Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
On 11/27/05, frantisek holop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it shouldn't. you might get files landing in the wrong directory (i'm not really sure this is possible either, but it's probably the worst that could happen), but there shouldn't be any real disk corruption. i had files not showing up on the fat partition right after moving them over from ffs. windows chkdsk found them as lost clusters so apart losing their names, they were ok ;-) that would be a different problem. when did it happen?
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
On 11/28/05, Ted Unangst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/27/05, frantisek holop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it shouldn't. you might get files landing in the wrong directory (i'm not really sure this is possible either, but it's probably the worst that could happen), but there shouldn't be any real disk corruption. i had files not showing up on the fat partition right after moving them over from ffs. windows chkdsk found them as lost clusters so apart losing their names, they were ok ;-) that would be a different problem. when did it happen? I have had this problem of files not showing up on the fat partition after moving the files over from ffs also. I dual boot OpenBSD 3.8 and Windows XP on my laptop. Both os's share a fat partition. For my particular case, I put Windows XP into hibernation mode and booted to OpenBSD. I copied some ogg files from the ffs partition to the fat partition. I was able to play the ogg files from the fat partition with mplayer fine. On a boot to Windows XP, I was unable to see the directories that held my ogg files. I rebooted back to OpenBSD and the files were now not seen from OpenBSD. When I shutdown Windows cleanly and move the files to the fat partition from OpenBSD, then Windows seems to see the files fines.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 09:47:25PM -0600, Tan Dang wrote: I dual boot OpenBSD 3.8 and Windows XP on my laptop. Both os's share a fat partition. For my particular case, I put Windows XP into hibernation mode and booted to OpenBSD. I copied some ogg files from the ffs partition to the fat partition. I was able to play the ogg files from the fat partition with mplayer fine. On a boot to Windows XP, I was unable to see the directories that held my ogg files. I rebooted back to OpenBSD and the files were now not seen from OpenBSD. When I shutdown Windows cleanly and move the files to the fat partition from OpenBSD, then Windows seems to see the files fines. This is operator error. Each operating system expects exclusive write access to a logical disk device -- in this case, the FAT partition. What you did was to have a mounted partition on Windows, that you wrote upon with OpenBSD, and Windows was never aware of. Any changes you made to the magnetic media was without the knowledge of Windows. Windows, like any operating system, keeps structure information in memory, and expects exclusive access.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005, Tan Dang wrote: I have had this problem of files not showing up on the fat partition after moving the files over from ffs also. I dual boot OpenBSD 3.8 and Windows XP on my laptop. Both os's share a fat partition. For my particular case, I put Windows XP into hibernation mode and booted to OpenBSD. I copied some ogg files from the ffs partition to the fat partition. I was able to play the ogg files from the fat partition with mplayer fine. On a boot to Windows XP, I was unable to see the directories that held my ogg files. I rebooted back to OpenBSD and the files were now not seen from OpenBSD. When I shutdown Windows cleanly and move the files to the fat partition from OpenBSD, then Windows seems to see the files fines. You are asking for trouble if you are doing this - it is likely that Windows is caching filesystem metadata and not refreshing it when it resumes from suspend. Don't fiddle with an (effectively) mounted device. -d
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
On 11/28/05, Tan Dang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have had this problem of files not showing up on the fat partition after moving the files over from ffs also. I dual boot OpenBSD 3.8 and Windows XP on my laptop. Both os's share a fat partition. For my particular case, I put Windows XP into hibernation mode and booted to OpenBSD. I copied some ogg files from the ffs partition to the fat partition. I was able to play the ogg files from the fat partition with mplayer fine. On a boot to Windows XP, I was unable to see the directories that held my ogg files. I rebooted back to OpenBSD and the files were now not seen from OpenBSD. i would never under any circumstances ever do this.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
On 11/27/05, Alexander Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was wondering if this could cause a lot of other errors, like corrupted files and such. I am thinking about if I dare to mount and use msdos filesystems r/w again... But then again, if noone dares to do it, we'll never know if it works as it is supposed to, so maybe it's better to just backup regularly and go for it! :-) it shouldn't. you might get files landing in the wrong directory (i'm not really sure this is possible either, but it's probably the worst that could happen), but there shouldn't be any real disk corruption.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
On 11/25/05, Alexander Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: $ mkdir a aa ab $ find . . ./a ./aa ./ab $ mv aa ab a $ find . . ./a ./a/aa $ ll a total 16 drwxrwxrwx 1 root wheel 4096 Nov 26 00:52 aa/ drwxrwxrwx 1 root wheel 4096 Nov 26 00:52 ab/ $ find -L . . ./a ./a/aa ./a/ab there may be a missing cache_purge in msdosfs_rename.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
On Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 01:45:47AM -0800, Ted Unangst wrote:
there may be a missing cache_purge in msdosfs_rename.
I've looked at the code and yes, you're correct. There was a missing
cache_purge() in msdosfs_rename(), and that fixed the issue for me.
Alexander, can you confirm the problem is gone?
-p.
Index: msdosfs_vnops.c
===
RCS file: /cvs/src/sys/msdosfs/msdosfs_vnops.c,v
retrieving revision 1.55
diff -u -r1.55 msdosfs_vnops.c
--- msdosfs_vnops.c 19 Nov 2005 02:18:01 - 1.55
+++ msdosfs_vnops.c 26 Nov 2005 14:27:32 -
@@ -1151,6 +1151,9 @@
VOP_UNLOCK(fdvp, 0, p);
goto bad;
}
+
+ cache_purge(fvp);
+
if (!doingdirectory) {
error = pcbmap(dp, de_cluster(pmp, to_diroffset), 0,
ip-de_dirclust, 0);
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
A long time ago, Pedro Martelletto wrote: Alexander, can you please try to build a test-case that rules out NFS, if at all possible? I ran into this just this week while moving stuff like crazy. Succeeded to boil stuff down to a very limited set of operations that fscks things up. I run tests on a (disposable :) vnd device but I got the same results on an ordinary partition (wd0n). Upgraded to snapshot from Nov 25 to make sure this wasn't fixed since I noticed some changes but no better luck there. Maybe you, or anyone else, can do somthing of it. Fails like a charm every time for me. /Alexander $ dd if=/dev/zero of=msdos_fs bs=1024 count=1024 1024+0 records in 1024+0 records out 1048576 bytes transferred in 0.014 secs (70148247 bytes/sec) $ sudo vnconfig vnd0 msdos_fs $ sudo newfs_msdos /dev/rvnd0c /dev/rvnd0c: 2008 sectors in 251 FAT12 clusters (4096 bytes/cluster) bps=512 spc=8 res=1 nft=2 rde=512 sec=2048 mid=0xf0 spf=1 spt=63 hds=1 hid=0 $ sudo mount_msdos -m 777 -l /dev/vnd0c /mnt/test/ $ cd /mnt/test $ mkdir a aa ab $ find . . ./a ./aa ./ab $ mv aa ab a $ find . . ./a ./a/aa $ ll a total 16 drwxrwxrwx 1 root wheel 4096 Nov 26 00:52 aa/ drwxrwxrwx 1 root wheel 4096 Nov 26 00:52 ab/ $ find -L . . ./a ./a/aa ./a/ab
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
On Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 12:57:06AM +0100, Alexander Hall wrote: $ dd if=/dev/zero of=msdos_fs bs=1024 count=1024 $ sudo vnconfig vnd0 msdos_fs $ sudo newfs_msdos /dev/rvnd0c $ sudo mount_msdos -m 777 -l /dev/vnd0c /mnt/test/ $ cd /mnt/test $ mkdir a aa ab $ find . . ./a ./aa ./ab Interesting. If you don't do this preliminary 'find', then all is fine. $ mv aa ab a $ find . . ./a ./a/aa $ ll a total 16 drwxrwxrwx 1 root wheel 4096 Nov 26 00:52 aa/ drwxrwxrwx 1 root wheel 4096 Nov 26 00:52 ab/ $ find -L . . ./a ./a/aa ./a/ab And if you try 'rm -rf a' now, you're likely to get: rm: fts_read: No such file or directory -p.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
Pedro Martelletto wrote: On Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 12:57:06AM +0100, Alexander Hall wrote: $ dd if=/dev/zero of=msdos_fs bs=1024 count=1024 $ sudo vnconfig vnd0 msdos_fs $ sudo newfs_msdos /dev/rvnd0c $ sudo mount_msdos -m 777 -l /dev/vnd0c /mnt/test/ $ cd /mnt/test $ mkdir a aa ab $ find . . ./a ./aa ./ab Interesting. If you don't do this preliminary 'find', then all is fine. Yes I noticed that, too. :) $ mv aa ab a If I do ``mv aa a; mv ab a'', all is fine, too. AFAICT, this should require the exact same syscalls to perform as ``mv aa ab a''; one for each file to move. It seems that if things happen too fast things go bad. Thinking of it, since the first find is required to get bad results, I get the feeling that some caches/vnodes/... are populated with corrupted values, (but I don't know much about this, so I maybe just better stop guessing). What I mean is that if so, the error must not be within rename. $ find . . ./a ./a/aa $ ll a total 16 drwxrwxrwx 1 root wheel 4096 Nov 26 00:52 aa/ drwxrwxrwx 1 root wheel 4096 Nov 26 00:52 ab/ $ find -L . . ./a ./a/aa ./a/ab This one is funny. Don't ask me how come I tested it. Symlinks on msdosfs? And what are they linking to? :) And if you try 'rm -rf a' now, you're likely to get: rm: fts_read: No such file or directory Actually, after testing copying aa and ab separately, I cannot reproduce the previous errors again. Maybe a reboot will help. FWIW, I think that unmounting and mounting the fs again restored the order (or so it seemed). Please let me know if there is anything else I can do to help you. /Alexander
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
On Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 03:05:30AM +0100, Alexander Hall wrote: Actually, after testing copying aa and ab separately, I cannot reproduce the previous errors again. Maybe a reboot will help. FWIW, I think that unmounting and mounting the fs again restored the order (or so it seemed). Please let me know if there is anything else I can do to help you. /Alexander On a side note, I'm fairly convinced it has someting to do with the FTS_PHYSICAL option being passed to fts_open(3). That's why 'find -L' works. -p.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
frantisek holop 29-Sep-05 01:23 hmm, on Wed, Sep 28, 2005 at 07:55:26PM -0300, Pedro Martelletto said that No, I don't, but that's simply not needed. Just a note saying I was running OpenBSD version X, kernel dated Y, on an environment Z, and suddenly everything was gone would be a start. so which part of the referenced mail you don't understand? (http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-miscm=110488032901414w=2) let me see: openbsd version: check kernel dated: check environment: check instructions to repeat (even though somewhat vague, what can you do, it's the nature of the bug): check And which bit of send bug reports to bugs@, or use sendbug(1) didn't you understand? Few developers read [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is not the place to report bugs. Bugs reported here will often go unnoticed. Bugs filed using sendbug will be looked at again and again. Tom
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
Guys Thanks for taking the trouble to send something more concrete about how to reproduce the problem. I have found the bug, and just committed the fix. The next snapshots will have it in, so please test, and help us make sure there are no side effects! Finally, to the person who said there are plenty of reference implementations, it seems that NetBSD has the same bug. There will always be bugs. With good bug reports (ideally to the right places!) we can track things down and fix them. Tom
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
Guys Thanks for taking the trouble to send something more concrete about how to reproduce the problem. I have found the bug, and just committed the fix. The next snapshots will have it in, so please test, and help us make sure there are no side effects! Thank you so much! Hosing (seemingly) supported file systems is really something that can turn you into a wild boar... I will definitly download the next snapshot ASAP! From my point of view I can understand why people rather send their bugs to misc rather than use sendbug. It is the response or feedback they want to get before submitting plain out dumb bug reports. Most of the time (that is NOT only for OpenBSD) they are right to do that because it is THEIR fault. I want to submit a bug report since quite a while about my onboard skc card not being detected correctly (getting attached and detached right after that in dmesg). (no I don't want to high jack this thread, just an example) On the other hand I really love OpenBSD and don't want to blame developers for unsupported hardware. Now what should I do about my network card? Send describtion of problem 1.) to misc@ ? 2.) use sendbug ? 3.) to tech@ ? This is a thing in general not being clear to me. Regards, ahb
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
Andreas Bihlmaier 8-Oct-05 15:20 From my point of view I can understand why people rather send their bugs to misc rather than use sendbug. It is the response or feedback they want to get before submitting plain out dumb bug reports. Most of the time (that is NOT only for OpenBSD) they are right to do that because it is THEIR fault. I want to submit a bug report since quite a while about my onboard skc card not being detected correctly (getting attached and detached right after that in dmesg). (no I don't want to high jack this thread, just an example) On the other hand I really love OpenBSD and don't want to blame developers for unsupported hardware. Now what should I do about my network card? Send describtion of problem 1.) to misc@ ? 2.) use sendbug ? 3.) to tech@ ? Plenty of bug reports start out as threads on [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you're not sure, ask on [EMAIL PROTECTED] If it appears that there's a genuine problem, use sendbug(1) (preferred) or post to [EMAIL PROTECTED] As a rule of thumb, don't post to tech@ unless you are including a diff to fix/add something. Even the developers post to tech@ from time to time, to get a wider testing audience. Thanks Tom
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
Tom Cosgrove wrote: Andreas Bihlmaier 8-Oct-05 15:20 ... Now what should I do about my network card? Send describtion of problem 1.) to misc@ ? 2.) use sendbug ? 3.) to tech@ ? Plenty of bug reports start out as threads on [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you're not sure, ask on [EMAIL PROTECTED] If it appears that there's a genuine problem, use sendbug(1) (preferred) or post to [EMAIL PROTECTED] As a rule of thumb, don't post to tech@ unless you are including a diff to fix/add something. Even the developers post to tech@ from time to time, to get a wider testing audience. heh. That's the nice way of saying what I was just saying. 'cept I had a line of all caps on the don't post to tech@ part. :) Nick. (nowhere near as nice and civil as Tom)
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
hmm, on Sat, Oct 08, 2005 at 10:50:01AM +0100, Tom Cosgrove said that frantisek holop 29-Sep-05 01:23 hmm, on Wed, Sep 28, 2005 at 07:55:26PM -0300, Pedro Martelletto said that No, I don't, but that's simply not needed. Just a note saying I was running OpenBSD version X, kernel dated Y, on an environment Z, and suddenly everything was gone would be a start. so which part of the referenced mail you don't understand? (http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-miscm=110488032901414w=2) let me see: openbsd version: check kernel dated: check environment: check instructions to repeat (even though somewhat vague, what can you do, it's the nature of the bug): check And which bit of send bug reports to bugs@, or use sendbug(1) didn't you understand? Few developers read [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is not the place to report bugs. Bugs reported here will often go unnoticed. Bugs filed using sendbug will be looked at again and again. it was not just _me_ who thought that the information which could be provided is too vague for a proper bug report... it was everyone... but let me be one of the first who thank you for your effort. -f -- senility means never having to drink just to forget.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
I can confirm this behaviour. But, I can still mount and use the partition. I'm using 3.7. What I get is: 1) say /mnt/ms/ directory contains 1, 2, 3 directories with a bunch of stuff in them. 2) cd /mnt/ms/; mkdir 4; mv * 4 3) cd 4 4) ls and 1, 2, 3 gets listed. But, if I cd into any of these directories I get: ls: .: No such file or directory Still able to mount it and everything. And the filesystem still tells me the space is used. Just can't see any of it. I was waiting till I was able to form a proper report (ie upgrade to 3.8 at least) on this, but since we're talking about it already thought I'd add in my report. best regards, Reid Nichol --- Andreas Bihlmaier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't want to heat up this discussion even further, BUT mount a FAT32 partition somewhere and cp /some_folder /mnt/fat There should be files (the more the better) in the directory (they should NOT be empty). Now use cmp or diff to compare the directories. Everything still correct ? Good because it should be! BUT NOW move that directory INSIDE the FAT32 Partition, something a long the lines of mkdir -p /mnt/fat/foo/bar/foobar/ mv /mnt/fat/some_folder/ /mnt/fat/foo/bar/foobar/ NOW use diff again. Should be hosed up like hell. At least that is what I get/got 1 week ago on i386 AND amd64. With a 1 week old snapshot. Had the same issue with 3.7 stable. Don't have a FAT parition anymore since! Was this information helpful ? try to reproduce it. Greetz, ahb
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
frantisek holop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i am sorry to see that solid fat32 support is just not a priority for openbsd. i can understand that, i don't imagine Theo has a dual boot fat32 shared partition on any of his machines. Oh, come on. He is trying to fix the problem and there have been plenty of commits to FAT in the last year. And for me it has been rock solid. Let me then tell you how Windows XP flushed my USB drive to bitheaven because i used fdisk to make a normal partition table on it. ps. and it's really a _shame_ that i can access my openbsd partition without a hiccup even from xp. http://ffsdrv.sourceforge.net/ heart paining shame. And let me continue to tell you how ffsdrv blew my OpenBSD partition to bitheaven. Happy happy joy this was on my experiment machine and even that I had backed up.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
Hi Jan, On 29/09/2005, at 4:14 PM, Jan Johansson wrote: Let me then tell you how Windows XP flushed my USB drive to bitheaven because i used fdisk to make a normal partition table on it. XP has stuffed me up too on occasion. I try to stay well away from 2000/XP Disk Manager. (Is that what it's called?) From memory, if your partitions are not in sequential order (2,1,3,4 for example) and you then run Disk Manager, it fixes the situation, but what you end up with is Windows partitions that are okay, but any non MS partitions are hosed. Why they can't just leave a working config alone is beyond me. Another thing that has annoyed me in the past, is that the boot loader for XP at least (I think possibly also 2k), does not count partition numbers from what the partition table states, but actually where they appear on disk. If I have a blank area reserved as a future partition 2 at the beginning of the disk and Windows has partition 1 after that, if I later use the blank area say for OpenBSD as partition 2, I think I am safe because the partition number for Windows has not changed. Think again, Windows no longer boots. So I have to fix it by changing the boot.ini entry. Then one day if I accidentally run the disastrous Disk Manager, I am stuffed once again. Also, I always safely remove my USB storage devices and wait for the access light to go out and every now and then I suffer from lost files or sometimes even entire file systems. MS provides some crazy situations with their own systems. I agree that MS is hardly a role model for this sort of stuff. BTW, I have not noticed any problems with -t msdos. Maybe I don't use it often enough. Bye for now, Shane J Pearson
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
I don't want to heat up this discussion even further, BUT mount a FAT32 partition somewhere and cp /some_folder /mnt/fat There should be files (the more the better) in the directory (they should NOT be empty). Now use cmp or diff to compare the directories. Everything still correct ? Good because it should be! BUT NOW move that directory INSIDE the FAT32 Partition, something a long the lines of mkdir -p /mnt/fat/foo/bar/foobar/ mv /mnt/fat/some_folder/ /mnt/fat/foo/bar/foobar/ NOW use diff again. Should be hosed up like hell. At least that is what I get/got 1 week ago on i386 AND amd64. With a 1 week old snapshot. Had the same issue with 3.7 stable. Don't have a FAT parition anymore since! Was this information helpful ? try to reproduce it. Greetz, ahb
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
Oh Cool! I happen to be unlucky enough to have such a setup. Just for fun I copied my /usr/local (bad idea, too big) to my fat32 partition as provided by the instructions far below. I took a quick look around the file structure and then immediately unmounted it, and gave it an fsck. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- # mount /dev/wd1a on / type ffs (local, softdep) /dev/wd0j on /mnt/wd0j type msdos (local) # df -h Filesystem SizeUsed Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/wd1a 12.8G1.7G 10.5G14%/ /dev/wd0j 19.5G4.7G 14.8G24%/mnt/wd0j # disklabel wd0 disklabel: warning, DOS partition table with no valid OpenBSD partition # /dev/rwd0c: type: ESDI disk: ESDI/IDE disk label: ST380011A flags: bytes/sector: 512 sectors/track: 63 tracks/cylinder: 16 sectors/cylinder: 1008 cylinders: 16383 total sectors: 156301488 rpm: 3600 interleave: 1 trackskew: 0 cylinderskew: 0 headswitch: 0 # microseconds track-to-track seek: 0 # microseconds drivedata: 0 16 partitions: 16 partitions: # sizeoffset fstype [fsize bsize cpg] c: 156301488 0 unused 0 0 # Cyl 0 -155060 i: 8191537263 unknown # Cyl 0*- 81265* j: 40965687 81915498 MSDOS # Cyl 81265*-121905* # mkdir /mnt/wd0j/hosed # cp -R /usr/local/* /mnt/wd0j/hosed cp: symlink: isoinfo.1: Operation not supported !- blah blah symlink blah blah blah -! cp: symlink: bzmore: Operation not supported # diff /usr/local/ /mnt/wd0j/hosed Common subdirectories: /usr/local/bin and /mnt/wd0j/hosed/bin Common subdirectories: /usr/local/include and /mnt/wd0j/hosed/include Common subdirectories: /usr/local/info and /mnt/wd0j/hosed/info Common subdirectories: /usr/local/lib and /mnt/wd0j/hosed/lib Common subdirectories: /usr/local/libdata and /mnt/wd0j/hosed/libdata Common subdirectories: /usr/local/libexec and /mnt/wd0j/hosed/libexec Common subdirectories: /usr/local/man and /mnt/wd0j/hosed/man Common subdirectories: /usr/local/mozilla-firefox and /mnt/wd0j/hosed/mozilla-firefox Common subdirectories: /usr/local/sbin and /mnt/wd0j/hosed/sbin Common subdirectories: /usr/local/share and /mnt/wd0j/hosed/share # mkdir /mnt/wd0j/now_hosed # mv /mnt/wd0j/hosed /mnt/wd0j/now_hosed # diff /usr/local /mnt/wd0j/now_hosed Only in /usr/local: bin Only in /mnt/wd0j/now_hosed: hosed Only in /usr/local: include Only in /usr/local: info Only in /usr/local: lib ... !- etc -! # cd now_hosed # ls hosed # cd hosed # pwd /mnt/wd0j/now_hosed/hosed/hosed/hosed # cd / # umount /mnt/wd0j # fsck -t msdos /mnt/wd0j ** /dev/rwd0j ** Phase 1 - Read and Compare FATs ** Phase 2 - Check Cluster Chains ** Phase 3 - Check Directories `.' entry in /now_hosed/hosed has incorrect start cluster Correct? [yn] y ** Phase 4 - Check for Lost Files 7764 files, 2589184 free (948256 clusters) * FILE SYSTEM WAS MODIFIED * =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Then like the idiot I am, I rm -f'd the directory tree instead of looking around to see how much was recovered. Well, I figure that is enough info for now if anyone wants me to do more testing just email me back. I would like to point out though the rest of my directories on the fat32 partition look to be unaffected... Cheers! On 29/09/05, Andreas Bihlmaier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't want to heat up this discussion even further, BUT mount a FAT32 partition somewhere and cp /some_folder /mnt/fat There should be files (the more the better) in the directory (they should NOT be empty). Now use cmp or diff to compare the directories. Everything still correct ? Good because it should be! BUT NOW move that directory INSIDE the FAT32 Partition, something a long the lines of mkdir -p /mnt/fat/foo/bar/foobar/ mv /mnt/fat/some_folder/ /mnt/fat/foo/bar/foobar/ NOW use diff again. Should be hosed up like hell. At least that is what I get/got 1 week ago on i386 AND amd64. With a 1 week old snapshot. Had the same issue with 3.7 stable. Don't have a FAT parition anymore since! Was this information helpful ? try to reproduce it. Greetz, ahb -- I know too much and yet not enough
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
hmm, on Thu, Sep 15, 2005 at 12:02:42PM +0200, Alexander Hall said that Ted Unangst wrote: On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alexander Hall wrote: I think that bad stuff happens when I move directories around. Windows checkdisk (at boot time) once complained about a lot of . and .. directory entried that were invalid. I cannot recall if this was done remotely using shlight or nfs, or local. there are some issues with msdos, particularly in the directory writing code. making or moving directories tends to result in badness. Oh, that's bad. I have never heard of that before. So running windows on the machine and remotely mounting the disk using shlight should be the preferred way? (I realize the preferred way would be to not use windows at all and mount_nfs a remote ffs file system but that is not my setup right now) Maybe a warning in in mount_msdos about mounting MS-DOS file systems read-write, like the one in mount_ntfs, would be in order? i think mount_msdos should be disabled as of now. it is/was causing me too much grief... i don't understand how can be the quality of the vfat file system so bad in openbsd. it does not go hand in hand with the great quality and stability of the system. if nobody cares to fix it, disable it like mount_null. i also don't understand how is it possible that operations on this primitive file system tends to result in badness. especially when so much reference implementations are floating around (all the other bsd's, linux, embedded devices). fix it or disable it. it is giving openbsd a bad name. forgive me my bitterness. i am mourning my lost files. -f -- the best defense against laser is to polish your ship.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
frantisek holop wrote: i think mount_msdos should be disabled as of now. it is/was causing me too much grief... i don't understand how can be the quality of the vfat file system so bad in openbsd. it does not go hand in hand with the great quality and stability of the system. if nobody cares to fix it, disable it like mount_null. i also don't understand how is it possible that operations on this primitive file system tends to result in badness. especially when so much reference implementations are floating around (all the other bsd's, linux, embedded devices). fix it or disable it. it is giving openbsd a bad name. forgive me my bitterness. i am mourning my lost files. Interesting to hear more people having issues with mount_msdos. Before I brought the subject up on the list, I had not heard anything about this. Since I now heard about the status of mount_msdos, I only mount msdos partitions read-only. I hope not to have any issues with that. My first complication led to most of my digital camera images were unreachable. Thanks to decent fragmentation status of the disk and two somewhat decent hacks, most of them were saved though. The programs were actually first used for my brother after he reinstalling windows without first moving the images away from ``C:\Program Files\Canon...''. It's such an excellent default storage place for your images, don't you think? For the archives: Feel free to email me if you need to extract .jpg's or .avi's from a disk (or it's ripped image file). The hacks are in local CVS. :-) /Alexander
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
From: frantisek holop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] i also don't understand how is it possible that operations on this primitive file system tends to result in badness. especially when so much reference implementations are floating around (all the other bsd's, linux, embedded devices). fix it or disable it. it is giving openbsd a bad name. No it isn't. Consider the number of people that actually *use* the antiquated piece of garbage file system. Now compare that to those using OpenBSD. Probably a small portion, no? Want it fixed? Submit patches. Use your wide array of reference implementations to fix it, since it's such a hot item on your plate. forgive me my bitterness. i am mourning my lost files. And consequently whining like a little bitch. Ever heard of backups? DS
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
Alexander and Frantisek, It should be of no surprise that if you don't step up and report an issue, it won't get fixed. Sending a description of the problem to misc@ is not the correct way of submitting a report. Doing so is more or less like whispering on a large avenue that your car is broken and expecting the car repairman 3 or 4 blocks away to hear it. bugs@ is the right place to go, preferably with a (filled) formal PR like the ones sendbug(1) generates for you. Having two separate lists is the only way we have to differentiate between the usual amount of discussions that this list is meant for, and punctual bug reports that could be worked on. That said, let's get on what actually matters: Alexander, can you please try to build a test-case that rules out NFS, if at all possible? It certainly looks like the culprit. Also, are you still running 3.7, or have you tried a more recent version of OpenBSD? If you have, were you still able to reproduce the same problems? Finally, please don't say you have cool diffs to make things work, and that if people want to do X or Y under OpenBSD, they should go talk to you. Submit them for review. This is not Linux. Frantisek, I unfortunately have no idea as to what kind of issues you were running into. Could you please send me the details of the problem you had, or point me anywhere I could find them? Anyway, please reply to me privately, or even better, submit PRs through sendbug(1), and I will get back to you. -p.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
http://www.openbsd.org/report.html is also an excellent source of information on how to report issues, so they can get fixed. -p.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
hmm, on Wed, Sep 28, 2005 at 05:25:11PM -0300, Pedro Martelletto said that bugs@ is the right place to go, preferably with a (filled) formal PR like the ones sendbug(1) generates for you. Having two separate lists is the only way we have to differentiate between the usual amount of discussions that this list is meant for, and punctual bug reports that could be worked on. i know very well how to report bugs thank you very much. been on the list for quite some time now. to use your car repairsman example: do you expect me to wreck my car AGAIN so just i can report you what went wrong? i am sorry but my files are not rabbits to conduct experiments on. this is the biggest problem with file system bug reports. i don't have 40 systems lying around like Theo does. regarding my other issues, because you had the courtesy of lecturing me, let me sink that low and ask you: have you searched the archives? http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-miscm=110488032901414w=2 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-miscm=110246291210267w=2 look, i am really not a rude person. not at all. and being an openbsd otaku since 2.6 i have never sunk that low as to rant about openbsd. this is the system of my choice since 2.6 and i help when i can. and i know how it goes around here, because i am not willing to/and simply can't sacrifice my files perhaps the dev's will tell me to piss off w/o a proper bug report. suits me fine, what could they do? sacrifice _their_ files? i am sorry to see that solid fat32 support is just not a priority for openbsd. i can understand that, i don't imagine Theo has a dual boot fat32 shared partition on any of his machines. in any case, i expect the devs to do the same they always do with an underperforming subsystem: disable until fixed. that's the openbsd way. -f ps. and it's really a _shame_ that i can access my openbsd partition without a hiccup even from xp. http://ffsdrv.sourceforge.net/ heart paining shame. -- the smallest handcuff in the world is a wedding ring.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
hmm, on Wed, Sep 28, 2005 at 11:30:50AM -0700, Spruell, Darren-Perot said that No it isn't. Consider the number of people that actually *use* the antiquated piece of garbage file system. Now compare that to those using OpenBSD. Probably a small portion, no? consider the number of people who are trying hard to make openbsd also a desktop system so we don't have to install linux or some such thingy just to access the goddamn primitive fat partition. cause guess what: i don't care about vfat on my firewalls. Want it fixed? Submit patches. Use your wide array of reference implementations to fix it, since it's such a hot item on your plate. forgive me my bitterness. i am mourning my lost files. And consequently whining like a little bitch. Ever heard of backups? oh, send patches says the man whose name turns up 0 bug reports in gnats. but as i look at your posts, you are more of the philospher type, aren't you? sorry, you are not on my list of people who have the right to say send patches. who are you anyway? where are _your_ patches? i say it again so you can get it into your head: i cannot send a patch (yeah i am a loser) but if it doesnt work realiable TURN IT OFF just as aac(4) is a goner. your post contributed exactly nill to this discussion. just as this one, unfortunately. what a day. -f ps. at least you could use a mail client which can reply to threads. -- courage is fear that has said its prayers.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
On Wed, Sep 28, 2005 at 11:44:31PM +0200, frantisek holop wrote: i know very well how to report bugs thank you very much. So why didn't you? been on the list for quite some time now. to use your car repairsman example: do you expect me to wreck my car AGAIN so just i can report you what went wrong? No, I don't, but that's simply not needed. Just a note saying I was running OpenBSD version X, kernel dated Y, on an environment Z, and suddenly everything was gone would be a start. And you seem to be able to send mail... What is a totally pathetic posture is to stay in silence and hope your problems are going to get fixed magically. Or do you believe in miracles? Or did you light up a candle and sang kumbaya, danced naked in a circle or...? Because no divinity appeared to me (yet) saying I should fix your problem. Perhaps you should try harder? i am sorry but my files are not rabbits to conduct experiments on. Like your files are more important than anyone else's. Like your files are more important than my files. Give me a break. regarding my other issues, because you had the courtesy of lecturing me, let me sink that low and ask you: have you searched the archives? Heh, yeah, right. So now, besides not having the issues reported where they should be, developers should have to search every single mailing list out there looking for issues to fix? Before I have the courtesy of fixing your problems, could you please leave your ego for a second, and realize you're just plain wrong? http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-miscm=110488032901414w=2 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-miscm=110246291210267w=2 Oh, right. You can mail misc@, but you can't mail bugs@ -- and yet you do know how to send bug reports. I guess you do make a lot of sense as well? and i know how it goes around here, because i am not willing to/and simply can't sacrifice my files perhaps the dev's will tell me to piss off w/o a proper bug report. suits me fine, what could they do? sacrifice _their_ files? That's what just happened, dude. -p.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
Pedro Martelletto wrote: It should be of no surprise that if you don't step up and report an issue, it won't get fixed. As I did not know if it was an issue or if I had done something stupid myself, I never filed a report. I have never claimed I did so. I was wondering what hosed my filesystem, and tedu confirmed that msdosfs very well could be the bad guy. If I were to file a report, it would be more step-by-step and, at best, even repeatable. That said, let's get on what actually matters: Yup. Alexander, can you please try to build a test-case that rules out NFS, if at all possible? It certainly looks like the culprit. Would that mean no NFS at all on the computer, both mounts and exports, or would it be sufficient with no NFS concerning the msdos partition and the sharing thereof? Also, are you still running 3.7, or have you tried a more recent version of OpenBSD? At the time I was running 3.7 on one computer and 3.6 on the other. Since a few days ago, 3.6 is no more since I upgraded to an available snapshot (Sep 2 02:40). That would be on my laptop, where (if I recall correctly) the problems last appeared. If you have, were you still able to reproduce the same problems? No, but as I now mount msdos r/o, I would be surprised if I would have been. :d Finally, please don't say you have cool diffs to make things work, and that if people want to do X or Y under OpenBSD, they should go talk to you. Submit them for review. This is not Linux. Ah, well, they are not diffs. They are more like quick-and-dirty .c programs that scan the disk for things that look like avi's and/or .jpg's. I get what you mean, but I'm simply not THAT proud of them, and I don't think they will contribute much to this list. Anyway, I am in a position quite like Frantisek, i.e. where my wish is _not_ to repeat the problem, since I like to keep my images and data intact. What I _could_ do is to free up some space for a new partition and try to reproduce the problems there. msdosfs should not be able to fsck something up outside of its wdXX now, should it? The coming week/weeks I will be quite occupied, but as this is an issue I would like to have solved, I hope to be able to produce some decent problem reports later on. /Alexander
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
From: frantisek holop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Want it fixed? Submit patches. Use your wide array of reference implementations to fix it, since it's such a hot item on your plate. forgive me my bitterness. i am mourning my lost files. And consequently whining like a little bitch. Ever heard of backups? oh, send patches says the man whose name turns up 0 bug reports in gnats. but as i look at your posts, you are more of the philospher type, aren't you? sorry, you are not on my list of people who have the right to say send patches. who are you anyway? where are _your_ patches? I'm with you. I can't send patches. I don't have the skillz. But I don't have your problems either. And unlike you, I *am* capable of sending a bug report if there is something that needs fixed. You, on the other hand, would rather revert to the maturity of an angry teenager and start yelling at people to fix their shit because you lost some files. I forget, did they not back up your data, or was that your responsibility? You've made your point, something is broken, but you're failing to follow through on it. Disabling aac(4) is the right thing to do because it cannot move forward, regardless if more bug reports come in. Disabling msdos because the relatively few users who do use it can't be bothered to submit meaningful bug reports, but just want it fixed by someone else, won't solve anything. Guess what - you have the most valuable information right now that will help in getting it fixed. Sticking your thumb back in your ass and not chipping in also means your post contributed exactly nill to this discussion. Soon as something doesn't work for me, you'll see me submitting bugs if its not fixed by the time I try to debug it. ps. at least you could use a mail client which can reply to threads. Contact me off list if you want to take that up with my employer. DS
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
hmm, on Wed, Sep 28, 2005 at 07:55:26PM -0300, Pedro Martelletto said that No, I don't, but that's simply not needed. Just a note saying I was running OpenBSD version X, kernel dated Y, on an environment Z, and suddenly everything was gone would be a start. so which part of the referenced mail you don't understand? (http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-miscm=110488032901414w=2) let me see: openbsd version: check kernel dated: check environment: check instructions to repeat (even though somewhat vague, what can you do, it's the nature of the bug): check And you seem to be able to send mail... What is a totally pathetic posture is to stay in silence and hope your problems are going to get fixed magically. Or do you believe in miracles? Or did you light up a candle and sang kumbaya, danced naked in a circle or...? Because no divinity appeared to me (yet) saying I should fix your problem. Perhaps you should try harder? silence? the fat32 implementation gets mails every once in a while. it is certainly not something you have to look for with extra effort in every single mailing list. and yes, silence it is, because every time someone brings up hey, something is wrong with fa32, ted says, oh yes, might result in badness. well, what CAN you do? wiser people than me tried to pinpoint the problem and failed. so yes, it is silence after a while. especially where shut up and code is the motto. Like your files are more important than anyone else's. Like your files are more important than my files. Give me a break. my files are certainly much more important for me than to you, or your files at all for that matter. give me a break. and i have like nothing else to do but backup my x gigs every day because fat32 in openbsd might hose my files on a file system which is more than 20 years old and looked down upon as primitive. great. Before I have the courtesy of fixing your problems, could you please leave your ego for a second, and realize you're just plain wrong? look, your first mail was really friendly, and i know i reacted improperly. it was not against your person and i hope you didn't take it personally, i certainly didn't mean it. one word: frustration. it's just that it's the foul year of our lord 2005 and fat32 is not mature in openbsd. Oh, right. You can mail misc@, but you can't mail bugs@ -- and yet you do know how to send bug reports. I guess you do make a lot of sense as well? the reason why i didn't send that particular mail (or any other mail about fat32) to bugs@ is simple. even though i tried to give as much info as i could i still did not think it was a proper bug report. and it seems, many devs read misc/tech and it's happened a lot of times that they get heads up about an issue on the mailing list, and maybe later a proper bug report is filed. the subtle nature of these sometimes difficult to reproduce bugs was the sole reason i posted only to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -f -- to refuse to decide is a decision.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
hmm, on Wed, Sep 28, 2005 at 05:28:09PM -0700, Spruell, Darren-Perot said that I'm with you. I can't send patches. I don't have the skillz. but But I don't have your problems either. And unlike you, I *am* capable of sending a bug report if there is something that needs fixed. You, on the so you don't have the skills to code but you have the skils to send good bug reports. as i am always willing to learn, please tell me, how would do you file detailed bug reports about this particular issue? just imagine: here we are, a nice peaceful day, you playing away in the nice openbsd world and then you notice something funny: your TODO list which is popped up with xmessage when you login in xdm to yer blackbox shows binary gargabe. the TODO file happened to be a simple ascii text file on your fat32 partition mounted to /fat. you vaguely seem to recall that you edited the file some days ago from openbsd. but everything seemed to be ok. so how would you squeze something MEANINGFUL out from this particular situation a coder w/the skillz can do something with? as a programmer myself, i know what kind of info a coder needs to locate the offending part. you don't have previous states which you could compare to, you don't have reference points. you have nothing. especially when you are not prepared because the man page says nothing about possible hosings. and while we are at it, and hopefully some truly skilled person is reading this, how do you send a meaningful report about file system anomalies? Contact me off list if you want to take that up with my employer. i couldn't care less what mail client u use at work and why are you replying to misc@ mails in your work time. -f -- nothing's impossible to those that don't have to do it.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
Okay, whatever. -p.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
so which part of the referenced mail you don't understand? (http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=openbsd-miscm=110488032901414w=2) let me see: openbsd version: check kernel dated: check environment: check instructions to repeat (even though somewhat vague, what can you do, it's the nature of the bug): check you have been an asshole for a couple of hours now. i would not expect anyone to correspond with you further, at this point. you've made your point. you win. now we don't want to talk to you.
Re: Something hosing my msdos/FAT32 file system
Ted Unangst wrote: On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alexander Hall wrote: I think that bad stuff happens when I move directories around. Windows checkdisk (at boot time) once complained about a lot of . and .. directory entried that were invalid. I cannot recall if this was done remotely using shlight or nfs, or local. there are some issues with msdos, particularly in the directory writing code. making or moving directories tends to result in badness. Oh, that's bad. I have never heard of that before. So running windows on the machine and remotely mounting the disk using shlight should be the preferred way? (I realize the preferred way would be to not use windows at all and mount_nfs a remote ffs file system but that is not my setup right now) Maybe a warning in in mount_msdos about mounting MS-DOS file systems read-write, like the one in mount_ntfs, would be in order? /Alexander
