Re: nettime nettime as idea
Well,
Felix Stalder wrote:
[1] http://nettime.freeflux.net, http://nettime-ann.freeflux.net/
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Florian Cramer?
I think we both once met in real live as well, is organising real life events
anybodys property?
Nettime as a label,
H.
# distributed via nettime: no commercial use without permission
# nettime is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
# more info: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and info nettime-l in the msg body
# archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net
Re: nettime nettime as idea
On Jun 11, 2006, at 5:57 PM, A. G-C wrote: From this point of view, I think that Geert's provocation on closing the list to have it reborning from this new time, it is really interesting as logical activist attitude happening in real time of the mails against misunderstanding and mortification... Re borning situation of creating among the others is not a death, this is life. It was great to hear guibertc's Anglo/Francophone voice and be reminded of something that Mckensie Wark said on this list long ago (very rough quote from memory) that these days english does not belong to any one (I would add; least of all the english). This post also has something of the euphoria for a culture of continuous migration accompanied by the perpetual possibility of closure (not a death, this is life) as a measure of integrity. Other less inspiring postings on this thread have talked airily about slaughtering of sacred cows etc These avant garde (Fluxes like) rituals or 'tactics' in which ephemerality is taken as an emblem of life and authenticity are assumptions that run deep in our culture. This is particularly true of visual art and as we know from Venice Biennale to Dokumentas the visual arts were a important componant of nettime. But maybe we also have learned (eventually) that the cult of ephemerality is just not enough, that nothing slaughters 'holy cows' more voraciously than the capitalism these movements seek to subvert. The burning question has become how to move on from a kill your darlings culture without relinquishing the articulations of freedom we value (sometimes presented as part of the 'precarity' discussion). How to achieve sustainability without institutionalisation (or professionalisation). The fact that we are arguing (and fighting) 11 years after its birth shows that something in nettime (as it exists now) is worth struggling over. It suggests that nettime has found away to address the questions posed above, in fact and action as well as theory. The list has its ups and downs but is clearly very much alive and (as Felix pointed out) it has not professionalised or institutionalised. It is my belief that we owe this part of nettime's achievement is owed in large part to the current moderators. Not only to the years of quiet methodical un-glamerous work but also the courage to put up a fight when necessary! This is not the first time that closure has been argued for. In the past there are those who have argued strenuously to close the list and move on in which we would now be talking in the past tense. The moderators put up a fight and kept the platform we are now arguing on open. Whatever differences there may be the years invested in nurturing this space, with generosity and finesse, should (in my view) be too easily disrespected. I am not arguing that moderators, and their position can not be questioned. But what I am saying is tokenistic expressions of gratitude great job guys, time to move on..bye. Are shallow and disrespectful in the extreme. And more importantly fail to engage with an important aspect of the list's achievement. I would argue that any movement for radical change should be carried out in close collaboration with the moderators and should take a very different approach and tone from some of the peremptory notifications we have seen on this thread. And above all they should seek to work imaginatively with the fact that nettime has found a powerful way of addressing our most pressing issue; sustainability without institutionalisation. Respect David Garcia # distributed via nettime: no commercial use without permission # nettime is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and info nettime-l in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net
Re: nettime nettime as idea
I haven't posted to nettime in what a Slovene friend would no doubt call the age of a dog, but read it quite regularly and still consider it a kind of ongoing online cornerstone, and have to say that my vote (be it worthless for the above reasons, or not), is in kinship with David Garcia's eloquent mail today. In my experience when something's really very definitively _not_ broken -- and not broken for the good reason that some few people have made damn sure that it's in a good state of repair -- then fixing it runs the real risk of breaking it. So why do that? In other words, a proposal can be concrete without being constructive, and (as Garcia says) can also seem disrespectful and denying of achievement. Felix Stalder writes of personal abuse as being part of the job, and part of the problem in general with work, be it for free (and let's recognize how hard _that_ is in super-streamlined 21st century hypercapitalism) or for money, is that there's always a given quantity of thoughtless abuse that has to be endured, while praise is (or seems) comparatively rare. Nettime's excellent ongoing health, it has to be said, is due to its contributors but also its moderators. Cheers from wind-swept Ljubljana, where the East has moved East (but Beauty lives on). Michael Benson # distributed via nettime: no commercial use without permission # nettime is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and info nettime-l in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net
mini CPR, Was Re: nettime nettime as idea
At 10:39 AM +0200 6/12/06, David Garcia wrote: I would argue that any movement for radical change should be carried out in close collaboration with the moderators and should take a very different approach and tone from some of the peremptory notifications we have seen on this thread. And above all they should seek to work imaginatively with the fact that nettime has found a powerful way of addressing our most pressing issue; sustainability without institutionalisation. i agree that the tone of *some* of the exchanges [please, let's not homogenize] has been more self-serving than visionary and imaginative - on this thread and others prompted by the NNA - and that the pronunciations of the death of nettime too have been self-perpetuating in the way that the the death of the author ultimately has been for its author! respectfully, i would add that the moderators - present and past - have not been outside this dynamic but have directly contributed to it. i'd also contend that nettime itself is currently understood as an institution - otherwise, why question whether NNA had much to do with nettime rather than acknowledge the model of sustainability it put forth through engaging others outside the nettime proper? and why such struggle over nettime's history? - and that institutionalization is not necessarily bad - neither is it entirely avoidable; show me a tactical intervention grouping and/or a public space that is not already institutionalized in one way or another - so long as the institution is open to conflict, re-definition, re-organization and rejuvenation [by which i mean reflective of a refreshed demographic, landscape, vision]. in all recent exchanges presumably triggered by the CPR gathering [*I'd like to now propose a change of identity from NNA to CPR to signal that some of the people who attended the gathering including some of the organizers, presenters and attendees came from other milieus*], we have been focusing too much on the internal dynamics and rivalries of nettime (however we might define that interiority), but haven't given nearly as much air-time to the substance of discussions that took place, most of which were less packaged and more performative and dialogic than could be easily forwarded to the list in written text as an essay. this too was a rewarding aspect of the gathering that directly points to an inherent limitation of lists and the necessity for more real-space encounters where written communication isn't the only modus operandi. talking about sustainability, many of the presenters proposed or illustrated diverse models for sustaining critical practice through local and tactical economies (e.g. ilesansfil.org and koumbit.org), collaboration across disciplinary and geographic boundaries (e.g. ckut.ca and memefest.org), and practice/action-oriented organizing (e.g. act-mtl, viral knitting collective and Magnetic Identity Liberation Front). to me, these pointed to a qualitative move away from imagining the internet as a permanent address - prime intellectual real estate of the 80s and 90s - and toward seeing it as a tool of communication and organization - without as much utopian overtures that also were the dominant discourse of the previous moments. outside the presentations, one of the most interesting conversations i had (that went on over the course of two days and a few inevitable and chance encounters) was with roberta and alessandra about precarity movement and their work (action) that they are planning for toronto. (see Alessandra Renzi, 11 Jun 2006, Subject: nettime Fwd: [RK] No struggle against the void. Report from Barcelona.) it's interesting to observe that vocal nettimers have paid so little attention, at least on the list, to the new, immanently flexible yet radical social subject - the precariat (Kernow Craig, 6 Oct 2004, Subject: nettime Precarity and n/european Identity) since it was brought up on the list (19 posts in total since 2004, most of them one-offs), thus clearly exhibiting an institutional reticence (for example, see Keith Hart, 19 May 2006, Subject: Re: nettime Mona Cholet/ le Monde Diplolmatique: France's precarious graduate) to respond meaningfully to calls coming from a younger generation of intellectuals and critical practitioners whose ambitions are not entirely defined by their academic orientation and status but are neither anti-intellectual nor anti-academic (is anybody else sick of how simplistically these charges have been deployed and implied recently?) i agree with david garcia that sustainability is a pressing issue, but i'm not entirely sure about the nature of whatever it is we are sustaining. i repeat myself: there has been too much emphasis on personal(ized) histories and dynamics (mostly issued from a tiny, tiny minority of nettime subscribers) and not enough on the substance of what we might call critical (net) culture. at the very least, CPR (and
RE: nettime nettime as idea
Hi everyone, sorry for my previous post, it went out without being finished. What I wanted to say was that many of the themes that critical net.culture talked about 10 years ago are now mainstream. They are now playing themselves out on a scale far beyond 'net.culture', indeed, they have become culture, without any pre-fix. If that amounts to winning or losing is besides the point. In some ways, it reminds me a bit of the 1968 movements which also transformed daily life (at least in the West), but as the world around them shifted, with consequences very different from what they intended. Again, if they lost or won, is does not really matter. The world is a different place now. For most of the actors of the early net.culture, this meant either late professionalizing or early retirement. Nettime as a project did not so much professionalize as specialize. It exchanged scope for focus which has moved it a bit closer to academic culture, which is also characterized by that trade-off. But anyone who really knows academia, and the texts it produces (which I personally appreciate), will also recognize how far nettime still is from that. Its scope broader, its style sharper. Caroline Nevejan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Critiqing others for having done 'stuff', aging and moving on in life, I find rather uninteresting. I get interested when I hear what you like to do yourself. I agree, on many levels, nettime works quite well, so there is not an urgent need to change something. But, this does not mean it cannot be improved. Sure it can. But to do that, we need concrete ideas, what would you, personally, individually, like to see in nettime, and how do you put up the resources to do it? The easiest thing is to do it yourself. Silvan Zurbueck did that when he wanted an rss feed for nettime, he took the feed, pumped into a blog, and now there is an rss feed. [1] Tobias van Veen did that when he wanted to hold a nettime meeting in NA, and now we had it. Great. They had an idea, they figured out a way of doing it (by doing it themselves and roping in others to contribute). This is how things work, not by telling others what they should or should not do. The same goes for the various nettime lists in other languages. People came up with the idea of doing something, and they are doing it. Most of the people on this list are not aware of that, because these lists are in languages few of us speak. [1] http://nettime.freeflux.net, http://nettime-ann.freeflux.net/ Andreas Broeckmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]: finally, if you are unhappy with the list, be aware that 'the list', i.e. nettime, is what gets posted. of course, moderation plays a role in this. but the greater role is played by the things that get written and sent, or not. if certain discussions are not happening, it is because people are not writing their opinions. Again, I agree. Moderation is a non-issue, a red-herring. Even if the technical set-up of an email list (conceived at a time when ICT had much less social intelligence built in that it as at times today) lends itself to believing the otherwise. And it's not that Ted and I are turning away the masses who want to do his kind of work. In fact, nobody ever volunteers. N0b0dy, that's with two zeros. We occasionally ask people who are contributing interesting material to the list if they want to moderate, and the answer has always been 'Thank you for asking, but I really do not have the time.' There is one exception. Nettime-ann. Here, four people -- Mason Dixon, Tulpje Tulp, Tsila Hassine, and Hannah Davenport -- responded to an open call what to do with the announcements, and are now running this as their own project, connected to the main list by name and lose but friendly cooperation. They are doing a great, if unglamorous, job. Over the years, we experimented with various set-ups, most importantly dividing the list into two feeds, the standard moderated one and an non-moderated one, called nettime-bold. The interested in the second channel was small from the beginning, and waned entirely shortly after. The levels of spam and self-promotion seem to be tiring for everyone but the self-promoters. After we had to start manually removing posts from the nettime-bold archive, because people entirely unrelated to the list were accused -- with their names and telephone numbers -- of being pedophiles and sent us harrowing stories how this ruined their lives, because googling their names brought up these posts (google loves nettime and ranks its posts often very high up) we decided that this was not the resource we wanted to provide. When we shut-down the list, nobody seemed to notice. So, if anyone feels like moderating -- near daily work, over a long period of time -- and knows how to use an email program on a unix shell (perferably mutt),
Re: nettime nettime as idea
On 9-Jun-06, at 10:38 AM, Felix Stalder wrote: I agree, on many levels, nettime works quite well, so there is not an urgent need to change something. But, this does not mean it cannot be improved. Sure it can. But to do that, we need concrete ideas, what would you, personally, individually, like to see in nettime, and how do you put up the resources to do it? The easiest thing is to do it yourself. Silvan Zurbueck did that when he wanted an rss feed for nettime, he took the feed, pumped into a blog, and now there is an rss feed. [1] Tobias van Veen did that when he wanted to hold a nettime meeting in NA, and now we had it. Great. They had an idea, they figured out a way of doing it (by doing it themselves and roping in others to contribute). This is how things work, not by telling others what they should or should not do. The same goes for the various nettime lists in other languages. People came up with the idea of doing something, and they are doing it. Most of the people on this list are not aware of that, because these lists are in languages few of us speak. yes, nettime works well, but it works better in these occasions (I think I've seen somebody say it turns to itself). isn't this a sign that maybe not only the list, but also the way we deal with it need to be revamped? and that maybe it should not be about reflection of what has already happened but about something that could happen? individual initiatives are always welcome, but if the initiative is left to a few individuals, what would the results be? NNA was not very well attended (we were a bunch of people mainly form montreal, toronto and a few courageous from NY), the issues touched were nothing but a very small portion of what could have been achieved with the help and the support of a larger and more diverse crowd. am I too idealistic to hope for the best possible outcomes? maybe there were no questions people were asked to reply to? (and here it was probably up to everybody to put items on the table, not just to the organizers who did more than enough, shame on me that didn't think about it before). roberta # distributed via nettime: no commercial use without permission # nettime is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and info nettime-l in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net
RE: nettime nettime as idea
Awesome--a nice start would be to de-moderate the list; that is, remove the intelligentsia filters, moderation and so on, no? NRIII Nicholas Ruiz III ABD/GTA Interdisciplinary Program in the Humanities --Florida State University-- Editor, Kritikos http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~nr03/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of brian carroll Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 12:34 PM To: nettime-l@bbs.thing.net Subject: nettime nettime as idea * is it possible that 'ideas' that are now institutionalized ... # distributed via nettime: no commercial use without permission # nettime is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and info nettime-l in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net
