on an issue such as this. -- Regards, Gazza ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Hello, On 9/21/06, Gazza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Charles Iliya Krempeaux mumbled the following on 21/09/2006 17:59: Hello, On 9/21/06, Stephen Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For example, with ISO 4127, Canadian Dollars has the code CAD. However, I have also seen the code CDN used for Canadian Dollars. I don't believe 'CDN' is from a standard... it's a common misnomer I agree that no organization like ISO or ANSI created a specification for that code. But that does NOT prevent from being a standard. (Think defacto standard.) You do NOT need the blessing of any organization to get a standard. You just need enough people (within a group) using it. CDN is used by ALOT of people. Poor web design techniques are used by ALOT of people - doesn't mean they're right. If microformats were to become popular enough, as well the inherent benefits, it could also indirectly correct people on an issue such as this. But aren't Microformats about just documenting what people are already doing. (I.e., the cows path thing.) Instead of trying to TELL THEM what they should or must be doing. If that's the case, then shouldn't we be documenting and allowing things like CDN in a currency Microformat too. Since CDN is very very common. And so many people use it. And not forcing them to use CAD (or else). Because honestly... until I did this last currency globalization project (for work) I ALWAYS used CDN'. And only used CAD now because we as a team choose to use ISO 4127 codes. But I don't think people are going to obey this on the organic Internet. (They'll just do what they want to a large extent... which is good.) See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ Make Televisionhttp://maketelevision.com/ ___ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Hello Joe, On 9/21/06, Joe Andrieu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: But aren't Microformats about just documenting what people are already doing. (I.e., the cows path thing.) Instead of trying to TELL THEM what they should or must be doing. If that's the case, then shouldn't we be documenting and allowing things like CDN in a currency Microformat too. Since CDN is very very common. And so many people use it. And not forcing them to use CAD (or else). Because honestly... until I did this last currency globalization project (for work) I ALWAYS used CDN'. And only used CAD now because we as a team choose to use ISO 4127 codes. But I don't think people are going to obey this on the organic Internet. (They'll just do what they want to a large extent... which is good.) I think you are missing the whole point of a public standard. Microformats exists to tell people what to do. ;) That sounds a bit funny, but I'm serious. Without clear direction from a standard, people use/do whatever seems convenient, hence CDN and 7/3/06 for July 3, 2006. And that type of convenience makes it hard for computers to understand the meaning. With a standard, people who want to be understood by more people and applications can do what the standard tells them to do. The reason for using ISO standards (or other completed specifications) instead of coming up with our own from the ground up is because we don't want to repeat the work. ISO has spent a lot of time discussing and debating the various merits of different options. We don't need to repeat those conversations and spend that time reinventing what already works. That's where the cow paths come in. Your points about CDN are precisely the type of debate we can avoid by starting with an existing standard. It isn't that your points are invalid, it's that a full discussion of the topic is a much bigger workload than collating and converging from existing standards. Plus, with uF you can put CAD in an ABBR tag and continue to use CDN in the user-visible region, if you like. So, you aren't really losing much other than ambiguity. Would you agree that adopting the ISO date format saved us work? Seems to me that adopting the ISO currency abbreviations also saves us work, for the same reasons. Yes, I agree that we should be using ISO 4127 codes. (I guess my original argumement has gotten lost in the blast of e-mails.) What I'm arguing is that... we should throw an iso4127 class name in there too so that other currency codes (besides ISO 4127) could be used too without (potentially) breaking this or other Semantic HTML systems (that either exist now or will exist in the future) for marking up currency. That way we say... here, we have a currency symbol, and we are giving a machine readable code in ISO 4127 format. (Did I explain that well?) See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ Make Televisionhttp://maketelevision.com/ ___ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I, too, will testify that Tantek's just-the-facts-ma'am writing style grows on one over time. I can assure you it won't grow on me; though just the facts would be an improvement on his recent messages. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes What I'm arguing is that... we should throw an iso4127 class name in there too so that other currency codes (besides ISO 4127) could be used too without (potentially) breaking this or other Semantic HTML systems (that either exist now or will exist in the future) for marking up currency. What currency code uses CDN for Canadian dollars - or we going to have people inventing their own currency codes, too? -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
On Sep 21, 2006, at 1:26 PM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: Yes, I agree that we should be using ISO 4127 codes. (I guess my original argumement has gotten lost in the blast of e-mails.) What I'm arguing is that... we should throw an iso4127 class name in there too so that other currency codes (besides ISO 4127) could be used too without (potentially) breaking this or other Semantic HTML systems (that either exist now or will exist in the future) for marking up currency. I don't think so. The currency type doesn't belong in the class name because it's content. It's published today in visible text (even when only as $), and we shouldn't be hiding information. And ISO codes don't belong in a class name simply because they are less comprehensible to publishers than something in plain English like currency. As Joe pointed out, we can do something like abbr class=currency title=CADCDN/abbr, so I don't see how this would constrain publishers at all. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Hello, On 9/21/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes What I'm arguing is that... we should throw an iso4127 class name in there too so that other currency codes (besides ISO 4127) could be used too without (potentially) breaking this or other Semantic HTML systems (that either exist now or will exist in the future) for marking up currency. What currency code uses CDN for Canadian dollars - or we going to have people inventing their own currency codes, too? Well... I use CDN. (I'm Canadian BTW.) Until I read the ISO 4127 spec, I don't think I've noticed CAD being used. But I've seen CDN all over the place. Even at the currency exchage stores (that I've been to) I believe they use CDN. It's a defacto standard. (Just because ISO doesn't give CDN its blessing and tells people to use CAD doesn't mean people will.) As far as people inventing their own currency codes an organization like ISO or ANSI creating standards codes is really no different from any group doing it. They are just groups of people. After all... if you want to exclude one group... the W3C might say that we here at Microformats.org should not be allowed to create web standards. (We basically say f*** you. We don't need your blessing.) Why not make the standard we are creating be extensible (by making the type of currency code being used be marked explicitly... with the iso4127 class in our case)? That way it will be useful to more people. (That way it will be useful to people who aren't using ISO 4127 cods.) And thus this Microformat will have a better chance of being used. (Also, it can make it so that different groups won't have conflicting ways of marking up currency. And we won't get a big mess.) So... I'm NOT saying that we should NOT use ISO 4127 codes. (I actually think we should use them.) I'm just saying that we should mark that we are using ISO 4127 codes (via a iso4127 class) so that people can use other currency codes too (and not have a bid confused mess). See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ Make Televisionhttp://maketelevision.com/ ___ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Hello, On 9/21/06, Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 21, 2006, at 1:26 PM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: Yes, I agree that we should be using ISO 4127 codes. (I guess my original argumement has gotten lost in the blast of e-mails.) What I'm arguing is that... we should throw an iso4127 class name in there too so that other currency codes (besides ISO 4127) could be used too without (potentially) breaking this or other Semantic HTML systems (that either exist now or will exist in the future) for marking up currency. I don't think so. The currency type doesn't belong in the class name because it's content. It's published today in visible text (even when only as $), and we shouldn't be hiding information. And ISO codes don't belong in a class name simply because they are less comprehensible to publishers than something in plain English like currency. As Joe pointed out, we can do something like abbr class=currency title=CADCDN/abbr, so I don't see how this would constrain publishers at all. Hmmm... that's an interesting way of doing it. But I was thinking more from the point of view of web developers who want to use other currency codes besides ISO 4127. (So, for example, they'd want to put CDN or whatever in the title attribute.) Today ISO 4127 is popular. Tomorrow, there may be some new standard that everyone wants to use. (This type of thing has happened over and over again. I'm trying to be forward looking with my proposal.) Having an iso4127 class would make it so you could GRACEFULLY migrate between the 2 standards. (Instead of having a incompatibility mess.) And could even have old and new standards being used side by side (on the same web page). (And, BTW, I still like using ¤ (or curren; or #164;) instead of currency as the class name. But that's a separate argument.) See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ Make Televisionhttp://maketelevision.com/ ___ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes What I'm arguing is that... we should throw an iso4127 class name in there too so that other currency codes (besides ISO 4127) could be used too without (potentially) breaking this or other Semantic HTML systems (that either exist now or will exist in the future) for marking up currency. What currency code uses CDN for Canadian dollars - or we going to have people inventing their own currency codes, too? Well... I use CDN. (I'm Canadian BTW.) Until I read the ISO 4127 spec, I don't think I've noticed CAD being used. But I've seen CDN all over the place. Even at the currency exchage stores (that I've been to) I believe they use CDN. It's a defacto standard. (Just because ISO doesn't give CDN its blessing and tells people to use CAD doesn't mean people will.) I'm not disputing that it's used; you've said ...other currency codes (besides ISO 4127) could be used...; and I'm asking what currency code uses CDN. Seems you can't name one. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Looks like there are many others: There are various common abbreviations to distinguish the Canadian dollar from others: while the ISO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Organization_for_Standardization currency code http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_4217 *CAD* (a three-character code without monetary symbols http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_sign) is common, no single system is universally accepted. *C$* is recommended by the Canadian government (e.g., per /The Canadian Style/ guide) and is used by the International Monetary Fund http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Monetary_Fund, while /Editing Canadian English/ indicates *Can$* and *CDN$*; both guides note the ISO scheme/code. The abbreviation *CA$* is also used, e.g., in some software packages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_dollar Guillaume Andy Mabbett wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes What I'm arguing is that... we should throw an iso4127 class name in there too so that other currency codes (besides ISO 4127) could be used too without (potentially) breaking this or other Semantic HTML systems (that either exist now or will exist in the future) for marking up currency. What currency code uses CDN for Canadian dollars - or we going to have people inventing their own currency codes, too? Well... I use CDN. (I'm Canadian BTW.) Until I read the ISO 4127 spec, I don't think I've noticed CAD being used. But I've seen CDN all over the place. Even at the currency exchage stores (that I've been to) I believe they use CDN. It's a defacto standard. (Just because ISO doesn't give CDN its blessing and tells people to use CAD doesn't mean people will.) I'm not disputing that it's used; you've said ...other currency codes (besides ISO 4127) could be used...; and I'm asking what currency code uses CDN. Seems you can't name one. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
I'll just jump in here: I've worked in finance, treasury, risk management and banking for the last 10 years. I've only seen CAD used technically to refer to Canadian dollars and anyone, from a banking/finance _technical_ perspective, is probably mostly interested in consuming that form of currency information. Regards, etc... David On 9/21/06, Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, On 9/21/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes What I'm arguing is that... we should throw an iso4127 class name in there too so that other currency codes (besides ISO 4127) could be used too without (potentially) breaking this or other Semantic HTML systems (that either exist now or will exist in the future) for marking up currency. What currency code uses CDN for Canadian dollars - or we going to have people inventing their own currency codes, too? Well... I use CDN. (I'm Canadian BTW.) Until I read the ISO 4127 spec, I don't think I've noticed CAD being used. But I've seen CDN all over the place. Even at the currency exchage stores (that I've been to) I believe they use CDN. It's a defacto standard. (Just because ISO doesn't give CDN its blessing and tells people to use CAD doesn't mean people will.) As far as people inventing their own currency codes an organization like ISO or ANSI creating standards codes is really no different from any group doing it. They are just groups of people. After all... if you want to exclude one group... the W3C might say that we here at Microformats.org should not be allowed to create web standards. (We basically say f*** you. We don't need your blessing.) Why not make the standard we are creating be extensible (by making the type of currency code being used be marked explicitly... with the iso4127 class in our case)? That way it will be useful to more people. (That way it will be useful to people who aren't using ISO 4127 cods.) And thus this Microformat will have a better chance of being used. (Also, it can make it so that different groups won't have conflicting ways of marking up currency. And we won't get a big mess.) So... I'm NOT saying that we should NOT use ISO 4127 codes. (I actually think we should use them.) I'm just saying that we should mark that we are using ISO 4127 codes (via a iso4127 class) so that people can use other currency codes too (and not have a bid confused mess). See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ Make Televisionhttp://maketelevision.com/ ___ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
A little detail. Shoulnd't it be: abbr class=currency title=Canadian dollarC$/abbr ? CAD being itself an abbreviation. BTW, I think in this context currency as a class name makes sense. I proposed earlier having a currencyamount class name that would contain a value (expressed as text or numerical) and and optionally a currency (optional b/c if we imagine a table of 1000s or rows containing currency amounts, we may not want to have the currency symbol/code next to each entry, but only in the th). span class=currencyamount100abbr class=currency title=Euroeuro;/abbr/span. Guillaume Andy Mabbett wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Guillaume Lebleu [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Looks like there are many others: There are various common abbreviations to distinguish the Canadian dollar from others: while the ISO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna tional_Organization_for_Standardization currency code http://en.wikip edia.org/wiki/ISO_4217 *CAD* (a three-character code without monetary symbols http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_sign) is common, no single system is universally accepted. *C$* is recommended by the Canadian government (e.g., per /The Canadian Style/ guide) and is used by the International Monetary Fund http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern ational_Monetary_Fund, while /Editing Canadian English/ indicates *Can$* and *CDN$*; both guides note the ISO scheme/code. The abbreviation *CA$* is also used, e.g., in some software packages. Any of which can be marked up thus: abbr class=currency title-CADC$/abbr [1] since any of them is a symbol representing CAD. [1] or whatever class we eventually decide on. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
On 9/21/06 3:34 PM, Guillaume Lebleu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looks like there are many others: There are various common abbreviations to distinguish the Canadian dollar from others: while the ISO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Organization_for_Standardization currency code http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_4217 *CAD* (a three-character code without monetary symbols http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_sign) is common, no single system is universally accepted. *C$* is recommended by the Canadian government (e.g., per /The Canadian Style/ guide) and is used by the International Monetary Fund http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Monetary_Fund, while /Editing Canadian English/ indicates *Can$* and *CDN$*; both guides note the ISO scheme/code. The abbreviation *CA$* is also used, e.g., in some software packages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_dollar Guillaume, This is excellent research on existing currency formats, could you add it to the currency-formats page? http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-formats Thanks! Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
On Sep 21, 2006, at 9:32 PM, Stephen Paul Weber wrote: Parsers like only having one format to work with. Let people display what they will, the machine-readable should be consolidated. I agree. Publishers also like having only one format to work with. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
On Sep 20, 2006, at 11:25 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: I have, therefore, put up a straw-man proposal, at: http://microformats.org/wiki/currency- brainstorming#Straw_man_proposal Please feel free to critique it, and, in particular, highlight any examples for which it does not cater. Nesting the amount within the currency seems wrong. E.g.: abbr class=currency title=USD span class=amount42.67/span /abbr Isn't this suggesting that 42.67 is an abbreviation for USD? More generally, if the currency isn't published anywhere, doesn't that make it out of scope for microformats? Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
looks very good - nice and simple and functional :) On 9/20/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The proposal for a 'currency' microformat, for marking-up amounts of money, seems moribund. This is unfortunate, as a number of other formats (hListing, job, hReview, book, etc.), might make use of it. I have, therefore, put up a straw-man proposal, at: http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-brainstorming#Straw_man_proposal Please feel free to critique it, and, in particular, highlight any examples for which it does not cater. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- - Stephen Paul Weber, Amateur Writer http://www.awriterz.org MSN/GTalk/Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ/AIM: 103332966 NSA: [EMAIL PROTECTED] BLOG: http://singpolyma-tech.blogspot.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Hello Andy, I didn't completely follow all of the last currency thread. (Got busy at work, and lost track of the thread.) But here's what we are doing... Something that renders as... $5.00 Would have the markup... abbr class=iso4217 #164; title=CAD$/abbr5.00 Also... I add the following style right in there to... style=text-decoration:none;border:0; (to make it look better). But I didn't want to add non-essential stuff in the example above, so it's not in there. Note that #164; is the currency symbol -- ¤. See the following for more info on that symbol... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_%28typography%29 Also, the ISO 4217 specification specifies those 3 letter currency codes. I'll provide a link to it once this software upgrade launches. (It was suppose to have launched yesterday, but the in-house user testing is slowing it down. They keep on finding bugs.) But it's part of this site... http://marketplace.bell.ca/ See ya On 9/20/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The proposal for a 'currency' microformat, for marking-up amounts of money, seems moribund. This is unfortunate, as a number of other formats (hListing, job, hReview, book, etc.), might make use of it. I have, therefore, put up a straw-man proposal, at: http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-brainstorming#Straw_man_proposal Please feel free to critique it, and, in particular, highlight any examples for which it does not cater. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ Make Televisionhttp://maketelevision.com/ ___ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Stephen Paul Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes looks very good - nice and simple and functional :) Thank you. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I didn't completely follow all of the last currency thread. (Got busy at work, and lost track of the thread.) I think it meandered somewhat... But here's what we are doing... Something that renders as... $5.00 Would have the markup... abbr class=iso4217 #164; title=CAD$/abbr5.00 Interesting, but is iso42172 better than currency? Andy why is the currency symbol (#164;) needed there? -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Hello Andy, On 9/20/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I didn't completely follow all of the last currency thread. (Got busy at work, and lost track of the thread.) I think it meandered somewhat... But here's what we are doing... Something that renders as... $5.00 Would have the markup... abbr class=iso4217 #164; title=CAD$/abbr5.00 Interesting, but is iso42172 better than currency? Andy why is the currency symbol (#164;) needed there? Although I think I was (also) suggesting using the label currency, (after thinking about it more) technically the abbr is NOT around a currency, but the currency symbol. So a class name like currency-symbol or currency_symbol would be better. But... #164; or curren; or ¤ actually means currency symbol. (It's a pictograph for it.) And since I'm guessing this is a language neutral way of saying currency symbol, I thought it was better. (Also... just a note... I used #164; instead of curren; or ¤ because I think it is the most portable way of getting the currency symbol in there... they are all equivalent though. But that's why I put that in there instead of the other 2.) Also, iso42172 is NOT a replacement for the currency class name (or the #164; class name). It is something that aids it. It just tells you what format you are going to use to specify the currency (in the title). There are other formats for specifying currencies besides these 3 letter codes. (Like there are different ways of specifying distances... like miles, kilometers, light years, etc.) See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ Make Televisionhttp://maketelevision.com/ ___ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Andy, I see that you documented some examples on the currency page on the wiki. Others have mentioned existing currency formats on this thread. Could you please create the following pages and fill them out? http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-examples http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-formats Per the process, researching and documenting *-examples and *-formats are a required prerequisite before bothering to discuss any brainstorming or proposals. Otherwise the discussions of brainstorming will tend to reflect bias and matters of taste rather than actual market/development requirements. If you need an outline to start with, take a look at the examples page: http://microformats.org/wiki/examples Thanks, Tantek On 9/20/06 9:25 AM, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The proposal for a 'currency' microformat, for marking-up amounts of money, seems moribund. This is unfortunate, as a number of other formats (hListing, job, hReview, book, etc.), might make use of it. I have, therefore, put up a straw-man proposal, at: http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-brainstorming#Straw_man_proposal Please feel free to critique it, and, in particular, highlight any examples for which it does not cater. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
On Sep 20, 2006, at 4:18 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: abbr class=currency title=USD span class=amount42.67/span /abbr Isn't this suggesting that 42.67 is an abbreviation for USD? I've commented before that microformats already misuse abbr in this way. Where is that? I don't remember seeing anything like this, where one piece of information is declared as abbreviation for another and they're not even the same kind of information. More generally, if the currency isn't published anywhere, doesn't that make it out of scope for microformats? The example, which you've only partially quoted, is a table row; elsewhere in that Wiki entry, I've talked of such rows having header cells; again, the wider issue is something I've addressed elsewhere. Okay, it wasn't clear to me that the examples were part of a larger document with relevant data elsewhere. That's probably another argument for using explicit inclusion: How would you solve these two issues? When the data is on the page, this seems like an ideal use of the include pattern: http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern Specifically, something like this: thabbr title=USD id=usd class=currencyCost/abbr/th [...] td class=money a class=include href=#usd/a span class=amount42.67/span /td There's been some previous discussion of table columns specifically here, but I'm not as clear on that: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar- brainstorming#Tabular_event_calendars When the data is not on the page at all, I'd say that's out of scope for microformats. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Charles Iliya Krempeaux mumbled the following on 20/09/2006 22:38: abbr class=iso4217 #164; title=CAD$/abbr5.00 So a class name like currency-symbol or currency_symbol would be better. I've not been following this thread closely, so apologies if this has already been dismissed. Andy, or whoever, feel free to add any relevant parts to the brainstorming page. Usually, when talking about currency, the word 'type' is used (see xe.com). That, to me, suggests something similar to a previous suggestion (http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-July/004780.html), though mine is slightly different: span class=currency span class=type$/span span class=value5.00/span /span (which follows the value excerpting model of using type and value classes), or, better: span class=currency abbr class=type title=CAD$/abbr span class=value5.00/span /span If the formatting of a currency is such that the type symbol comes after the value, then simply swap the order of the type and value elements. I do think that the use of type and value classes would be better than currency_symbol and amount. It follows the same as other elemental formats and, even ISO4217 has codes for currencies that don't use symbols: span class=currency span class=value23/span ounces of abbr class=type title=XAGGold/abbr /span Following on from this, the use of a money class should not be used; currency does not _have_ to be money, and having a metal class starts to make it convoluted. Type and value work fine. If there was one further issue, perhaps an amount class could be used instead of type value: span class=currency span class=amount£14 6s 4d/span /span span class=currency span class=amount50 pence/span /span I don't think any mention of ISO4217 is needed within the code though; it could be accepted as the default way of doing it, in the same way ISO8601 is used for dates, and whatever co-ordinate system is used in geo, etc. If you include the iso4217 within class names, and a new standard comes along (countries merging/splitting, changing to single/other currencies etc) then you'll need to change all your class names - not a good situation. But... #164; or curren; or ¤ actually means currency symbol. (It's a pictograph for it.) And since I'm guessing this is a language neutral way of saying currency symbol, I thought it was better. The majority / rest of microformats are in English, so why start trying to be different now? It just tells you what format you are going to use to specify the currency (in the title). There are other formats for specifying currencies besides these 3 letter codes. (Like there are different ways of specifying distances... like miles, kilometers, light years, etc.) Those could be considered types of distance, rather than the group of types that your ISO4217 refers to. You wouldn't specify Metric, Imperial, SI etc when referring to a distance? A quick look at the straw man proposal[1], I can see that my above examples may need work to cover older, now un-used forms of currency. But then how far do we go back in time? Back to when camels were used as a form of currency? How about localised monetary systems back in Medieval times? Or shall we be sensible and stick with what the international financial world recognises, by sticking to only those currencies listed in ISO4217? [1] http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-brainstorming#Straw_man_proposal -- Regards, Gazza ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I see that you documented some examples on the currency page on the wiki. Others have mentioned existing currency formats on this thread. Could you please create the following pages and fill them out? http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-examples http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-formats Per the process, researching and documenting *-examples and *-formats are a required prerequisite before bothering to discuss any brainstorming or proposals. Otherwise the discussions of brainstorming will tend to reflect bias and matters of taste rather than actual market/development requirements. I find your tone objectionable; and your claims fallacious. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Gazza [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I've not been following this thread closely, so apologies if this has already been dismissed. Andy, or whoever, feel free to add any relevant parts to the brainstorming page. Noted, and thank you. Usually, when talking about currency, the word 'type' is used (see xe.com) It may be used sometimes,; often, even, but is it usual? I and people I know are far more likely to ask What currency is use in Albania? than what type of currency is used in Albania?. span class=currency span class=type$/span span class=value5.00/span /span Dollars is a currency. Five Dollars is money. (which follows the value excerpting model of using type and value classes), or, better: Note sure what you mean here. [...] even ISO4217 has codes for currencies that don't use symbols: span class=currency span class=value23/span ounces of abbr class=type title=XAGGold/abbr /span once would be the unit, in that case. Following on from this, the use of a money class should not be used; currency does not _have_ to be money That's an interesting point. If there was one further issue, perhaps an amount class could be used instead of type value: span class=currency span class=amount£14 6s 4d/span /span span class=currency span class=amount50 pence/span /span Those won't allow a user agent to extract the numeric value, easily. I don't think any mention of ISO4217 is needed within the code though; it could be accepted as the default way of doing it, in the same way ISO8601 is used for dates, and whatever co-ordinate system is used in geo, etc. Seconded. It only needs to be specified if there's more than one standard in use. [...] -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On Sep 20, 2006, at 4:18 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: abbr class=currency title=USD span class=amount42.67/span /abbr Isn't this suggesting that 42.67 is an abbreviation for USD? I've commented before that microformats already misuse abbr in this way. Where is that? I don't remember seeing anything like this, where one piece of information is declared as abbreviation for another and they're not even the same kind of information. I may be a similar discussion; sorry. When the data is on the page, this seems like an ideal use of the include pattern: http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern Specifically, something like this: thabbr title=USD id=usd class=currencyCost/abbr/th [...] td class=money a class=include href=#usd/a span class=amount42.67/span /td An empty anchor tag? Is that semantically meaningful? It's certainly something I'd usually avoid using, When the data is not on the page at all, I'd say that's out of scope for microformats. I now that's the received wisdom here; I don't agree that it's always the case, but this isn't the thread for that debate. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
On 9/20/06 3:51 PM, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see that you documented some examples on the currency page on the wiki. Others have mentioned existing currency formats on this thread. Could you please create the following pages and fill them out? http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-examples http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-formats Per the process, researching and documenting *-examples and *-formats are a required prerequisite before bothering to discuss any brainstorming or proposals. Otherwise the discussions of brainstorming will tend to reflect bias and matters of taste rather than actual market/development requirements. I find your tone objectionable; Andy, the tone is short and straightforward to get things done. Nothing more, nothing less. and your claims fallacious. I see that there is a currency-examples page - sorry about that - I was confused because currency seems to redirect rather than be a top level page that points to the efforts overall. I have edited the top level currency page accordingly to be more of an index page. However, there is no currency-formats page. http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-formats Please re-read the process and follow it accordingly. We have the process for a reason (many reasons). If you want to question the process that's a separate discussion, otherwise please follow it if your intent is to produce a microformat. http://microformats.org/wiki/process Thanks, Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Gazza [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes span class=currency span class=type$/span span class=value5.00/span /span Dollars is a currency. Five Dollars is money. No, money is a currency, metal is another type of currency. Dollars is a /type/ of currency. Even if so, Five Dollars is still money, not currency. (which follows the value excerpting model of using type and value classes), or, better: Note sure what you mean here. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Value_excerpting Thank you. [...] even ISO4217 has codes for currencies that don't use symbols: span class=currency span class=value23/span ounces of abbr class=type title=XAGGold/abbr /span once would be the unit, in that case. Nope - the ISO4217 specifies that XAG is Gold measured in ounces - there's no need to replicate a unit of ounces anywhere. I was referring to unit as used in my straw man proposal. Though it might be better if ounces of were thus marked up. One fleeting glimpse I had, though I wouldn't be keen on (but bears mentioning for completeness of discussion), might be a subclass of money / a method - this could be paper, coins, cheque, etc. Not sure how this could be implemented, or even if there's (m)any real-life examples to warrant needing this level of detail. Send a cheque for £5, though send a cheque, postal order, or stamps to the value of £5 may be harder to mark up ;-) If there was one further issue, perhaps an amount class could be used instead of type value: span class=currency span class=amount£14 6s 4d/span /span span class=currency span class=amount50 pence/span /span Those won't allow a user agent to extract the numeric value, easily. Agreed, but knew someone might pick up on those examples :o) I suppose you could have your unit class here: span class=currency span class=amount abbr class=unit title=GBP£/abbr14 6abbr class=unit title=shillingss/abbr 4abbr class=unit title=old penced/abbr /span /span ^^^ There's all sorts of problems with that example, Not least that shilling may not be a British shilling and that the whole thing is GBP. but you get the general idea. Yes, but the value in GBP is 14.32 (ish), and that's not there. The straw-man proposal allows for this: span class=money abbr class=currency title=GBP abbr class=amount title=14.32 abbr class=symbol title=pound£/abbr14 6abbr class=symbol title=shillings/abbr 4abbr class=symbol title=old-pennyd/abbr /abbr /abbr /span (use of pound; notwithstanding!) -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Hello Andy, On 9/20/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I see that you documented some examples on the currency page on the wiki. Others have mentioned existing currency formats on this thread. Could you please create the following pages and fill them out? http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-examples http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-formats Per the process, researching and documenting *-examples and *-formats are a required prerequisite before bothering to discuss any brainstorming or proposals. Otherwise the discussions of brainstorming will tend to reflect bias and matters of taste rather than actual market/development requirements. I find your tone objectionable; and your claims fallacious. I know what you mean, because I have had similar reactions. But, I've tried to keep one thing in mind (and give him the benefit of the doubt and not that)... in e-mail, people always tend to seem rude. Just my opinion... I don't think Tantek means anything by it. (I.e., I don't think he's trying to be insulting. That's just how he writes.) I know personally... for myself... that people who don't know me well think I'm being an a$$hole when I talk... even though I don't mean it that way. I'm just very very blunt. But some people interpret it in ways that I don't mean. See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ Make Televisionhttp://maketelevision.com/ ___ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Hello, On 9/20/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Gazza [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes [...] I don't think any mention of ISO4217 is needed within the code though; it could be accepted as the default way of doing it, in the same way ISO8601 is used for dates, and whatever co-ordinate system is used in geo, etc. Seconded. It only needs to be specified if there's more than one standard in use. But what if others want to use other currency labels? (Other than those specified by ISO 4127). What if a new specification comes out and these 3 letter codes from ISO 4127 becomes obsolete? Then what? And what if one or more of these 3 letter codes also stands for something else. Used in some other Semantic HTML (or Microformat)? For example.. what if sit is used in some other Semantic HTML? How do you know if sit represents the Slovenia Tolar or to sit down in some other Semantic HTML (or something else)? See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ Make Televisionhttp://maketelevision.com/ ___ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I don't think any mention of ISO4217 is needed within the code though; it could be accepted as the default way of doing it, in the same way ISO8601 is used for dates, and whatever co-ordinate system is used in geo, etc. Seconded. It only needs to be specified if there's more than one standard in use. But what if others want to use other currency labels? (Other than those specified by ISO 4127). Such as? What if a new specification comes out and these 3 letter codes from ISO 4127 becomes obsolete? Then what? What if any other default standard does? And what if one or more of these 3 letter codes also stands for something else. Used in some other Semantic HTML (or Microformat)? For example.. what if sit is used in some other Semantic HTML? How do you know if sit represents the Slovenia Tolar or to sit down in some other Semantic HTML (or something else)? Inside a money-classed span? -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
Hello Andy, On 9/20/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I don't think any mention of ISO4217 is needed within the code though; it could be accepted as the default way of doing it, in the same way ISO8601 is used for dates, and whatever co-ordinate system is used in geo, etc. Seconded. It only needs to be specified if there's more than one standard in use. But what if others want to use other currency labels? (Other than those specified by ISO 4127). Such as? I don't know of any specific alternate specifications. Although I have seen evidence that there are others. For example, with ISO 4127, Canadian Dollars has the code CAD. However, I have also seen the code CDN used for Canadian Dollars. I don't know specification that is from though. IMO, it would be better to be forward thinking an allow for the possibility of other currency codes. What if a new specification comes out and these 3 letter codes from ISO 4127 becomes obsolete? Then what? What if any other default standard does? My suggestion would be to not have a default, and always specify a type (like iso4127). And what if one or more of these 3 letter codes also stands for something else. Used in some other Semantic HTML (or Microformat)? For example.. what if sit is used in some other Semantic HTML? How do you know if sit represents the Slovenia Tolar or to sit down in some other Semantic HTML (or something else)? Inside a money-classed span? What if the money class is contained/nested in yet another piece of Semantic HTML. There could be confusion in that case. I think we've had problems like that when the hAtom class names were being decided on. See ya -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ Make Televisionhttp://maketelevision.com/ ___ Cars, Motorcycles, Trucks, and Racing... http://tirebiterz.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] 'currency' microformat straw-man proposal.
On Sep 20, 2006, at 6:59 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: No. You're not in a position to stipulate requirements (much less required prerequisites (sic)) of me, and your insinuations of bias are unfounded. We all have bias. I'm interested in a currency microformat because I work on several intranet accounting applications in my day job. But these personal interests of mine should not form the basis of a currency microformat. The process of documenting and evaluating existing practices and existing formats helps guard against my personal bias leading to a microformat that is very useful for me, but not so much for the web at large. Tantek alone is not in a position to stipulate requirements (or if he is, he does so at the risk of alienating the community) but the community as a whole /is/ in that position, and we seem to have general agreement that the process is a pretty good set of requirements. If we have disagreement about the process, we should discuss it before moving forward with a microformat. On Sep 20, 2006, at 7:24 PM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: But, I've tried to keep one thing in mind (and give him the benefit of the doubt and not that)... in e-mail, people always tend to seem rude. Just my opinion... I don't think Tantek means anything by it. (I.e., I don't think he's trying to be insulting. That's just how he writes.) I, too, will testify that Tantek's just-the-facts-ma'am writing style grows on one over time. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
Ben's original statement of the problem, somebody asks $50 for an item, but is that US? Canadian? Australian? Why not just write: abbr title=US Dollars$/abbr50 or 50 abbr title=US DollarsUSD/abbr I'm wondering if a currency sign/symbol is technically an abbreviation, since the sign/symbol stands for the complete concept dollar. Anyway, it's probably good enough to go on with; but it's a nagging thought. Because there is an ISO standard set of currency codes, I think it makes sense to work that into the system; so the first version would be out - it uses the converstational version, not the code. The second seems a little repetitive; although correct. So abbr title=USD$/abbr might be better to specify the meaning of the dollar sign, but no more meaning is added than that (we haven't made it to fifty US Dollars, just US Dollars). Plus, it only specifies that the letter USD are associated, not that the letters are actually part of a formal specification (does that make sense? :)). So the reason for a container beyond that is to associate the unit with the number and to associate the unit with a standard. Plus it allows for further development of the microformat. So... I think div class=currency USD$50/div would work as a shorthand. It defines a) we're talking about money - ISO standard implied, b) we're talking about the USD variety, c) we're talking fifty units of that money, d) a parser could work out the numbers and the symbol. Of course you could use ABBR instead of DIV. This shorthand version would be parsed much like n/fn in vCard, where certain assumptions are made if a specific order hasn't been specified. -Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
On 20 Jul 2006, at 07:27, Ben Buchanan wrote: So... I think div class=currency USD$50/div would work as a shorthand. It defines a) we're talking about money - ISO standard implied, b) we're talking about the USD variety, c) we're talking fifty units of that money, d) a parser could work out the numbers and the symbol. Of course you could use ABBR instead of DIV. The problem of having the ‘USD’ inside a class attribute is that this hides the data from humans. I think that for the above mark-up, the USD portion does need to be part of an ABBR/@title. Bt of course, abbr class=currency title=USD$50/abbr is arguably inaccurate, since the @title should probably read ‘50 USD’, not just ‘USD’. At that point it actually makes is clearer to me the fact that we're marking up numbers and units, not just currency. It leads on to mark- up like this: span class=numberabbr class=unit currency title=GBP£/ abbr50/span span class=number25span class=unitcm/span/span I've left the ‘currency’ class name in addition to ‘unit’. It felt intuitive as I wrote it. Whether any provisional ‘units of measurement’ µƒ matching the above should have an enumeration for such values: currency, distance… not sure. Go too far down that road and suddenly you're looking at a µf or specifying dimensions* instead. Ben (* To go entirely off on a tangent, a common way of describing dimensions, built on top of some sort of units µf actually sounds quite useful in my head: Visit IKEA, view a table and click a button to have a block representation of that table imported Google SketchUp or some sort of interior design application… Now perhaps it's just the lack of early morning coffee but that sounds alarmingly viable and certainly makes me feel that a units µf could be a very useful foundation to have) ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Ben's original statement of the problem, somebody asks $50 for an item, but is that US? Canadian? Australian? Why not just write: abbr title=US Dollars$/abbr50 or 50 abbr title=US DollarsUSD/abbr I'm wondering if a currency sign/symbol is technically an abbreviation, since the sign/symbol stands for the complete concept dollar. Anyway, it's probably good enough to go on with; but it's a nagging thought. Would you argue with, say: pounds sterling and Great British Pounds can both be abbreviated to £ ? Because there is an ISO standard set of currency codes, I think it makes sense to work that into the system; so the first version would be out - it uses the converstational version, not the code. The second seems a little repetitive; although correct. So abbr title=USD$/abbr might be better to specify the meaning of the dollar sign, but no more meaning is added than that (we haven't made it to fifty US Dollars, just US Dollars). Indeed, but in: abbr title=USD$/abbr50 the numeric value is still available, to both human and machine. I do though, have reservations about torturing the abbreviation-title attribute like that; USD is itself an abbreviation, and the title should, in full, be United States Dollars. Once again, consider the (potential or optional) use of a screen reader/ aural browser, which pronounces title attributes. So... I think div class=currency USD$50/div would work as a shorthand. Of course you could use ABBR instead of DIV. Like this: abbr class=currency USD title=fifty United States Dollars$50/abbr ? Further thoughts: I presume that agents would not be troubled by paragraph including: abbr title=US Dollars$/abbr50 or abbr title=Canadian Dollars$/abbr50 any more than, say: abbr title=International Business MachinesIBM/abbr or abbr title=Idiotic Business ManagementIBM/abbr (though neither is human-friendly). Where the 'nationality' of the currency needs to be shown to a human, '$US 50' is: abbr title=US Dollars$US/abbr 50 but what about '$50 US' ? Though, again: currency type=US Dollars50/currency could be styled as: $50 or USD 50 or $US 50 or $50 US or 50 dollars or 50 US dollars as required. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
RE: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
On July 18, 2006 12:08 PM, Ryan King wrote: On Jul 17, 2006, at 11:24 PM, Ben Buchanan wrote: The classic problem example would be a page stating a price of $50. Is that Australian dollars? US dollars? Monopoly money? :) So anyway I'm following The Process (http://microformats.org/wiki/process) and I'm up to searching for existing formats/work. So far I've only seen the ISO standard for three-letter codes, no format or microformat for consistently displaying them. Does anyone know of relevant resources I should check out? It'd be interesting to see how e-commerce sites do this. Especially sites like amazon which have seperate stores in different languages and currencies. Try documenting their markup on http://microformats.org/wiki/currency-examples . I got the page kicked off by capturing a few examples in the wild and some of the brainstorming that took place here on the list. I put both on the examples page for now. We can split them up if activity warrants. Best, Steve ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
Hi all, Wow, lots of discussion :) I'll respond to a few points in one, hope that's ok with everyone. 1) Language/currency - Not all countries have a single currency in circulation - Not all countries have a single language in use - Not all speakers of a specific language will use a specific currency - A page in a specific language might want to display an amount in several different currencies 2) Using the symbol in an ABBR - I'm not entirely sure it's semantically acceptable to insert an abbreviation into the title of an ABBR tag. I guess that depends on exactly how you classify a currency code like USD, ie. is it (semantically speaking) 'short for' US Dollars or is it literally USD. I tend towards it being an abbreviation. - It's worth noting that not all currencies have a symbol, although I'm reasonably sure that currencies without a symbol do have an accepted abbreviation (usually two letters it seems). 3) It already is pretty neat: http://viewmycurrency.wordpress.com/about/ http://nybblelabs.org.uk/projects/exchequer http://6v8.gamboni.org/Greasemonkey-Yahoo-Finance.html Which prompts the question: what exactly is the problem we're trying to solve here? Well, consider the first two bug reports at http://viewmycurrency.backpackit.com/pub/403081 - All $ symbols are treated as USD Very annoying if you are Australian, Canadian etc. (Needs a new feature) - 'Euro 2006 Championship' should not be converted. ...the script is having to make guesses. It can't distinguish between different types of dollar, nor can it distinguish Euro the word from Euro the currency. A microformat would allow absolute definition. http://6v8.gamboni.org/Greasemonkey-Yahoo-Finance.html requires the user to say which currencies to convert, again the page does not specify. http://nybblelabs.org.uk/projects/exchequer requires the user to cycle through multiple currencies, plus I suspect it is having to guess the original currency. So, the problem we're trying to solve is how to have pages *define* the currency of the prices presented. Implication and guesses are too open for error, with high potential consequences. 4) I figure I may as well show some of the ideas I had before posting :) Verbose: div class=currency p class=figure span class=codecode/span span class=signsymbol/span span class=amount12345/span /p /div Shortened, relying on parsing to separate a-z triplets (the code), numbers (the figure) and any symbol or a-z combination other than a triplet (the sign): div class=currency p class=figureABC12345$/p /div Potential issues: some currencies have/had three-letter abbreviations. Not sure if any are in use at the moment, but we have to take that possibility into account. Super shortened, where figure is implied: div class=currencyABC12345$/div Super shortened, where figure is implied: div class=currency ABC12345$/div Why include figure? Consider providing multiple amounts on one page: div class=currency p class=figure span class=codecode/span span class=signsymbol/span span class=amount12345/span /p p class=figure span class=codecode/span span class=signsymbol/span span class=amount12345/span /p /div Then Consider providing multiple translations of one price in different amounts... I tried converted as a container within figure, to associate the different numbers with a single concept: div class=currency p class=figure span class=codecode/span span class=signsymbol/span span class=amount12345/span /p p class=figure span class=converted span class=codecode/span span class=signsymbol/span span class=amount12345/span /span span class=converted span class=codecode/span span class=signsymbol/span span class=amount12345/span /span /p /div so anyway, that's more than enough for one email :) Thoughts? cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
[Gack. Sorry about the name mixup, twitchy email setting. Reposted to clarify who's talking.] Hi all, Wow, lots of discussion :) I'll respond to a few points in one, hope that's ok with everyone. 1) Language/currency - Not all countries have a single currency in circulation - Not all countries have a single language in use - Not all speakers of a specific language will use a specific currency - A page in a specific language might want to display an amount in several different currencies 2) Using the symbol in an ABBR - I'm not entirely sure it's semantically acceptable to insert an abbreviation into the title of an ABBR tag. I guess that depends on exactly how you classify a currency code like USD, ie. is it (semantically speaking) 'short for' US Dollars or is it literally USD. I tend towards it being an abbreviation. - It's worth noting that not all currencies have a symbol, although I'm reasonably sure that currencies without a symbol do have an accepted abbreviation (usually two letters it seems). 3) It already is pretty neat: http://viewmycurrency.wordpress.com/about/ http://nybblelabs.org.uk/projects/exchequer http://6v8.gamboni.org/Greasemonkey-Yahoo-Finance.html Which prompts the question: what exactly is the problem we're trying to solve here? Well, consider the first two bug reports at http://viewmycurrency.backpackit.com/pub/403081 - All $ symbols are treated as USD Very annoying if you are Australian, Canadian etc. (Needs a new feature) - 'Euro 2006 Championship' should not be converted. ...the script is having to make guesses. It can't distinguish between different types of dollar, nor can it distinguish Euro the word from Euro the currency. A microformat would allow absolute definition. http://6v8.gamboni.org/Greasemonkey-Yahoo-Finance.html requires the user to say which currencies to convert, again the page does not specify. http://nybblelabs.org.uk/projects/exchequer requires the user to cycle through multiple currencies, plus I suspect it is having to guess the original currency. So, the problem we're trying to solve is how to have pages *define* the currency of the prices presented. Implication and guesses are too open for error, with high potential consequences. 4) I figure I may as well show some of the ideas I had before posting :) Verbose: div class=currency p class=figure span class=codecode/span span class=signsymbol/span span class=amount12345/span /p /div Shortened, relying on parsing to separate a-z triplets (the code), numbers (the figure) and any symbol or a-z combination other than a triplet (the sign): div class=currency p class=figureABC12345$/p /div Potential issues: some currencies have/had three-letter abbreviations. Not sure if any are in use at the moment, but we have to take that possibility into account. Super shortened, where figure is implied: div class=currencyABC12345$/div Super shortened, where figure is implied: div class=currency ABC12345$/div Why include figure? Consider providing multiple amounts on one page: div class=currency p class=figure span class=codecode/span span class=signsymbol/span span class=amount12345/span /p p class=figure span class=codecode/span span class=signsymbol/span span class=amount12345/span /p /div Then Consider providing multiple translations of one price in different amounts... I tried converted as a container within figure, to associate the different numbers with a single concept: div class=currency p class=figure span class=codecode/span span class=signsymbol/span span class=amount12345/span /p p class=figure span class=converted span class=codecode/span span class=signsymbol/span span class=amount12345/span /span span class=converted span class=codecode/span span class=signsymbol/span span class=amount12345/span /span /p /div so anyway, that's more than enough for one email :) Thoughts? cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
On Jul 19, 2006, at 8:32 AM, Ben Buchanan wrote: So, the problem we're trying to solve is how to have pages *define* the currency of the prices presented. Implication and guesses are too open for error, with high potential consequences. Okay, that looks to me more like a simple, clear problem that microformats could potentially solve. But I'd suggest that a lot of the recent discussion here has strayed into other problems. For example: Then Consider providing multiple translations of one price in different amounts... How does considering this help us define the currency of the prices presented? It looks like we just strayed from marking up currency to marking up exchange rates. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve Ganz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I got the page kicked off by capturing a few examples in the wild and some of the brainstorming that took place here on the list. Oddly, you seem to have overlooked my comments. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Consider a defunct currency Example: http://charlesdickenspage.com/works.html a novel cost 31 shillings in 1836, average worker earned 6 to 20 shillings per week) but a monthly installment, 32 pages with 2 illustrations and advertisements, could be sold for a shilling. Literally, six shillings = GBP 0.30; 20 shillings = GBP 1.00; but both have to be multiplied by some factor to give current-day equivalencies. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
On Jul 19, 2006, at 4:39 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Consider a defunct currency Example: http://charlesdickenspage.com/works.html a novel cost 31 shillings in 1836, average worker earned 6 to 20 shillings per week) but a monthly installment, 32 pages with 2 illustrations and advertisements, could be sold for a shilling. Literally, six shillings = GBP 0.30; 20 shillings = GBP 1.00; but both have to be multiplied by some factor to give current-day equivalencies. I've remarked in IRC that some of the markup examples shown to this point have seemed quite verbose and probably impractical but haven't weighed in here because its not necessarily my domain. But since we have an example in the above text let me pose two questions to those mulling the issues over and then quickly step aside. [1] how would one proposed to mark up the string 6 to 20 shillings per week so that both values could be addressed with the appropriate measurement unit? [2] Other then providing hooks for exchange rate processing does the markup provide any other benefit? Either as hooks for other processes, styling, or for allowing data to be extracted and or used by an outside process? -- [ Chris Casciano ] [ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ http://placenamehere.com ] ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
How about using a timestamp/effective date? If enabling exchange rate and value-over-time calculations is a goal for a currency uf, I think we'll find them essential. -ml --- Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Consider a defunct currency Example: http://charlesdickenspage.com/works.html a novel cost 31 shillings in 1836, average worker earned 6 to 20 shillings per week) but a monthly installment, 32 pages with 2 illustrations and advertisements, could be sold for a shilling. Literally, six shillings = GBP 0.30; 20 shillings = GBP 1.00; but both have to be multiplied by some factor to give current-day equivalencies. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
RE: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
On Wednesday, July 19, 2006 1:34 Andy Mabbett wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve Ganz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I got the page kicked off by capturing a few examples in the wild and some of the brainstorming that took place here on the list. Oddly, you seem to have overlooked my comments. Sorry, Andy! It was late. Nothing personal. :-) Feel free to add your thoughts and examples at anytime. Best, Steve ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
On Jul 19, 2006, at 3:35 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Then Consider providing multiple translations of one price in different amounts... How does considering this help us define the currency of the prices presented? It looks like we just strayed from marking up currency to marking up exchange rates. Working out values in secondary currencies is a (real-time or daily) job for server-side scripting or user agents, surely? Sure, but that doesn't make it the same problem. If we don't stick to a specific problem, we risk never solving anything as the goal continuously changes. Case in point: On Jul 19, 2006, at 4:37 PM, Michael Leikam wrote: If enabling exchange rate and value-over-time calculations is a goal for a currency uf, I think we'll find them essential. None of the examples or brainstorming on the wiki so far seem to involve exchange rates nor value-over-time. That appears to be a separate, more complicated problem that can and should be considered after a currency microformat is complete, not before. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Chris Casciano [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes [1] how would one proposed to mark up the string 6 to 20 shillings per week so that both values could be addressed with the appropriate measurement unit? Something like: currency type=GBP unit=shilling date=18606/shilling to currency type=GBP unit=shilling date=186020/shilling shillings the actual word shillings need not be marked up. [2] Other then providing hooks for exchange rate processing does the markup provide any other benefit? Either as hooks for other processes, styling, or for allowing data to be extracted and or used by an outside process? As I've already pointed out; amounts could be styled with currency symbols in the same way that Q tags are styled with quote marks (or in the above example, suppressed by using, say, class=nosymbol); and the date attribute would allow for modern-day equivalence to be calculated. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Something like: currency type=GBP unit=shilling date=18606/shilling to currency type=GBP unit=shilling date=186020/shilling shillings Ack! That should be: currency type=GBP unit=shilling date=18366/currency to currency type=GBP unit=shilling date=183620/currency shillings -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
Scott, I wasn't aware that we had collectively settled on a problem definition or had moved on to solving anything. If I've missed the cutoff, please consider my comments and suggestions as late brainstorming. I for one am interested in how to clearly mark up 6 shillings or 5 dollars when the author means in 1836 or in 1905. -ml --- Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we don't stick to a specific problem, we risk never solving anything as the goal continuously changes. Case in point: On Jul 19, 2006, at 4:37 PM, Michael Leikam wrote: If enabling exchange rate and value-over-time calculations is a goal for a currency uf, I think we'll find them essential. None of the examples or brainstorming on the wiki so far seem to involve exchange rates nor value-over-time. That appears to be a separate, more complicated problem that can and should be considered after a currency microformat is complete, not before. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
Michael, I think it has not yet been shown by sufficient research that a currency at this *historical* point in time is a problem worthy of a solving with a microformat. Whether or not there is any specific interest on any of our parts to clearly mark something up, there needs to be research done first to justify a microformat. Until then, you are of course encouraged to experiment in the wild and use the most semantic markup and class names that you yourself can come up with. Thanks, Tantek On 7/19/06 4:05 PM, Michael Leikam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, I wasn't aware that we had collectively settled on a problem definition or had moved on to solving anything. If I've missed the cutoff, please consider my comments and suggestions as late brainstorming. I for one am interested in how to clearly mark up 6 shillings or 5 dollars when the author means in 1836 or in 1905. -ml --- Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we don't stick to a specific problem, we risk never solving anything as the goal continuously changes. Case in point: On Jul 19, 2006, at 4:37 PM, Michael Leikam wrote: If enabling exchange rate and value-over-time calculations is a goal for a currency uf, I think we'll find them essential. None of the examples or brainstorming on the wiki so far seem to involve exchange rates nor value-over-time. That appears to be a separate, more complicated problem that can and should be considered after a currency microformat is complete, not before. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
On 7/19/06 3:33 PM, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Something like: currency type=GBP unit=shilling date=18606/shilling to currency type=GBP unit=shilling date=186020/shilling shillings Ack! That should be: currency type=GBP unit=shilling date=18366/currency to currency type=GBP unit=shilling date=183620/currency shillings Criticisms: 1. Appears to violate DRY by duplicating shilling in several places. 2. Encourages invisible data, the date attribute in particular. Which real world example was this trying to mark up? (i.e. at what URL was this content found?) Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I think it has not yet been shown by sufficient research that a currency at this *historical* point in time is a problem worthy of a solving with a microformat. Google finds: about 58,500 for worth in modern terms. about 381,000,000 for worth today including http://eh.net/hmit/ and http://www.exeter.ac.uk/~RDavies/arian/current/howmuch.html about 15,800,000 for French franc -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
Then Consider providing multiple translations of one price in different amounts... How does considering this help us define the currency of the prices presented? It looks like we just strayed from marking up currency to marking up exchange rates. You're right, it doesn't help. Defining the currency helps us define when several numbers on a page are actually the same *value* presented in different currencies. So, other way around. Once we've solved the simple problem we can solve the more complex problems which required the simple solution. Working out values in secondary currencies is a (real-time or daily) job for server-side scripting or user agents, surely? Calculating the values should be scripting or server-side, sure. Presenting the results of those calculations back to the UA is a markup issue, hence the suggestion of a microformat to let an author specify exactly what each number means. The exchange rate used could be another (optional) field, paired with a timestamp of that rate and a probably somehow linked with a URL where the rate was sourced. To be fair, yes the issue of exchange rates and multiple versions of one price would be beyond the simple problem. That said, there's no reason a microformat couldn't be expanded to allow rich meaning based on solving that original problem. Ben -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
On Jul 19, 2006, at 6:05 PM, Michael Leikam wrote: I wasn't aware that we had collectively settled on a problem definition or had moved on to solving anything. If I've missed the cutoff, please consider my comments and suggestions as late brainstorming. I for one am interested in how to clearly mark up 6 shillings or 5 dollars when the author means in 1836 or in 1905. I'm just reiterating the first two microformats principles [1]: # solve a specific problem # start as simple as possible Regardless of how interested we may be in a complex problem, simple problems still need to be solved first. On Jul 19, 2006, at 6:28 PM, Andy Mabbett wrote: Google finds: about 58,500 for worth in modern terms. Great. You could start documenting those, and find common patterns. But I predict one of those common patterns will be the use of currency, so you'll need to solve that problem first. [1] http://microformats.org/about/ Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
--- Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it has not yet been shown by sufficient research that a currency at this *historical* point in time is a problem worthy of a solving with a microformat. Absolutely. A lot more work needs to be done. To take Ben's original statement of the problem, somebody asks $50 for an item, but is that US? Canadian? Australian? Why not just write: abbr title=US Dollars$/abbr50 or 50 abbr title=US DollarsUSD/abbr If the problem is clarifying what the funny S means, that's probably enough and no microformat is necessary. On the other hand, if we do find that more extensive markup is useful, I expect that a timestamp will be quite helpful when it comes to parsing monetary values, especially as webpages age. Maybe that's part of the currency format, maybe it ends up in some higher-level format like hListing. In any case, now it's here in the archives and we can start with the simple things. -ml ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
Hello, (Hopefully this will get to the mailing... haven't been able to get through in a while. But we'll see) I'm actually working on a globalization of currencies project right now. (And have dealt with this issue in the past too.) For us, each user of the system has a specified locale. (Like: en_US, fr_CA, etc.) And with that locale, there is a default currency associated with that. In our system there's a PHP function that takes care of printing money. All it really does is add the proper currency symbol and puts it in the correct place (for the local). Although, internally, in the database, currencies info is stored in ISO 4217 format. First guess would be to use the abbr design pattenn for this -- http://microformats.org/wiki/abbr-design-pattern Maybe something like... Pay me abbr class=currency title=CAD$/abbr5.00 now! Although something like the the following might be better... Pay me span class=moneyabbr class=currency title=CAD$/abbr5.00/span now! But it might be more semantic salt than is considered necessary. Just having the abbr with the class-currency near a number might be good enough. But that's open for discussion though. Thoughts? Some other things to consider... there might be an implicit currency that comes with what's defined in the HTML lang attribute. Like if you have lang=fr-CA than you could assume the currency is CAD. (But that takes some intelligence to do that kind of mapping.) (Also, I know this is bad. But I don't think we are consistently using the lang attribute in our system.) Also, this is all just my experience. It would be useful to see what others are doing too. See ya On 7/17/06, Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, A recent discussion with a travelling friend has sparked some ideas about a microformat for displaying prices and other currency-based figures. The classic problem example would be a page stating a price of $50. Is that Australian dollars? US dollars? Monopoly money? :) So anyway I'm following The Process (http://microformats.org/wiki/process) and I'm up to searching for existing formats/work. So far I've only seen the ISO standard for three-letter codes, no format or microformat for consistently displaying them. Does anyone know of relevant resources I should check out? cheers, Ben -- Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. charles @ reptile.ca supercanadian @ gmail.com developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/ ___ Make Televisionhttp://maketelevision.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
On 7/18/06, Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe something like... Pay me abbr class=currency title=CAD$/abbr5.00 now! Something along these lines would be pretty sensible IMO Some other things to consider... there might be an implicit currency that comes with what's defined in the HTML lang attribute. Like if you have lang=fr-CA than you could assume the currency is CAD. (But that takes some intelligence to do that kind of mapping.) I'm very wary of this - a website in France might want to provide an English translation for international customers, but shouldn't have to then convert all the costs into GBP, for instance. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:12:11 +0200, Ben Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 18 Jul 2006, at 07:24, Ben Buchanan wrote: The classic problem example would be a page stating a price of $50. Is that Australian dollars? US dollars? Monopoly money? :) This is certainly a worthy cause, but to play devil's advocate for a moment, could pure HTML be sufficient? html lang=en-gb pMy new T-Shirts cost £30, but it cost my friend in Canada span lang=en-ca$34/span/p /html Language does not indicate currency, and any such use would be abuse. I may write something like: p lang=nbDen kanadiske prisen på t-skjorten var 34 $/p (The Canadian price of the t-shirt was $34) I am still very much writing in Norwegian (Bokmål), using a Norwegian convention of postfixing the currency symbol instead of prefixing it, but I am refering to the Canadian Dollar. I would probably suggest marking this up using classnames: p lang=nbDen kanadiske prisen på t-skjorten var span class=currency CAD34 $/span./p You could of course also complicate this further by using inline elements to separate value from symbol. -- Arve Bersvendsen, Opera Software ASA, http://www.opera.com/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
Arve Bersvendsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: p lang=nbDen kanadiske prisen på t-skjorten var span class=currency CAD34 $/span./p I like this idea. The earlier abbr/ based one was good too. You could of course also complicate this further by using inline elements to separate value from symbol. There's no need IMHO. A constraint that money must be represented in number systems with alphanumeric characters would seem to be acceptable to delineate the scalar value from the symbol. -- Nic Ferrier http://www.tapsellferrier.co.uk for all your tapsell ferrier needs ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
I may be totally out in left field because I haven't really studied up on the wiki as much as I should have but wouldn't something like this make more sense in terms of a currency microformat: span class=moneyabbr class=currency title=CAD eng$/ abbrspan class=amount5.00/span/span In this format the wrapping would be money or something similar followed by either the actual amount or the currency, depending on what rules your country/language follows in regards to the order. Since there can be a difference between different languages within countries I thought it might be a good idea to include that in the currency definition of the formating, eg., CAD eng or CAD fr. It could also give sites that list multiple languages a way to differentiate when they show multiple prices. So far on the examples sent to the list there has been no definition around the actual dollar amount which confused me a bit. I'm curious, is there a reason for that? Feel free to let me know if I'm missing the point completely as I am new to the world of microformats. Cheers, Mike Stickel On Jul 18, 2006, at 1:34 AM, Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote: Hello, Here's a handy list of ISO 4217 codes... http://www.xe.com/iso4217.htm Also, here's an example of the $ being used in (Canadian) French... https://secure.vmp.com/signup/adv_signup.php?locale=fr_CA Note the placement of the dollar sign AFTER the number. The same page in (USA) English can be seen here... https://secure.vmp.com/signup/adv_signup.php?locale=en_US (Just some example for the examples in the wild.) See ya On 7/18/06, Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, (Hopefully this will get to the mailing... haven't been able to get through in a while. But we'll see) I'm actually working on a globalization of currencies project right now. (And have dealt with this issue in the past too.) For us, each user of the system has a specified locale. (Like: en_US, fr_CA, etc.) And with that locale, there is a default currency associated with that. In our system there's a PHP function that takes care of printing money. All it really does is add the proper currency symbol and puts it in the correct place (for the local). Although, internally, in the database, currencies info is stored in ISO 4217 format. First guess would be to use the abbr design pattenn for this -- http://microformats.org/wiki/abbr-design-pattern Maybe something like... Pay me abbr class=currency title=CAD$/abbr5.00 now! Although something like the the following might be better... Pay me span class=moneyabbr class=currency title=CAD$/abbr5.00/span now! But it might be more semantic salt than is considered necessary. Just having the abbr with the class-currency near a number might be good enough. But that's open for discussion though. Thoughts? Some other things to consider... there might be an implicit currency that comes with what's defined in the HTML lang attribute. Like if you have lang=fr-CA than you could assume the currency is CAD. (But that takes some intelligence to do that kind of mapping.) (Also, I know this is bad. But I don't think we are consistently using the lang attribute in our system.) Also, this is all just my experience. It would be useful to see what others are doing too. See ya On 7/17/06, Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, A recent discussion with a travelling friend has sparked some ideas about a microformat for displaying prices and other currency-based figures. The classic problem example would be a page stating a price of $50. Is that Australian dollars? US dollars? Monopoly money? :) So anyway I'm following The Process (http://microformats.org/wiki/process) and I'm up to searching for existing formats/work. So far I've only seen the ISO standard for three-letter codes, no format or microformat for consistently displaying them. Does anyone know of relevant resources I should check out? cheers, Ben Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. Mike Stickel Screenflicker Developments | GoNecksGo | ChanceCube http://screenflicker.com | http://gonecksgo.com | http://chancecube.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
On 7/18/06, Mike Stickel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since there can be a difference between different languages within countries I thought it might be a good idea to include that in the currency definition of the formating, eg., CAD eng or CAD fr. If you need to specify the language, for instance to indicate how to interpret the chars/spacing in the number formatting, HTML has the @lang attribute which covers this (@lang=fr_CA and @lang=en_CA in this case). However, there's been a lot of close coupling of the concepts of 'language' and 'currency' in this discussion so far and I don't think that's at all necessary - I should be able to go to a foreign website that provides an English translation without my user-agent assuming the prices are in US Dollars, for example. So far on the examples sent to the list there has been no definition around the actual dollar amount which confused me a bit. I'm curious, is there a reason for that? The only microformat that I've noticed currency units in is hListing, and that deliberately shies away from parsing the actual values because it's too free-form in most existing Listing formats. My own preference would be for something like: p class=moneyThis item costs span class=currencyGBP/span span class=amount10.00/span /p Which with similar parsing rules to existing formats would also allow things like: p class=money It'll cost you abbr class=currency title=50.00fifty/abbr abbr class=amount title=GBPquid/abbr , mate! /p Or, a more complex example with multiple languages: p lang=en span class=money span class=amount50/span abbr class=currency title=GBPpound;/abbr /span span lang=fr class=money (c'est span class=amount75/span abbr class=currency title=EUReuro;/abbr pour ca) /span /p (sorry about the bad french) It'd be pretty neat to have a browser widget that converted all the USD prices on an American site into their equivalent GBP on mouseover, or something along those lines. -C ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
On 7/18/06, Ciaran McNulty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or, a more complex example with multiple languages: [...] Sorry, screwed this up a bit. I meant to demonstrate different number formatting. p lang=en Price: span class=money abbr class=currency title=GBPpound;/abbr span class=amount1,250.00/span /span span lang=fr class=money (Prix: span class=amount1600,00/span abbr class=currency title=EUReuro;/abbr ) /span /p ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
On Jul 18, 2006, at 9:54 AM, Ciaran McNulty wrote: It'd be pretty neat to have a browser widget that converted all the USD prices on an American site into their equivalent GBP on mouseover, or something along those lines. It already is pretty neat: http://viewmycurrency.wordpress.com/about/ In addition to that FireFox extension, here are two Greasemonkey scripts that manage to do currency conversion with no microformats: http://nybblelabs.org.uk/projects/exchequer http://6v8.gamboni.org/Greasemonkey-Yahoo-Finance.html Which prompts the question: what exactly is the problem we're trying to solve here? Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
On 7/18/06, Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It already is pretty neat: http://viewmycurrency.wordpress.com/about/ http://nybblelabs.org.uk/projects/exchequer http://6v8.gamboni.org/Greasemonkey-Yahoo-Finance.html Which prompts the question: what exactly is the problem we're trying to solve here? Huh, good point. Wonder how it works? -Ciaran ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat, or numbers with units
On 7/18/06 8:10 AM, Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 18, 2006, at 9:54 AM, Ciaran McNulty wrote: It'd be pretty neat to have a browser widget that converted all the USD prices on an American site into their equivalent GBP on mouseover, or something along those lines. It already is pretty neat: http://viewmycurrency.wordpress.com/about/ In addition to that FireFox extension, here are two Greasemonkey scripts that manage to do currency conversion with no microformats: http://nybblelabs.org.uk/projects/exchequer http://6v8.gamboni.org/Greasemonkey-Yahoo-Finance.html Which prompts the question: what exactly is the problem we're trying to solve here? Excellent question Scott. Certainly if the (presumed) problem has already been solved, especially with something as open as a Greasemonkey script, it's not clear that there is a strong enough need to justify a microformat. Many years ago when I was working on XHTML 2.0 (yes, I am actually one of the contributors to that spec, despite my opinions of it), one of the new proposals I put forth was an element to indicate a numerical value with a unit. I think you can see where I am going with this. Currency is a reasonable easy problem to solve as indicated by the scripts. Amounts in arbitrary units is a bit harder and necessary for several applications. For example, consider the work that has been done on a recipe microformat. http://microformats.org/wiki/recipe-examples Though we haven't reached this problem yet in the research, I can see it coming: Say you wanted to create a shopping list application which you could tell which recipes you wanted to cook, and have it automatically total up all the various amounts of ingredients and give you the net amount of stuff you wanted to pick up. It would need to be able to determine precise amounts/units of each ingredient. This might turn out to be like the currency problem, or it might be more complex, given the variety of units used in recipes, English vs. metric etc. That's a case that might need a microformat. We need more research and analysis to really justify it, but I can see it within the realm of probable possibility. Food for thought. Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes The classic problem example would be a page stating a price of $50. Is that Australian dollars? US dollars? Monopoly money? :) It seems to me that the issues with currency (whether or not microformats are involved) are, or at least include: Conveying the currency of the amount. Consider: span class=currency-GBP5.99/span [where currency-GBP could be styled in such a way that the pound-sterling symbol is prepended (or appended, according to the applicable language), in the same way that q tags don't require separate quote marks - how would this degrade on non-CSS browsers, though?] This could equally be achieved by a new (X)HTML tag: currency type=GBP5.99/currency or some other mechanism; I'll use that hypothetical tag from now on, for illustrative purposes. Consider a defunct currency; one old UK Shilling (written 1/ or 1/-, they hyphen representing zero pennies; equivalent of a modern GBP 0.05): currency type=GBP unit=shilling1/currency and: currency type=GBP unit=old-penny6/currency or: currency type=GBP equivalence=0.051//currency and: currency type=GBP equivalence=0.025-/6/currency Indeed, we may wish to enable our user-agents to interpret an amount of money in modern parlance: currency type=GBP unit=shilling date=18901/currency Might be interpreted as: 1/- (worth pound;4.50 [1] in modern terms) There would be further complications where the entire currency has disappeared, (such as French Francs into Euros) rather than just the fractions of the main unit (as old English shillings/ pennies, into new pence): currency type=FFR equivalence=EUR0/1.5210/currency [1] or whatever -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Currency microformat
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Charles Iliya Krempeaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Maybe something like... Pay me abbr class=currency title=CAD$/abbr5.00 now! Although something like the the following might be better... Pay me span class=moneyabbr class=currency title=CAD$/abbr5.00/span now! To me, the latter is better, because the number is included in the markup, not merely the symbol. -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
