Vouchers Apology
At 01:40 PM 11/8/00 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I still think voucher discussion is irrelevant hereperhaps assuming it will be coming down on Minneapolis soon, heres some stuff. Dennis, I saw your apology for this post, but I still must respond. I think the voucher issue is very relevant here, this is a major plank of the Republican Educational platform at the national level. It is a subject that keeps coming back in the courts, discussions debates that get tossed around in legislatures across the country. We could end up with a Federal triangle with the Republicans in the majority. There are several cases that have come through the lower courts, it is obvious that eventually one of these voucher cases will get to the Supreme Court. When that happens, Minneapolis could very well be affected. The recent S.C. decision in Mitchell vs Helms allows school districts to lend $$ or equipment to parochial schools, it did not address the establishment clause of the 1st amendment. However decisions it let stand are somewhat contradictory in nature on this clause. Cases out of Maine, Ohio, Vermont and Arizona were left in place. One of those cases specifically excludes parochial, sectarian schools from voucher programs because it violates the establishment clause of the 1st. Yet in Arizona, a lower court decision seemed to go the opposite way. There are many other cases, I will not list all this here. I have taken my information on the Supreme Court action from a brief put together by Borkowski and Dreier, 2 attorneys with Hogan Hartson L.L.P. in Wash. entitled The 1999-2000 Term of the United States Supreme Court and It's Impact on Public Schools. Fortunately, vouchers initiatives were defeated across the nation yesterday. But I would bet that this is not the end of the issue! I am the first to characterize the majority of voucher advocates with a level invective that is not permissible on this list. Bad, bad people, willing to sacrifice a lot of kids just to knee-cap teachers unions. Her (Johnson) citing of Molinar (actually its Molnar) as a source opposing vouchers ought at least to include an ID as one of the most ferocious left-wing critics of educational criticism. (His last book, Giving Kids the Business: The Commercialization of America's Schools, is helpful but a bit hysterical.) The research on vouchers is ALL advocacy research. Period. I have to disagree with you on this point as well. Molnar was not alone in his criticism of the research. The 2 authors of the commentary did reference the report done by a private organization that also questions the findings of the research. (I did mispell Molnar though, typing wasn't my best subject in high school!) More important, voucher opponents always talk about protecting public schools but say almost nothing about the kids who attend them and are not getting much of what they deserve...no matter how hard nor wisely the good folks in the Minneapolis schools and on the school board work. I would not be bothered taking any stand if I did not firmly believe that vouchers could and would do harm to children in the public schools. Vouchers would actually help to further alienate the truly needy children from the children who come from moderate and more well off circumstances. Children who have a situation where they have a stable adult relationship somewhere in their lives are more likely to do well in school and life. (In a recent survey, I can't recall right off hand at this moment where that one is, said that many inner city children feel safer at school than they do at home!) To argue as Ms. Johnson does, that: research clearly shows that the current direction being taken here in Minneapolis is the correct direction is reasonable political rhetoric but hardly beyond dispute. Not much is beyond dispute these days. However, as a policy maker, I look to many sources before making decisions that affect children. I try to consider my decisions in a historical, theoretical and practical manner. I have been following the issue of vouchers for some time. I am sure I have not read everything, but I do try to keep up with current research and discourse on the subject. I would not claim to be an expert at this point, but I did not arrive at my opposition lightly. I know of wonderful educators in the private sector elsewhere in the U.S. who would love to work with kids who are slipping through the gaping holes in public school systems. No one is offering them the chance. If that is the intent of those teachers, then opportunities exist to do just that. They can teach in public schools if they so chose. As a matter of fact there is a teacher shortage in the public sector that is projected to worsen in the near future. The public school system as an institution needs reform, there is no doubt about that. It is an institution that is older than the Constitution itself. The model still used favors agrarian
vouchers
I still think voucher discussion is irrelevant hereHELP, DAVIDbut as long as people want to continue, perhaps assuming it will be coming down on Minneapolis soon, heres some stuff. I am the first to characterize the majority of voucher advocates with a level invective that is not permissible on this list. Bad, bad people, willing to sacrifice a lot of kids just to knee-cap teachers unions. Many of the opponents, Ms. Johnson included, do not do themselves proud in opposition, however. Her citing of Molinar (actually its Molnar) as a source opposing vouchers ought at least to include an ID as one of the most ferocious left-wing critics of educational criticism. (His last book, Giving Kids the Business: The Commercialization of America's Schools, is helpful but a bit hysterical.) The research on vouchers is ALL advocacy research. Period. More important, voucher opponents always talk about protecting public schools but say almost nothing about the kids who attend them and are not getting much of what they deserve...no matter how hard nor wisely the good folks in the Minneapolis schools and on the school board work. To argue as Ms. Johnson does, that: research clearly shows that the current direction being taken here in Minneapolis is the correct direction is reasonable political rhetoric but hardly beyond dispute. I know of wonderful educators in the private sector elsewhere in the U.S. who would love to work with kids who are slipping through the gaping holes in public school systems. No one is offering them the chance. Its hard to look negatively on vouchers in that context. As long as people defend public schools but ignore the kids those schools fail, the voucher vultures will have lots of fertile territory...and, unfortunately, some moral legitimacy. Dennis Schapiro Linden Hills
Re: More on Vouchers
PRIVATE SCHOOL using public tax dollars? PRIVATE BUSINESSES using public tax dollars? Supporters of funding private school with tax dollars are wrong plain and simple. The ever-increasing practice of corporations and other private entities stealing finances from the public is a threat to our capitalistic society. Fascism: ".the merging of state and business" This is exactly the direction this country is headed. We need to be very aware and stop it. wade russell
Re: Vouchers
Ms. Marks wrote: If my kids are in public school and I'm paying to send those families with a little more money to private school, then my kid is automatically being cheated, cause the public schools lose the money. The idea I was trying to float (and see if anyone knew otherwise) in my original post, was that a school loses the same amount of funds when a kid leaves for another public as when they leave with a voucher for the private system. If indeed that is the case, then you're saying that no classmate of your child's should ever move, graduate, or seek better academics. Connie Sheppard Ward 6 - Ventura Village YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Re: Vouchers
Wizard, I apologize for Robb. Maybe my post set him/her wrong in your genderfication. Robert Anderson Minneapolis IP Candidate(?),House 61B
Re: Vouchers
Vouchers make an enormous difference for poor kids. All private schools have scholarship programs for kids who are bright and not able to afford the tuition. A voucher program allows an expansion of the scholarships to admit a significantly larger number of kids. These schools want all the brightest kids. Vouchers also place a lot of money in the market so that other private schools can be created. For example, with vouchers, a local Muslim group may be able to create their own school. The possibilities are enormous; the program is sound. Clark Griffith 7th Ward
vouchers
I'm not sure a school vouchers discussion is appropriate, unless someone knows something about the next school board elections or some local state race that I don't know. It's been a while since any serious candidate or official from Minneapolis has proposed school vouchers. It doesn't appear to be on the tableUnless someone is planning to run on that platform plank.??? Dennis Schapiro Linden Hills
Re: Vouchers
I don't think Mr. Griffith or a lot of others, have a clear picture of how tight money is in the homes of poor families. In order for kids to take advantage of private schools, they need more than tuition. Every program, every outing, every event costs money, both for the kids to get in and for clothes and other accoutrements. With only one kid to put through school, it means a lot of rice and beans for the whole family so one kid can go to private school. If one has two or three kids, it's so far beyond impossible that it's not even funny. What a voucher does, is use tax payers' money to fund private schools. If my kids are in public school and I'm paying to send those families with a little more money to private school, then my kid is automatically being cheated, cause the public schools lose the money. Not to mention if these private schools are also parochial schools, then we get into questions of the separation of church and state. That's a really important principle we need to keep intact. No matter how you slice it, vouchers do not support the greater good for the greater many. Wizard Marks, Central Clark C. Griffith wrote: Vouchers make an enormous difference for poor kids. All private schools have scholarship programs for kids who are bright and not able to afford the tuition. A voucher program allows an expansion of the scholarships to admit a significantly larger number of kids. These schools want all the brightest kids. Vouchers also place a lot of money in the market so that other private schools can be created. For example, with vouchers, a local Muslim group may be able to create their own school. The possibilities are enormous; the program is sound. Clark Griffith 7th Ward
Re: Vouchers
Please, don't send me more messages - Original Message - From: "wizardmarks" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Multiple recipients of list" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 1:45 AM Subject: Re: Vouchers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It has long been my understanding (though I am no expert yet) that vouchers are supposed to be all or part of the amount a public school would get per student. If this is the case, then how would a voucher program "divert funds" unjustly? Let me explain: say my child goes to public school A, and I decide it's a rotten place. The next year, I enroll him/her in public school B. Due to the change in enrollment numbers, school B is now allocated the funds which were, the year before, going to school A for my kid. Would this scenario be so bad? I think that's the whole concept of vouchers in a nutshell - except that we have to monkey around more with with the process of moving funds between a public and private school. Here's a possible scenario: my kid is extremely bright, she's not getting what she needs from public school. I think she belongs at St. Paul Academy where she will not only get academics, but will rub elbows with kids from wealthy and middle class homes. With a voucher, she can't even come close to the amount it would take to not only go to the school she needs, but take part in that social life. She's also an African-American Muslim. We live on a fixed, very small income. What good is a voucher to my kid who needs not only good academics, but access? To say that vouchers will even touch the poor in any real was is mouse poop. To say that poor kids, even more than other kids, need access to the resources of a private school education, is to state the obvious. Therefore, vouchers are not meant to make different public schools accessable to a wider group of students, but to pull middle class kids from the public schools to the private ones, therefore pulling money out of the public schhol system and away from my kid and all the other kids like her. Why would I support the privileges of the middle class and wealthy against the needs of my own child? That would be way dumb. Wizard Marks Additionally, the claim that vouchers "doom poor families... with an inordinate burden of payments," is symptomatic of the elitism which so deeply permeates contemporary "liberal" thought. Would you tell me that an appliance shop down the street will doom ME in such a way? Of course not! If I can't afford a new jen-aire washing machine, I simply will not buy it. Poverty does not equal stupidity, nor irresponsibility, nor does it denote bad parenting. I believe (as an inner-city resident with an income WAY below the so-called poverty level) that vouchers would be an incredible asset to working families (especially minorities) who currently have mediocre choice for the means by which their children are educated. I personally know of many in my neighborhood that agree. Connie Sheppard Ward 6 - Ventura Village On Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:03:30 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 11/3/00 6:11:15 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The problem with vouchers go beyond the concerns raised by Stack to one simple fact: they don't work to help students. After discussing this subject with a very interesting MPS Psychologist Thursday evening, I reviewed statistics that inevitably lead me to conclude that she was rightfully concerned with the use of vouchers as they do more harm than good. In short, my research indicates that the voucher program diverts needed funds from the very schools and students who need it most. More importantly, it further dooms poor families and their students with an inordinate burden of payments that the families cannot afford. Thank you Ms. Park Avenue for such gentle persuasion and insight into this problem. And...a DFL'r with whom I agree. Strange bedfellows?? Robert Anderson Minneapolis Independence Candidate, House 61B YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
VOUCHERS
Hence comes the Charter School. I am currently working with Advantage Schools of Boston to bring a new Charter School into the Phillips and Whittier neighborhood. My purpose for working on this project is to find ways to provide as much school choice for parents in these two neighborhoods as possible. Currently, the children in Whittier are bused to 59 different schools in Minneapolis. Our neighborhood school Whittier Community School for the Arts, serves 552 children in a neighborhood of 3,300. I know Phillips numbers are probably higher. I am the past chair of the Governor's After School Enrichment program steering committee in Whittier and Phillips. The program has difficulty engaging children who are bused long distances from home to school, because their arrival time back in the neighborhood is often times too late to get them hooked into any of the programs. These kids miss out on a very important community connective piece here. Whittier has one private school for parents to choose from. The tuition in that school is very steep, however, very reasonable compared to other private schools. While they do offer scholarships, I do not believe any of them are 100% or even close to that. There are 5 tuition free alternative schools. These schools generally have pretty specific focuses beyond general education. Some other parents in the neighborhood and myself wanted to find a way to offer some alternatives to busing your child around town for an hour or two every day. An option that would be tuition free! We approached Advantage Schools of Boston because they have an incredible reputation and the financial stability to run successful charter schools. We visited an Advantage Charter School in Phoenix. We chose that school because the majority of their students are new immigrants like Whittier and Phillips would most likely be. I was overwhelmed at the atmosphere I saw. They use a specific teaching curriculum. (Direct Instruction) The test scores for children in their schools is very high. We are going through the process right now of submitting the application and beginning the long journey through to approval. Anyway, enough of the sales pitch here. If you don't like Direct Instruction then find one that suits your purpose. What I am trying to say is there is an alternative between giving people vouchers for use in private school and being forced to send them to public school. And it is free. If you read "Come Back Cities" you will see that one of the ingredients for a successful come back inner city neighborhood is school choice. It specifically talks about Charter Schools. And Russell. I know Longfellow folks would rally around this idea. Go for it. AND PLEASE - GO VOTE ON NOVEMBER 7TH!!! Barb Lickness Whittier Ward 6 __ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/
RE: Vouchers
Josep sez: Please, don't send me more messages I'm trying, folks, I'm trying!!! ..and if I ever catch the prankster who signed him up for this list... This is no way to build international understanding, is it? David Brauer List manager, Mpls-issues
Re: Vouchers
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It has long been my understanding (though I am no expert yet) that vouchers are supposed to be all or part of the amount a public school would get per student. If this is the case, then how would a voucher program "divert funds" unjustly? Let me explain: say my child goes to public school A, and I decide it's a rotten place. The next year, I enroll him/her in public school B. Due to the change in enrollment numbers, school B is now allocated the funds which were, the year before, going to school A for my kid. Would this scenario be so bad? I think that's the whole concept of vouchers in a nutshell - except that we have to monkey around more with with the process of moving funds between a public and private school. Here's a possible scenario: my kid is extremely bright, she's not getting what she needs from public school. I think she belongs at St. Paul Academy where she will not only get academics, but will rub elbows with kids from wealthy and middle class homes. With a voucher, she can't even come close to the amount it would take to not only go to the school she needs, but take part in that social life. She's also an African-American Muslim. We live on a fixed, very small income. What good is a voucher to my kid who needs not only good academics, but access? To say that vouchers will even touch the poor in any real was is mouse poop. To say that poor kids, even more than other kids, need access to the resources of a private school education, is to state the obvious. Therefore, vouchers are not meant to make different public schools accessable to a wider group of students, but to pull middle class kids from the public schools to the private ones, therefore pulling money out of the public schhol system and away from my kid and all the other kids like her. Why would I support the privileges of the middle class and wealthy against the needs of my own child? That would be way dumb. Wizard Marks Additionally, the claim that vouchers "doom poor families... with an inordinate burden of payments," is symptomatic of the elitism which so deeply permeates contemporary "liberal" thought. Would you tell me that an appliance shop down the street will doom ME in such a way? Of course not! If I can't afford a new jen-aire washing machine, I simply will not buy it. Poverty does not equal stupidity, nor irresponsibility, nor does it denote bad parenting. I believe (as an inner-city resident with an income WAY below the so-called poverty level) that vouchers would be an incredible asset to working families (especially minorities) who currently have mediocre choice for the means by which their children are educated. I personally know of many in my neighborhood that agree. Connie Sheppard Ward 6 - Ventura Village On Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:03:30 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 11/3/00 6:11:15 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The problem with vouchers go beyond the concerns raised by Stack to one simple fact: they don't work to help students. After discussing this subject with a very interesting MPS Psychologist Thursday evening, I reviewed statistics that inevitably lead me to conclude that she was rightfully concerned with the use of vouchers as they do more harm than good. In short, my research indicates that the voucher program diverts needed funds from the very schools and students who need it most. More importantly, it further dooms poor families and their students with an inordinate burden of payments that the families cannot afford. Thank you Ms. Park Avenue for such gentle persuasion and insight into this problem. And...a DFL'r with whom I agree. Strange bedfellows?? Robert Anderson Minneapolis Independence Candidate, House 61B YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Re: Vouchers
In a message dated 11/4/00 6:53:14 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: With a voucher, she can't even come close to the amount it would take to not only go to the school she needs, but take part in that social life. She's also an African-American Muslim. We live on a fixed, very small income. What good is a voucher to my kid who needs not only good academics, but access? Thank you Mr. Marks for articulating my very thought. I hope Ms Juno receives this post and will give it serious consideration. There is a problem with the belief that association brings on assimilation. In the first place, it ignores exemplary situations such as pointed out in Mr. Marks post, alluding to a belief that excellence requires particular environs. History exposes the fallacy in this belief. This belief further negates consideration of improving the quality of education for all students by asserting that only certain types of schools, in certain environs, can provide the basis for qualitative growth of skill and acumen. Secondly, there is the waning monetary base of school A in losing the child to school B, further burdening school A's ability to provide quality education to the students left behind. Following this rationale, why not take all of the students from school A over to school B ?? Again as pointed out by Mr. Marks, much more is involved in sending the child to compete in the social environment prevalent in matters of this nature (read chronicles on the effect of busing programs during the 60's and 70's). Though the child is now in an environment that will stimulate academic excellence (maybe), the weight of the social stress acquired may out weigh the benefit of academic exchange. It is time to revamp our approach to funding education and, more importantly, addressing the "silent" issues surrounding urban schools. Vouchers add to the problem more than provide any solutions. Robert Anderson Minneapolis IP Candidate, House 61B
