Re: [Openfontlibrary] design service
2008/11/6 Christopher Fynn [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I also wonder whether free software licenses (designed for software) are appropriate for fonts where a font is first published in a country where the design is protected? That is an excellent point! I think the language in the GPL and Apache licenses about software idea patents are useful to think about here But I haven't seen anyone in the free software community comment on this, though. ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] design service
Le Jeu 6 novembre 2008 11:27, Dave Crossland a écrit : 2008/11/6 Christopher Fynn [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I also wonder whether free software licenses (designed for software) are appropriate for fonts where a font is first published in a country where the design is protected? That is an excellent point! I think the language in the GPL and Apache licenses about software idea patents are useful to think about here But I haven't seen anyone in the free software community comment on this, though. You must remember that free/open fonts have much higher licensing requirements than proprietary fonts (where you can always ask the legal department to replace their latest stupid clause with another stupid clause in case of problem or market change like @font-face or embedding). In free/open projects you often inherit licensing from someone else and tracing back all the right holders to effect a licensing change is usually prohibitively complex. Free/open licenses must stand the test of time and be simple enough anyone can understand them and work in international contexts. Licenses like the GPL had lots of legal work put in to achieve this. Most font-specific licenses fail miserably because they include too much font-designer-oriented complexity that introduces new failure point. -- Nicolas Mailhot ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] [OpenType] Proprietary (Off Topic)
2008/11/6 Christopher Fynn [EMAIL PROTECTED]: As far as I can make out Ascender Corp. have absolutely no commitment to Free/Libré fonts Here is my point: They made a free software font and their cash flow was positive. I did not say they were committed to free software. Obviously they are not. maybe there was no one in the free/libré font software developer community capable of making such fonts. This is not really true, there are a very small number of people in the free software community making such fonts. The Deja Vu team, and Victor Gaultney of Gentium fame, spring to mind immediately. So it is not really no one. But yes, those guys are not marketing themselves like Ascender do. Someone could do so, though - I plan to when I graduate. It seems to me this hasn't happened before because people have looked at doing free software fonts startups and talked themselves out of it. Oh no, the cashflow will be negative, this it too much work, it will never happen, no no no. Yes we can, anyone? :-) ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] [OpenType] Proprietary (Off Topic)
2008/11/6 Liam R E Quin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 10:09 +0600, Christopher Fynn wrote: [...] I'm not criticizing Ascender Corp. who do have particular expertise in making highly legible screen fonts ~ but, for the money they spent, could Red Hat not hire any one in the free/libré software community to develop these fonts? Did they even try? Or maybe there was no one in the free/libré font software developer community capable of making such fonts. I know that when we (Jim Gettys, Keith Packard and I) talked with Bitstream, leading to getting Vera made available, we also contacted a number of other font designers first. At the time we didn't find any type designers who were working on free/Libre fonts and who could do the necessary work in our price range -- one quote we got was for between $100K and $150K, for example. We knew we needed fonts that would look good on the screen, and that had a solid character set. I expect you can't answer this, but, how much _did_ Vera cost? :-) I can't speak for why Red Hat went to Ascender, but right now it's pretty hard to find someone willing to work on Free fonts and with significant experience at type design, except by going down the work-for-hire route. Maybe openfontlibrary.org will change that. I'm sure it will :-) ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] [OpenType] Proprietary (Off Topic)
2008/11/6 Nicolas Mailhot [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Le Jeu 6 novembre 2008 05:09, Christopher Fynn a écrit : You don't have to single out Red Hat, Google made pretty much the same choice with Droid (and didn't bother licensing it clearly at the same time). Red Hat's Liberation font licensing isn't clear of controversy either, though they certainly did a better job than Google. I think the reasons have little to do with free/libre designer talent. :-) It's more like - the people in charge of those decisions tend to be marketing/art people not as sensitive to free/libre questions as other people in the organisations In my experience, they can be, they just have to be sweet-talked. :-) - (to beat an old drum) with very few exceptions free/libre font creators fail massively at the distribution stage (licensing choice, distribution format, etc) and do not project a reliable image. And the people that could push free/libre solutions within organisations tend to be put out by all this mess. A plain ttf file on a random web page with no clear licence attached (or with a license buried in font metadata), no vcs, no changelog, no bug tracker, not even a version is not going to make people invest in you These are all staple best practices of software development, and that they apply directly to font development is also evidence IMO that fonts are software and it is good to treat them as such :-) - with very few exceptions free/libre font creators fail to organise themselves in teams able to make publish regular enhancements to their fonts. The lonely inspired artist may be very romantic, but to part entities with some of them hard-earned cash you need to reassure on your ability to deliver on time (you may object it's the same proprietary font size but buyers see *foundries* that will allocate manpower as needed to hit deadlines). Success attracts success and the critical mass seems not to be there yet. Though I think some of the creators of the most mature fonts (dejavu, libertine, etc) could get themselves hired if they made some concrete proposal to one of the Fedora/OpenSuse/Ubuntu community leaders during ne of the numerous FLOSS conferences they regularly attend. :-) ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] design service
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Dave Crossland wrote: I happen to have scans from a 1930s or so Soviet Russia font album. Interested? :-) If Liam isn't, please publish them on the web and add a note to the wiki at http://www.openfontlibrary.org/wiki/Font_Design#I_want_to_revive_a_historic_design Publish all 200 Mbytes on wiki? :-) Also, developing a high-quality typeface can be a lot of work; Microsoft spent over a million US dollars on Arial, I've heard. Other people report that Adobe's helvetica was digitized by kids of Adobe's founders :-) LOL Got a reference for that? :-) Not in English ;-) And the more correct version is early Adobe's Type1 fonts, not just Helvetica. Alexandre ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] design service
2008/11/6 Alexandre Prokoudine [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Dave Crossland wrote: I happen to have scans from a 1930s or so Soviet Russia font album. Interested? :-) If Liam isn't, please publish them on the web and add a note to the wiki at http://www.openfontlibrary.org/wiki/Font_Design#I_want_to_revive_a_historic_design Publish all 200 Mbytes on wiki? :-) Publish them on the web elsewhere and add a link to the wiki. If you need space, mail me offlist. Also, developing a high-quality typeface can be a lot of work; Microsoft spent over a million US dollars on Arial, I've heard. Other people report that Adobe's helvetica was digitized by kids of Adobe's founders :-) LOL Got a reference for that? :-) Not in English ;-) Я все уши :-) ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] design service
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Dave Crossland wrote: Publish all 200 Mbytes on wiki? :-) Publish them on the web elsewhere and add a link to the wiki. OK If you need space, mail me offlist. Also, developing a high-quality typeface can be a lot of work; Microsoft spent over a million US dollars on Arial, I've heard. Other people report that Adobe's helvetica was digitized by kids of Adobe's founders :-) LOL Got a reference for that? :-) Not in English ;-) Я все уши :-) http://letterhead.ru/Thinges/opyt_03.html (a series of articles on fonts localization by Yuri Gordon) На самом деле представление о том, что крупные западные шрифтовые фирмы все делают с недоступной для нас аккуратностью, далеко от реальности. В особенности это касается старых шрифтов, к которым относится Гельветика. Эти шрифты были оцифрованы неизвестно когда, неизвестно кем и неизвестно каким инструментом. Помню, что Андрей Скалдин, наш основатель, рассказывал со слов каких-то западных людей, что первые Постскриптовские шрифты оцифровывали дети основателей Адобе Системз. Причем по самым разным оригиналам, полученным с разных фирм и в разных масштабах. Наверняка Гельветика входила в их число. Потом, правда, ее неоднократно переделывали, но вряд ли меняли эти размеры. Our impression that western type foundries do everything with precision we are not likely to ever reach is far from reality. This is especially true about old fonts like Helvetica. These typefaces were digitized by god knows who and using god knows which tools. I remember that Andrey Skaldin, our [Paratype] founder, told us once (and he was told that by other people) that early Postscript typefaces were digitized by children of Adobe's founders. Besides, doing this, they used different specimens taken from different companies and in different scales. Helvetica was most likely one of them. Later, of course, it was improved many times, but I very much doubt that descenders [that vary a lot, which was discussed in a previous paragraph] were changed. That's a quote from Vladimir Efimov. In the next paragraph he says the old digitized fonts mostly keep the look of the first digitization with all their rounding errors etc. Alexandre ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] design service
2008/11/5 Liam R E Quin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I've considered adding a lot of typeface scans to www.fromoldbooks.org but not sure who would benefit. I think computer users everywhere would benefit, because those scans can be artfully refined into good revivals that are free software and thus would become used widely. Also, developing a high-quality typeface can be a lot of work; Microsoft spent over a million US dollars on Arial, I've heard. Fedora 9 cost the equivalent of $10,000 million, I've heard :-) I'd rather see some creativity at work than blind copying :-) although I'm very willing to scan some typeface samples whose copyright has expired, e.g. to help people make revivals. Even doing a fully authentic revival - a blind copy - involves a lot of creativity, I think. Cheers, Dave ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] design service
You might also have a look at the Internet Archive: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Alphabets%22 http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Illumination%20of%20books%20and%20manuscripts%22 All these books are Public Domain. Liam R E Quin a écrit : On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 20:41 -0200, minombresbond wrote: I take this opportunity to ask if you know about scaned images of public domain or olds typography catalog resources on the web, I know about raph levien's catalogs like: http://levien.com/type/atf_1912/ http://levien.com/type/atf_1923/ http://levien.com/type/atf_1934/ http://levien.com/type/atf_1941/ There is something else? Is there anything specific you are looking for? At what sort of resolution? I've considered adding a lot of typeface scans to www.fromoldbooks.org but not sure who would benefit. ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] design service
Answering to my self since I can't figure out how to create an account on the wiki... A further look to the Internet Archive brings a lot of Font specimen books while searching for http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=type%20AND%20mediatype%3Atexts%20AND%20subject%3A%22Printing%22 (Monotype, ATF, Cleveland Type Foundry, Davis Printing Company, ...) Olivier BERTEN a écrit : You might also have a look at the Internet Archive: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Alphabets%22 http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Illumination%20of%20books%20and%20manuscripts%22 All these books are Public Domain. Liam R E Quin a écrit : On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 20:41 -0200, minombresbond wrote: I take this opportunity to ask if you know about scaned images of public domain or olds typography catalog resources on the web, I know about raph levien's catalogs like: http://levien.com/type/atf_1912/ http://levien.com/type/atf_1923/ http://levien.com/type/atf_1934/ http://levien.com/type/atf_1941/ There is something else? Is there anything specific you are looking for? At what sort of resolution? I've considered adding a lot of typeface scans to www.fromoldbooks.org but not sure who would benefit. ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] design service
El Wed, 5 Nov 2008 23:33:02 + Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: 2008/11/5 minombresbond [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I take this opportunity to ask if you know about scaned images of public domain or olds typography catalog resources on the web, I don't know of other such resources, but if you find them, please contribute them to the wiki somewhere, such as http://openfontlibrary.org/wiki/Font_Design#I_want_to_revive_a_historic_design :-) http://www.fromoldbooks.org might have some typography..? I understand that the glyps of any typeface is not 'copyrightable' material in USA Well, the shapes of letters are not copyrightable in the USA, but they may be subject to a 14 year design patent. yes, but as far as I know, patenting a typeface is not a practical alternative, the patent must be aproved or not, no automated process like a copyright registration , and it is not commonly used by designers, and 'patented typeface' are few exceptional cases (is there any?) in my copy-font example I would choose a non-patented font :P and the rest of the world Here in the UK there is a 25 year copyright on them. Maybe in Germany and other places too. that registration process is like a registration of song, art, literature etc.? the copyrigth is for the artwork presented, for the glyphs like-a-form? Have the designers used the registry? is practical? can I register my bookman revival glyps like a original work? many questions! sorry saludos! ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
[Openfontlibrary] Fonts are software, so use a software license.
I also wonder whether free software licenses (designed for software) are appropriate for fonts where a font is first published in a country where the design is protected? ^ If you hope to have international recognition of your copyright, the font MUST be considered software, so a license referring to the font as software is actually very important. See: _http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/antipiracy/fonts.html_ (http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/antipiracy/fonts.html) From the above webpage: Fonts are software, too. In fact, each font is a short software program. Fonts are protected under intellectual property law and are subject to the same legal usage restrictions as other software. It is illegal to do the following: Share or copy fonts beyond what the license agreement allows Include a font copy with source files for output We'd like to make it easy for you to understand how to manage your typeface software. We hope that the following information clarifies the right way to use fonts and provides other useful information. Adobe typeface software licenses Type formats Font download Working with service bureaus Embedding typefaces Adobe typeface software licenses Adobe licenses typeface software by computer, in the same way that most application software is licensed. When you purchase a typeface license from Adobe, you are entitled to use the typeface on one computer for viewing, editing, and printing. Working with service bureaus Service bureaus are under the same licensing agreements as individuals and must own a license for viewing, editing, and printing any Adobe typeface. **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001) ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] design service
2008/11/6 Christopher Fynn [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I also wonder whether free software licenses (designed for software) are appropriate for fonts where a font is first published in a country where the design is protected? That is an excellent point! I think the language in the GPL and Apache licenses about software idea patents are useful to think about here But I haven't seen anyone in the free software community comment on this, though. If something is GPL v3 or Apache 2.0+ license, the authors give away their patent rights to the community for free. Same with the Clear BSD License. You might want to call these licenses PatentLeft licenses. **AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear0001) ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] design service
On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 15:55 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Dave Crossland wrote: I happen to have scans from a 1930s or so Soviet Russia font album. Interested? :-) If Liam isn't, please publish them on the web and add a note to the wiki at http://www.openfontlibrary.org/wiki/Font_Design#I_want_to_revive_a_historic_design Publish all 200 Mbytes on wiki? :-) I'm already hosting gigabytes of images on www.fromoldbooks.org... Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] design service
El Thu, 06 Nov 2008 15:27:26 +0100 Olivier BERTEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: You might also have a look at the Internet Archive: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Alphabets%22 http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Illumination%20of%20books%20and%20manuscripts%22 All these books are Public Domain. nice resources! Liam R E Quin a écrit : On Wed, 2008-11-05 at 20:41 -0200, minombresbond wrote: I take this opportunity to ask if you know about scaned images of public domain or olds typography catalog resources on the web, I know about raph levien's catalogs like: http://levien.com/type/atf_1912/ http://levien.com/type/atf_1923/ http://levien.com/type/atf_1934/ http://levien.com/type/atf_1941/ There is something else? Is there anything specific you are looking for? At what sort of resolution? I've considered adding a lot of typeface scans to www.fromoldbooks.org but not sure who would benefit. ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] Fonts are software, so use a software license.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also wonder whether free software licenses (designed for software) are appropriate for fonts where a font is first published in a country where the design is protected? ^ If you hope to have international recognition of your copyright, the font MUST be considered software, so a license referring to the font as software is actually very important. Why? Most developed countries including the US offer copyright protection to foreign works under under the Berne Convention since 1989 and the Universal Copyright Convention (UCC) since 1955. The works of an author who is a national or resident of a country that is a member of these treaties, works first published in a member country or published within 30 days of first publication in a Berne Union country may claim protection under the treaties. So if something is copyright in a country where it was first published the US should recognize that too if that country is also a member of the Berne Convention. See: _http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/antipiracy/fonts.html_ (http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/antipiracy/fonts.html) It may be that in America fonts can only be protected as software but in the UK they are also protected as artistic works. This may not be the case in the US where the argument has been that fonts should be considered utilitarian not artistic. I don't know about the US but if you publish a font in the UK, or another European country, I think you may want something more than a license designed for software. This should also apply to licenses for free/open source fonts. In order to qualify for protection as an artistic work in the UK, there is a minimum level of originality required, and some degree of skill and labour must be expended by the author. If eligible, might not one want to first publish a font outside the US in a country where the font is protected as an artistic work and as software? - Chris ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
