Re: [Mpls] comment to (no subject)
Our insurance company is covering the cost of medical treatment for my husband's injuries - but won't cover the damage to the vehicle as someone else hit him in 2001 and this is technically the second not-at-fault-accident they would have to pay out for. Regardless, the young man slammed into him while he was at a dead-stop signalling to turn left, and is currently free to drive without a license and insurance. We will likely go after him in civil court per the advice of our attorney. A few points of my own: The article I read mentioned MISDEMEANOR violations - guess it depends on whether or not you consider a misdemeanor a MINOR offense; last I checked a DWI is a misdemeanor...not unlike the charges pending for the recent lead-foot congressman incident. Considering these were repeat offenders it wouldn't be offering them a second chance, but actually a THIRD. And lastly, if litterbugs WERE prosecuted, we wouldn't have to pay OR reward people to pick up their own litter-laden neighborhoods in the first place. Jill Harmon Cleveland _ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] comment to (no subject)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as I understand it, the range was from 2-8 hours depending upon the severity of the violation, and this was determined by a judge after they waited in line for an hour to two. Second, I don't see how anyone can call this light without knowing the actual details of the offenses and punishment. Unless Jason was the one that hit Jill's car and did the damage, it's misleading to say that all this person had to do was 2 hours and that was it. Third, the purpose of this initiative was to give people a second chance. Have them come in, perform some restorative justice service to the community, and start fresh. These were not murderers and rapists, these were people who screwed up, drove without a license, let their insurance lapse, etc. In fact, the common violation for each of the people mentioned was driving without a valid license. A minor offense. I'm not saying that no one there did worse or that this was it, but we're hardly talking about the leader of the GDs for arson. Clearly some have a very different experience with the justice system than those I'm familiar with, my own experiences and those of friends. 2 to 8 hours of community service is getting off lightly, as far as I can tell. A close friend of mine once got nailed in Duluth for driving without a valid license. He had let his insurance lapse due to travel and economic hardship, and with no insurance, your license is no longer valid. He got sentenced to 120 hours of community service, which means that for once a week for 15 weeks he had to take a bus down to Chaska and join a sentence-to-serve work crew for 8 hours of hard labor. Then after that entertainment, he got to retain a lawyer, pay fines and jump through all kinds of bureaucratic hoops to get insurance and a license again. There's a nice little catch-22 that goes on there, too. No license, no insurance. No insurance, no license. Chicken and egg. After 5 or 6 months, thousands of dollars and 120 hours of labor, he was able to drive legally again. He was white and had no record. I once got a misdemeanor speed ticket, based on false, inflated claims by the officer. Had it been a simple petty misdemeanor speeding ticket (the kind most people receive), I would have just paid it. I did the crime, I owed the fine. But instead I got to visit court twice, wasting many hours both times, and got sentenced to 10 days jail and a $600 fine, with the jail time stayed if no like or similar offenses for a year. I'm a conservative, law-abiding, middle-class white guy with no record and only 2 tickets in my entire 30+ years of driving, including the one I just mentioned. On two separate occasions within less than a year of each other, another friend of mine was hit --while stopped -- by other drivers in Minneapolis. Both times the other driver, 100% at fault, had no insurance. One of them was even a taxi cab. Why were those guys still driving? Driving without a valid license or insurance is a minor offense? There's also the argument used for trying to reduce graffiti, a sort of quality of life argument. If minor traffic scofflaws get off over and over, then they and others begin to think the law is meaningless. More importantly, gang-bangers, drug dealers, arsonists and other criminals that perhaps JPalmer would call not minor are well-known for breaking traffic laws with impunity. If you bust every guy running a stop sign and driving a little over the speed limit with a loud stereo, you will find a greater proportion of them than in the general population don't have valid driver's licenses, don't have insurance and the kicker, have long criminal and arrest records. That's precisely why the MPD has decided to crack down on traffic violations in Jordan. They know that such a net will catch lots of criminals. Folks who are willing to shoot people, sell drugs, burn houses, etc. have very little compunction to follow trivial laws like traffic laws. So, how do we know they weren't murderers and rapists? I've never screwed up and driven without a valid license. How forgetful does one have to be to forget they don't have a license and go drive anyway? Exceding the speed limit or rolling through a stop sign is one thing -- it might be perfectly safe given the circumstances -- but driving without a license and hence without insurance is putting the public at financial risk the entire time one is at the wheel. Insurance payments don't grow on trees. We all pay for them. Do you enjoy paying for the behavior of irresponsible people? Restorative justice sounds good. Let's just not forget the justice part of the equation -- the part that means both justice to the accused and justice for the victims, whether an individual or society at large. Chris Johnson Fulton TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain -
[Mpls] comment to (no subject) ...pardon me
I read the article on community work in exchange for clean traffic records. I think Minneapolis needs more creative solutions like this to the help unclog itself of both costly bureaucracy and scofflaws. I do think the 2 hour time required of offenders was far to short. And how was the time clock managed? Did the clock start ticking at the assigned site or did work designation, transportation, tool distribution... all eat away at our 2 hours of pay back? Did we even get two hours? It seems that a lot of effort must have gone into organizing and holding this event. It was a good idea but next time let's get a full days work for our pardon. There is a Night Nusance Court proposal that will soon be tried in Minneapolis that should prove to be a creative solution to the burdensome bureaucracy of prosecuting livability crimes. I've heard this program championed by Council Member Paul Zerby and MPD S.A.F.E. Officer Luther Krueger. The plan would use this Night Court to bring more immediate consequences for summary offenses like public drunkenness, public urination, panhandling etc... Paul said that the City Council had approved the pilot program for the 1st Precinct and that it was hoped that the program would get started sometime after August. Dan Prozinski Cedar Riverside TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
FW: [Mpls] comment to (no subject)
There have been some very interesting comments about racism, and certainly this week and this day, the 40th anniversary of Martin Luther King, Jr.'s I have a dream speech is a good time to thoughtfully pursue these thoughts. I draw your attention to four things that might help in one's deliberations and meditation on racism. The FIRST is the web log entry Thursday in Ron Edwards' Daily Web Log. He opens up in this fashion: #113. This is the day, August 28, The 40th Anniversary of Martin Luther King, Jr.'s I Have a Dream Speech. See my longer paper The Unfinished Dream in honor of this day in the Occasional Papers section of this web site. What is important is not what we do today but what we do tomorrow. What will you do? I'll keep working on the solutions of Chapter 17 of the book The Minneapolis Story, Through My Eyes. The SECOND thing is his referenced The Unfinished Dream at http://www.theminneapolisstory.com/pages/dream.html. For those who want to read the I have a dream speech, you may do so here: http://www.theminneapolisstory.com/pages/dream.html#I The THIRD is for those who think great strides have been made or not made in dealing with race. Ron agrees with BOTH of you. Great strides have been made. Ron lists them in his Interludes 5 and 7 (The Good News on Race, Parts I and II). Yet we haven't achieved enough yet. Ron outlines this in his Interludes 2 and 10 (Racism in Minneapolis I and II). In this way he covers all six interpretations of the blind men describing the elephant. You can read these Interludes in his book The Minneapolis Story, Through My Eyes, soon to be in your local library. The FOURTH thing to remember is that it was a Democratic President who refused to sign into law King's birthday and it was a Republican President did. And it was a democratic governor who raised the conferate flag over the capital of South Carolina. In other words, neither side is all bad or all good, and that there is common ground on which we can all find to stand to enable us to deal better with the issues and policies of race. By the way, Ron has an interesting comment on the concept playing the race card on his web log this morning, #115. The FIFTH thing is the evaluation criteria Ron uses taken from DFL founder Nellie Stone Johnson, a method o tool that needs to be used by all: No education, no jobs, no housing. That pretty much sums it up. Policies that support these (meaning accountable outcomes) are preferable to policies that result in negative outcomes in these areas. To these three, education, jobs, housing, Ron would add a 4th and a 5th: public safety (Chapter 16 of his book) and the environment (Chapter 8 plus his bi-weekly columns). This sums up his Chapter 17 in terms of the key concerns to be measured by budgets and policies: education, jobs, housing, public safety, environment. Peter Jessen, Portland -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Michael Atherton Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 2:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Mpls] comment to (no subject) Jordan Kushner wrote: I am quite surprised to reading such narrow intolerance on this list. Where is the social need to severely punish people with minor traffic offenses? The fact is that anyone who goes to court downtown to address several such tickets is usually be given the option of doing work instead of paying fines. Perhaps the participants in the African American Men's Project sponsored events had to do a little less time. So what?! What is wrong with making life a little easier for a group that is much more harshly targetted by the criminal justice system? Minnesota and Hennepin County have among the highest racially disproporionate rates of African Americas in the system. The court system should be doing a lot more to compensate for institutional racial bias. Back when I was a poor starving student who regularly received traffic citations, I believed that traffic fines should have been assigned on a sliding scale based on income. I based this belief on the fact that well-to-do people with Cadillacs and Mercedes could blow off a $100 fine, but a $100 was equivalent to a month's rent to me. This program appears to be a sliding fee scale in a different direction. The list seems to be experience the classic white resentment for any affirmative attempts to undo racism. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure Mr. Kushner knows the law on this topic better than I, but the basis for affirmative action 40 years ago was to account for past discrimination. Now the Supreme Court tells us that we'll need another 25 years, if not longer, to account for current discrimination. I agreed 40 years ago, but I don't see the same overt racial discrimination that I did then. What I see is residual cultural inequalities. I suppose that from his vantage point in Golden Valley that Mr
[Mpls] comment to (no subject) ...pardon me
Dan Prozinski: I do think the 2 hour time required of offenders was far to short. And how was the time clock managed? Did the clock start ticking at the assigned site or did work designation, transportation, tool distribution... all eat away at our 2 hours of pay back? Did we even get two hours? BF: Some did 2 hours; some did 4. Some were to be assigned more hours and have to complete their sentence on other days. The judges determined the sentence for each individual based on his or her record. I don't have the details on how many or who was assigned to what. Since these people would be registering at 8 or 9 a.m., get through the meeting with the judge and to the site by 10:30, work til 2:30--we decided that the 4-hour worksites would provide lunch. We allowed this lunch to be on the clock. At our worksite, the group showed up at about 11:20 or so and worked until 3:30, with a short lunch that we provided. They cleaned up in parking lots, alleys and side streets off Nicollet Mall. I purposely looked this area over on Friday (before the cleanup) and again Monday. It wasn't pristine, but I could see a difference. Brian Fesler Keewaydin TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
[Mpls] comment to (no subject)
Rather than comment on the fact that your comments are racist I will hopefully encourage you to get better informed. The Star Tribune and other main stream media sources dubbed this event as one that directly benefited African-Americans, but that is not entirely the case. I attended part of the event and I saw a considerable amount of white people participating as violators also. The notion that blacks can handle their business like the normal population is asinine. I understand that you are white and angry thats fine, but I would suggest that you research you information before making broad sweeping comments indicting an entire group of people. For the record I attended as an observer. Booker T Hodges North side _ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] comment to (no subject)
The 'mainstream' media also reported that Commissioner Stenglien described the event as a prime example that it's a untrue that Black men don't care. Why no 'mainstream' announcement of the event? Had the sponsors advertised prior to the event to a more ethnically diverse audience, they may have had a bigger (more diverse) turnout. As far as the racist tag, if the people were PERIWINKLE they still got off easy. END OF CONVERSATION - END OF RACIAL THREAD. Jill Harmon Cleveland _ Help protect your PC: Get a free online virus scan at McAfee.com. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] comment to (no subject)
That's fine if you want to respond solely to the race issue. However, the question still remains - who in their right mind decided to forgive repeat offenses in exchange for *2 hours* of community service. That is a joke. If the offenders cared about getting a clean slate they would have been willing, and should have been asked, for a greater time commitment. http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/4058489.html Gary Cunningham, director of Pilot City, said the occasion also saved taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars in court costs. You know what this is? It is called enabling. Have these people learned that their behavior carries ramifications? Absolutely not. This was a tremendous disservice to the community in exchange for a one time savings. Regards, Jason Stone | Mpls --- Booker Hodges [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rather than comment on the fact that your comments are racist I will hopefully encourage you to get better informed. The Star Tribune and other main stream media sources dubbed this event as one that directly benefited African-Americans, but that is not entirely the case. I attended part of the event and I saw a considerable amount of white people participating as violators also. The notion that blacks can handle their business like the normal population is asinine. I understand that you are white and angry that�s fine, but I would suggest that you research you information before making broad sweeping comments indicting an entire group of people. For the record I attended as an observer. Booker T Hodges North side _ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] comment to (no subject)
Two Hours??? Had I seen this program coming down the pike, I would never have paid my wife's parking tickets (for some reason she has yet to learn that no parking means her as well as everyone else). She (or I in her place) would have been out paying our debt to society. I could have saved hundreds. :-) Also, in an effort to be fair to Jill Harmon, whereas (from what I'm reading here) it appears the program was indeed set-up to target minority offenders (of misdemeanor offenses), maybe her statement about being white and pissed, isn't out-of-line. What's next? Tax-breaks in exchange for picking-up trash?? What's my point? My point is that my wife is a minorty (except for her 1/8 german ancestry) and when I met her, she essentially owed several hundred in overdue misdemeanor traffic offenses. Our combined income the first 3 years we were together was LESS than $30K/year AND we paid for her tuition to finish school during that time-frame. We considered it a HUGE luxury to BLOW $50 bucks bowling at Bryant Lake Bowl (on a Saturday nite) during that time-frame and there were many days we searched for change in sofa cushions to buy mac cheese for supper. I concur, we enable citizens to continue a dysfunctional lifestyle and KEEP them from being productive members of society by allowing them to work-off debts at a highly exhorbinant hourly rate. To justify it by saying that the City, or County saved hundreds of thousands of dollars is erroneous, as in the long-run, nothing was learned and we'll continue to subsidize those that continue to choose a dysfunctional lifestyle. Dennis Plante Jordan Dennis Plante Jordan _ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] comment to (no subject)
I am quite surprised to reading such narrow intolerance on this list. Where is the social need to severely punish people with minor traffic offenses? The fact is that anyone who goes to court downtown to address several such tickets is usually be given the option of doing work instead of paying fines. Perhaps the participants in the African American Men's Project sponsored events had to do a little less time. So what?! What is wrong with making life a little easier for a group that is much more harshly targetted by the criminal justice system? Minnesota and Hennepin County have among the highest racially disproporionate rates of African Americas in the system. The court system should be doing a lot more to compensate for institutional racial bias. The list seems to be experience the classic white resentment for any affirmative attempts to undo racism. Jordan Kushner works downtown Golden Valley - Original Message - From: Jason C Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [Mpls] comment to (no subject) That's fine if you want to respond solely to the race issue. However, the question still remains - who in their right mind decided to forgive repeat offenses in exchange for *2 hours* of community service. That is a joke. If the offenders cared about getting a clean slate they would have been willing, and should have been asked, for a greater time commitment. http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/4058489.html Gary Cunningham, director of Pilot City, said the occasion also saved taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars in court costs. You know what this is? It is called enabling. Have these people learned that their behavior carries ramifications? Absolutely not. This was a tremendous disservice to the community in exchange for a one time savings. Regards, Jason Stone | Mpls --- Booker Hodges [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rather than comment on the fact that your comments are racist I will hopefully encourage you to get better informed. The Star Tribune and other main stream media sources dubbed this event as one that directly benefited African-Americans, but that is not entirely the case. I attended part of the event and I saw a considerable amount of white people participating as violators also. The notion that blacks can handle their business like the normal population is asinine. I understand that you are white and angry that�s fine, but I would suggest that you research you information before making broad sweeping comments indicting an entire group of people. For the record I attended as an observer. Booker T Hodges North side _ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] comment to (no subject)
I would like to point out that some conclusions are being drawn that are neither the facts nor were they contained in the article. First off, if you don't believe in community service for minor violations than it won't matter debating, and you should probably not even continue reading this post, but rather head over the comics section of the Strib where you can have a few laughs and not let your blood pressure rise from the thought of people getting off easy. To begin with, this was not a program exclusively for Black people nor was it simply two hours of community service. Only Jason Young, the first person mentioned, says two hours, none of the others mentioned time, and as I understand it, the range was from 2-8 hours depending upon the severity of the violation, and this was determined by a judge after they waited in line for an hour to two. Second, I don't see how anyone can call this light without knowing the actual details of the offenses and punishment. Unless Jason was the one that hit Jill's car and did the damage, it's misleading to say that all this person had to do was 2 hours and that was it. And if that was the case, Jill should be on her insurance company and their attorney for not making sure this guy was prosecuted. Did they give you a reason why? Third, the purpose of this initiative was to give people a second chance. Have them come in, perform some restorative justice service to the community, and start fresh. These were not murderers and rapists, these were people who screwed up, drove without a license, let their insurance lapse, etc. In fact, the common violation for each of the people mentioned was driving without a valid license. A minor offense. I'm not saying that no one there did worse or that this was it, but we're hardly talking about the leader of the GDs for arson. Who amongst us has not screwed up somewhere along the lines, and who amongst us has not needed a second chance to get something right or an opportunity to face something that you've been afraid to deal with. It's well and good to say that they should just go to court like everyone, but that can be pretty intimidating when you have little to no understanding of the legal system or how justice is dispensed. How many people really knew what Nolo Contendere meant before going to court? The bottom line is this was an opportunity to help some people who made a mistake and wanted to get back on track. Two of the three people talked directly about taking responsibility for themselves and how great it was to have the opportunity to move past this and never do it again. Doesn't that present a case of how giving second chances can lead to better citizens? Doesn't that present the case that it was worth it? What is the going rate for a cleaner community, a clear conscience, empowerment and better citizenry? Our criminal justice system is disproportionally filled with people of color, the poor and the uneducated. Certainly there are a lot of people who are criminals, deserve punishment and severe penalties within it. But there are also a large group who have made a mistake, and just don't know how to deal with it. And if that's the case, as a benevolent community aren't we obligated to try and create that opportunity, and even if some hardened criminals escaped their traffic ticket with community service, isn't that worth it to save the one young kid who might have had a warrant out for no insurance that would have become a hardened criminal by doing jail time? Can we not, as a community or society, show mercy and be more concerned with punishing the murderer than the litterbug? Jonathan Palmer Victory TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
Re: [Mpls] comment to (no subject)
Calling this 'program' affirmative action is almost as silly as publicly calling list members narrowly intolerant and resentful whites. You are invoking race as the single reason to clear peoples' records. I see this as problematic. I think there are many ways to better peoples' lives. None of them include waving off unacceptable behavior. Regards, Jason Stone | Mpls --- Jordan Kushner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am quite surprised to reading such narrow intolerance on this list. Where is the social need to severely punish people with minor traffic offenses? The fact is that anyone who goes to court downtown to address several such tickets is usually be given the option of doing work instead of paying fines. Perhaps the participants in the African American Men's Project sponsored events had to do a little less time. So what?! What is wrong with making life a little easier for a group that is much more harshly targetted by the criminal justice system? Minnesota and Hennepin County have among the highest racially disproporionate rates of African Americas in the system. The court system should be doing a lot more to compensate for institutional racial bias. The list seems to be experience the classic white resentment for any affirmative attempts to undo racism. Jordan Kushner works downtown Golden Valley __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
RE: [Mpls] comment to (no subject)
Jordan Kushner wrote: I am quite surprised to reading such narrow intolerance on this list. Where is the social need to severely punish people with minor traffic offenses? The fact is that anyone who goes to court downtown to address several such tickets is usually be given the option of doing work instead of paying fines. Perhaps the participants in the African American Men's Project sponsored events had to do a little less time. So what?! What is wrong with making life a little easier for a group that is much more harshly targetted by the criminal justice system? Minnesota and Hennepin County have among the highest racially disproporionate rates of African Americas in the system. The court system should be doing a lot more to compensate for institutional racial bias. Back when I was a poor starving student who regularly received traffic citations, I believed that traffic fines should have been assigned on a sliding scale based on income. I based this belief on the fact that well-to-do people with Cadillacs and Mercedes could blow off a $100 fine, but a $100 was equivalent to a month's rent to me. This program appears to be a sliding fee scale in a different direction. The list seems to be experience the classic white resentment for any affirmative attempts to undo racism. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure Mr. Kushner knows the law on this topic better than I, but the basis for affirmative action 40 years ago was to account for past discrimination. Now the Supreme Court tells us that we'll need another 25 years, if not longer, to account for current discrimination. I agreed 40 years ago, but I don't see the same overt racial discrimination that I did then. What I see is residual cultural inequalities. I suppose that from his vantage point in Golden Valley that Mr. Kushner would disagree. :-) Michael Atherton Prospect Park TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
