Re: [osol-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
P.S. - As far as the existing distros being harmed. I would judge whether or not they are being harmed by talking to the developers responsible for the various distros. We have already had the chief developer behind MartUX express outrage, and announce his intention to leave the community over this naming issue, and it seems like Shillix's main developer is also very agitated by this unilateral move by Sun. (As he thought Shillix would be the leading candidate for a community distro). I think one of the other issues I have with the current situation is that we don't seem to be doing enough to facilitate the other distro's existence at opensolaris.org. Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
If the project team were content to be known as Indiana or some other name that does not imply the community's exclusive endorsement without our consent, the entire controversy would evaporate very quickly. +1 And while rapid iteration and prototyping is fine for an Indiana distribution, it's NOT fine for a reference distribution. Reference distribution implies ARC[1] and non controversial. An ISV cannot build anything on unreviewed prototypes then ship only to find that the prototype is changed in an incompatible manner. Casper [1] Not necessarily finished but certainly started and sticking points clear. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Project Indiana milestone reached!
cool. cong. Glynn Foster wrote: I'm very pleased to announce that the first milestone of Project Indiana is now available - called OpenSolaris Developer Preview. It's available for download at http://dlc.sun.com/osol/indiana/downloads/current/in-preview.iso This is an x86-based LiveCD install image, containing some new and emerging OpenSolaris technologies. This may result in instabilities that lead to system panics or data corruption. Among the features contained in this release are o Single CD download, with LiveCD 'try before you install' capabilities o Caiman installer, with significantly improved installation experience o ZFS as the default filesystem o Image packaging system, with capabilities to pull packages from network repositories o GNU utilities in the default $PATH o bash as the default shell o GNOME 2.20 desktop environment For more details about the system requirements along with some basic user documentation, see - http://opensolaris.org/os/project/indiana/resources/getit/ and the release notes http://opensolaris.org/os/project/indiana/resources/rn/ This milestone preview shows the results of many months of engineering work through the collaboration of several projects on opensolaris.org. I would like to thank to those people who have been involved, and offer my congratulations for reaching this successful milestone. Report Bugs === We are very interested in hearing feedback about your experiences with this release. In particular, if you have issues installing on your hardware we would love to know. If you would like to provide feedback, see our bug reporting page for details on how to do that - http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/indiana/resources/reporting_bugs/ About Project Indiana = Project Indiana is working towards creating a binary distribution of an operating system built out of the OpenSolaris source code. The distribution is a point of integration for several current projects on OpenSolaris.org, including those to make the installation experience easier, to modernize the look and feel of OpenSolaris on the desktop, and to introduce a network-based package management system into Solaris. http://www.opensolaris.org/os/project/indiana/ Rock on! Glynn On behalf of Project Indiana Team ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
What we (and I assume, other 'commercial' developers) care about is the binary compatibility, stability of the kernel API, userland interface - libc, basic commands (shell, cp/rm/etc), and of course the packaging mechanism, to name a few. Kernel/Userland compatibility within major Solaris revisions is a also big plus. Compatibility is a very difficult issue to assess; even when having a reference distribution, issues like the following arise: - if the incompatibility is due to a bug in the reference distribution, does it count? - if an incompatibility is due to a difference in default $PATH, does it count There are many different ones I can think of. Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Sorry, but that would not be true. Indiana is the result of work from more than just Sun folks. It includes ksh93 for example, and it includes efforts by other non-Sun affiliated folks as well. Calling it Sun OpenSolaris would be inaccurate. What bits does Indiana include which are not Sun originated which are not also found in say, SXCE? (I.e., ksh93 and caiman do not count) Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Indiana - first glance
On 11/1/07, Dennis Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well golly gee .. that was fast. I am still playing and I just wanted to get this out there so the world can see it. I get about 44K unique users looking at Blastwave and so I wanted to stick this on the homepage : http://www.blastwave.org/articles/BLS-0061/index.html Greta article and shots.. that will be added to my blog. (BTW, how did you get the screenshots of Grub, and the console bootup?!) I am still playing and you can expect to see a whack of packages in a repo soonish from the Blastwave general direction. So that would mean we would have a pkg server at blastwave, linking directly to the libraries in /usr of Indiana? (If yes, this is time to rejoice) Regards Anil ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I remember that we did aggree ~ 2.5 years ago, that Sun would not call a distro OpenSolaris. I don't know who would have made that agreement, but like all software projects, nothing is ever permanently decided, and changes to decisions can and will be made as times change and the people involved change. Have you been on the OpenSolaris pilot? Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Doug Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So far Indiana is the only (in progress) distribution which has been proposed as a project on opensolaris.org. To me this is the core factor. All the other distributions are not under the mandate of the opensolaris.org and their future can not be voted on by the core contributors of the relevant communities. i.e. There is no other show in town unless you propose SchilliX as a project and have time to back it up :) SchilliX is a project and it still exists and Sun still does not help with SchilliX. The main issue is that Sun did miss the time to create a commiunity distribution as Sun did not help with SchilliX. The time for createing a real single community distro did pass - it is too late. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
John Plocher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have problems if this was not labelled with Sun as this would cause harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions. Shawn Walker wrote: I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly *how* other distributions would be harmed. I *think* Joerg is referring to the classic channel partner -vs- direct sales problem - if the OpenSolaris Community has its own distro, where is there room for other distros to compete? You make an important mistake here: Indiana is not a community initated distro but a _Sun_ initiated one. SchilliX was the first community initiaded OpenSolaris distro but Sun did not like to help with this distro. It is most unprobable that Indiana will be _the_ OpenSolaris distribution of the community as it was not the community that did decide to start the project. We could have a real community distribution if Sun did help with SchilliX, but I did get the answer: no, we definitely won't do that from many sites insite Sun. There are already several independent OpenSolaris distributions and you could not roll back the years The chance for a _single_ OpenSolaris distro as a joint effort from Sun and the community has been missed because Sun was not ready for this at the time when it had been possible. Sun could have a much better stand in the OSS world if there was a clear commitment to community originated efforts like BerliOS, Blastvave and SchilliX. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Indiana - first glance
On Nov 1, 2007 12:13 PM, Anil Gulecha [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/1/07, Dennis Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well golly gee .. that was fast. I am still playing and I just wanted to get this out there so the world can see it. I get about 44K unique users looking at Blastwave and so I wanted to stick this on the homepage : http://www.blastwave.org/articles/BLS-0061/index.html Greta article and shots.. that will be added to my blog. (BTW, how did you get the screenshots of Grub, and the console bootup?!) Judging by the MPO disabled message it seems to be running on VMWare. So taking the shots should be pretty much straightforward. -- Regards, Cyril ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about trying to prove that there is no such harm? That's my point. If you want to be able to prove *why* we shouldn't have a distribution called OpenSolaris you must demonstrate the harm it would cause as the benefit has already been demonstrated and talked about. I did give several examples why it would harm other distributions. Could you please be so kind to explain why you believe that there is no harm? Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Jim Grisanzio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called: Sun OpenSolaris Why would Sun OpenSolaris make sense? Actually, that expression has been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use of the brand? Of course, this would make sense. Only Sun has the rights on the name OpenSolaris but OpenSolaris is a product of the work from a community. As it makes no sense to allow everyone to call a distribution OpenSolaris, it make no sense to call one OpenSolaris. And because of the fact that OpenSolaris is the product of a community, Sun does not have the moral right to use the name OpenSolaris for a distribution. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sun OpenSolaris and Nexenta OpenSolaris do make sense to me, at least in that light. They're shorthand expressions for Sun's Solaris distribution based on OpenSolaris and the Nexenta distribution based on OpenSolaris. Except Sun doesn't have a distribution that is really based on the work of OpenSolaris.org right now. Do you like to tell us that other distributiuons are not based on OpenSolaris? Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Nov 1, 2007, at 02:01, Dennis Clarke wrote: So why not just create something that runs and call it OpenSolaris and then we are done with the confusion. There are bigger battles to fight than word games. I could not agree more with you there, Dennis. We are where we are. And actually, it's pretty good :-) S. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ubuntu thrived despite Debian's long years of existence. Slackware continues despite RedHat's rise. SUSE continues despite RedHat. Mandraiva continues despite ... etc. Does Suse claim to publish Linux? Does Ubuntu claim to publish Linux? Does Redhat claim to publish Linux? Does Mandriva claim to publish Linux? Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 31/10/2007, Joerg Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro OpenSolaris, many people believe that this is the one and only. I don't believe that for a moment. Going to ubuntu.com only lets me download Ubuntu easily; but there are links that go off to other places where you can get Kubuntu, Edubuntu, etc. Many people do know that other flavours of Ubuntu exist. With current OpenSolaris distros, we have much more variance in the feeling than with different ubuntu variants. Which is an interesting tidbit, but doesn't disprove my point. Remember that one of the goals in using the trademark is to set user expectations. This is simple: just set up a web page that points to all OpenSolaris based distributions. You cannot install OpenSolaris but an OpenSolaris based distribution. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Sara Dornsife [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As other distros cannot use the brand name, it would be bad if Sun used it. We have been discussing TM guidelines and usage scenarios for the past two weeks. We are working to create NEW guidelines. Yes, the current (past) guidelines have been restrictive. I'd like to see you work with the rest of us on how to create new guidelines that work better for all distributions. We had this discussion long ago and we decided that it was a bad idea to allow a distribution to use the name OpenSolaris. I do not see anything that would change the constraints here. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As other distros cannot use the brand name, it would be bad if Sun used it. That is incorrect; the proposed guidelines would allow them to use the name with the single restriction that they could not call themselves OpenSolaris. As I already mentioned: I have no problem is Sun calls Indiana Sun OpenSolaris. Allowing a distribution to use the name OpenSolaris would harm all others. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Joerg Schilling wrote: John Plocher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have problems if this was not labelled with Sun as this would cause harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions. Shawn Walker wrote: I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly *how* other distributions would be harmed. I *think* Joerg is referring to the classic channel partner -vs- direct sales problem - if the OpenSolaris Community has its own distro, where is there room for other distros to compete? You make an important mistake here: Indiana is not a community initated distro but a _Sun_ initiated one. SchilliX was the first community initiaded OpenSolaris distro but Sun did not like to help with this distro. It is most unprobable that Indiana will be _the_ OpenSolaris distribution of the community as it was not the community that did decide to start the project. We could have a real community distribution if Sun did help with SchilliX, but I did get the answer: no, we definitely won't do that from many sites insite Sun. There are already several independent OpenSolaris distributions and you could not roll back the years The chance for a _single_ OpenSolaris distro as a joint effort from Sun and the community has been missed because Sun was not ready for this at the time when it had been possible. Sun could have a much better stand in the OSS world if there was a clear commitment to community originated efforts like BerliOS, Blastvave and SchilliX. Jörg Nobody wants to hear this. Write a nice mail stating let's stop discussing about the name, let's just bring it out ... and then let's see and even one of the highest bosses will respond. (seen today) And in terms of Blastwave: I cannot make any statement (as I don't know the details) to which extend it has been Blastwave's own decision to mostly stay out of opensolaris.org. The good climate between the Director of Blastwave and a top OGB member makes me wonder. But if no person ever responds to my Blastwave related questions, I hardly have any other choice, than to guess. It is not my business? Well, if this is a community driven framework here, then . %martin ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Jon Trulson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro OpenSolaris, many people believe that this is the one and only. FWIW, as a third party that develops software on Solaris, I would welcome an 'OpenSolaris Reference' distribution. This would cause problems too. It is better to define a binary compatibility guideline and to have a test for compatibility. We, the community of people who create distributions in addition need to take care that this test is complete enough. To understand this problem: If I did not push Sun to verify /usr/bin/tar against _my_ POSIX compliance test, Sun tar would still not create/read POSIX.1-1988 compliant archives although it did pass the OpenGroup tests. Note that if a distribution _adds_ this to the compatibility definitions, this would make this distro unsuitable as a reference. For the same reason, I need to correct you as I believe that believe that Sun OpenSolaris could be a reference distribution. Sun OpenSolaris would most likely include more software than the reference requires and thus make it unsuitable as a reference. A reference distro has no less _and_ no more than the interface definition and grants users that software compiled on that distro to run on any other compatible distro. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Eric Boutilier wrote: Anyway, it's only just a concern at this point (re: their acid test). I personally think things are still fine because, as I mentioned in my first post, the large majority of membership (my and some others' desires notwithstanding) has tacitly expressed a desire to not hold a vote on the naming issue yet. You have absolutely zero evidence to support that assertion, yet you keep on making it. In fact there is significant evidence to the contrary. You've exactly illustrated my earlier point: The whole point of any voting mechanism is to gauge the opinion of the electorate. Without that you get into the farcical position we see so often in the OpenSolaris 'community', where multiple small subsets of the 'community' all simultaneously claim to speak for the majority, with no evidence to support their claim. Personally I don't know what the opinion of the community is on this issue, mainly because the vast majority of the voting members choose to keep quiet. All I see is a small number of voluble individuals stating and restating their opinions and claiming that they are the 'voice of the majority'. A vote is how we gauge the collective opinion of the community, not statements from one individual or another. I find the continuing attempts to avoid addressing this fundamental issue of community governance extremely perturbing. One might be forced to draw the conclusion that it's a deliberate tactic. -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Simon Phipps [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * The first community project with the chance to do so is producing an alpha-level preview. So you like to call SchilliX OpenSolaris? Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Thu, 1 Nov 2007, Alan Burlison wrote: [ ... ] Personally I don't know what the opinion of the community is on this issue, mainly because the vast majority of the voting members choose to keep quiet. All I see is a small number of voluble individuals stating and restating their opinions and claiming that they are the 'voice of the majority'. A vote is how we gauge the collective opinion of the community, not statements from one individual or another. I have to agree with Alan here. To conclude the majority approves from the the majority is silent implies that silence == approval. Such an assumption seems a bit far-fetched. That anyone opposing a proposal will have to rally their supporters and be visible about their opposition is obvious. But that someone proposing will not have to rally _their_ supporters but may assume approval-by-silence is bad governance. It's what drives people away from politics, and what gives organizations that work like this (e.g.: European Council) such a bad reputation with the people they govern. Govern by edict and your subjects will learn to hate you. People may or may not agree with what you propose, but unless you've put the question to the vote, some will be disgruntled - not because they'd object to the action as such, but because they object to the way it was done. That said, /me is now stepping back into the silent majority :) FrankH. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, but that would not be true. Indiana is the result of work from more than just Sun folks. It includes ksh93 for example, and it includes efforts by other non-Sun affiliated folks as well. Calling it Sun OpenSolaris would be inaccurate. A really comparison. Try to find out how hard it was to include ksh93 and that star is still not in! Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Ian Murdock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James Carlson wrote: Jim Grisanzio writes: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called: Sun OpenSolaris Why would Sun OpenSolaris make sense? Actually, that expression has been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use of the brand? I think it makes a lot of sense, by analogy to Linux. You can't install Linux -- without getting an immediate which one? question. You see this as a feature? Spend any time trying to build products for or around Linux, and you'll quickly start to see it as a bug. We do not need to discuss whether it is a feature or not. It is too late to avoid the same for OpenSolaris as Sun did miss the chance to cooperate with SchilliX 2.5 years ago. We already have more than _one_ single OpenSolaris distribution, you cannot roll back the years. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Dennis Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James Carlson wrote: Jim Grisanzio writes: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called: Sun OpenSolaris Why would Sun OpenSolaris make sense? Actually, that expression has been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use of the brand? I think it makes a lot of sense, by analogy to Linux. You can't install Linux -- without getting an immediate which one? question. You see this as a feature? Spend any time trying to build products for or around Linux, and you'll quickly start to see it as a bug. Solaris is a UNIX(tm) system. Solaris is Solaris which is UNIX(tm). If you want UNIX then you can go looking for AIX or HPUX or SCO(?) or Solaris. I was always under the impression that OpenSolaris was the community project that worked with and dealt with the source code to Solaris. A good example! Let us decide that Sun first needs to call Solaris UNIX before a OpenSolaris based distro is allowed to call itself OpenSolaris. Solaris is a UNIX(tm) system but you cannot call it UNIX, it is still Solaris. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Project Indiana milestone reached!
On 01/11/2007, Glynn Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: o ZFS as the default filesystem Is that as in 'ZFS root'? -- Rasputnik :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns http://number9.hellooperator.net/ ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Project Indiana milestone reached!
On 11/1/07, Dick Davies [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 01/11/2007, Glynn Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: o ZFS as the default filesystem Is that as in 'ZFS root'? Yup. ~Anil ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
John Plocher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martin Bochnig wrote: Renaming Indiana to OpenSolaris: Wouldn't that be like renaming the brand Crysler to Automibile? IMO a Crysler is not equal to Automobile. It would be a subclass of it (with more nested subclasses and then n-millions of instances/leaf nodes). I think you have it - exactly. This is like calling the automobiles built in the BMW Factory BMWs. Does BMW get it's cars from an open cummunity? Bad example. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Alan Burlison wrote: Eric Boutilier wrote: Anyway, it's only just a concern at this point (re: their acid test). I personally think things are still fine because, as I mentioned in my first post, the large majority of membership (my and some others' desires notwithstanding) has tacitly expressed a desire to not hold a vote on the naming issue yet. You have absolutely zero evidence to support that assertion, yet you keep on making it. In fact there is significant evidence to the contrary. You've exactly illustrated my earlier point: The whole point of any voting mechanism is to gauge the opinion of the electorate. Without that you get into the farcical position we see so often in the OpenSolaris 'community', where multiple small subsets of the 'community' all simultaneously claim to speak for the majority, with no evidence to support their claim. Personally I don't know what the opinion of the community is on this issue, mainly because the vast majority of the voting members choose to keep quiet. All I see is a small number of voluble individuals stating and restating their opinions and claiming that they are the 'voice of the majority'. A vote is how we gauge the collective opinion of the community, not statements from one individual or another. ... Passing on opportunity (to indicate a vote was necessary), is another way of saying what I'm trying to say. This post explains it better than I do though: http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/advocacy-discuss/2007-October/001157.html I should have also mentioned that the other reason I say things are still fine is I now believe (see earlier in this thread) that the name announcement is a tentative decision pending the outcome of the Plocher trademark policy initiative. Eric ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [indiana-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Al Hopper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the real world, we know, intuitively, that there is no such thing as a universal screw-driver. We know that every toolbox contains many screwdrivers and we give them different broad-based names to corral them into general categories... like philips screwdriver, flat-blade screwdriver.. blah, blah. Even a Phlips screwdriver is unable to corrrectly deal with any cross recess screw as Philips is just one of at least three _incompatible_ cross recess screw systems. This is also a good example as gimme a screwdriver has the same level of incompleteness as gimme OpenSolaris. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Martin Bochnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sara Dornsife wrote: Gotta love a good car analogy! :-) Car analogies are always wrong... Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Solaris is a UNIX(tm) system. Solaris is Solaris which is UNIX(tm). If you want UNIX then you can go looking for AIX or HPUX or SCO(?) or Solaris. I was always under the impression that OpenSolaris was the community project that worked with and dealt with the source code to Solaris. A good example! Let us decide that Sun first needs to call Solaris UNIX before a OpenSolaris based distro is allowed to call itself OpenSolaris. Solaris is a UNIX(tm) system but you cannot call it UNIX, it is still Solaris. One way or another, should OpenSolaris take off as Sun hopes, and have entities of various sizes jump on the bandwagon and create distros, they WILL differ and be incompatible. Just like over in Linux land. By then however, the OpenSolaris moniker will have been wasted because of the usual shitty marketing decisions. Sun's already starting to gain street cred for being annoying to deal with via OpenOffice. OO however has already a nice foothold and can afford some drama. OpenSolaris however can't (yet anyway). I hope Ian and however else is responsible for that decision wise up and retract the distro name. They can claim that it was named OpenSolaris DP because it was a test of the OS codebase in the wild, to retcon everything, and no one would probably say anything. -mg signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
EricB wrote: I should have also mentioned that the other reason I say things are still fine is I now believe (see earlier in this thread) that the name announcement is a tentative decision pending the outcome of the Plocher trademark policy initiative. 'Tentative?' hardly so, as the name has already been used for last night's release. And as for the Plocher trademark policy initiative I don't know what that refers to, I haven't been able to find anything on the advocacy community page, the trademark branding project page or the related page on genunix. Is there a web page somewhere with a draft policy on it? And if the answer to that question is No, it's all in the mail archives that's not sufficient. Expecting people to follow discussions via the archives of multiple mailing lists is not reasonable, not least because you are never sure if you are reading the current version of the proposal or not. If someone has something concrete, can we please have a page set up and the link widely disseminated? Ta. -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Project Indiana milestone reached!
o Image packaging system, with capabilities to pull packages from network repositories What's the status of that system? Is it up and running? Also, where lies the practical difference between the 660megs of this release and the 3gig of the SXCE release? Mostly, the question's just, can I compile various projects with the default install? -mg signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
I guess the point I was trying to make but forgot to add is that OpenSolaris as baseline compatibility tag is now wasted, unless the naming decision is reverted. -mg One way or another, should OpenSolaris take off as Sun hopes, and have entities of various sizes jump on the bandwagon and create distros, they WILL differ and be incompatible. Just like over in Linux land. By then however, the OpenSolaris moniker will have been wasted because of the usual shitty marketing decisions. Sun's already starting to gain street cred for being annoying to deal with via OpenOffice. OO however has already a nice foothold and can afford some drama. OpenSolaris however can't (yet anyway). I hope Ian and however else is responsible for that decision wise up and retract the distro name. They can claim that it was named OpenSolaris DP because it was a test of the OS codebase in the wild, to retcon everything, and no one would probably say anything. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
[Follow-up to [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Nov 1, 2007, at 12:54, Alan Burlison wrote: If someone has something concrete, can we please have a page set up and the link widely disseminated? Ta. http://www.genunix.org/wiki/index.php? title=Trademark_usage_and_Branding_guideline S. We reject: kings, presidents and voting. We believe in: rough consensus and running code. -- David Clark, http://ietf20.isoc.org/videos/ future_ietf_92.pdf, p.19 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 01/11/2007, Mario Goebbels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess the point I was trying to make but forgot to add is that OpenSolaris as baseline compatibility tag is now wasted, unless the naming decision is reverted. How so? A name can have multiple meanings as we have already discussed so many times before these past weeks. Windows is obviously branded with the Windows name. However, they also have compatibility branding such as Designed for Windows XP. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics are not in our favor... --Larry Wall ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 01/11/2007, bvk chaitanya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Though, i am nobody here, i agree with you Martin and Joerg. I joined into OpenSolaris groups with lots of enthusiasm (before Indiana of course.) and now i feel more like, whole OpenSolaris is a political play-ground for Sun and its managers. Anyway i wish all the best for Suns Indiana team. It feels like a playground for many of us, including me, and I am neither a Sun employee or manager. Come; jump on the Indiana swing! Wh! (yes, a bit over the top...but you get the point.) -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics are not in our favor... --Larry Wall ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 11/1/07, EricB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I should have also mentioned that the other reason I say things are still fine is I now believe (see earlier in this thread) that the name announcement is a tentative decision pending the outcome of the Plocher trademark policy initiative. Please define fine. From my very cynical viewpoint, this is all a part of Ian's plan to bypass/destroy the existing OpenSolaris structures and processes. The constitution, ARC, a strong and independent OGB etc. They are all inconvenient for the goal of having a rapid release Solaris distro that sets the standards for the entire OpenSolaris world. Choices that would be contentious, like what shell to make sh, will just be made by Ian and his distro developers, and those choices will become mandates for the rest of the OpenSolaris world. (Where before this would be an worked out in a CG and passed to the ARC). Now, here's the thing. Making these choice, is all fine and good for a distro, but that distro shouldn't be called OpenSolaris. (Rather SolarisNG or Solaris Rapid Release, or even Indiana OpenSolaris) In other words, Ian seems to have decided that democracy is a bad way to run an open source project, and wants to install himself as benevolent dictator. (Note his comments about doing what's best for the community) Cheers, Brian Eric ___ advocacy-discuss mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy-discuss -- - Brian Gupta http://opensolaris.org/os/project/nycosug/ ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
I guess the point I was trying to make but forgot to add is that OpenSolaris as baseline compatibility tag is now wasted, unless the naming decision is reverted. How so? A name can have multiple meanings as we have already discussed so many times before these past weeks. It's just my opinion that if it's going to be used as compatibility indicator, there shouldn't be a distro called like it. Unless it's explicitely called OpenSolaris Reference Distro. -mg signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
[Follow-up to [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Nov 1, 2007, at 12:54, Alan Burlison wrote: If someone has something concrete, can we please have a page set up and the link widely disseminated? Ta. http://www.genunix.org/wiki/index.php? title=Trademark_usage_and_Branding_guideline I just added that link over top of the image on the Blastwave homepage. Dennis ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Simon Phipps wrote: We reject: kings, presidents and voting... Re voting: I believe that we here believe in voting (community-wide) when a widely and deeply debated issue calls for it. (Which is to say, maybe a couple times every few years at most.) Eric We believe in: rough consensus and running code. -- David Clark, http://ietf20.isoc.org/videos/ future_ietf_92.pdf, p.19 ___ ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Jim Grisanzio writes: consensus. They are simply individual voices among everyone else. This also seems true of the OGB. When we hear from the OGB, many times the comments are qualified with speaking for myself, not the OGB and that also reduces the impact of the statement. If people are not happy with I think that's a misunderstanding. The OGB members don't have the power to speak on behalf of the body as a whole. To do so would be presumptuous in the extreme, because it is only the OGB votes that are collective decisions. If I were to attempt to speak on behalf of the OGB itself, any decisions I'd be making would effectively be robbing the other members of their right (and obligation) to vote on the matter. It's an unwarranted power grab. Given that many people seem to confuse OGB member says for the OGB told me to, I think including that kind of qualification is a positive attribute, and in no way at all diminishes the authority of the statement. Instead of being reduced, as you're saying, it simply avoids usurping _false_ power that the author does not have. That's something I wish were much more common. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Simon Phipps [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 1, 2007, at 02:01, Dennis Clarke wrote: So why not just create something that runs and call it OpenSolaris and then we are done with the confusion. There are bigger battles to fight than word games. I could not agree more with you there, Dennis. We are where we are. And actually, it's pretty good :-) This did already fit to SchilliX in June 2005. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Simon Phipps wrote: If someone has something concrete, can we please have a page set up and the link widely disseminated? Ta. http://www.genunix.org/wiki/index.php?title=Trademark_usage_and_Branding_guideline That's what I suspected was being referred to, but I wasn't sure. We reject: kings, presidents and voting. We believe in: rough consensus and running code. -- David Clark, http://ietf20.isoc.org/videos/future_ietf_92.pdf, p.19 Oh goody, I like quotations: The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting. Charles Bukowski (1920 - 1994) The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. Joseph Stalin (1879 - 1953) Vote early and vote often. Al Capone (1899 - 1947) -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
John Plocher writes: Martin Bochnig wrote: If you want to be FullyOpen, then you may have to accept this. Being a FullyOpen community member, I accept that others in the FullyOpen community may do things to which I disagree. FullyOpen does not mean everyone has a veto. It also does not mean every decision is made by consensus. Sometimes people see a need, and go on and fill it, whether or not others agree with them... I completely agree with that. Not every decision needs to be made by consensus or by community-wide voting. The distinction that I hear many drawing here is that the OpenSolaris community itself naturally has an interest in the use of the term OpenSolaris. Obviously, it doesn't (and technically can't) own the trademark, and thus can't dictate its use, but the application of that mark *does* affect all contributors. For instance, one direct effect is that prior to Indiana, a project was in OpenSolaris if it went through the established community endorsement process, and no other change was needed. Now that OpenSolaris is a distribution, the Indiana project team gets to pick and choose among other projects to be granted OpenSolaris inclusion, and needn't take the work product of all of them -- or could even modify (hack) some as part of constructing the distribution. Perhaps there's every intent to take the kitchen sink unmodified ... even though I strongly doubt that's technically possible when there are conflicts (postfix or sendmail?). However, it's well within the distributor's prerogative to determine what's in and what's out. And that's a significant change for the community. Given that this issue affects all, that makes the issue special. It's rather different from (say) creating a new distribution with an arbitrary name, or designing a new packaging system. Avoiding the insistence that there is only one real OpenSolaris distribution fixes those conflicts definitively, though I can see why the Indiana proponents don't want that result. As an alternative, putting the issue to a community-wide vote would also decide the issue (though perhaps result in more unwanted division). Simply driving on from the crash scene, though, sounds likely to produce trouble. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana milestone reached!
On Thu, Nov 01, 2007 at 04:32:34PM +1300, Glynn Foster wrote: I'm very pleased to announce that the first milestone of Project Indiana is now available - called OpenSolaris Developer Preview. It's available for download at http://dlc.sun.com/osol/indiana/downloads/current/in-preview.iso Is this release freely redistributable? It seems not, right? thanks john ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Mario Goebbels [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess the point I was trying to make but forgot to add is that OpenSolaris as baseline compatibility tag is now wasted, unless the naming decision is reverted. How so? A name can have multiple meanings as we have already discussed so many times before these past weeks. It's just my opinion that if it's going to be used as compatibility indicator, there shouldn't be a distro called like it. Unless it's explicitely called OpenSolaris Reference Distro. An OpenSolaris Reference Distro cannot be a distro intended for real use as an OpenSolaris Reference Distro needs to miss all additional software to allow a verification against the reference. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I remember that we did aggree ~ 2.5 years ago, that Sun would not call a distro OpenSolaris. I don't know who would have made that agreement, but like all software projects, nothing is ever permanently decided, and changes to decisions can and will be made as times change and the people involved change. Have you been on the OpenSolaris pilot? I was part of the OpenSolaris pilot program from the very beginning of it, but what does that have to do with decisions being subject to change as Well I remember we had this discussion in late 2004. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Nov 1, 2007, at 13:35, James Carlson wrote: For instance, one direct effect is that prior to Indiana, a project was in OpenSolaris if it went through the established community endorsement process, and no other change was needed. Now that OpenSolaris is a distribution, the Indiana project team gets to pick and choose among other projects to be granted OpenSolaris inclusion, and needn't take the work product of all of them -- or could even modify (hack) some as part of constructing the distribution. I don't agree with that. Prior to the start of the current trademark discussions, there was only a fair-use right for /anything/ to associate itself with OpenSolaris. That right can't be taken away. It's up to us to work together to make the trademark guideline[1] what we want it to be (while making sure that the people with responsibility in law for the trademark are able to approve it). It's an opportunity to do a new thing collectively and I'm hoping all the stop-energy I've seen today will soon change into do-energy. We have the running code (in both the alpha release and the name), it's time to iterate. S. We reject: kings, presidents and voting. We believe in: rough consensus and running code. -- David Clark, http://ietf20.isoc.org/videos/ future_ietf_92.pdf, p.19 [1] http://www.genunix.org/wiki/index.php? title=Trademark_usage_and_Branding_guideline ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, but that would not be true. Indiana is the result of work from more than just Sun folks. It includes ksh93 for example, and it includes efforts by other non-Sun affiliated folks as well. Calling it Sun OpenSolaris would be inaccurate. A really comparison. Try to find out how hard it was to include ksh93 and that star is still not in! star is still not in simply because no one wants it badly enough to do the work, while ksh93 is in because Roland wanted it enough to do it. Could you explain this? Your claim does not look to be correct. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Could you explain this? Your claim does not look to be correct. So: who is doing the work on star? Where is the project page? Is there an OpenSolaris ready tarbal people can test? Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] Project Indiana observations
The good: First, congrats on releasing another option with the solaris kernel. I like the speed, for a live cd. Booting from CD on a 1.6GHz centrino laptop took 2 minutes flat to get the desktop (hit enter at language selection, it will auto login too). IPS. Usually, the first thing I do after I install SXDE is to pkgadd -d http://www.blastwave.org/pkg_get.pkg all And then install the few packages I am missing. pkg status -a will show what is available. The main thing here of course is to reach critical mass of usefull package that can cover all the end user needs. Like Audacity. Inkscape. qemu. Wine. Second Life. Gnome 2.20 (there's a downside for me also, see below). I can now drop fonts to 7 until I can get a new laptop with 1920 resolution. Nautilus crashes with font size 8 on SXDE3 with Gnome 2.18.1. This is under system-preferences-appearance, not preferences-font in case anybody is looking for it, but if you are a gnome user, you knew that already. Latest SXCE/SXDE features like nwam and ZFS root! The bad: This is mostly a personal thing: Just in case anybody was expecting a JDS LF, this is GNOME. Select the nimbus theme to get back in part the look and feel of JDS (you'll have to move stuff around too). I value highly screen real-estate, and a top and bottom bar take too much space. Also, not sure why but I cant resize my menu bar to less than 27 pixels. I usually run at around 22 pixels high. 27 is too big. In fact, It looks to me like 32+ pixels. It is related to the nimbus theme. Custom default or clearlooks does resize down. No way to preserve stuff on disk on install, so I couldn't complete this. I understand the technical why. New packaging management is cool, but not much apps at this point. The ugly: from a developer standpoint, this is definitely not usable out of the box. It is missing too much tools out of the box. Will not complete boot in qemu with kqemu and only gets to console login without kqemu. Ob screenshot: http://solarisdesktop.blogspot.com/2007/11/project-indiana.html In conclusion, this is showing potential, and since this is the slim CD, we'll have to see how the DVD release looks in march 08. Francois This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could you explain this? Your claim does not look to be correct. So: who is doing the work on star? Where is the project page? Is there an OpenSolaris ready tarbal people can test? This seem to be strange questions! Did you ever fetch star and compile it? Did you ever test star? Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Joerg Schilling wrote: Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I remember that we did aggree ~ 2.5 years ago, that Sun would not call a distro OpenSolaris. I don't know who would have made that agreement, but like all software projects, nothing is ever permanently decided, and changes to decisions can and will be made as times change and the people involved change. Have you been on the OpenSolaris pilot? I was part of the OpenSolaris pilot program from the very beginning of it, but what does that have to do with decisions being subject to change as time goes on? Especially discussions held during the pilot, when it was closed and the discussions lost during the purge of NDA materials before launch, and would thus be considered not part of the OpenSolaris community. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Name Change?
John Sonnenschein wrote: Since Murdock and the rest of Sun's marketing department decided to stab the community in the back by defining by executive fiat what exactly OpenSolaris meant, perhaps it's time to rename what the old bits used to be. Anyone on OGB or other committees, what's the likelihood we can reclaim ON et al. with a new name to allow people like Nexenta to continue to be part of the community. Sun can call their distro OpenSolaris if they like, but perhaps the solution to keep them happy and not anger and split the community is to ignore OpenSolaris as being the Sun Microsystems product it is, and call $foo the community and the code You'll have to come up with a completely new name (not just NetSolaris or FreeSolaris) unless you can convince Sun management to allow use of a derivative of the Solaris trademark. Once you have that name, doing a trademark search to make sure it's not infringing someone else's trademark is (if I recall correctly) a 4-6 digit number of US dollars, depending on how many jurisdictions you want to search in.If you find a conflict with another trademark, then it's, stop/rinse/repeat, costing another iteration of the search fees, until you get a good one. So is it possible? I don't know why not. Is it going to be cheap or easy? Probably not. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could you explain this? Your claim does not look to be correct. So: who is doing the work on star? Where is the project page? Is there an OpenSolaris ready tarbal people can test? This seem to be strange questions! Did you ever fetch star and compile it? Did you ever test star? Where is the version of star which is: fully integrated in OpenSolaris (e.g., on the SFW or ON tree) fully compatible with tar? Long before Roland did the work for ksh93 you could download and run it; but the steps to integrate star have not been taken. Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Simon Phipps writes: On Nov 1, 2007, at 13:35, James Carlson wrote: For instance, one direct effect is that prior to Indiana, a project was in OpenSolaris if it went through the established community endorsement process, and no other change was needed. Now that OpenSolaris is a distribution, the Indiana project team gets to pick and choose among other projects to be granted OpenSolaris inclusion, and needn't take the work product of all of them -- or could even modify (hack) some as part of constructing the distribution. I don't agree with that. Prior to the start of the current trademark discussions, there was only a fair-use right for /anything/ to associate itself with OpenSolaris. That right can't be taken away. It's up to us to work together to make the trademark guideline[1] what we want it to be (while making sure that the people with responsibility in law for the trademark are able to approve it). I think you're missing the point I'm making. The Indiana project functions as a WOS -- as a distributor. As such, it can make inclusion decisions about other projects that others cannot make (or even challenge), and its decisions affect what is included as the reference for OpenSolaris. That's a significant community-wide power. It's a big change, without regard to the trademark legal issues. It's an opportunity to do a new thing collectively and I'm hoping all the stop-energy I've seen today will soon change into do-energy. We have the running code (in both the alpha release and the name), it's time to iterate. Again, I think that's a misunderstanding. Nobody is emitting stop-energy (whatever the heck that might be). Instead, they're asking that the folks using the community-wide name actually get the endorsement of the community that's affected by that usage -- that is, all of OpenSolaris. Alternatives include simply changing the name to Sun's OpenSolaris or Indiana to make it clear that the wider community isn't intended to be subject to this project team's decisions. None of this says stop, so I just don't agree with your assertions. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This seem to be strange questions! Did you ever fetch star and compile it? Did you ever test star? Where is the version of star which is: fully integrated in OpenSolaris (e.g., on the SFW or ON tree) fully compatible with tar? Long before Roland did the work for ksh93 you could download and run it; but the steps to integrate star have not been taken. Where is a documentation on how to integrate? SFW uses a strange makefilesystem that as very limited and does not seem to allow do what's needed. Send a description that is correct and complete anough and it should take 5 minutes. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Indiana - first glance
Anil, It runs (kinda) under qemu (under Solaris SXDE3). I do have the same problem with Belenix and Indiana though, I cant get to the graphical desktop under qemu. I can get to a text login if I dont use kqemu, but with kqemu it'll go in maintenance mode. I havent tried SXDE3 itself or SXCE 75 under qemu but they might have the same problems. I can run windows from 98 all the way to win XP (even 32 bit xp under 64 bit solaris with kqemu), Haiku and various Linux (including live cds) on that setup. This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
I think you're missing the point I'm making. The Indiana project functions as a WOS -- as a distributor. As such, it can make inclusion decisions about other projects that others cannot make (or even challenge), and its decisions affect what is included as the reference for OpenSolaris. And seemingly without any oversight, architecture review, etc, etc. That's a significant community-wide power. It's a big change, without regard to the trademark legal issues. Indeed. Alternatives include simply changing the name to Sun's OpenSolaris or Indiana to make it clear that the wider community isn't intended to be subject to this project team's decisions. None of this says stop, so I just don't agree with your assertions. No, it just says rename. Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Nov 1, 2007, at 14:18, James Carlson wrote: That's a significant community-wide power. It's a big change, without regard to the trademark legal issues. Only if we sit around and leave it as-is. You're speaking as if all decisions are made and final. That's not so. There's a stake in the ground, for sure, but we all have shovels. It's an opportunity to do a new thing collectively and I'm hoping all the stop-energy I've seen today will soon change into do-energy. We have the running code (in both the alpha release and the name), it's time to iterate. Again, I think that's a misunderstanding. Nobody is emitting stop-energy (whatever the heck that might be). I think you'll find they are. http://www.userland.com/whatIsStopEnergy S. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Simon Phipps writes: On Nov 1, 2007, at 14:18, James Carlson wrote: That's a significant community-wide power. It's a big change, without regard to the trademark legal issues. Only if we sit around and leave it as-is. You're speaking as if all decisions are made and final. That's not so. There's a stake in the ground, for sure, but we all have shovels. Great! Then you're a proponent of having this discussion ... It's an opportunity to do a new thing collectively and I'm hoping all the stop-energy I've seen today will soon change into do-energy. We have the running code (in both the alpha release and the name), it's time to iterate. Again, I think that's a misunderstanding. Nobody is emitting stop-energy (whatever the heck that might be). I think you'll find they are. http://www.userland.com/whatIsStopEnergy ... except that you're not. Wow, that's confusing. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Nov 1, 2007, at 14:38, James Carlson wrote: Simon Phipps writes: On Nov 1, 2007, at 14:18, James Carlson wrote: That's a significant community-wide power. It's a big change, without regard to the trademark legal issues. Only if we sit around and leave it as-is. You're speaking as if all decisions are made and final. That's not so. There's a stake in the ground, for sure, but we all have shovels. Great! Then you're a proponent of having this discussion I am, yes, although I prefer to see positive proposals that build on where we are now. That doesn't include fait accomplis I can do nothing comments, nor does it include barbarians have taken the town let's fall back to the castle approaches which I classify as stop-energy and try (with limited success) to ignore :-) S. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Simon Phipps wrote: That's a significant community-wide power. It's a big change, without regard to the trademark legal issues. Only if we sit around and leave it as-is. You're speaking as if all decisions are made and final. That's not so. There's a stake in the ground, for sure, but we all have shovels. Assertions about nothing being final are meaningless if we have no plan or proposal to move forwards on. I'd therefore suggest that a deadline is set of 2 weeks for preparing a proposal and associated plan to be put to the OpenSolaris community at large. The Advocacy Community and the Trademark and Branding Project are to be responsible for producing the proposal, and that when it is complete the OGB will make a decision on whether or not requires ratification by the whole community by a formal vote. That's a clear, concrete proposal for how we can move forward. -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Joerg Schilling wrote: Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I remember that we did aggree ~ 2.5 years ago, that Sun would not call a distro OpenSolaris. I don't know who would have made that agreement, but like all software projects, nothing is ever permanently decided, and changes to decisions can and will be made as times change and the people involved change. Have you been on the OpenSolaris pilot? I was part of the OpenSolaris pilot program from the very beginning of it, but what does that have to do with decisions being subject to change as Well I remember we had this discussion in late 2004. Good. Then you realize it's now 3 years later and many things have changed, as have many of the people involved, so the decisions will be different. If decisions once made were never changed, the US would still be at war with Germany, and we wouldn't be able to have this conversation at all. Fortunately, many things have changed in the past 65 years since that was the case. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Name Change?
On 11/1/07, Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Sonnenschein wrote: Since Murdock and the rest of Sun's marketing department decided to stab the community in the back by defining by executive fiat what exactly OpenSolaris meant, perhaps it's time to rename what the old bits used to be. Anyone on OGB or other committees, what's the likelihood we can reclaim ON et al. with a new name to allow people like Nexenta to continue to be part of the community. Sun can call their distro OpenSolaris if they like, but perhaps the solution to keep them happy and not anger and split the community is to ignore OpenSolaris as being the Sun Microsystems product it is, and call $foo the community and the code You'll have to come up with a completely new name (not just NetSolaris or FreeSolaris) unless you can convince Sun management to allow use of a derivative of the Solaris trademark. Correct, the goal of this would be to find a trademark, that can be used as the $foo community sees fit. Once you have that name, doing a trademark search to make sure it's not infringing someone else's trademark is (if I recall correctly) a 4-6 digit number of US dollars, depending on how many jurisdictions you want to search in.If you find a conflict with another trademark, then it's, stop/rinse/repeat, costing another iteration of the search fees, until you get a good one. Let's assume for a minute that the Trademark is filed in the US. (I know that's not perfect, but it is a starting place). If you pay outside council to do the search, and file the applications, it will cost many thousands of dollars. If you do it yourself, the trademark search is free. (And all the lawyers will do is search the USPTO website anyway). Also, filing a trademark application does not require an attorney, and costs ~$700 per application to file. Add to that the costs for filing with the IRS for a non-profit corporation, and you are going to get close to $4-5K. (This number assumes it's an all volunteer organization, and that group does all of it's own work.) So is it possible? I don't know why not. Is it going to be cheap or easy? Probably not. I agree that it won't be cheap or easy, but it doesn't need to be as expensive as people are thinking. The much easier route would be for Sun to back away from this divisive decision to bypass the existing democratic process. If anyone wishes to pursue/lead this, I can help/advise on the trademark side, as I have done a lot of research to prepare for the Trademark and Naming/Branding Development project in the Advocacy CG. (BTW - I must say the Internet is awesome... this wouldn't have been possible 10-15 years ago.) Cheers, Brian P.S. - The fact is that this will most likely not get off the ground, unless there is a large outswelling of support from within the community. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org -- - Brian Gupta http://opensolaris.org/os/project/nycosug/ ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
[Dropping [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] since this is getting way off topic.] Joerg Schilling wrote: Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: star is still not in simply because no one wants it badly enough to do the work, while ksh93 is in because Roland wanted it enough to do it. Could you explain this? Your claim does not look to be correct. I don't know of any reason star cannot be integrated into OpenSolaris. I don't know of anyone working on integrating star into OpenSolaris. No one has proposed a project on opensolaris.org or requested a sponsor from the request-sponsor list. The only reason I know of that star is not in OpenSolaris is no one, including yourself, has volunteered to do the work necessary to make it happen. Roland did all this work for ksh93, and thus it's in. Things don't integrate themselves, someone has to decide it's something worth spending their time on and then do it. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: we don't seem to be doing enough to facilitate the other distro's existence at opensolaris.org. +1 ! Its not the decision that matters, it is *how* the decision was made. -John ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Nov 1, 2007, at 14:54, Alan Burlison wrote: Simon Phipps wrote: That's a significant community-wide power. It's a big change, without regard to the trademark legal issues. Only if we sit around and leave it as-is. You're speaking as if all decisions are made and final. That's not so. There's a stake in the ground, for sure, but we all have shovels. Assertions about nothing being final are meaningless if we have no plan or proposal to move forwards on. I'd therefore suggest that a deadline is set of 2 weeks for preparing a proposal and associated plan to be put to the OpenSolaris community at large. The Advocacy Community and the Trademark and Branding Project are to be responsible for producing the proposal, and that when it is complete the OGB will make a decision on whether or not requires ratification by the whole community by a formal vote. That's a clear, concrete proposal for how we can move forward. Sounds a device calculated to lead to an early no vote to me - reminds me of an earlier controversy. While developing a proposal now is a positive thing to do, I suggest waiting until closer to when we actually need a decision (which would be the middle of next year) before we try to crystalise a veto like that. We may find our attitudes have changed. If they haven't - well, fair enough. S. We reject: kings, presidents and voting. We believe in: rough consensus and running code. -- David Clark, http://ietf20.isoc.org/videos/ future_ietf_92.pdf, p.19 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] Nvidia 8700 less than stellar performance
I have just installed build 75 on a Sager 5791 laptop with Nvidia 8700 graphics. I am experiencing very sluggish graphics response compared to another laptop with a 7600 in it. Has anyone else seen performance problems with the Nvidia driver on 8700 series cards? Thanks mike This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Simon Phipps wrote: While developing a proposal now is a positive thing to do, I suggest waiting until closer to when we actually need a decision (which would be the middle of next year) before we try to crystalise a veto like that. We may find our attitudes have changed. If they haven't - well, fair enough. Middle of next year seems too late with the Indiana schedule to release the official OpenSolaris distro in March, as is now plastered across the http://opensolaris.org/ main page. I agree two weeks seems arbitrarily short, but given the timelines, think that December/January-ish is about as late as we can push it unless Indiana agrees to choose another name for it's March release. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Joerg Schilling wrote: You make an important mistake here: Indiana is not a community initated distro but a _Sun_ initiated one. You keep asserting this, as if anything done with or by people working for Sun has no validity. Bullshit. If 95% of the people working on opensolaris things are Sun Employees, then (in your perspective) 95% of the things done here aren't community efforts. Hey, we are OpenSolaris Community members also! SchilliX was the first community initiaded OpenSolaris distro but Sun did not like to help with this distro. I'd say, rather, that Sun had its hands full with launching the whole opensolaris effort, and didn't have the time, resources, connections to the right people and/or legal ability to do the things needed to make Schillix happen. Transforming that complexity into a disparaging Sun did not like to help is a bit much. -John ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Bryan Cantrill wrote: I can't bring myself to utter +1 -- only beause I find it to be a lazy way of expression -- but I strongly agree with this proposal. The only thing I would add is that if the OGB decides not to put it to a formal community-wide vote that the proposal be ratified or rejected by the OGB itself. Agreed, I should have been more explicit and put that in. We elected the OGB to be the voice of the community, it seems right that they should be given the power to act in that role in this case. -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Nvidia 8700 less than stellar performance
On 01/11/2007, Mike DeMarco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have just installed build 75 on a Sager 5791 laptop with Nvidia 8700 graphics. I am experiencing very sluggish graphics response compared to another laptop with a 7600 in it. Has anyone else seen performance problems with the Nvidia driver on 8700 series cards? If you installed Solaris Express, it's probably a driver bug. Have you tried a newer nVidia driver from www.nvidia.com yet? If you installed Project Indiana's OpenSolaris Developer Preview, you will need to install the nVidia driver manually as nVidia does not yet permit redistribution of their driver for OpenSolaris-based distributions. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics are not in our favor... --Larry Wall ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [ogb-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Thu, 2007-11-01 at 15:13 +, Simon Phipps wrote: That's a clear, concrete proposal for how we can move forward. Sounds a device calculated to lead to an early no vote to me - In the absence of a policy, it's premature for sun to continue distributing something calling itself the OpenSolaris Developer Preview. Let me be clear: I think it's good that the code is out there but IMHO the name chosen is at best premature. You quote Dave Clark's statement: We reject: kings, presidents and voting. We believe in: rough consensus and running code. By IETF standards, we do not have rough consensus on the name. detach the name from the code and we'll be in far better shape. - Bill ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 11/1/2007 9:25 AM, John Plocher wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: So you like to call SchilliX OpenSolaris? Absolutely yes - one of my objectives in this branding effort is to find a way to allow this (or something similar). -John Once (and if), of course, SchilliX is derived from whatever constitutes the eventual OpenSolaris disto. Marty Duey ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Nov 1, 2007, at 15:25, John Plocher wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: So you like to call SchilliX OpenSolaris? Absolutely yes - one of my objectives in this branding effort is to find a way to allow this (or something similar). +1. We just have to make sure our proposal is one fiduciaries are able to approve. S. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Simon Phipps wrote: Sounds a device calculated to lead to an early no vote to me - reminds me of an earlier controversy. And this sounds like exactly the same argument that you tried to use in that case to avoid bringing the issue to some sort of resolution, and as a result it rumbled on and on. If I was being suspicious I'd say that your position is a device calculated to avoid putting an issue to the vote that you suspect it might go the 'wrong way' - but I'm sure I am maligning you, in which case you have my profuse apologies. But then again, accusing me of wanting to bias the vote when I've stated that I will support whatever decision the OGB and/or community seems slightly unfair too. While developing a proposal now is a positive thing to do, I suggest waiting until closer to when we actually need a decision (which would be the middle of next year) before we try to crystalise a veto like that. We may find our attitudes have changed. If they haven't - well, fair enough. No. We need a decision before then. 2 weeks may be too short, 6 months is way too long. -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [advocacy-discuss] [ogb-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Thu, Nov 01, 2007 at 10:21:15AM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the project team were content to be known as Indiana or some other name that does not imply the community's exclusive endorsement without our consent, the entire controversy would evaporate very quickly. +1 And while rapid iteration and prototyping is fine for an Indiana distribution, it's NOT fine for a reference distribution. Reference distribution implies ARC[1] and non controversial. I very much agree. If something calls itself OpenSolaris, then I expect it to be just that and not what others have dubbed linuxaris. Whatever Indiana wants to try out is fine as long as it doesn't pretend to be Solaris when it clearly doesn't want to be. vh Mads Toftum -- http://soulfood.dk ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [indiana-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
First, congratulations to Indiana team. Thanks to Ian and Simon. You people did a wonderful job in brining Indiana to life. Though, i am nobody here, i agree with you Martin and Joerg. I joined into OpenSolaris groups with lots of enthusiasm (before Indiana of course.) and now i feel more like, whole OpenSolaris is a political play-ground for Sun and its managers. Anyway i wish all the best for Suns Indiana team. bvk-chaitanya -- Effective way to suppress the concern of any community member is, simply ignore him ;-) It works! See *the* OpenSolaris disto! ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
That's a significant community-wide power. It's a big change, without regard to the trademark legal issues. Only if we sit around and leave it as-is. You're speaking as if all decisions are made and final. That's not so. There's a stake in the ground, for sure, but we all have shovels. Assertions about nothing being final are meaningless if we have no plan or proposal to move forwards on. I'd therefore suggest that a deadline is set of 2 weeks for preparing a proposal and associated plan to be put to the OpenSolaris community at large. The Advocacy Community and the Trademark and Branding Project are to be responsible for producing the proposal, and that when it is complete the OGB will make a decision on whether or not requires ratification by the whole community by a formal vote. I can't bring myself to utter +1 -- only beause I find it to be a lazy way of expression -- but I strongly agree with this proposal. The only thing I would add is that if the OGB decides not to put it to a formal community-wide vote that the proposal be ratified or rejected by the OGB itself. Personally, I find it unfortunate that the Indiana project has elected to take a divisive path in terms of their nomenclature (and yes, nomenclature is very, very important), but I would like to see us move on, one way or another... - Bryan -- Bryan Cantrill, Sun Microsystems FishWorks. http://blogs.sun.com/bmc ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Alan Coopersmith wrote: I agree two weeks seems arbitrarily short, but given the timelines, think that December/January-ish is about as late as we can push it unless Indiana agrees to choose another name for it's March release. My post was a proposal, a stake in the ground - no more no less. If there's a better suggestion, I'm all for it. -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
No. We need a decision before then. 2 weeks may be too short, 6 months is way too long. Since a distro named OpenSolaris is out now, I'd +1 sooner rather than later. Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 11/1/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No. We need a decision before then. 2 weeks may be too short, 6 months is way too long. Since a distro named OpenSolaris is out now, I'd +1 sooner rather than later. i'd say it is already late nacho ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Alan Burlison wrote: I'd therefore suggest that a deadline is set of 2 weeks for preparing a proposal and associated plan to be put to the OpenSolaris community at large. The Advocacy Community and the Trademark and Branding Project are to be responsible for producing the proposal, and that when it is complete the OGB will make a decision on whether or not requires ratification by the whole community by a formal vote. In case it isn't clear, the proposal I'm referring to can be found at: http://www.genunix.org/wiki/index.php?title=Trademark_usage_and_Branding_guideline -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Thu 11/01/07 at 15:13 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While developing a proposal now is a positive thing to do, I suggest waiting until closer to when we actually need a decision (which would be the middle of next year) before we try to crystalise a veto like that. We may find our attitudes have changed. If they haven't - well, fair enough. We needed a decision yesterday - before the release of the distro. Waiting 6 months before making a decision doesn't make any sense at all. At that point, the argument will be: We've been calling it OpenSolaris for 6 months and everybody knows it by that name, so we can't possibly change it now. Nils ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
[osol-discuss] Sun Studio 12 and Indiana
see bottom of : http://www.blastwave.org/articles/BLS-0061/index.html - Dennis Clarke ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 09:37 -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I remember that we did aggree ~ 2.5 years ago, that Sun would not call a distro OpenSolaris. I don't know who would have made that agreement, but like all software projects, nothing is ever permanently decided, and changes to decisions can and will be made as times change and the people involved change. however, our ARC process is all about making clear (but expressly scoped) commitments to our users, and historically we have gone to great lengths to honor those commitments. it is not surprising that outsiders to sun would develop the same expectation of other parts of sun. - Bill ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Nvidia 8700 less than stellar performance
On 01/11/2007, Mike DeMarco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have just installed build 75 on a Sager 5791 laptop with Nvidia 8700 graphics. I am experiencing very sluggish graphics response compared to another laptop with a 7600 in it. Has anyone else seen performance problems with the Nvidia driver on 8700 series cards? If you installed Solaris Express, it's probably a driver bug. Have you tried a newer nVidia driver from www.nvidia.com yet? If you installed Project Indiana's OpenSolaris Developer Preview, you will need to install the nVidia driver manually as nVidia does not yet permit redistribution of their driver for OpenSolaris-based distributions. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics are not in our favor... --Larry Wall ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org Using the driver from opensolaris. I went to Nvidia to look for the driver but: a) they do not list the 8700 in the pull down list. b) when selecting 8600 or 8800 they say there is no solaris driver. This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well I remember we had this discussion in late 2004. Good. Then you realize it's now 3 years later and many things have changed, as have many of the people involved, so the decisions will be different. I don't see that the constraints did change since then. If decisions once made were never changed, the US would still be at war with Germany, and we wouldn't be able to have this conversation at all. Fortunately, many things have changed in the past 65 years since that was the case. Wold war II did end on October 2nd 1990, this is much less than 65 years ago. Between May 1945 and October 1990, there was only ceasefire. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Dropping [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] since this is getting way off topic.] Joerg Schilling wrote: Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: star is still not in simply because no one wants it badly enough to do the work, while ksh93 is in because Roland wanted it enough to do it. Could you explain this? Your claim does not look to be correct. I don't know of any reason star cannot be integrated into OpenSolaris. I don't know of anyone working on integrating star into OpenSolaris. No one has proposed a project on opensolaris.org or requested a sponsor from the request-sponsor list. There _is_ an OpenSolaris project nobody except me works for it and this seems to be the problem. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Project Indiana observations
Will not complete boot in qemu with kqemu and only gets to console login without kqemu. Kernel-kqemu will put SMF into a restart loop for some reason. Regular kqemu works fine. Be sure to define -std-vga as parameter to QEMU. It seems that Xorg doesn't work with the emulated Cirrus device. -mg signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Nvidia 8700 less than stellar performance
Thanks Shawn: I found the driver on NVIDIA web site and installed it. Problem is solved. Thanks mike This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Name Change?
On 11/1/07, Brandorr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The much easier route would be for Sun to back away from this divisive decision to bypass the existing democratic process. [snip] P.S. - The fact is that this will most likely not get off the ground, unless there is a large outswelling of support from within the community. There was reference to OGB talking to Sun management. I hope something +ve comes out of it. Neither of the 2 is a win-win situation - The current situation - Going independant without Sun's involvement Irrespective of the motivations, the community building has been possible due to Sun. I hope Sun recognizes the problems that this is causing not just for the community but to itself as well. A healthy a vibrant community is in the interest of Sun as well. I hope the OGB's talk with Sun helps both Sun and the community and this thread becomes irrelevant. regards Shiv ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Name Change?
On 11/1/07, S h i v [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope the OGB's talk with Sun helps both Sun and the community and this thread becomes irrelevant. that would be the ideal scenario, but without a vote on the matter, it's just Sun being a dictator -- PGP Public Key 0x437AF1A1 Available on hkp://pgp.mit.edu ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] Nvidia 8700 less than stellar performance
Mike DeMarco wrote: I have just installed build 75 on a Sager 5791 laptop with Nvidia 8700 graphics. The nvidia accelerated graphics driver included in build 75 does not support GeForce 8xxx series cards yet. That support was not integrated until build 76, since it requires dropping support for older cards, which we had to evaluate first to see how many people would be affected. As you've already seen, the current Solaris driver on nvidia.com does have the support for the 8xxx series. For more details, see: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/solarisx86/message/44508 -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] how to add to SFW
Darren J Moffat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This seem to be strange questions! Did you ever fetch star and compile it? Did you ever test star? Where is the version of star which is: fully integrated in OpenSolaris (e.g., on the SFW or ON tree) fully compatible with tar? Long before Roland did the work for ksh93 you could download and run it; but the steps to integrate star have not been taken. Where is a documentation on how to integrate? SFW uses a strange makefilesystem that as very limited and does not seem to allow do what's needed. http://opensolaris.org/os/project/sfwnv/ In the documentation section. Are you talking about this: http://opensolaris.org/os/project/sfwnv/Documents/Build_engine_policy/ I cannot find information on makefile targets and when what gets called. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
John Plocher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: You make an important mistake here: Indiana is not a community initated distro but a _Sun_ initiated one. You keep asserting this, as if anything done with or by people working for Sun has no validity. Bullshit. Would you please use a less unfriendly wording? If 95% of the people working on opensolaris things are Sun Employees, then (in your perspective) 95% of the things done here aren't community efforts. Hey, we are OpenSolaris Community members also! SchilliX was the first community initiaded OpenSolaris distro but Sun did not like to help with this distro. I'd say, rather, that Sun had its hands full with launching the whole opensolaris effort, and didn't have the time, resources, connections to the right people and/or legal ability to do the things needed to make Schillix happen. Transforming that complexity into a disparaging Sun did not like to help is a bit much. People did accuse that I did not try to create a community and for this reason, I need to explain that Sun was not interested in such a community. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
