Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues, i can't create my own tagspace!
--- sorry if i came across as elitist, but that is my opinion. rel-tag is about tags, not how to setup tag spaces. I think it is a much better approach is to NOT change the spec to correspond with broken implementations. To encourage adoption, i would suggest (and many have) add to the wiki alternatives and ways to work around the limitations of servers and software. One of the biggest complains is with IIS. (i had a look on the wiki and it is burried) But there is software that can be installed on Windows to allow for the creation of Tagspaces. I think this highlights the problem. In a perfect world, people will be motivated enough to follow standards. But in the real world, we're asking people to go to their organisation's server admins with hey guys you have to install stuff on the servers for a purpose you don't know or care about because some spec requires we change our file structure. It makes it harder to sell the concept and if it comes down to something like standards compliance (eg. xhtml validation) vs. uf compliance, advocates will drop ufs for the larger goal. So while purity of uf standards is nice, rel-tag is restrictive in terms of URL requirements and this clashes with real world considerations like human nature :) So even if the decision is to stick with the standard, the uf movement had better accept that it will be that much harder to advocate for its adoption. So the support documentation had better be seriously hot. The wiki does need to expand on the material that's there and (as I mentioned elsewhere) the standards themselves could expand on the *reasons* behind the requirements they set. I've always found people are more receptive to fixing issues when they can understand the reason. When things seem arbitrary, people tend to dig their heels in far more. Just some thoughts anyway. cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues, i can't create my own tagspace!
On Feb 8, 2007, at 7:10 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes --- i agree with all of this, and that is why microformats do not force you to use your own tagspace. There are plenty of sites that can easily be used as tagspaces[1] There's also an implicit assumption that publishers (who don't have their own tag spaces) are (or should be) willing to litter their pages with links to third party websites. I've yet to see any justification for that assumption. The several million existing users of rel-tag are sufficient justification for me. If your second party website (the blog hosting service) is not sufficient eg wordpress, blogger or livejournal), and you can't find a third party tagspace who represents your tag's definition, I am a little stumped. What is the actual objection here? You could put rel=tag nofollow on them if it is SEO linkjuice related. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues, i can't create my own tagspace!
On Feb 11, 2007, at 10:14 PM, microformats-discuss- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is the actual objection here? You could put rel=tag nofollow on them if it is SEO linkjuice related. What about usability linkjuice? I don't want my users to drift off to a third-party site, and I don't want them presented with a huge array of clickable options. I simply want a machine-consumable, human-readable list of tags. My best option here is something along the lines of: a href=http://tagspace.com/tag; onclick=javascript:return false; style=color:inherit !important; font-style: inherit !important; [add ever-increasing list of span-level element stylings set to inherit ! important]tag/a The URL requirement for rel-tag is elegant, but it's in no way humans- first. This is disturbing not because of it's relation to tagging blog posts in blogging software (which is a simple use of it) but the fact that it's becoming a common means of labeling across microformats: it's optional for categories in hCard, required for categories in hAtom, required for skills in hResume (absurd!), and required for keywords in hReview. Rel-tag is becoming a de-facto standard for any type of taxonomy data in microformats. As the number and complexity of microformats increases, this is going to become a problem for implementors. -- Ryan Cannon Interactive Developer MSI Student, School of Information University of Michigan http://RyanCannon.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues, i can't create my own tagspace!
Brian Suda wrote: I would love to have my host have the latest, greatest version of PHP technology. If they don't i don't go complain to PHP and ask them to back-port functionality to an earlier version. I buck it up and either move hosts, pay for the better service or co-locate my own box. It is silly to think that it is a problem with the specification. Quoting from About Microformats: Designed for humans first and machines second, microformats are a set of simple, open data formats built upon existing and widely adopted standards. This also implies they should be easy to implement. Co-locating your own box and rocking mod_rewrite can hardly be considered easy implementation of a simple data format. while i understand a given server setup might have limitations, that's not a microformats problem, that is your problem. Your taking the elitist way out. I believe it's a microformats problem to encourage adoption and to figure out a standard that will work for the most people. Which is better? A massive dissemination of usable tag metadata, or a smaller subset of tag metadata with pretty URLs? James PS. Nice change of the subject line. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues, i can't create my own tagspace!
On 2/8/07, James Craig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting from About Microformats: Designed for humans first and machines second, microformats are a set of simple, open data formats built upon existing and widely adopted standards. This also implies they should be easy to implement. Co-locating your own box and rocking mod_rewrite can hardly be considered easy implementation of a simple data format. --- i agree with all of this, and that is why microformats do not force you to use your own tagspace. There are plenty of sites that can easily be used as tagspaces[1]. You don't have to co-locate or rock mod_rewrite, but then you can't use that as an excuse when the alternative is to link to ANY tagspace. It is likely that most sites will WANT to create their own tagspace so we should certainly document problems and offer alternatives. But server setup is orthagonal to microformats. Your taking the elitist way out. I believe it's a microformats problem to encourage adoption and to figure out a standard that will work for the most people. Which is better? A massive dissemination of usable tag metadata, or a smaller subset of tag metadata with pretty URLs? --- sorry if i came across as elitist, but that is my opinion. rel-tag is about tags, not how to setup tag spaces. I think it is a much better approach is to NOT change the spec to correspond with broken implementations. To encourage adoption, i would suggest (and many have) add to the wiki alternatives and ways to work around the limitations of servers and software. One of the biggest complains is with IIS. (i had a look on the wiki and it is burried) But there is software that can be installed on Windows to allow for the creation of Tagspaces. More information on actually implementing a tag space would be helpful. I wrote a tagging system on our intranet and we run IIS. So I had to install URLrewrite (ISAPI) to create the URI /tag/tagname. We horrible Microsoft people aren't as lucky to have Mod Rewrite. Many of these should be pulled out onto a wiki page, so next time when folks say My server doesn't allow tagspaces we can point them to the wiki page, with alternatives, fixes, suggestions, etc. -brian [1] - http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-spaces -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Rel-tag issues, i can't create my own tagspace!
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes --- i agree with all of this, and that is why microformats do not force you to use your own tagspace. There are plenty of sites that can easily be used as tagspaces[1] There's also an implicit assumption that publishers (who don't have their own tag spaces) are (or should be) willing to litter their pages with links to third party websites. I've yet to see any justification for that assumption. -- Andy Mabbett http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/ Welcome to the 36-day week! ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
