Re: Why are you here? (was Re: Hello list)
Dear Brian, Your reappearance here, long after the list became functionally useless because new discussants couldn't succeed in joining, reminds me of my great-grandfather. He went off to fight for the Union in the American civil war, leaving behind a general store, a wife, and children. They didn't hear from him for years. None of those touching letters that have been published recently were his. The war ended; nothing was heard. Eventually the statutory limit passed; his wife had him declared dead, and remarried. Then he showed up, surprised that things were not just as he'd left them. His wife had a thing to two to say to him, then gave him a grubstake and sent him off. He went to Arkansas, married again, and became my great-grandfather. But he did not get his old life back. I don't know whether there is any life left in this list. It's worth, I think, finding out. The ONLY reason the yahoo openhealth list exists is because this one wasn't accepting new people. Trademarkianism has nothing to do with it. If you want there to be life in this list, you might start by simply inviting everyone on the yahoo list back to this one. Having a fight, even a desultory diplomatic one, about the use the the trademark is probably not the most effective way to begin this. Recognizing that the yahoo list is merely a functioning substitute for the real thing, and ensuring the continuation of the discussion, free of ads and yahoo nonsense, would, in my own view, be welcome. Best wishes, Dan Johnson On Mon, 2006-03-13 at 04:01 +0100, Brian Bray wrote: Tim Churches a écrit : Hmmm, does Minoru plan to assert its trade mark against the Openhealth list on Yahoo (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ )? I'm not expecting that I'll have to. It depends on the the other list and my decisions over the next few weeks. The way I see it, there are two possibilities for the motivations of the creators of the other list: 1) It really is a question of the technical capabilities of the list and the lack of support. In this case, the folks running the yahoo list will have no problem changing the name to avoid confusion. The two lists will either merge at some point or specialize to meet different needs of the community. The yahoo list has critical mass, so a name change is unlikely to cause its members to leave.
Re: Why are you here? (was Re: Hello list)
Brian Bray wrote: Tim Churches a écrit : Hmmm, does Minoru plan to assert its trade mark against the Openhealth list on Yahoo (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ )? I'm not expecting that I'll have to. It depends on the the other list and my decisions over the next few weeks. The way I see it, there are two possibilities for the motivations of the creators of the other list: Really, you can see only two possibilities? I find your first one to have some probability of contributing to the rise of the new list, but your second possibility, in my opinion has a very low probability of contributing to the rise of the new list. The highest probability of why a new list exists, I believe, is that this list ceased to have any significant value to the list members. 1) It really is a question of the technical capabilities of the list and the lack of support. ... 2) The motivation is to profit from the goodwill that Minoru has in the community on an ongoing basis. It is up to you. Why are you here? Because at one time it was a good place to be and then it ceased to have value. Since it cost virtually nothing to stay the lack of value was not sufficient motivation to attempt to leave. I did notice that others spent some effort trying to leave to no avail, so why bother? And to further my argument, this would not be the first list I have belonged to that just petered out without me having to do a thing about it.
Why are you here? (was Re: Hello list)
Tim Churches a écrit : Hmmm, does Minoru plan to assert its trade mark against the Openhealth list on Yahoo (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ )? I'm not expecting that I'll have to. It depends on the the other list and my decisions over the next few weeks. The way I see it, there are two possibilities for the motivations of the creators of the other list: 1) It really is a question of the technical capabilities of the list and the lack of support. In this case, the folks running the yahoo list will have no problem changing the name to avoid confusion. The two lists will either merge at some point or specialize to meet different needs of the community. The yahoo list has critical mass, so a name change is unlikely to cause its members to leave. 2) The motivation is to profit from the goodwill that Minoru has in the community on an ongoing basis. In this case, the folks running the yahoo list will resist changing the name and it will be necessary to assert the trademark to protect Minoru's interests and reputation. But, as I said, I'm not expecting this to be necessary. I believe that we can come to some understanding that is best for everyone. In any event, the needs of the community have substantially changed since the Openhealth list was created. When we started, there were just a small number of open source projects. They were duplicating each others work, the creators had never met or communicated, and the level of competition was preventing collaboration to move ahead more quickly. Thanks to you and the other members of the Openhealth list, there is much more understanding and appreciation of the merits of different approaches to solve different problems. There is also much more collaboration as projects exchange not only ideas, but modules (such as FreeB for example). Ongoing communication between projects is still important, but there are now many mechanisms and places where that happens. The question I asked in my first reponse to your note Why are you here? This is a serious question we should address to determine the future of the list and whether it still has a value in the community. The increasing number of open source healthcare projects creates a need to objective comparative reviews and critiques to help refine their work. There is also a need for greater communication and colllaboration between physicians and engineers one the one hand, and open source developers and medical informatics research on the other. Can this list help meet these needs? -- In terms of the technical capabilities of the list, the reason for the long delay in upgrading the list is that my internet service provider was not ready. I considered hosting the list on an open source product or moving it to a free service in the past, but both these options had drawbacks. It is just a fact of life that Minoru's sites are subject to attack. My ISPs report that our sites are subject to more security incidents than other sites they host, including e-commerce sites. I have hosted other lists directly, and came to the conclusion that the Openhealth list absolutely needs stronger security support than we could ensure in-house. For example, getting an e-mail saying you have more than 10,000 administrative requests. The current system, while crude and out of date, enables us to have a quiet conversation without hurculean effort. As for hosting the list on a free service, these services are not charities. I notice that the project sites for many open source projects now have advertising for directly competing proprietary products. The archive for the openhealth list suffers from the same blight. Many of the the lurkers on the openhealth list are doctors, a highly prized market segment for advertisers. Another big segment is commercial and non-profit open source enterprises who cannot and should not permit their work to used as advertising media for their competitors. Just this month, my ISP is rolling out a better mailing list service which they will support and protect, so it now possible to provide a friendlier interface without the problems mentioned above. It is up to you. Why are you here? -Brian
Re: Hello list
Right you are about Marvin. There are a million lists on the Internet and a lot of them have signs of life, but there's only one Openhealth[tm] list. Why are you here? -Brian Tim Churches a écrit : Brian Bray wrote: To quote Marvin the paranoid android (Red Dwarf) Life... don't talk to me about life. Marvin was the `droid in the late and much lamented Douglas Adams' The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Kryten was the `noid on Red Dwarf - sad geezers like me can read more about Kryten at http://www.sadgeezer.com/RedDwarf/kryten.htm Unfortunately, the floor show has already finished at The Restaurant at the End of the Universe (also known as openhealth-list@minoru-development.com ). However, if you engage your Infinite Improbability Drive, you may find signs of life over on openhealth@yahoogroups.com Tim C
Re: Question about OIO (was Hello list)
On 3/10/06, Brian Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Denny and Aldric for the warm greeting. There have certainly been some interesting discussions while I was gone. (I'm just up to the end of 2003). Hi Brian, Welcome back! I have a question for Andrew Ho. In the discussion about Vista/OIO complementarity, you discussed the concept that OIO let's users safely customize forms. Each form has an unique form name and version number within each OIO server instance: For example, Psychiatric Progress Note version 1. Customizing a form could mean 1) creating a new version using the same form name, or 2) copying some of the question items into a new form with a different form name, or 3) changing an existing form version, which requires safe migration of existing data. I'm curious how this is done, particularly related to the completeness and semantics of data elements. Completeness can never be assured without significantly restricting customizability. For example, deleting the Gender question from an existing form. Semantic connections between forms (and versions) require translators that are separately defined as necessary. I know I should RTFM, but a discussion might be more interesting...especially if some others with flexible systems can chime in. Sounds good! Best regards, Andrew -- Andrew P. Ho, M.D. OIO: Open Infrastructure for Outcomes www.TxOutcome.Org
Re: Hello list
Brian Bray wrote: Right you are about Marvin. There are a million lists on the Internet and a lot of them have signs of life, but there's only one Openhealth[tm] list. Hmmm, does Minoru plan to assert its trade mark against the Openhealth list on Yahoo (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth/ )? Why are you here? I tried to unsubscribe from openhealth-list@minoru-development.com but the administrative interface to the list has been broken for several years now - or it was last time I tried it. Is it fixed now? Tim C Tim Churches a écrit : Brian Bray wrote: To quote Marvin the paranoid android (Red Dwarf) Life... don't talk to me about life. Marvin was the `droid in the late and much lamented Douglas Adams' The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Kryten was the `noid on Red Dwarf - sad geezers like me can read more about Kryten at http://www.sadgeezer.com/RedDwarf/kryten.htm Unfortunately, the floor show has already finished at The Restaurant at the End of the Universe (also known as openhealth-list@minoru-development.com ). However, if you engage your Infinite Improbability Drive, you may find signs of life over on openhealth@yahoogroups.com Tim C
Re: Question about OIO (was Hello list)
Andrew Ho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Customizability is the main strength of OIO. It's main weakness is its installation! :-) The problem is the psycopgDA adaptor and the permissions having to be changed to postgres user. Can this compromise security? Zope 3 works with python 2.4 and the psycopgDA 2.x version. This version of psycopgDA is more pythonish and the installation is far more transparent as a result. One day if OIO can migrate to zope 3 as a zxcm file, this may solve the problem! Nandalal On 3/10/06, Brian Bray wrote: Thanks Denny and Aldric for the warm greeting. There have certainly been some interesting discussions while I was gone. (I'm just up to the end of 2003).Hi Brian,Welcome back! I hav e a question for Andrew Ho. In the discussion about Vista/OIO complementarity, you discussed the concept that OIO let's users safely customize forms.Each form has an unique form name and version number within each OIOserver instance:For example, "Psychiatric Progress Note version 1". Customizing a formcould mean 1) creating a new version using the same form name, or 2)copying some of the question items into a new form with a differentform name, or 3) changing an existing form version, which requiressafe migration of existing data. I'm curious how this is done, particularly related to the completeness and semantics of data elements.Completeness can never be assured without significantly restrictingcustomizability. For example, deleting the "Gender" question from anexisting form.Semantic connections between forms (and versions) require"translators" that are separately defined as necessary. I know I should RTFM, but a discussion might be more interesting...especially if some others with flexible systems can chime in.Sounds good!Best regards,Andrew--Andrew P. Ho, M.D.OIO: Open Infrastructure for Outcomeswww.TxOutcome.Org Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
Re: Question about OIO (was Hello list)
Andrew Ho a écrit : Completeness can never be assured without significantly restricting customizability. For example, deleting the Gender question from an existing form. In certain contexts, some limits on customizability are needed for safety reasons. Take a case worker with limited screen size in the field -- there should be no customization that eliminates or reduces to illegibility an alert field. More suble is the question of Work flow vs thought flow (I'm only guessing what that means, but it sounds cool) and whether customizability has a medical impact. Since posing the question, I came across: http://journalsonline.tandf.co.uk/(dgdmykz4q25ielnzs4drx1q1)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parentbackto=issue,3,6;journal,1,27;linkingpublicationresults,1:102479,1 -Brian
How to (was Hello list)
There has never been an administrative interface. Just send a blank message with unsubscribe as a subject to either the list or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tim Churches a écrit : I tried to unsubscribe from openhealth-list@minoru-development.com but the administrative interface to the list has been broken for several years now - or it was last time I tried it. Is it fixed now? Tim C
Re: How to (was Hello list)
Brian Bray wrote: There has never been an administrative interface. Just send a blank message with unsubscribe as a subject to either the list or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes, that's the administrative interface to which I was referring - you know, it is like a command line interface, but via email, with a set of define administrative commands. That's definitely an interface. Anyway, it wasn't working, but I'll try again now. If it works, so long and thanks for all the fish! Tim C Tim Churches a écrit : I tried to unsubscribe from openhealth-list@minoru-development.com but the administrative interface to the list has been broken for several years now - or it was last time I tried it. Is it fixed now? Tim C
Re: Hello list
Welcome back Brian! Sounds like you are doing a treasure hunt! Are you still based in Paris? David Brian Bray wrote: To quote Marvin the paranoid android (Red Dwarf) Life... don't talk to me about life. I'm catching up on my e-mail. Only 3500 more to go! -Brian Ignacio Valdes a écrit : He LIVES! -- IV On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:19:09 +0100 Brian Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all. -Brian -- David H Chan, MD, CCFP, MSc, FCFP Associate Professor Department of Family Medicine McMaster University http://oscarmcmaster.org
Re: Hello list
Thanks David, I'm in Vancouver for the moment and I'm planning to move back here, but it really depends on where my next project is. -Brian Dr. David Chan a écrit : Welcome back Brian! Sounds like you are doing a treasure hunt! Are you still based in Paris? David
Re: Hello list
No Message Collected
Re: Hello list
Hi Brain, I'm still out here. Busy with work and life, and looking for another job. Wendy, What is your situation, what resources do you have, how many students etc? Alric Hi all. -Brian --
Re: Hello list
Never mind the part for Wnedy. Thats for another list. Alric Hi Brain, I'm still out here. Busy with work and life, and looking for another job. Wendy, What is your situation, what resources do you have, how many students etc? Alric Hi all. -Brian -- --
Re: Hello list
He LIVES! -- IV On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:19:09 +0100 Brian Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all. -Brian
Re: Hello list
On 10 Mar, 2006, at 9:19, Brian Bray wrote: Hi all. -Brian Welcome back, Brian
Re: Hello list
To quote Marvin the paranoid android (Red Dwarf) Life... don't talk to me about life. I'm catching up on my e-mail. Only 3500 more to go! -Brian Ignacio Valdes a écrit : He LIVES! -- IV On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:19:09 +0100 Brian Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all. -Brian
Question about OIO (was Hello list)
Thanks Denny and Aldric for the warm greeting. There have certainly been some interesting discussions while I was gone. (I'm just up to the end of 2003). I have a question for Andrew Ho. In the discussion about Vista/OIO complementarity, you discussed the concept that OIO let's users safely customize forms. I'm curious how this is done, particularly related to the completeness and semantics of data elements. I know I should RTFM, but a discussion might be more interesting...especially if some others with flexible systems can chime in. Thanks. -Brian
Hello list
Hi all. -Brian
