Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Joerg Schilling wrote: SchilliX is a project and it still exists and Sun still does not help with SchilliX. The main issue is that Sun did miss the time to create a commiunity distribution as Sun did not help with SchilliX. The time for createing a real single community distro did pass - it is too late. I remember discussions early on that Sun ought not play favorites among distros that are initiated outside the company, and I think we've held to that. Really, the majority of our time the last four years has been spent on opening the OpenSolaris project itself, not on any one project. And it's not too late for a new distro, by the way. That's what they said about OpenSolaris, remember? And they were all wrong. :) Jim -- http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Al Hopper wrote: On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Shawn Walker wrote: The ability to use the OpenSolaris name is a privilege; not a right. ^^^ This is absolutely correct. And, along with the ownership of that trademark comes the responsibility of having to defend its use - even in the face of a McBride/SCO type (never-ending) court challenge. It's Suns trademark and they have the right to use it and mandate how it can/should be used. But they are also prepared to pony up anything from $100k to $1m+ to defend it. Sun owns the trademark, true, but I trust that the intention here is to share the brand with the community. To me, the brand becomes much more valuable when it's leveraged across the entire OpenSolaris community. That's what I'm waiting to see here. I think we need to see the full branding guidelines to see the full context. I've been watching OpenSolaris since it first launched and I've seen more progress and interest in OpenSolaris since Project Indiana was announced than ever. +1 Please be careful when comparing the present to the past. Indiana is standing on the shoulders of those who have gone before in this community. There have been a lot of people who have brought this project to the point where it was ready for a distro. And actually, some would argue that we are not even ready for a distro since Indiana is not based on 100% open source code. And I've been in favor of this project (after I recovered from the initial shock of Ian Murdock being hired by Sun) - because it means that people are putting money and talented developer manhours into making OpenSolaris even better. We (as in the community) are getting a new installer, a new packaging/distribution mechanism and an improved patching mechanism - and thats just for starters. Who is *not* in favor of that. How unfair is that!? Are you kidding - this is *great* for OpenSolaris (the Project) and I don't care who thinks its unfair that Sun owns the OpenSolaris trademark and wants to associate some flavor of that name to describe a resulting distribution which they have largely sponsored. But shouldn't Sun share the trademark with the community in some way? I know the company doesn't have to, but we are trying to build a community and I think that's one of the basic issues here. I wonder what the reaction would have been had the name been released with a set of full branding guidelines enabling the community to engage in the brand. Let's come up with a policy that we can live with and let Indiana move forward. Let OpenSolaris move forward. I'm sorry that we all can't own valuable trademarks and land our private 767s in our back yard - but we can help make OpenSolaris (and its derivitives) the best OS on the planet and we *will* have to make compromises and sacrefices to make this happen. Agree. But can we not call it the best OS on the planet? :) Never liked that tag line. Jim -- http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 12:40 -0700, John Plocher wrote: One of my comments on the wiki definition was along the lines of: We could, as a starting place for defining compatibility, simply assert that there is a baseline (installer and a set of versioned packages; a recipe, if you will) that must exist in any distro if it wants to claim compatibility. Of course, this type of definition is poor, from many perspectives. It is, however, easy to implement :-) This may in fact be close to the right starting place. At the higher levels I'd want to see a goal of: every piece of your distribution built from opensolaris sources should be independently reproduceable from source, and changes between the base opensolaris sources and the sources used in the build must be clearly identified. If the source changes can be identified, then an expert user can make an independant judgement about whether the changes are sufficiently compatible for their purposes. we need a tight definition of reproduceable that excludes things that are expected to change from build to build (such as elf timestamps and elfsign signatures). At the lower levels (built with OpenSolaris) it should suffice to identify the specific versions of opensolaris sources which were used to build the product. It presumes significant sameness between distros - not a bad thing from a compatibility perspective. Same installer, same kernel, same packaging system, same repositories... Given the current state of pkg, I think it's premature to require everyone use the same packaging system. What really matters for binary compatibility is what the packaging system delivers onto the running system. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People did accuse that I did not try to create a community and for this reason, I need to explain that Sun was not interested in such a community. Why should Sun have to be interested? You could have proposed something to the community. Why must Sun be the one to make everything happen? I did try to get help from the community and I did have many discussions with Sun to no avail. What is your concern? The problem is that Sun takes working project ideas from the community outside Sun and creates internal projects with nearly identical goals. This is something that causes the main problems in the opensolaris related mailing lists. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 02/11/2007, Joerg Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People did accuse that I did not try to create a community and for this reason, I need to explain that Sun was not interested in such a community. Why should Sun have to be interested? You could have proposed something to the community. Why must Sun be the one to make everything happen? I did try to get help from the community and I did have many discussions with Sun to no avail. What is your concern? So people weren't interested. That happens sometimes. But you can't blame others for this failure. The problem is that Sun takes working project ideas from the community outside Sun and creates internal projects with nearly identical goals. This is something that causes the main problems in the opensolaris related mailing lists. I'm not sure I agree, but I've only been working with Solaris since 2005; obviously you have twenty more years on me. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics are not in our favor... --Larry Wall ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
[Followups to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Joerg Schilling wrote: Compatiblitiy is less trivial than you might belive but without conformance tests, we cannot claim anything about compatibility ... A distro alone cannot be a refernce. It must not even be changed for the compatibility tests. One of my comments on the wiki definition was along the lines of: We could, as a starting place for defining compatibility, simply assert that there is a baseline (installer and a set of versioned packages; a recipe, if you will) that must exist in any distro if it wants to claim compatibility. Of course, this type of definition is poor, from many perspectives. It is, however, easy to implement :-) It presumes significant sameness between distros - not a bad thing from a compatibility perspective. Same installer, same kernel, same packaging system, same repositories... But, it is a starting point that we can use today, rather than waiting for someone to develop a full blown, ratified test suite... -John ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Doug Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So far Indiana is the only (in progress) distribution which has been proposed as a project on opensolaris.org. To me this is the core factor. All the other distributions are not under the mandate of the opensolaris.org and their future can not be voted on by the core contributors of the relevant communities. i.e. There is no other show in town unless you propose SchilliX as a project and have time to back it up :) SchilliX is a project and it still exists and Sun still does not help with SchilliX. The main issue is that Sun did miss the time to create a commiunity distribution as Sun did not help with SchilliX. The time for createing a real single community distro did pass - it is too late. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
John Plocher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have problems if this was not labelled with Sun as this would cause harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions. Shawn Walker wrote: I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly *how* other distributions would be harmed. I *think* Joerg is referring to the classic channel partner -vs- direct sales problem - if the OpenSolaris Community has its own distro, where is there room for other distros to compete? You make an important mistake here: Indiana is not a community initated distro but a _Sun_ initiated one. SchilliX was the first community initiaded OpenSolaris distro but Sun did not like to help with this distro. It is most unprobable that Indiana will be _the_ OpenSolaris distribution of the community as it was not the community that did decide to start the project. We could have a real community distribution if Sun did help with SchilliX, but I did get the answer: no, we definitely won't do that from many sites insite Sun. There are already several independent OpenSolaris distributions and you could not roll back the years The chance for a _single_ OpenSolaris distro as a joint effort from Sun and the community has been missed because Sun was not ready for this at the time when it had been possible. Sun could have a much better stand in the OSS world if there was a clear commitment to community originated efforts like BerliOS, Blastvave and SchilliX. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Jim Grisanzio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called: Sun OpenSolaris Why would Sun OpenSolaris make sense? Actually, that expression has been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use of the brand? Of course, this would make sense. Only Sun has the rights on the name OpenSolaris but OpenSolaris is a product of the work from a community. As it makes no sense to allow everyone to call a distribution OpenSolaris, it make no sense to call one OpenSolaris. And because of the fact that OpenSolaris is the product of a community, Sun does not have the moral right to use the name OpenSolaris for a distribution. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sun OpenSolaris and Nexenta OpenSolaris do make sense to me, at least in that light. They're shorthand expressions for Sun's Solaris distribution based on OpenSolaris and the Nexenta distribution based on OpenSolaris. Except Sun doesn't have a distribution that is really based on the work of OpenSolaris.org right now. Do you like to tell us that other distributiuons are not based on OpenSolaris? Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ubuntu thrived despite Debian's long years of existence. Slackware continues despite RedHat's rise. SUSE continues despite RedHat. Mandraiva continues despite ... etc. Does Suse claim to publish Linux? Does Ubuntu claim to publish Linux? Does Redhat claim to publish Linux? Does Mandriva claim to publish Linux? Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Sara Dornsife [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As other distros cannot use the brand name, it would be bad if Sun used it. We have been discussing TM guidelines and usage scenarios for the past two weeks. We are working to create NEW guidelines. Yes, the current (past) guidelines have been restrictive. I'd like to see you work with the rest of us on how to create new guidelines that work better for all distributions. We had this discussion long ago and we decided that it was a bad idea to allow a distribution to use the name OpenSolaris. I do not see anything that would change the constraints here. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As other distros cannot use the brand name, it would be bad if Sun used it. That is incorrect; the proposed guidelines would allow them to use the name with the single restriction that they could not call themselves OpenSolaris. As I already mentioned: I have no problem is Sun calls Indiana Sun OpenSolaris. Allowing a distribution to use the name OpenSolaris would harm all others. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Joerg Schilling wrote: John Plocher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have problems if this was not labelled with Sun as this would cause harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions. Shawn Walker wrote: I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly *how* other distributions would be harmed. I *think* Joerg is referring to the classic channel partner -vs- direct sales problem - if the OpenSolaris Community has its own distro, where is there room for other distros to compete? You make an important mistake here: Indiana is not a community initated distro but a _Sun_ initiated one. SchilliX was the first community initiaded OpenSolaris distro but Sun did not like to help with this distro. It is most unprobable that Indiana will be _the_ OpenSolaris distribution of the community as it was not the community that did decide to start the project. We could have a real community distribution if Sun did help with SchilliX, but I did get the answer: no, we definitely won't do that from many sites insite Sun. There are already several independent OpenSolaris distributions and you could not roll back the years The chance for a _single_ OpenSolaris distro as a joint effort from Sun and the community has been missed because Sun was not ready for this at the time when it had been possible. Sun could have a much better stand in the OSS world if there was a clear commitment to community originated efforts like BerliOS, Blastvave and SchilliX. Jörg Nobody wants to hear this. Write a nice mail stating let's stop discussing about the name, let's just bring it out ... and then let's see and even one of the highest bosses will respond. (seen today) And in terms of Blastwave: I cannot make any statement (as I don't know the details) to which extend it has been Blastwave's own decision to mostly stay out of opensolaris.org. The good climate between the Director of Blastwave and a top OGB member makes me wonder. But if no person ever responds to my Blastwave related questions, I hardly have any other choice, than to guess. It is not my business? Well, if this is a community driven framework here, then . %martin ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Martin Bochnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sara Dornsife wrote: Gotta love a good car analogy! :-) Car analogies are always wrong... Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, but that would not be true. Indiana is the result of work from more than just Sun folks. It includes ksh93 for example, and it includes efforts by other non-Sun affiliated folks as well. Calling it Sun OpenSolaris would be inaccurate. A really comparison. Try to find out how hard it was to include ksh93 and that star is still not in! star is still not in simply because no one wants it badly enough to do the work, while ksh93 is in because Roland wanted it enough to do it. Could you explain this? Your claim does not look to be correct. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Nov 1, 2007, at 14:18, James Carlson wrote: That's a significant community-wide power. It's a big change, without regard to the trademark legal issues. Only if we sit around and leave it as-is. You're speaking as if all decisions are made and final. That's not so. There's a stake in the ground, for sure, but we all have shovels. It's an opportunity to do a new thing collectively and I'm hoping all the stop-energy I've seen today will soon change into do-energy. We have the running code (in both the alpha release and the name), it's time to iterate. Again, I think that's a misunderstanding. Nobody is emitting stop-energy (whatever the heck that might be). I think you'll find they are. http://www.userland.com/whatIsStopEnergy S. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Simon Phipps writes: On Nov 1, 2007, at 14:18, James Carlson wrote: That's a significant community-wide power. It's a big change, without regard to the trademark legal issues. Only if we sit around and leave it as-is. You're speaking as if all decisions are made and final. That's not so. There's a stake in the ground, for sure, but we all have shovels. Great! Then you're a proponent of having this discussion ... It's an opportunity to do a new thing collectively and I'm hoping all the stop-energy I've seen today will soon change into do-energy. We have the running code (in both the alpha release and the name), it's time to iterate. Again, I think that's a misunderstanding. Nobody is emitting stop-energy (whatever the heck that might be). I think you'll find they are. http://www.userland.com/whatIsStopEnergy ... except that you're not. Wow, that's confusing. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Nov 1, 2007, at 14:38, James Carlson wrote: Simon Phipps writes: On Nov 1, 2007, at 14:18, James Carlson wrote: That's a significant community-wide power. It's a big change, without regard to the trademark legal issues. Only if we sit around and leave it as-is. You're speaking as if all decisions are made and final. That's not so. There's a stake in the ground, for sure, but we all have shovels. Great! Then you're a proponent of having this discussion I am, yes, although I prefer to see positive proposals that build on where we are now. That doesn't include fait accomplis I can do nothing comments, nor does it include barbarians have taken the town let's fall back to the castle approaches which I classify as stop-energy and try (with limited success) to ignore :-) S. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Simon Phipps wrote: That's a significant community-wide power. It's a big change, without regard to the trademark legal issues. Only if we sit around and leave it as-is. You're speaking as if all decisions are made and final. That's not so. There's a stake in the ground, for sure, but we all have shovels. Assertions about nothing being final are meaningless if we have no plan or proposal to move forwards on. I'd therefore suggest that a deadline is set of 2 weeks for preparing a proposal and associated plan to be put to the OpenSolaris community at large. The Advocacy Community and the Trademark and Branding Project are to be responsible for producing the proposal, and that when it is complete the OGB will make a decision on whether or not requires ratification by the whole community by a formal vote. That's a clear, concrete proposal for how we can move forward. -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
[Dropping [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] since this is getting way off topic.] Joerg Schilling wrote: Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: star is still not in simply because no one wants it badly enough to do the work, while ksh93 is in because Roland wanted it enough to do it. Could you explain this? Your claim does not look to be correct. I don't know of any reason star cannot be integrated into OpenSolaris. I don't know of anyone working on integrating star into OpenSolaris. No one has proposed a project on opensolaris.org or requested a sponsor from the request-sponsor list. The only reason I know of that star is not in OpenSolaris is no one, including yourself, has volunteered to do the work necessary to make it happen. Roland did all this work for ksh93, and thus it's in. Things don't integrate themselves, someone has to decide it's something worth spending their time on and then do it. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Nov 1, 2007, at 14:54, Alan Burlison wrote: Simon Phipps wrote: That's a significant community-wide power. It's a big change, without regard to the trademark legal issues. Only if we sit around and leave it as-is. You're speaking as if all decisions are made and final. That's not so. There's a stake in the ground, for sure, but we all have shovels. Assertions about nothing being final are meaningless if we have no plan or proposal to move forwards on. I'd therefore suggest that a deadline is set of 2 weeks for preparing a proposal and associated plan to be put to the OpenSolaris community at large. The Advocacy Community and the Trademark and Branding Project are to be responsible for producing the proposal, and that when it is complete the OGB will make a decision on whether or not requires ratification by the whole community by a formal vote. That's a clear, concrete proposal for how we can move forward. Sounds a device calculated to lead to an early no vote to me - reminds me of an earlier controversy. While developing a proposal now is a positive thing to do, I suggest waiting until closer to when we actually need a decision (which would be the middle of next year) before we try to crystalise a veto like that. We may find our attitudes have changed. If they haven't - well, fair enough. S. We reject: kings, presidents and voting. We believe in: rough consensus and running code. -- David Clark, http://ietf20.isoc.org/videos/ future_ietf_92.pdf, p.19 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Simon Phipps wrote: While developing a proposal now is a positive thing to do, I suggest waiting until closer to when we actually need a decision (which would be the middle of next year) before we try to crystalise a veto like that. We may find our attitudes have changed. If they haven't - well, fair enough. Middle of next year seems too late with the Indiana schedule to release the official OpenSolaris distro in March, as is now plastered across the http://opensolaris.org/ main page. I agree two weeks seems arbitrarily short, but given the timelines, think that December/January-ish is about as late as we can push it unless Indiana agrees to choose another name for it's March release. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Joerg Schilling wrote: You make an important mistake here: Indiana is not a community initated distro but a _Sun_ initiated one. You keep asserting this, as if anything done with or by people working for Sun has no validity. Bullshit. If 95% of the people working on opensolaris things are Sun Employees, then (in your perspective) 95% of the things done here aren't community efforts. Hey, we are OpenSolaris Community members also! SchilliX was the first community initiaded OpenSolaris distro but Sun did not like to help with this distro. I'd say, rather, that Sun had its hands full with launching the whole opensolaris effort, and didn't have the time, resources, connections to the right people and/or legal ability to do the things needed to make Schillix happen. Transforming that complexity into a disparaging Sun did not like to help is a bit much. -John ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Bryan Cantrill wrote: I can't bring myself to utter +1 -- only beause I find it to be a lazy way of expression -- but I strongly agree with this proposal. The only thing I would add is that if the OGB decides not to put it to a formal community-wide vote that the proposal be ratified or rejected by the OGB itself. Agreed, I should have been more explicit and put that in. We elected the OGB to be the voice of the community, it seems right that they should be given the power to act in that role in this case. -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 11/1/2007 9:25 AM, John Plocher wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: So you like to call SchilliX OpenSolaris? Absolutely yes - one of my objectives in this branding effort is to find a way to allow this (or something similar). -John Once (and if), of course, SchilliX is derived from whatever constitutes the eventual OpenSolaris disto. Marty Duey ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Nov 1, 2007, at 15:25, John Plocher wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: So you like to call SchilliX OpenSolaris? Absolutely yes - one of my objectives in this branding effort is to find a way to allow this (or something similar). +1. We just have to make sure our proposal is one fiduciaries are able to approve. S. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Simon Phipps wrote: Sounds a device calculated to lead to an early no vote to me - reminds me of an earlier controversy. And this sounds like exactly the same argument that you tried to use in that case to avoid bringing the issue to some sort of resolution, and as a result it rumbled on and on. If I was being suspicious I'd say that your position is a device calculated to avoid putting an issue to the vote that you suspect it might go the 'wrong way' - but I'm sure I am maligning you, in which case you have my profuse apologies. But then again, accusing me of wanting to bias the vote when I've stated that I will support whatever decision the OGB and/or community seems slightly unfair too. While developing a proposal now is a positive thing to do, I suggest waiting until closer to when we actually need a decision (which would be the middle of next year) before we try to crystalise a veto like that. We may find our attitudes have changed. If they haven't - well, fair enough. No. We need a decision before then. 2 weeks may be too short, 6 months is way too long. -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
That's a significant community-wide power. It's a big change, without regard to the trademark legal issues. Only if we sit around and leave it as-is. You're speaking as if all decisions are made and final. That's not so. There's a stake in the ground, for sure, but we all have shovels. Assertions about nothing being final are meaningless if we have no plan or proposal to move forwards on. I'd therefore suggest that a deadline is set of 2 weeks for preparing a proposal and associated plan to be put to the OpenSolaris community at large. The Advocacy Community and the Trademark and Branding Project are to be responsible for producing the proposal, and that when it is complete the OGB will make a decision on whether or not requires ratification by the whole community by a formal vote. I can't bring myself to utter +1 -- only beause I find it to be a lazy way of expression -- but I strongly agree with this proposal. The only thing I would add is that if the OGB decides not to put it to a formal community-wide vote that the proposal be ratified or rejected by the OGB itself. Personally, I find it unfortunate that the Indiana project has elected to take a divisive path in terms of their nomenclature (and yes, nomenclature is very, very important), but I would like to see us move on, one way or another... - Bryan -- Bryan Cantrill, Sun Microsystems FishWorks. http://blogs.sun.com/bmc ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Alan Coopersmith wrote: I agree two weeks seems arbitrarily short, but given the timelines, think that December/January-ish is about as late as we can push it unless Indiana agrees to choose another name for it's March release. My post was a proposal, a stake in the ground - no more no less. If there's a better suggestion, I'm all for it. -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
No. We need a decision before then. 2 weeks may be too short, 6 months is way too long. Since a distro named OpenSolaris is out now, I'd +1 sooner rather than later. Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 11/1/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No. We need a decision before then. 2 weeks may be too short, 6 months is way too long. Since a distro named OpenSolaris is out now, I'd +1 sooner rather than later. i'd say it is already late nacho ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Alan Burlison wrote: I'd therefore suggest that a deadline is set of 2 weeks for preparing a proposal and associated plan to be put to the OpenSolaris community at large. The Advocacy Community and the Trademark and Branding Project are to be responsible for producing the proposal, and that when it is complete the OGB will make a decision on whether or not requires ratification by the whole community by a formal vote. In case it isn't clear, the proposal I'm referring to can be found at: http://www.genunix.org/wiki/index.php?title=Trademark_usage_and_Branding_guideline -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Thu 11/01/07 at 15:13 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While developing a proposal now is a positive thing to do, I suggest waiting until closer to when we actually need a decision (which would be the middle of next year) before we try to crystalise a veto like that. We may find our attitudes have changed. If they haven't - well, fair enough. We needed a decision yesterday - before the release of the distro. Waiting 6 months before making a decision doesn't make any sense at all. At that point, the argument will be: We've been calling it OpenSolaris for 6 months and everybody knows it by that name, so we can't possibly change it now. Nils ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Dropping [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] since this is getting way off topic.] Joerg Schilling wrote: Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: star is still not in simply because no one wants it badly enough to do the work, while ksh93 is in because Roland wanted it enough to do it. Could you explain this? Your claim does not look to be correct. I don't know of any reason star cannot be integrated into OpenSolaris. I don't know of anyone working on integrating star into OpenSolaris. No one has proposed a project on opensolaris.org or requested a sponsor from the request-sponsor list. There _is_ an OpenSolaris project nobody except me works for it and this seems to be the problem. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
John Plocher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: You make an important mistake here: Indiana is not a community initated distro but a _Sun_ initiated one. You keep asserting this, as if anything done with or by people working for Sun has no validity. Bullshit. Would you please use a less unfriendly wording? If 95% of the people working on opensolaris things are Sun Employees, then (in your perspective) 95% of the things done here aren't community efforts. Hey, we are OpenSolaris Community members also! SchilliX was the first community initiaded OpenSolaris distro but Sun did not like to help with this distro. I'd say, rather, that Sun had its hands full with launching the whole opensolaris effort, and didn't have the time, resources, connections to the right people and/or legal ability to do the things needed to make Schillix happen. Transforming that complexity into a disparaging Sun did not like to help is a bit much. People did accuse that I did not try to create a community and for this reason, I need to explain that Sun was not interested in such a community. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 01/11/2007, Joerg Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Plocher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: You make an important mistake here: Indiana is not a community initated distro but a _Sun_ initiated one. You keep asserting this, as if anything done with or by people working for Sun has no validity. Bullshit. Would you please use a less unfriendly wording? If 95% of the people working on opensolaris things are Sun Employees, then (in your perspective) 95% of the things done here aren't community efforts. Hey, we are OpenSolaris Community members also! SchilliX was the first community initiaded OpenSolaris distro but Sun did not like to help with this distro. I'd say, rather, that Sun had its hands full with launching the whole opensolaris effort, and didn't have the time, resources, connections to the right people and/or legal ability to do the things needed to make Schillix happen. Transforming that complexity into a disparaging Sun did not like to help is a bit much. People did accuse that I did not try to create a community and for this reason, I need to explain that Sun was not interested in such a community. Why should Sun have to be interested? You could have proposed something to the community. Why must Sun be the one to make everything happen? -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics are not in our favor... --Larry Wall ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Joerg Schilling wrote: I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called: Sun OpenSolaris Why would Sun OpenSolaris make sense? Actually, that expression has been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use of the brand? Jim -- http://blogs.sun.com/jimgris ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Joerg Schilling wrote: Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: More than 2 years ago, we did agreee that noone except Sun has the right to call a distro OpenSolaris and that Sun shoul/would not do this. I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called: Sun OpenSolaris I have problems if this was not labelled with Sun as this would cause harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions. I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly *how* other distributions would be harmed. How about trying to prove that there is no such harm? It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro OpenSolaris, many people believe that this is the one and only. Jörg, So far Indiana is the only (in progress) distribution which has been proposed as a project on opensolaris.org. To me this is the core factor. All the other distributions are not under the mandate of the opensolaris.org and their future can not be voted on by the core contributors of the relevant communities. i.e. There is no other show in town unless you propose SchilliX as a project and have time to back it up :) Doug ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 31/10/2007, Chris Mahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/31/07, Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's my point. If you want to be able to prove *why* we shouldn't have a distribution called OpenSolaris you must demonstrate the harm it would cause as the benefit has already been demonstrated and talked about. Not to be offensive, but other than hurt feelings, I don't see the harm in it. I agree with Joerg (for once--just kidding!) in that an official OpenSolaris distribution will harm other OpenSolaris-based projects. Here's why. As Ian Murdock eloquently states in the third paragraph in this very thread: ... - one answer to that question is clear to me: OpenSolaris MUST be something new users can download and install. This, of course, is meant to drive incoming eyeballs (new users) to the obvious choice, the Official OpenSolaris distro. So the eyeball will, instead of being puzzled by the myriad arrays of available distro, and instead of reading the descriptions and reading about Nexenta's debian-like packaging and ShilliX's Unix on USB, they will sheepfully click on the big green Download OpenSolaris button. * And they will not go to the other distros. And since distros need people, new people, to thrive, the Official OpenSolaris distro will be disproportionately advantaged in the draw of new users compared to other distros, who will wither away. People's decisions will not be based on the technical merit of each distro, after careful examination of the characteristics of each distro and based on their need. Rather, they will become Victims of Marketing and be funneled into OpenSolaris-that-was-Indiana. So, does it harm other distros? In the sense that they will be starved for new users, definitely. By the same logic, Ubuntu never should have succeeded since there was nothing to drive people from the Debian or any other website to it. RedHat shouldn't have been able to rise to dominance and Slackware fall, and so forth. If one of the alternative distributions provides a truly better experience, users will naturally flock to it: birds of a feather. The ability to use the OpenSolaris name is a privilege; not a right. Yes the distribution with the name gets the most visibility, but if another one provides a better experience, people will choose it despite it's goofy name (e.g. see Ubuntu). The other thing here that is going unmentioned is that the distribution is not set in stone. There is absolutely nothing preventing another project being started on OpenSolaris.org called Project Wonkers and having it become the new official distribution. The community here has the power and ability to directly drive the contents of this distribution and instead I just see a bunch of bickering about how unfair everything is. Stop complaining and do something about it! I've been watching OpenSolaris since it first launched and I've seen more progress and interest in OpenSolaris since Project Indiana was announced than ever. I don't see hordes of people flocking to Nexenta despite the fact that it provided a better experience in many ways over a year ago. This isn't about anyone's pet project getting top billing; this is about growing up and meeting the needs of our users instead of bickering about who's feelings are going to be hurt. Stop focusing on yourselves; focus on the users. We need to do what's best for the community, not our egos. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics are not in our favor... --Larry Wall ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 10/31/07, Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's my point. If you want to be able to prove *why* we shouldn't have a distribution called OpenSolaris you must demonstrate the harm it would cause as the benefit has already been demonstrated and talked about. Not to be offensive, but other than hurt feelings, I don't see the harm in it. I agree with Joerg (for once--just kidding!) in that an official OpenSolaris distribution will harm other OpenSolaris-based projects. Here's why. As Ian Murdock eloquently states in the third paragraph in this very thread: ... - one answer to that question is clear to me: OpenSolaris MUST be something new users can download and install. This, of course, is meant to drive incoming eyeballs (new users) to the obvious choice, the Official OpenSolaris distro. So the eyeball will, instead of being puzzled by the myriad arrays of available distro, and instead of reading the descriptions and reading about Nexenta's debian-like packaging and ShilliX's Unix on USB, they will sheepfully click on the big green Download OpenSolaris button. * And they will not go to the other distros. And since distros need people, new people, to thrive, the Official OpenSolaris distro will be disproportionately advantaged in the draw of new users compared to other distros, who will wither away. People's decisions will not be based on the technical merit of each distro, after careful examination of the characteristics of each distro and based on their need. Rather, they will become Victims of Marketing and be funneled into OpenSolaris-that-was-Indiana. So, does it harm other distros? In the sense that they will be starved for new users, definitely. * (I'm going to argue that people who run Sparc will find MartUX all by themselves. That's assuming that distro can still exist sans Martin Bochnig.) -- Chris Mahan http://www.christophermahan.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] cell 818.943.1850 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Joerg Schilling wrote: I have problems if this was not labelled with Sun as this would cause harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions. Shawn Walker wrote: I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly *how* other distributions would be harmed. I *think* Joerg is referring to the classic channel partner -vs- direct sales problem - if the OpenSolaris Community has its own distro, where is there room for other distros to compete? The answer, of course, isn't simple. The status quo changes, and we all have to change or be left behind. As an awesome first non-Sun distro, Schillix broke ground that made it possible for there to /be/ non-Sun distros. But, that was 2 years ago, and finally the community is getting itself up to speed. Rather than being a private effort run outside of the OpenSolaris Community, Indiana is producing a distro within the community itself. (It is interesting to note that of these 6 initial distros, only the SX and Belinix teams seem to have put in the effort to transform their outsider distros into something done within the community) In the end, though, this is a loosely structured community, driven by those who do rather than those who talk. See a need, fill a need. Sometimes there are competing efforts and one succeeds while the other doesn't. Othertimes, both succeed wildly. It is all about choices. If Joerg or any of the other initial-distro leads had so desired, they *could have* created an OpenSolaris Community/Project to host and develop their distros; chances are that if they had, their efforts would now be the ones we would want to call OpenSolaris. Ironic, no? -John ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Shawn Walker wrote: Stop focusing on yourselves; focus on the users. We need to do what's best for the community, not our egos. I absolutely agree with Shawn on this one. We are going to have to make some tough choices, and some people will feel left out by them and that's the reality we're going to all have to face. Glynn ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Jim Grisanzio writes: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called: Sun OpenSolaris Why would Sun OpenSolaris make sense? Actually, that expression has been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use of the brand? I think it makes a lot of sense, by analogy to Linux. You can't install Linux -- without getting an immediate which one? question. You can only install a distribution of it, of which there are many. People do talk about running RedHat Linux or getting Ubuntu Linux. The Linux part is the generic term, and the distribution name makes it specific. Sun OpenSolaris and Nexenta OpenSolaris do make sense to me, at least in that light. They're shorthand expressions for Sun's Solaris distribution based on OpenSolaris and the Nexenta distribution based on OpenSolaris. I think the real issue here is that many are seeing Indiana as _Sun's_ vision, and not the or even a community vision. In that light, it becomes Sun's distribution and nobody else's. That's why the naming is such an important thing. Frankly, I don't really know which viewpoint is correct. But I do think we're going to have to acknowledge and address those differing views if we're going to make any progress. -- James Carlson, Solaris Networking [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Doug Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro OpenSolaris, many people believe that this is the one and only. Jörg, So far Indiana is the only (in progress) distribution which has been proposed as a project on opensolaris.org. To me this is the core factor. The core factor is that I did _ask_ for cooperation on the OpenSolaris mailing list. Instead of cooperating, people did start their own projects. Belenix has no really different goals than SchilliX and it would have been normal to cooperate. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 10/31/07, Glynn Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Shawn Walker wrote: Stop focusing on yourselves; focus on the users. We need to do what's best for the community, not our egos. I absolutely agree with Shawn on this one. We are going to have to make some tough choices, and some people will feel left out by them and that's the reality we're going to all have to face. Ok, but there's where I com from: I am a user. I am a consumer, not a producer, of operating systems. I build web applications. I use debian stable (Etch) as my OS of choice right now, on one dedicated and several virtual servers. Yes, I select my os, download it, congure it, and run it myself. I use Solaris 9 at the office and F'in hate it. I also don't like Ubuntu that much, and I don't care for RH, although I've used it. I tried Mandriva for a bit and that wasn't my cup of tea. I've not messed with anything else since I found debian because it hits my sweet spot. So you can consider me as a dispassionate user who wants a top-of-the-line, dynamic OS. I really want ShilliX to do well because thanks to python I can make offline web servers available (WSGI+framework+SQLite for those interested) and I want to be able to have a OS+Server+application+browser on USB, self-launchable, that will work offline and online the same way. (webservices back end on server when connected to the net). That's the kind of thing I want. I care not for this or that distro, but I am experienced enough to understand that diversity breeds diversity and I want the OpenSolaris world to be defined by diversity and not by a one-trick-pony OS. I also don't work for Sun so I don't have to watch my words or attitude for fear of the HR axe. If some of you find what I say grating to their sensibilities, tough. -- Chris Mahan http://www.christophermahan.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] cell 818.943.1850 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 31/10/2007, James Carlson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim Grisanzio writes: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called: Sun OpenSolaris Why would Sun OpenSolaris make sense? Actually, that expression has been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use of the brand? I think it makes a lot of sense, by analogy to Linux. You can't install Linux -- without getting an immediate which one? question. You can only install a distribution of it, of which there are many. People do talk about running RedHat Linux or getting Ubuntu Linux. The Linux part is the generic term, and the distribution name makes it specific. Sun OpenSolaris and Nexenta OpenSolaris do make sense to me, at least in that light. They're shorthand expressions for Sun's Solaris distribution based on OpenSolaris and the Nexenta distribution based on OpenSolaris. Except Sun doesn't have a distribution that is really based on the work of OpenSolaris.org right now. The implication here is that Project Indiana is Sun's distribution; which is not true. Project Indiana is a distribution birthed by members of the OpenSolaris community, discussed and developed here within reason, and a product of the efforts of the members of this community as a project (*in the strict sense*) officially recognized by this community. Therefore it would not be proper to call the OpenSolaris Developer Preview Sun's OpenSolaris Developer Preview because the distribution is the result of OpenSolaris.org and not Sun. I think the real issue here is that many are seeing Indiana as _Sun's_ vision, and not the or even a community vision. In that light, it becomes Sun's distribution and nobody else's. That's why the naming is such an important thing. The converse is true; some community members here see it as a OpenSolaris.org project; not a Sun one. I don't think Sun has any interest in commercially marketing a product under anything but the name Solaris. So let's leave the subjective views aside and focus on what best represents our community. Frankly, I don't really know which viewpoint is correct. But I do think we're going to have to acknowledge and address those differing views if we're going to make any progress. Indeed. Let's stir the pot some more... -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics are not in our favor... --Larry Wall ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 31/10/2007, Chris Mahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/31/07, Glynn Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Shawn Walker wrote: Stop focusing on yourselves; focus on the users. We need to do what's best for the community, not our egos. I absolutely agree with Shawn on this one. We are going to have to make some tough choices, and some people will feel left out by them and that's the reality we're going to all have to face. Ok, but there's where I com from: I am a user. I am a consumer, not a producer, of operating systems. I build web applications. I use debian stable (Etch) as my OS of choice right now, on one dedicated and several virtual servers. Yes, I select my os, download it, congure it, and run it myself. I use Solaris 9 at the office and F'in hate it. I also don't like Ubuntu that much, and I don't care for RH, although I've used it. I tried Mandriva for a bit and that wasn't my cup of tea. I've not messed with anything else since I found debian because it hits my sweet spot. So you can consider me as a dispassionate user who wants a top-of-the-line, dynamic OS. I really want ShilliX to do well because thanks to python I can make offline web servers available (WSGI+framework+SQLite for those interested) and I want to be able to have a OS+Server+application+browser on USB, self-launchable, that will work offline and online the same way. (webservices back end on server when connected to the net). That's the kind of thing I want. I care not for this or that distro, but I am experienced enough to understand that diversity breeds diversity and I want the OpenSolaris world to be defined by diversity and not by a one-trick-pony OS. I also don't work for Sun so I don't have to watch my words or attitude for fear of the HR axe. If some of you find what I say grating to their sensibilities, tough. I see nothing in what you've stated that conflicts with having a distribution called OpenSolaris. Ubuntu thrived despite Debian's long years of existence. Slackware continues despite RedHat's rise. SUSE continues despite RedHat. Mandraiva continues despite ... etc. As I implied before, users ultimately determine the life and death of a brand or product and the community is in control here. If users start flocking to something else, then do something about it! That's what Project Indiana is about; growing the community and capturing users. Can *anyone* prove to me how a project that *improve* and grow our community is to our detriment? It's been two years now and other distributions have had every opportunity to grow their communities. Do we want to remain a niche community for the next two years or are we ready to grow up and start meeting the expectations of our users? I would hope we're mature enough now to start doing whatever it takes to meet the expectations of users. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics are not in our favor... --Larry Wall ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 10/31/07, Tim Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dredging up the past, or looking at where we've come from wrt. distributions isn't making forward progress. I say, let's run with what's happening now, and see where it takes us. Come on in, the water's fine! I personally think more distros haven't come up because the code to fully compile the OS isn't all open-sourced. I could be wrong, of course. This is just my gut feeling. -- Chris Mahan http://www.christophermahan.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] cell 818.943.1850 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Shawn Walker wrote: On 31/10/2007, Joerg Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro OpenSolaris, many people believe that this is the one and only. I don't believe that for a moment. Going to ubuntu.com only lets me download Ubuntu easily; but there are links that go off to other places where you can get Kubuntu, Edubuntu, etc. Many people do know that other flavours of Ubuntu exist. With current OpenSolaris distros, we have much more variance in the feeling than with different ubuntu variants. Which is an interesting tidbit, but doesn't disprove my point. Remember that one of the goals in using the trademark is to set user expectations. If, as you say, we have much more variance right now between OpenSolaris distributions than usage of the trademark should be restricted accordingly. Setting user expectations should be a primary goal for any distribution. And differentiating. Why would/should a user chose one distribution over another? It's not solely based on what it is called, but what it offers. Like with Ubuntu, which keeps getting brought up, each distro targets a specific market. Variations are what are all the distros should be going for, as has always been the case. And with good TM guidelines in place, we can form a family of compatible distributions that focus on different areas and carry the OpenSolaris name. I have yet to find any fault in anything Shawn has said. It's getting a little creepy. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Jim Grisanzio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called: Sun OpenSolaris Why would Sun OpenSolaris make sense? Actually, that expression has been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use of the brand? As other distros cannot use the brand name, it would be bad if Sun used it. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 31/10/2007, Joerg Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim Grisanzio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called: Sun OpenSolaris Why would Sun OpenSolaris make sense? Actually, that expression has been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use of the brand? As other distros cannot use the brand name, it would be bad if Sun used it. That is incorrect; the proposed guidelines would allow them to use the name with the single restriction that they could not call themselves OpenSolaris. Sun is not the one using the trademark here; Sun is allowing an OpenSolaris.org project called Project Indiana to use the trademark to represent their project. It would be no different if I had started Project Wonkers and gotten Sun's permission to use the trademark. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics are not in our favor... --Larry Wall ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
John Plocher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If Joerg or any of the other initial-distro leads had so desired, they *could have* created an OpenSolaris Community/Project to host and develop their distros; chances are that if they had, their efforts would now be the ones we would want to call OpenSolaris. Ironic, no? Some of your (removed) statements are correct, but this is misunderstanding the problem. There was a community for SchilliX, but some core people did disappear. SchilliX is not dead but from my experiences with trying to get new people that help, just creating an OpenSolaris Community/Project would not help. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Shawn Walker wrote: On 31/10/2007, Chris Mahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/31/07, Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's my point. If you want to be able to prove *why* we shouldn't have a distribution called OpenSolaris you must demonstrate the harm it would cause as the benefit has already been demonstrated and talked about. Not to be offensive, but other than hurt feelings, I don't see the harm in it. I agree with Joerg (for once--just kidding!) in that an official OpenSolaris distribution will harm other OpenSolaris-based projects. Here's why. As Ian Murdock eloquently states in the third paragraph in this very thread: ... - one answer to that question is clear to me: OpenSolaris MUST be something new users can download and install. This, of course, is meant to drive incoming eyeballs (new users) to the obvious choice, the Official OpenSolaris distro. So the eyeball will, instead of being puzzled by the myriad arrays of available distro, and instead of reading the descriptions and reading about Nexenta's debian-like packaging and ShilliX's Unix on USB, they will sheepfully click on the big green Download OpenSolaris button. * And they will not go to the other distros. And since distros need people, new people, to thrive, the Official OpenSolaris distro will be disproportionately advantaged in the draw of new users compared to other distros, who will wither away. People's decisions will not be based on the technical merit of each distro, after careful examination of the characteristics of each distro and based on their need. Rather, they will become Victims of Marketing and be funneled into OpenSolaris-that-was-Indiana. So, does it harm other distros? In the sense that they will be starved for new users, definitely. By the same logic, Ubuntu never should have succeeded since there was nothing to drive people from the Debian or any other website to it. RedHat shouldn't have been able to rise to dominance and Slackware fall, and so forth. If one of the alternative distributions provides a truly better experience, users will naturally flock to it: birds of a feather. The ability to use the OpenSolaris name is a privilege; not a right. ^^^ This is absolutely correct. And, along with the ownership of that trademark comes the responsibility of having to defend its use - even in the face of a McBride/SCO type (never-ending) court challenge. It's Suns trademark and they have the right to use it and mandate how it can/should be used. But they are also prepared to pony up anything from $100k to $1m+ to defend it. If someone in the community says that this is unfair, then my first question to them is: are you prepared to spend $1m of your own money to defend this valuable trademark? It's also unfair that Googles founders get to fly their 767 into a private airfield in Mountain View CA - almost their own backyard - while we have to endure getting stuck in commuter traffic! Life is unfair - get over it. But what makes this completely fair, is that we, as individuals, have the ability to define our own trademark and our own OpenSolaris based distribution and the ability to startup our own Google alternative. Yes the distribution with the name gets the most visibility, but if another one provides a better experience, people will choose it despite it's goofy name (e.g. see Ubuntu). The other thing here that is going unmentioned is that the distribution is not set in stone. There is absolutely nothing preventing another project being started on OpenSolaris.org called Project Wonkers and having it become the new official distribution. The community here has the power and ability to directly drive the contents of this distribution and instead I just see a bunch of bickering about how unfair everything is. Stop complaining and do something about it! +1 I've been watching OpenSolaris since it first launched and I've seen more progress and interest in OpenSolaris since Project Indiana was announced than ever. +1 And I've been in favor of this project (after I recovered from the initial shock of Ian Murdock being hired by Sun) - because it means that people are putting money and talented developer manhours into making OpenSolaris even better. We (as in the community) are getting a new installer, a new packaging/distribution mechanism and an improved patching mechanism - and thats just for starters. Who is *not* in favor of that. How unfair is that!? Are you kidding - this is *great* for OpenSolaris (the Project) and I don't care who thinks its unfair that Sun owns the OpenSolaris trademark and wants to associate some flavor of that name to describe a resulting distribution which they have largely sponsored. I don't see hordes of people flocking to Nexenta despite the fact that it provided a better experience in many
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
James Carlson wrote: I think the real issue here is that many are seeing Indiana as _Sun's_ vision, and not the or even a community vision. In that light, it becomes Sun's distribution and nobody else's. That's why the naming is such an important thing. Frankly, I don't really know which viewpoint is correct. But I do think we're going to have to acknowledge and address those differing views if we're going to make any progress. There should have been a vote. That is why we have people with voting rights - so we have a formal mechanism for gauging the views of the community on important changes which affect the entire community. This is clearly such an issue. -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Joerg Schilling wrote: Jim Grisanzio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called: Sun OpenSolaris Why would Sun OpenSolaris make sense? Actually, that expression has been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use of the brand? As other distros cannot use the brand name, it would be bad if Sun used it. We have been discussing TM guidelines and usage scenarios for the past two weeks. We are working to create NEW guidelines. Yes, the current (past) guidelines have been restrictive. I'd like to see you work with the rest of us on how to create new guidelines that work better for all distributions. Jörg ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Al Hopper wrote: And I've been in favor of this project (after I recovered from the initial shock of Ian Murdock being hired by Sun) - because it means that people are putting money and talented developer manhours into making OpenSolaris even better. We (as in the community) are getting a new installer, a new packaging/distribution mechanism and an improved patching mechanism - and thats just for starters. Who is *not* in favor of that. How unfair is that!? Are you kidding - this is *great* for OpenSolaris (the Project) and I don't care who thinks its unfair that Sun owns the OpenSolaris trademark and wants to associate some flavor of that name to describe a resulting distribution which they have largely sponsored. I don't want to rain on your parade, but all those things you mentioned would have happened even if Indiana hadn't come along. Granted, they've probably happened a little faster, but they are all areas that were already being worked on. -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 10/31/07, Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Except Sun doesn't have a distribution that is really based on the work of OpenSolaris.org right now. The implication here is that Project Indiana is Sun's distribution; which is not true. Input to the contrary couldn't have been more specific and to the point: http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/trademark-policy-dev/2007-October/000145.html http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/trademark-policy-dev/2007-October/000158.html While this need not preclude the naming privilege to Indiana as discussed in that thread, Ignoring these inputs and re-iterating the stance doesn't make the argument credible. -Shiv ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 31/10/2007, S h i v [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/31/07, Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Except Sun doesn't have a distribution that is really based on the work of OpenSolaris.org right now. The implication here is that Project Indiana is Sun's distribution; which is not true. Input to the contrary couldn't have been more specific and to the point: http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/trademark-policy-dev/2007-October/000145.html http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/trademark-policy-dev/2007-October/000158.html That input is not a fact; it is a personal evaluation. I happen to disagree with that evaluation. You may see this as Sun's project alone; I do not. I see it as a project representative of the OpenSolaris.org community's work. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics are not in our favor... --Larry Wall ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Alan Burlison wrote: Al Hopper wrote: And I've been in favor of this project (after I recovered from the initial shock of Ian Murdock being hired by Sun) - because it means that people are putting money and talented developer manhours into making OpenSolaris even better. We (as in the community) are getting a new installer, a new packaging/distribution mechanism and an improved patching mechanism - and thats just for starters. Who is *not* in favor of that. How unfair is that!? Are you kidding - this is *great* for OpenSolaris (the Project) and I don't care who thinks its unfair that Sun owns the OpenSolaris trademark and wants to associate some flavor of that name to describe a resulting distribution which they have largely sponsored. I don't want to rain on your parade, but all those things you mentioned would have happened even if Indiana hadn't come along. Granted, they've probably happened a little faster, but they are all areas that were already being worked on. Yes - I understand that. Someone at the Summit said that the new installer has been a work-in-progress for about 2 years (not sure how accurate that number is). And I understand that Indiana is acting as a catalyst and focusing the various development teams on a common completion timeline. This will have a large and very positive impact on the end user experience! Regards, Al Hopper Logical Approach Inc, Plano, TX. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice: 972.379.2133 Fax: 972.379.2134 Timezone: US CDT OpenSolaris Governing Board (OGB) Member - Apr 2005 to Mar 2007 http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/ogb/ogb_2005-2007/ Graduate from sugar-coating school? Sorry - I never attended! :) ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Al Hopper wrote: I don't want to rain on your parade, but all those things you mentioned would have happened even if Indiana hadn't come along. Granted, they've probably happened a little faster, but they are all areas that were already being worked on. Yes - I understand that. Someone at the Summit said that the new installer has been a work-in-progress for about 2 years (not sure how accurate that number is). And I understand that Indiana is acting as a catalyst and focusing the various development teams on a common completion timeline. This will have a large and very positive impact on the end user experience! You original post implied to me at least that Indiana was the progenitor of those features. Over the last 6 months or so there has been a tendency to rewrite opensolaris history to suit whatever is soup de jour. I think it is important that we keep clear about what happened, when and why. -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Alan Burlison wrote: Al Hopper wrote: I don't want to rain on your parade, but all those things you mentioned would have happened even if Indiana hadn't come along. Granted, they've probably happened a little faster, but they are all areas that were already being worked on. Yes - I understand that. Someone at the Summit said that the new installer has been a work-in-progress for about 2 years (not sure how accurate that number is). And I understand that Indiana is acting as a catalyst and focusing the various development teams on a common completion timeline. This will have a large and very positive impact on the end user experience! You original post implied to me at least that Indiana was the progenitor of those features. Over the last 6 months or so there has been a tendency to rewrite opensolaris history to suit whatever is soup de jour. I think it is important that we keep clear about what happened, when and why. Agreed 100% Alan and thanks for calling me on it. Regards, Al Hopper Logical Approach Inc, Plano, TX. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Voice: 972.379.2133 Fax: 972.379.2134 Timezone: US CDT OpenSolaris Governing Board (OGB) Member - Apr 2005 to Mar 2007 http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/ogb/ogb_2005-2007/ Graduate from sugar-coating school? Sorry - I never attended! :) ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Al Hopper wrote: You original post implied to me at least that Indiana was the progenitor of those features. Over the last 6 months or so there has been a tendency to rewrite opensolaris history to suit whatever is soup de jour. I think it is important that we keep clear about what happened, when and why. Agreed 100% Alan and thanks for calling me on it. No probs, and thanks :-) -- Alan Burlison -- ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 10/31/2007 2:42 PM, Ceri Davies wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 12:08:12PM -0600, Jon Trulson wrote: On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote: Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: More than 2 years ago, we did agreee that noone except Sun has the right to call a distro OpenSolaris and that Sun shoul/would not do this. I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called: Sun OpenSolaris I have problems if this was not labelled with Sun as this would cause harm to other existing OpenSolaris based distributions. I have yet to see any qualifying statements that indicate exactly *how* other distributions would be harmed. How about trying to prove that there is no such harm? How could that possibly be done? It is obvious that if Sun calls a distro OpenSolaris, many people believe that this is the one and only. FWIW, as a third party that develops software on Solaris, I would welcome an 'OpenSolaris Reference' distribution. Without it, we would be forced to choose one or two of the dists available to try to officially support, much as we have to do now on Linux. There's your example of harm; Jon Trulson would be supporting only the reference distribution and not the other distros. This can be expected to hold true for others. [1] Ceri [1] This can, of course, be seen to be a good thing for ISVs, but that's not the question which was one of harm to other distros. I think you're reaching. As has been stated numerous times throughout the thread today, what end users decide to run as their OpenSolaris-based distro will determine which distro(s) an ISV has to support. On the other hand, if ISVs like Jon qualify a reference distribution then ti should be easier to offer support to derivative distros as well. Certainly easier than is the case in Linux-land today. Marty ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
There's your example of harm; Jon Trulson would be supporting only the reference distribution and not the other distros. This can be expected to hold true for others. [1] Ceri [1] This can, of course, be seen to be a good thing for ISVs, but that's not the question which was one of harm to other distros. I think you're reaching. As has been stated numerous times throughout the thread today, what end users decide to run as their OpenSolaris-based distro will determine which distro(s) an ISV has to support. On the other hand, if ISVs like Jon qualify a reference distribution then ti should be easier to offer support to derivative distros as well. Certainly easier than is the case in Linux-land today. Marty -- Actually, this goes against what we discussed at the OpenSolaris Developer Summit. If you don't have a common consistency amongest OpenSolaris distros then we are just setting up a main point of failure to support and maintenance efforts. We made a point that the distros should have a minimum reference standard at the least. If an ISV goes off and builds 'Solaris' packages, a common set of core libs and binaries should exist amongest all distro to be called Indiana-compatible or whatever. Kinda like Nvidia has a reference graphics board it might send people for review of their GPUs or graphic cards. Their OEMs then go off and may modify the graphic card to their liking or jack up the clock speed. They sell us an Nvidia-based graphic card at the end of the day, but either it has a few extras or maybe just a bare bones card. To the common consumer, they may not know much of the difference or really care - as long as it is an Nvidia card as it says on the box and works with Nvidia drivers (and their games/demos...). I think of this Indiana project kinda the same way now... ~Ken Mays __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, ken mays wrote: There's your example of harm; Jon Trulson would be supporting only the reference distribution and not the other distros. This can be expected to hold true for others. [1] Ceri [1] This can, of course, be seen to be a good thing for ISVs, but that's not the question which was one of harm to other distros. [...strange reply-quoting snipped...] Actually, this goes against what we discussed at the OpenSolaris Developer Summit. If you don't have a common consistency amongest OpenSolaris distros then we are just setting up a main point of failure to support and maintenance efforts. We made a point that the distros should have a minimum reference standard at the least. If an ISV goes off and builds 'Solaris' packages, a common set of core libs and binaries should exist amongest all distro to be called Indiana-compatible or whatever. Yes, please. Kinda like Nvidia has a reference graphics board it might send people for review of their GPUs or graphic cards. Their OEMs then go off and may modify the graphic card to their liking or jack up the clock speed. They sell us an Nvidia-based graphic card at the end of the day, but either it has a few extras or maybe just a bare bones card. To the common consumer, they may not know much of the difference or really care - as long as it is an Nvidia card as it says on the box and works with Nvidia drivers (and their games/demos...). Actually, just look at it from their driver development perpective. Do you think they (and perhaps Sun) can support the nvidia driver on a bunch of incompatible Solaris dists? Do you think they would even try? I imagine all of you out there with nvidia chipsets are going to use the Solaris dist(s) that Nvidia's drivers work on, regardless of it's name and 'branding'. Right? So some sort of reference is already required, isn't it? [...] ~Ken Mays -- Happy cheese in fear | Jon Trulson against oppressor, rebel!| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Brocolli, hostage. -Unknown| #include std/disclaimer.h ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Marty Duey wrote: On 10/31/2007 2:42 PM, Ceri Davies wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 12:08:12PM -0600, Jon Trulson wrote: On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Joerg Schilling wrote: Shawn Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] There's your example of harm; Jon Trulson would be supporting only the reference distribution and not the other distros. This can be expected to hold true for others. [1] Ceri [1] This can, of course, be seen to be a good thing for ISVs, but that's not the question which was one of harm to other distros. I think you're reaching. As has been stated numerous times throughout the thread today, what end users decide to run as their OpenSolaris-based distro will determine which distro(s) an ISV has to support. On the other hand, if ISVs like Jon qualify a reference distribution then ti should be easier to offer support to derivative distros as well. Certainly easier than is the case in Linux-land today. Exactly. Marty -- Happy cheese in fear | Jon Trulson against oppressor, rebel!| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Brocolli, hostage. -Unknown| #include std/disclaimer.h ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Jim Grisanzio wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called: Sun OpenSolaris Why would Sun OpenSolaris make sense? Actually, that expression has been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use of the brand? Jim It is the same as with all (super-)classes of objects, versus their derived sub-classes, or even _instances_ of objects of the corresponding classes. Shouldn't you normally strive to strictly avoid referencing an instance versus the actual class in the same (identical) manner? Renaming Indiana to OpenSolaris: Wouldn't that be like renaming the brand Crysler to Automibile? IMO a Crysler is not equal to Automobile. It would be a subclass of it (with more nested subclasses and then n-millions of instances/leaf nodes). Renaming Indiana to Sun OpenSolaris would make much more sense to me, because that's just what it is (independently from how it may or may not be called at the end of the day). Yes, this has been discussed iteratively (in fact rather recursively). And not much progress has been made in terms of (binding) community findings. Prepared for cycling through it another time ... Martin ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 31/10/2007, Martin Bochnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Shawn Walker wrote: On 31/10/2007, Martin Bochnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim Grisanzio wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called: Sun OpenSolaris Why would Sun OpenSolaris make sense? Actually, that expression has been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use of the brand? Jim It is the same as with all (super-)classes of objects, versus their derived sub-classes, or even _instances_ of objects of the corresponding classes. Shouldn't you normally strive to strictly avoid referencing an instance versus the actual class in the same (identical) manner? Renaming Indiana to OpenSolaris: Wouldn't that be like renaming the brand Crysler to Automibile? IMO a Crysler is not equal to Automobile. It would be a subclass of it (with more nested subclasses and then n-millions of instances/leaf nodes). Renaming Indiana to Sun OpenSolaris would make much more sense to me, because that's just what it is (independently from how it may or may not be called at the end of the day). Sorry, but that would not be true. Indiana is the result of work from more than just Sun folks. It includes ksh93 for example, and it includes efforts by other non-Sun affiliated folks as well. Calling it Sun OpenSolaris would be inaccurate. Making boolean algebra derived assumptions based on that argument leads me to the following system of statements: As BeleniX is called BeleniX, it doesn't contain anything that has been developed by people outside of the BeleniX community. As SchilliX is called SchilliX, it doesn't contain anything that has been developed by people outside of the SchilliX community. As Nextenda is called Nextenda, it doesn't contain anything that has been developed by people outside of the Nextenda community. As MartUX is called MartUX, it doesn't contain anything that has been developed by people outside of the MartUX community. Does that make sense? No, and it wouldn't be true and it isn't what I was saying either. All I was stating is that putting Sun in the front of the distro name is neither necessary or accurate. While it is true that ptuting Sun in front of the distro name does not necessarily indicate that only Sun worked on it, I have yet to see a qualified reason for doing so other than insinuations by some that such should be done to distance it from the community. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics are not in our favor... --Larry Wall ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
On 31/10/2007, Martin Bochnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim Grisanzio wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called: Sun OpenSolaris Why would Sun OpenSolaris make sense? Actually, that expression has been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use of the brand? Jim It is the same as with all (super-)classes of objects, versus their derived sub-classes, or even _instances_ of objects of the corresponding classes. Shouldn't you normally strive to strictly avoid referencing an instance versus the actual class in the same (identical) manner? Renaming Indiana to OpenSolaris: Wouldn't that be like renaming the brand Crysler to Automibile? IMO a Crysler is not equal to Automobile. It would be a subclass of it (with more nested subclasses and then n-millions of instances/leaf nodes). Renaming Indiana to Sun OpenSolaris would make much more sense to me, because that's just what it is (independently from how it may or may not be called at the end of the day). Sorry, but that would not be true. Indiana is the result of work from more than just Sun folks. It includes ksh93 for example, and it includes efforts by other non-Sun affiliated folks as well. Calling it Sun OpenSolaris would be inaccurate. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ We don't have enough parallel universes to allow all uses of all junction types--in the absence of quantum computing the combinatorics are not in our favor... --Larry Wall ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Shawn Walker wrote: On 31/10/2007, Martin Bochnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim Grisanzio wrote: Joerg Schilling wrote: I have no problem if Sun would start to publish something called: Sun OpenSolaris Why would Sun OpenSolaris make sense? Actually, that expression has been used (incorrectly) in the media, and it's only added to the confusion. Also, isn't it a benefit for the distros to share in the use of the brand? Jim It is the same as with all (super-)classes of objects, versus their derived sub-classes, or even _instances_ of objects of the corresponding classes. Shouldn't you normally strive to strictly avoid referencing an instance versus the actual class in the same (identical) manner? Renaming Indiana to OpenSolaris: Wouldn't that be like renaming the brand Crysler to Automibile? IMO a Crysler is not equal to Automobile. It would be a subclass of it (with more nested subclasses and then n-millions of instances/leaf nodes). Renaming Indiana to Sun OpenSolaris would make much more sense to me, because that's just what it is (independently from how it may or may not be called at the end of the day). Sorry, but that would not be true. Indiana is the result of work from more than just Sun folks. It includes ksh93 for example, and it includes efforts by other non-Sun affiliated folks as well. Calling it Sun OpenSolaris would be inaccurate. Making boolean algebra derived assumptions based on that argument leads me to the following system of statements: As BeleniX is called BeleniX, it doesn't contain anything that has been developed by people outside of the BeleniX community. As SchilliX is called SchilliX, it doesn't contain anything that has been developed by people outside of the SchilliX community. As Nextenda is called Nextenda, it doesn't contain anything that has been developed by people outside of the Nextenda community. As MartUX is called MartUX, it doesn't contain anything that has been developed by people outside of the MartUX community. Does that make sense? -- Best regards, Martin Bochnig http://www.martux.org/marTux___OSDevCon2007.pdf http://opensolaris.org/os/project/fox/ http://www.genunix.org/wiki/index.php/OpenSolaris_Summit ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Gotta love a good car analogy! John Plocher wrote: Martin Bochnig wrote: Renaming Indiana to OpenSolaris: Wouldn't that be like renaming the brand Crysler to Automibile? IMO a Crysler is not equal to Automobile. It would be a subclass of it (with more nested subclasses and then n-millions of instances/leaf nodes). I think you have it - exactly. This is like calling the automobiles built in the BMW Factory BMWs. This is the OpenSolaris Community. We construct a distro out of the various source code parts that are manufactured in our community. It is natural that the thing we produce somehow carries our name. The alternative is that we are simply a parts supplier for other automobile companies. The Linux Distro Hell is flawed, IMO, because it sees itself as a community of parts suppliers rather than as a producer of cars. This may be good for those who love building their own vehicles, but sucks rather large rocks if you just want something reliable to get you to work every day. I can understand why boutique hand-assembled auto manufacturers might not like to see BMW enter the market... -John ___ trademark-policy-dev mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/trademark-policy-dev ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [trademark-policy-dev] [advocacy-discuss] Project Indiana and the OpenSolaris name
Sara Dornsife wrote: Gotta love a good car analogy! :-) ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
