Re: [Openfontlibrary] On the license of Adobe Utopia font
Sounds good...easiest solution, make new fonts released into PD or with OFL license ;) Jon Personally I think it it would be useful to have a series of License choices available for fonts - like CC has for other artistic works. Just like other creative people there are type designers who may be happy to have copies of some of their fonts distributed freely - but they may feel they wish to e.g. protect the integrity of their design and place some restrictions on modifications or derivatives. - Chris ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] On the license of Adobe Utopia font
Dear all, Thanks a lot for this interesting thread! Thomas Phinney, product Manager Fonts @ Adobe left this comment on our blogpost on the possible re-licensing of Utopia: Well, gosh, just drop me an email and we can talk. :) I’m open to the possibility of using OFL on the four basic faces of Utopia, as long as The Lawyers are okay with it. Cheers, T Thomas Phinney Product Manager Fonts Global Typography Adobe Systems http://ospublish.constantvzw.org/?p=504 For typographers designers it would be really exciting if Utopia (and others!) would be available as source -- but to be able to make a derivative work, it's license needs to allow more than just the freedom to add glyphs. We are not as informed about legal and technical consequenses as you all are :-) and it looks like the trouble will be in the 'as long as the lawyers are ok with it'. So... we wondered whether one of you want to take this on? Or are you already in contact with these people? Or can you help us with what we exactly should ask for? all the best from Brussels, Femke (OSP) ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] On the license of Adobe Utopia font
2008/5/21 Femke Snelting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Thomas Phinney, product Manager Fonts @ Adobe left this comment on our blogpost on the possible re-licensing of Utopia: I'm open to the possibility of using OFL on the four basic faces of Utopia, as long as The Lawyers are okay with it. http://ospublish.constantvzw.org/?p=504 Wow! That's great news! :-) For typographers designers it would be really exciting if Utopia (and others!) would be available as source The font source must be some ancient Fontographer files... but to be able to make a derivative work, it's license needs to allow more than just the freedom to add glyphs. That's not what I understood by Karl's message and the license. The license says, Adobe grants [the public] a license ... to use, reproduce, display and distribute the Software for any purpose and without fee provided that the following copyright notice appears in all whole and partial copies of the Software ... Copyright 1989, 1991 Adobe Systems Incorporated. All rights reserved. Adobe also grants [the public] a license to modify the Software for any purpose and redistribute such modifications ... provided that the modified Software shall not use the font name(s) or trademark(s), in whole or in part Karl is saying that you can add new original parts to Utopia and use whatever license you like for those parts - like the OFL - but you have to include the normal two bits of copyright stuff from Adobe - the copyright notice and the copyright license - when you redistribute the new combined work. We are not as informed about legal and technical consequenses as you all are :-) and it looks like the trouble will be in the 'as long as the lawyers are ok with it'. So... we wondered whether one of you want to take this on? I can if you don't want to, but I think it would be fine for you to do it :-) Or are you already in contact with these people? I've met him a few times and he's a wonderfully friendly and nice guy :-) You might also want to privately ask Victor Gaultney if he'd like to be involved in any discussions with Adobe, as the primary author of the SIL OFL and someone who also knows Tom already. Or can you help us with what we exactly should ask for? I suggest you just email Tom privately, as he suggests, and ask what you can do to help get Utopia republished with SIL OFL, and if there's any chance the Fontographer sources could be OFL'd too. I'm sure everyone here is familiar with Jono Bacon, Canonical's Community Manager. Tom is kind of the Adobe equivalent, for the typography community - he attends a lot of typography conferences on company time, presenting a range of topics from Adobe corporate stuff to really exciting typographic history tales. He was in the news a while back for being an expert witness in a forgery case - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents_authenticity_issues#Proportional_fonts - and actively posts on typophile.com forums. He's the only person I've ever met who says he never, ever, not once, does copyright infringement - not music, films, books, programs, nada - who I could totally believe. He has my utmost respect for being principled about things, although obviously we disagree about this issue. So, I think if you are not too busy, it would be great for OSP to take this on, since you are a design group and it would be good for Adobe to interact with designers who are using free software, since I doubt they have much experience of that yet. If you are to busy though, I'll be happy to take this forward :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] On the license of Adobe Utopia font
2008/5/20 Jon Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED]: * then, group outlined in the license adobe provides, TEX user group, would need to make another license, preferably OFL which respects adobe's first license IANAL but AIUI sublicense is a legal term that means license to someone else under these terms - not re-license with different terms which is what it would obviously mean to you and me as non-lawyers :-) -- Regards, Dave I support www.gnuherds.org - democratic free software jobs ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] On the license of Adobe Utopia font
Can someone introduce me to him as well? I just arrived back in SF and have a meeting at Adobe on 30th and live 1.5 blocks from their office... Jon On Wed, 2008-05-21 at 19:06 -0500, Karl Berry wrote: Thomas Phinney, product Manager Fonts @ Adobe left this comment on our blogpost on the possible re-licensing of Utopia: Well, gosh, just drop me an email and we can talk. :) Very cool. Phinney was one of the people in the loop on the whole previous discussion, as I recall. I don't mind writing him, assuming I can dig up his email somewhere. For typographers designers it would be really exciting if Utopia (and others!) would be available as source -- I've never seen anything but the pfb's. I doubt you'd lose much by starting with them instead of sitting around waiting for lawyers to do their thing. but to be able to make a derivative work, it's license needs to allow more than just the freedom to add glyphs. The existing LICENSE-utopia absolutely *does* allow much more freedom than merely adding glyphs. It allows you do anything you want, basically, except call your modified version Utopia. Read it. karl ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA + Guangzhou + Beijing GLOBAL +1.415.830.3884 CHINA +86.1.360.282.8624 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org IM/skype: kidproto Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] On the license of Adobe Utopia font
George Williams wrote: On Wed, 2008-05-21 at 13:02, Christopher Fynn wrote: In the case of Type 1 Fonts like Adobe Utopia what additional information (not in the Type 1 Font file metrics file) would a Fontographer source file provide anyway? Well, kerning and ligatures live in the afm. But I presume that would also be available. AFM is what I meant by metrics file. So what does a fog file provide that the pfb/afm combination doesn't? 1) guidelines (to establish xheight, capheight, etc.) Shouldn't the AFM file contain the values for Ascender, Descender, XHeight CapHeight? In the case of Latin fonts these values are usually pretty easy to derive anyway. Stems and alignment zones are also in the font files 2) background images (and splines) (used for tracing outlines) *If* they traced the outlines in Fontographer. 3) diagonal hints (useless for PostScript fonts) Since Adobe were making only PostScript fonts - I doubt if there would be diagonal hints. The fog file can also contain bitmaps, but I presume that if those existed there would be bdf files for them. There is a good chance Adobe developed Utopia using something other than Fontographer anyway. I can't think of anything else off the top of my head. The point was that in the case of Type 1 fonts there may be little or no useful extra information contained in the Fontographer source file. Anyway the font files themselves are probably readable by many more applications that the Fontographer files. Something like the designers original sketches for the font might be far more useful to anyone wanting to extend a font like Utopia ... - Chris ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] On the license of Adobe Utopia font
On 20 мая 2008, Jon Phillips wrote: * the font would need to be renamed, or if same name kept, or similar name, authorization needed by Adobe What do you mean as similar name? Adobe prohibited the use of Utopia or Adobe. -- Andrey V. Panov panov /@/ canopus.iacp.dvo.ru ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] On the license of Adobe Utopia font
On Wed, 2008-05-21 at 16:13 +1100, Andrey V. Panov wrote: On 20 мая 2008, Jon Phillips wrote: * the font would need to be renamed, or if same name kept, or similar name, authorization needed by Adobe What do you mean as similar name? Adobe prohibited the use of Utopia or Adobe. Using some part of the above names and/or something similar such as: AdobeFont, Utopia2, etc ;) Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA + Guangzhou + Beijing GLOBAL +1.415.830.3884 CHINA +86.1.360.282.8624 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org IM/skype: kidproto Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] On the license of Adobe Utopia font
Hats off to you on the work on this first! On Tue, 2008-05-20 at 18:22 -0500, Karl Berry wrote: * the font would need to be modified (reasonably) Well, that's the only time the whole question comes up. * the font would need to be renamed, or if same name kept, or similar name, authorization needed by Adobe I agree. * then, group outlined in the license adobe provides, TEX user group, No, TUG has no rights to change any licensing -- we (er, I am the president of TUG) only have the right to sublicense under the agreement Adobe made with us, which we did. The agreement explicitly says that Adobe retains copyright ownership. See lines 51ff of LICENSE-utopia.txt. So if you want to get the original license changed to the OFL, it's Adobe you have to get to do that. Good luck. would need to make another license, preferably OFL which respects adobe's first license I fail to see why you say that. As I explained, I personally believe anyone can make a new font based on Utopia where the original parts are under the Utopia license and the new parts are under the OFL. If you want to go that way. (I wouldn't, myself.) Which way would you go then? Sound like a plan? Anyone interested in updating/rescuing this font? I don't think the term rescue is appropriate. Terry O'Donnell of Adobe, others at Adobe, and I spent a whole lot of time truly rescuing Utopia from its *previous* state, where the redistribution of modified versions was in an ambiguous state, and various free software pseudo-lawyers (no one else) insisted on the worst possible interpretation. IANAL and hopefully try to stay away from armchair lawyer, as I apparently have done in this thread ;) Regardless, great work on this...I dunno, you might be amazed what Adobe would do to relicense Utopia ;) Now the fonts are clearly free. My advice is, enjoy them. karl Sounds good...easiest solution, make new fonts released into PD or with OFL license ;) Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA + Guangzhou + Beijing GLOBAL +1.415.830.3884 CHINA +86.1.360.282.8624 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org IM/skype: kidproto Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] On the license of Adobe Utopia font
As far as I can understand the Adobe Utopia font (http://tug.org/fonts/utopia ) could be modified and used for designing, for example, OFL font. Could anybody clarify me the terms of this license? Well, I'm the one who pushed Adobe into updating the license to make the modification status clear(er), but I'm not sure how much clarification I can offer. I haven't deeply thought about every word of every clause, but I think the Utopia license is compatible with the OFL; at least nothing jumps out at me as being incompatible. So I guess you could modify Utopia and distribute the result as OFL (your parts) + Utopia (original parts). As long as you change all the names to not use the word Utopia or Adobe. I also guess you should say Portions of these fonts are: Copyright 1989, 1991 Adobe ... ... Used under license. as stated in LICENSE-utopia.txt. Another (simpler) option is just to keep the whole thing under the Utopia license. karl ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
Re: [Openfontlibrary] On the license of Adobe Utopia font
Cool project for someone to take on modd'ing this thing and re-licensing it :) My reading of the license is that any derivative: * the font would need to be modified (reasonably) * the font would need to be renamed, or if same name kept, or similar name, authorization needed by Adobe * then, group outlined in the license adobe provides, TEX user group, would need to make another license, preferably OFL which respects adobe's first license Sound like a plan? Anyone interested in updating/rescuing this font? Jon On Mon, 2008-05-19 at 20:02 -0500, Karl Berry wrote: As far as I can understand the Adobe Utopia font (http://tug.org/fonts/utopia ) could be modified and used for designing, for example, OFL font. Could anybody clarify me the terms of this license? Well, I'm the one who pushed Adobe into updating the license to make the modification status clear(er), but I'm not sure how much clarification I can offer. I haven't deeply thought about every word of every clause, but I think the Utopia license is compatible with the OFL; at least nothing jumps out at me as being incompatible. So I guess you could modify Utopia and distribute the result as OFL (your parts) + Utopia (original parts). As long as you change all the names to not use the word Utopia or Adobe. I also guess you should say Portions of these fonts are: Copyright 1989, 1991 Adobe ... ... Used under license. as stated in LICENSE-utopia.txt. Another (simpler) option is just to keep the whole thing under the Utopia license. karl ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA + Guangzhou + Beijing GLOBAL +1.415.830.3884 CHINA +86.1.360.282.8624 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org IM/skype: kidproto Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
[Openfontlibrary] On the license of Adobe Utopia font
As far as I can understand the Adobe Utopia font (http://tug.org/fonts/utopia ) could be modified and used for designing, for example, OFL font. Could anybody clarify me the terms of this license? -- Andrey V. Panov http://canopus.iacp.dvo.ru/~panov/ ___ Openfontlibrary mailing list Openfontlibrary@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/openfontlibrary
