Re: Fwd: RE: [obc] Paving highway shoulders
On Monday, June 18, 2001 at 20:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on Re: Fwd: RE: [obc] Paving highway shoulders, saying.. What amazes me in this very long thread is that it is very facilities oriented. There has been little reference to the need for EDUCATION for ALL vehicle drivers. Kudos to those that did. I wish threads on education were as long. Mom on a Bike You make a good point. What do drivers learn in drivers' ed? How many bicycle questions are on the test? Do all drivers learn that bicyclist have equal rights duties off the freeways? Tom --- http://members.home.net/tomatrottier [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ:57647974 +1 613 291-1168 fax:+1 613 594-5412 415-400 Slater St. Ottawa ON Canada K1R 7S7 ,__o Much Madness is divinest Sense _-\_, To a discerning Eye (*)/'(*) Much Sense--the starkest Madness. -Emily Dickinson, poet (1830-1886) -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter ==^ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aVxiDo.a2i8p1 Or send an email To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email was sent to: archive@jab.org T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: Fwd: RE: [obc] Paving highway shoulders
J Barton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: I have a different definition of a bicycle lane. It's not very technical but it is technically beautiful: A cycling ghetto where glass, rocks, car parts and dead animals accumulate. How true. The sweeping action of cars and trucks on non (bike-lane) striped roads circumvents any need to advise the city to remove such debris. It's a bit more difficult to sweep away hydro poles and drain covers located in bike lanes though. Another point never mentioned is that bike lanes serve one destination only at intersections. Strange as it may seem, but cyclist traffic is like other traffic, it travels in more than one direction at intersections. Except for the rare left side bike lane (on one way sections), bike lanes never serve left turning cyclists. Bike lanes to the left of right turn lanes serve straight through cyclists only. Bike lanes to the right of lanes used by other traffic to turn right, such as on Bay Street and Island Park Drive, serve right turning cyclists only (at least they ought to). The latter are the most common, as well as, the most dangerous kind. I like to think someone realized this when they removed the bike lane between the right turn lane (to the Alexander Bridge) and the through lane (to Mackenzie) southbound on Sussex Drive in front of the National Art Gallery. The never ending discussion on the value of having cyclists separated by paint striping detracts from the real cycling safety issue of how cyclists can get themselves through intersections without getting into trouble. Bike lane and shoulder paint striping is a red herring. The hit from behind collison represents a very small number of cycle accidents, but an inordinately large part of cyclist concerns. Meanwhile real risks at intersections are rarely mentioned. (Most of these are cycling skill related and cyclists don't like to admit they are at fault.) Peter James touched on it in an earlier post when he pointed out (problems are generated) at the very locations where most accidents occur - at intersections! Let's focus on real problems not perceived ones. -- Avery Burdett Ottawa, Ontario -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter ==^ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aVxiDo.a2i8p1 Or send an email To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email was sent to: archive@jab.org T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: Fwd: RE: [obc] Paving highway shoulders
From: Avery Burdett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Another point never mentioned is that bike lanes serve one destination only at intersections. Strange as it may seem, but cyclist traffic is like other traffic, it travels in more than one direction at intersections. What specifically makes a bike lane different than a regular vehicular travel lane? -A 'regular' curb lane varies in width, anywhere from 2.5 to 5 or more metres in width, often within its length -The lane continues straight through at all intersections, sometimes it bends left or right to open up another lane. -The lane leads left turning cars right up to the intersection, where they might be tempted to turn left from that lane -Motorists must be educated to know they should be changing lanes sometime prior to the intersection to make a left turn -Regular curb lanes have numerous laneways and driveways emptying out into it. -The edges of these regular lanes accumulate lots of dirt and debris -The iron works near the curbs also tend to break up into pot holes. Now, lets imagine the regular lane shrinking to 1.5 meters... What is the difference?!?!? The never ending discussion on the value of having cyclists separated by paint striping detracts from the real cycling safety issue of how cyclists can get themselves through intersections without getting into trouble. And a regular curb lane is not separated by paint from other lanes?!?!? Bike lane and shoulder paint striping is a red herring. The hit from behind collision represents a very small number of cycle accidents, but an inordinately large part of cyclist concerns. Meanwhile real risks at intersections are rarely mentioned. (Most of these are cycling skill related and cyclists don't like to admit they are at fault.) Yes, this is the real danger - most of the time, what will hit you is in front of you.. -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter ==^ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aVxiDo.a2i8p1 Or send an email To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email was sent to: archive@jab.org T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: Fwd: RE: [obc] Paving highway shoulders
What amazes me in this very long thread is that it is very facilities oriented. There has been little reference to the need for EDUCATION for ALL vehicle drivers. Kudos to those that did. I wish threads on education were as long. Mom on a Bike Graydon Patterson wrote: From: Avery Burdett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Another point never mentioned is that bike lanes serve one destination only at intersections. Strange as it may seem, but cyclist traffic is like other traffic, it travels in more than one direction at intersections. What specifically makes a bike lane different than a regular vehicular travel lane? -A 'regular' curb lane varies in width, anywhere from 2.5 to 5 or more metres in width, often within its length -The lane continues straight through at all intersections, sometimes it bends left or right to open up another lane. -The lane leads left turning cars right up to the intersection, where they might be tempted to turn left from that lane -Motorists must be educated to know they should be changing lanes sometime prior to the intersection to make a left turn -Regular curb lanes have numerous laneways and driveways emptying out into it. -The edges of these regular lanes accumulate lots of dirt and debris -The iron works near the curbs also tend to break up into pot holes. Now, lets imagine the regular lane shrinking to 1.5 meters... What is the difference?!?!? The never ending discussion on the value of having cyclists separated by paint striping detracts from the real cycling safety issue of how cyclists can get themselves through intersections without getting into trouble. And a regular curb lane is not separated by paint from other lanes?!?!? Bike lane and shoulder paint striping is a red herring. The hit from behind collision represents a very small number of cycle accidents, but an inordinately large part of cyclist concerns. Meanwhile real risks at intersections are rarely mentioned. (Most of these are cycling skill related and cyclists don't like to admit they are at fault.) Yes, this is the real danger - most of the time, what will hit you is in front of you.. -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter ==^ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aVxiDo.a2i8p1 Or send an email To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email was sent to: archive@jab.org T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: Fwd: RE: [obc] Paving highway shoulders
Avery Burdett wrote: How true. The sweeping action of cars and trucks on non (bike-lane) striped roads circumvents any need to advise the city to remove such debris. It's a bit more difficult to sweep away hydro poles and drain covers located in bike lanes though. A agree with J Barton's view; however, I think you can find as many roads without bike lanes that have drain covers and hydro poles in the right lane as those with bike lanes. They are nevertheless safety hazards for cyclists no matter where they are. Another point never mentioned is that bike lanes serve one destination only at intersections. Strange as it may seem, but cyclist traffic is like other traffic, it travels in more than one direction at intersections. snip This is all true, and exactly why, in my opinion, motorists have to understand that just because there is a bike lane, a cyclist is not obliged to use it. Peter James touched on it in an earlier post when he pointed out (problems are generated) at the very locations where most accidents occur - at intersections! Let's focus on real problems not perceived ones. Notwithstanding whether bike lanes/paved shoulders are viewed as a solution to a real or perceived problem; they exist. Further, future road construction normally includes paved shoulders for reasons other than the safety of cylists. Like it or not, we are stuck with them. Probably the only way to get rid of them is to prove that they are actually a danger to cyclists. Bike lanes and paved shoulders are okay with me as long as motorists understand that I am not obliged to use them, especially at intersections. -Rod Plunkett -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter ==^ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aVxiDo.a2i8p1 Or send an email To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email was sent to: archive@jab.org T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: Fwd: RE: [obc] Paving highway shoulders
J Barton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: I have a different definition of a bicycle lane. It's not very technical but it is technically beautiful: A cycling ghetto where glass, rocks, car parts and dead animals accumulate. Indeed! And one might add ... and where snow is stored in the winter. -- Peter James Ottawa, Ontario -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter ==^ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aVxiDo.a2i8p1 Or send an email To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email was sent to: archive@jab.org T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
