RE: Oracle License for Training
Title: RE: Oracle License for Training For me the question is not If? but When? Any prognostications? -Original Message- From: Cary Millsap [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 9:54 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Oracle License for Training Mark my words, it will happen. ...The MySQL part, not the outsourcing part. :) Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - RMOUG Training Days 2003, Mar 5-6 Denver - Hotsos Clinic 101, Mar 25-27 London -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 11:59 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L If MySql continues as planned, I think Oracle will find it a force to be reckoned with, much as MS has discovered to be true about Linux. Of course by that time, according to the latest IT business intelligence as seen in Computer World, most of our jobs will have been outsourced by then, and it wont' matter much. Jared Weiss, Rick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/11/2003 03:04 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: RE: Oracle License for Training A question for the DBA Gods on this list: Is it worth the time/effort to download MySQL and learn it? Is there going to be a viable (meaning $$) market for the product in the future? Or should I leave all the egg$ in the Oracle basket? Musing for fun and profit. Rick Weiss -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:34 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L MS SQL costing less than Oracle is only partly true. If you load up MS with the extras that constitute a std feature set on Oracle, Oracle is very competitive. Been lots of comparisons on that. Now PostgreSQL and MySQL, those *are* less expensize than MS SQL and Oracle. :) Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Weiss, Rick INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Oracle License for Training
Whoever is going to help do it, please make sure it has a really good wait interface from the beginning :). Orr, Steve wrote: RE: Oracle License for Training For me the question is not "If?" but "When?" Any prognostications? -Original Message- From: Cary Millsap [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 9:54 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: Oracle License for Training Mark my words, it will happen. ...The MySQL part, not the outsourcing part. :) Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - RMOUG Training Days 2003, Mar 5-6 Denver - Hotsos Clinic 101, Mar 25-27 London -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 11:59 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L If MySql continues as planned, I think Oracle will find it a force to be reckoned with, much as MS has discovered to be true about Linux. Of course by that time, according to the latest IT business intelligence as seen in Computer World, most of our jobs will have been outsourced by then, and it wont' matter much. Jared "Weiss, Rick" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/11/2003 03:04 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: RE: Oracle License for Training A question for the DBA Gods on this list: Is it worth the time/effort to download MySQL and learn it? Is there going to be a viable (meaning $$) market for the product in the future? Or should I leave all the egg$ in the Oracle basket? Musing for fun and profit. Rick Weiss -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:34 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L MS SQL costing less than Oracle is only partly true. If you load up MS with the extras that constitute a std feature set on Oracle, Oracle is very competitive. Been lots of comparisons on that. Now PostgreSQL and MySQL, those *are* less expensize than MS SQL and Oracle. :) Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Weiss, Rick INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Oracle License for Training
It never hurts to diversify your skills. As everyone on this list will tell you MySQL is no where near on equal footing with Oracle. However, it is used in A LOT of small shops in the Linux/Apache/PHP/MySQL combination. Keeping your options open and current is always a good idea. Rodd Holman On Tue, 2003-02-11 at 17:04, Weiss, Rick wrote: A question for the DBA Gods on this list: Is it worth the time/effort to download MySQL and learn it? Is there going to be a viable (meaning $$) market for the product in the future? Or should I leave all the egg$ in the Oracle basket? Musing for fun and profit. Rick Weiss -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:34 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L MS SQL costing less than Oracle is only partly true. If you load up MS with the extras that constitute a std feature set on Oracle, Oracle is very competitive. Been lots of comparisons on that. Now PostgreSQL and MySQL, those *are* less expensize than MS SQL and Oracle. :) Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Rodd Holman [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Rodd Holman INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle License for Training
Rick - I agree that it can't hurt. Looking at another database can even give you a fresh perspective on Oracle. Some assignments involve converting an application from MySQL to Oracle. The critical question in my mind is whether you see yourself as more of a development DBA or a production DBA? I could see many more opportunities for a development DBA to be involved with MySQL than a production DBA. Hopefully this won't restart the discussion of what constitutes each. Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 5:04 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L A question for the DBA Gods on this list: Is it worth the time/effort to download MySQL and learn it? Is there going to be a viable (meaning $$) market for the product in the future? Or should I leave all the egg$ in the Oracle basket? Musing for fun and profit. Rick Weiss -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:34 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L MS SQL costing less than Oracle is only partly true. If you load up MS with the extras that constitute a std feature set on Oracle, Oracle is very competitive. Been lots of comparisons on that. Now PostgreSQL and MySQL, those *are* less expensize than MS SQL and Oracle. :) Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Weiss, Rick INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle License for Training
If MySql continues as planned, I think Oracle will find it a force to be reckoned with, much as MS has discovered to be true about Linux. Of course by that time, according to the latest IT business intelligence as seen in Computer World, most of our jobs will have been outsourced by then, and it wont' matter much. Jared Weiss, Rick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/11/2003 03:04 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: Oracle License for Training A question for the DBA Gods on this list: Is it worth the time/effort to download MySQL and learn it? Is there going to be a viable (meaning $$) market for the product in the future? Or should I leave all the egg$ in the Oracle basket? Musing for fun and profit. Rick Weiss -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:34 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L MS SQL costing less than Oracle is only partly true. If you load up MS with the extras that constitute a std feature set on Oracle, Oracle is very competitive. Been lots of comparisons on that. Now PostgreSQL and MySQL, those *are* less expensize than MS SQL and Oracle. :) Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Weiss, Rick INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle License for Training
Mark my words, it will happen. ...The MySQL part, not the outsourcing part. :) Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - RMOUG Training Days 2003, Mar 5-6 Denver - Hotsos Clinic 101, Mar 25-27 London -Original Message- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 11:59 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L If MySql continues as planned, I think Oracle will find it a force to be reckoned with, much as MS has discovered to be true about Linux. Of course by that time, according to the latest IT business intelligence as seen in Computer World, most of our jobs will have been outsourced by then, and it wont' matter much. Jared Weiss, Rick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/11/2003 03:04 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: Oracle License for Training A question for the DBA Gods on this list: Is it worth the time/effort to download MySQL and learn it? Is there going to be a viable (meaning $$) market for the product in the future? Or should I leave all the egg$ in the Oracle basket? Musing for fun and profit. Rick Weiss -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:34 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L MS SQL costing less than Oracle is only partly true. If you load up MS with the extras that constitute a std feature set on Oracle, Oracle is very competitive. Been lots of comparisons on that. Now PostgreSQL and MySQL, those *are* less expensize than MS SQL and Oracle. :) Jared -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Weiss, Rick INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Oracle License for Training
The business models for Education partners are a little different: Microsoft will let you pay some fixed amout per year - and they require you to be certified instructors - and then you can keep whatever you make from teaching those classes. Oracle will let you pay pretty much the same fixed amount per year - and they probably require that two people are certified or something - but then you also have to pay for each seat you sell in the class room. In other words: You have to pay for the training materials for each student, and it typically costs you half of the total amount you can charge the students. That's what make most Education partners close down sooner or later. It's just not possible to make good money on this. Oh, and depending on this or that, you have to buy the course ware 14 days before the class from Oracle and it's not possible to send it back if a student didn't show up, so the Education partners I've talked to all had shelves with stuff they couldn't return to Oracle and couldn't sell to students because it became outdated. It's all stupid, because Oracle ends up sub-optimising their future with this policy. But Oracle Education optimizes their revenue in the short run. Mogens DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: Richard - How do you think the Oracle Education division would react to this proposal? ;-) Never underestimate the power of corporate politics. But seriously a large organization succeeds to the extent that it can look at the long-term good of the organization. Overall I think Oracle Corp. has a pretty good track record in this respect, and that has contributed to its excellent growth. Who knows, maybe Oracle will consider your idea. It seems that Microsoft has a different business model for education. I don't think Microsoft teaches any classes directly, but just certifies training organizations and instructors. Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 10:44 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I totally agree. I alway thought Oracle should just give it away to class rooms. The more people knows Oracle, they will want to use it at their work. At a small, mid size company is often the tech guy who will have a big saying over what technology to use. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 11:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L This sounds like Oracle is pricing/licensing itself out of the market. This is not good because I see a lot of new student with MS SQL skills and no Oracle skills. Guess what, they will want to work with MS SQL when they finally start working. Some of these grads will become bosses one day and they will prefer what they know. When will these people learn? IBM priced OS/2 out of the market. Sun priced Solaris out of the Intel market (until recently, but it's too late). Oracle is going soon if they continue to do this. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Oracle License for Training
I always wake up when somebody uses the words "every effort". Probably because English is not my first language. Maybe not. I'm not sure what legitimate education institutions are with respect to Oracle education :). I've seen Oracle taught at universities, and it's not necessarily as impressive as Oracle taught by an experienced consultant in a small outfit somewhere :). But who cares? The point is (in my opinion) that that sort of Academic Initiative is done by all major vendors, including Microsoft and Oracle, but that Microsoft has a much, much better model for letting partners make money on training than Oracle has. The market, being rather effecient with the economic stuff in the longer term, reacts accordingly, and that will hurt Oracle in the years to come. We all want Oracle to succeed. We all want many new DBA's and developers out there. But currently they're being trained on mySQL and SQL Server. Try to guess what that means for the future of databases. Mogens Ora NT DBA wrote: Hi All, This conversation didn't start out in dealing with educational institutions, it started out as a group that wants to use it to make money. Oracle is making every effort to work with legitimate education institutions. The Oracle Academic Initiative does exactly what you describe. Institutions pay a small fee (500.00 I think) they are have access to ALL Oracle Software for use in instruction. They also have access to Oracle University Curriculum if desired. more information can be found at: http://oai.oracle.com Regards, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Richard - How do you think the Oracle Education division would react to this proposal? ;-) Never underestimate the power of corporate politics. But seriously a large organization succeeds to the extent that it can look at the long-term good of the organization. Overall I think Oracle Corp. has a pretty good track record in this respect, and that has contributed to its excellent growth. Who knows, maybe Oracle will consider your idea. It seems that Microsoft has a different business model for education. I don't think Microsoft teaches any classes directly, but just certifies training organizations and instructors. The point here is to allow people easier access to Oracle knowledge, through courses you can pick up at your local community college. What Oracle is doing right now is stifling this.
Re: Oracle License for Training
Probably true, Jared. But financial guys and managers look at this simple overview: EE (Oracle): $40K per CPU EE (DB2): $20K per CPU EE (MS): $20K per CPU And they might quickly get confused by all sorts of points of views and technical discussions and simply ask: Well, is EE (DB2) or EE (MS) good enough for this project? Because they're only half the price... Mogens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MS SQL costing less than Oracle is only partly true. If you load up MS with the extras that constitute a std feature set on Oracle, Oracle is very competitive. Been lots of comparisons on that. Now PostgreSQL and MySQL, those *are* less expensize than MS SQL and Oracle. :) Jared Lyndon Tiu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/11/2003 12:14 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: Oracle License for Training Quoting Ora NT DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi All, This conversation didn't start out in dealing with educational institutions, it started out as a group that wants to use it to make money. Oracle is making every effort to work with legitimate education institutions. The Oracle Academic Initiative does exactly what you describe. Institutions pay a small fee (500.00 I think) they are have access to ALL Oracle Software for use in instruction. They also have access to Oracle University Curriculum if desired. more information can be found at: http://oai.oracle.com Sounds good. It's not that expensive! I wonder if Oracle instructors cost more than MS SQL instructors that's why most schools (where I am)offer MS SQL?
RE: Oracle License for Training
I guess if I was going to download and learn another database it would probably be PostgreSQL http://www.postgresql.org/ it seems to be a bit more in the enterprise level of databases in comparison to MySQL but I have not been following MySQL development for some time so perhaps things are coming along. - Ethan -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 5:04 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L A question for the DBA Gods on this list: Is it worth the time/effort to download MySQL and learn it? Is there going to be a viable (meaning $$) market for the product in the future? Or should I leave all the egg$ in the Oracle basket? Musing for fun and profit. Rick Weiss -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Post, Ethan INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Oracle License for Training
On Wednesday 12 February 2003 09:58 pm, Post, Ethan wrote: I guess if I was going to download and learn another database it would probably be PostgreSQL http://www.postgresql.org/ it seems to be a bit more in the enterprise level of databases in comparison to MySQL but I have not been following MySQL development for some time so perhaps things are coming along. PostGreSQL is definitely worth to learn if you have a free weekend for hacking. It's pretty much all you need for most jobs. Best of all, it's free! as in free beer. -- Lyndon Tiu -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Lyndon Tiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Oracle License for Training
Maria, Here's something you may want to consider with this licensing. If it comes to blow$ with Oracle, and you do have to pay, go for the standard edition not the enterprise edition. It is much cheaper on a named user basis. Cost is in hundreds per user vs. thousands per user. You could accomplish normal SQL, PL/SQL, backup and recovery, basic DBA, and architecture with this version. The only hitch would be if you were planning to train any EE specific items. Rodd Holman On Tue, 2003-02-11 at 01:33, Maria Aurora VT de la Vega wrote: Hello Mogens, I really got interested with your reply. You seem to know a lot about how Oracle works with their licenses. Is this information just your opinion or you know it for a fact? I'd really appreciate if you could give your legal opinion, about what we plan to do. For starters, we plan to offer on-site trainings. I would be using Oracle software on my laptop. And maybe have the trainees install Oracle software on each of their PC's. I may or may not provide them the software. In any case, we would need at least one Oracle installation available for demos and hands on exercises. Eventually, we will be offering training for individual clients. Once we get the money to set up a place and get machines. But when we do, I am sure we still cannot afford to buy full use licenses for Oracle on those machines. We plan to make everything legit, including business registration, taxes, contracts with clients etc. Do you think we would have problems with Oracle with our use of downloaded software on a laptop for trainings? Why do you think that the licensing terms (for training) would not hold up in court? Is this loophole based on an international law or agreement or something? I really appreciate this information you are sharing. Thank you very much. =) Mogens Nrgaard wrote: When Klaus Andersen (the guy who hired me into Oracle Denmark in 1990, and now is Managing Director of Microsoft Denmark) was head of Oracle Education world-wide he put into the standard license terms that you cannot use Oracle software for training of 3rd parties. Klaus is a very smart guy. I think he knew back then that those sort of conditions would never hold up in court - but it kept a lot of competitors out of the arena for many years because they were afraid of big, bad Oracle Legal. Combine that with the fact that Oracle Education's terms for partners are much worse than Microsoft's, and you get the idea: Oracle want to keep competition out. That doesn't hold up very well in courts around the globe. If you challenge this foolish provision (or rather: If Oracle really dares take you to court over it) I don't think you have to worry. In fact I think I know you don't have to worry :-). Yes, doing on-site training is a workaround. So is doing seminars with demo's on your laptop. But if you have valid licenses and want to teach various people in your garage, I don't think they can do anything about it. Do I sound like a guy who's spent some time on this topic? Yep. :-). You're most welcome to call me (consider the time - I'm on Central European Time) on +45 2527 7100 if you have any questions. Best regards, Mogens Maria Aurora VT de la Vega wrote: A couple of friends and I are thinking of putting up a small training company here in the Phils. (When we say small...its really small with almost 0 capitalization...just sheer guts and technical knowhow) We have looked at OTN and checked the licensing terms for the use of the software for training. We have stumbled on this provision: You may not: use the programs to provide third party training; I was wondering if any of you know if there is a different licensing for training institutions? How does a non-oracle partner acquire license to use Oracle DB software for training? I am looking at partnering with Oracle, but we are just starting and partnering costs $$. I dare not call Oracle Philippines just yet...If there is a need to purchase, and if we have the money, only then will we contact them. Thanks. =) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Maria Aurora VT de la Vega Oracle DBA Philippine Stock Exchange, Inc. Failure is only postponed success as long as courage 'coaches' ambition. The habit of persistence is the habit of victory.
Re: Oracle License for Training
This sounds like Oracle is pricing/licensing itself out of the market. This is not good because I see a lot of new student with MS SQL skills and no Oracle skills. Guess what, they will want to work with MS SQL when they finally start working. Some of these grads will become bosses one day and they will prefer what they know. When will these people learn? IBM priced OS/2 out of the market. Sun priced Solaris out of the Intel market (until recently, but it's too late). Oracle is going soon if they continue to do this. -- Lyndon Tiu -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Lyndon Tiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle License for Training
I totally agree. I alway thought Oracle should just give it away to class rooms. The more people knows Oracle, they will want to use it at their work. At a small, mid size company is often the tech guy who will have a big saying over what technology to use. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 11:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L This sounds like Oracle is pricing/licensing itself out of the market. This is not good because I see a lot of new student with MS SQL skills and no Oracle skills. Guess what, they will want to work with MS SQL when they finally start working. Some of these grads will become bosses one day and they will prefer what they know. When will these people learn? IBM priced OS/2 out of the market. Sun priced Solaris out of the Intel market (until recently, but it's too late). Oracle is going soon if they continue to do this. -- Lyndon Tiu -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Lyndon Tiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Richard Ji INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle License for Training
Quoting Richard Ji [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I totally agree. I alway thought Oracle should just give it away to class rooms. The more people knows Oracle, they will want to use it at their work. At a small, mid size company is often the tech guy who will have a big saying over what technology to use. But of course, Oracle does not know this. They are sitting on their laurels thinking they are THE Database. They will lose the lower end of the market and get pushed upmarket till there is no more room to go. -- Lyndon Tiu -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Lyndon Tiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle License for Training
Richard - How do you think the Oracle Education division would react to this proposal? ;-) Never underestimate the power of corporate politics. But seriously a large organization succeeds to the extent that it can look at the long-term good of the organization. Overall I think Oracle Corp. has a pretty good track record in this respect, and that has contributed to its excellent growth. Who knows, maybe Oracle will consider your idea. It seems that Microsoft has a different business model for education. I don't think Microsoft teaches any classes directly, but just certifies training organizations and instructors. Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 10:44 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L I totally agree. I alway thought Oracle should just give it away to class rooms. The more people knows Oracle, they will want to use it at their work. At a small, mid size company is often the tech guy who will have a big saying over what technology to use. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 11:09 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L This sounds like Oracle is pricing/licensing itself out of the market. This is not good because I see a lot of new student with MS SQL skills and no Oracle skills. Guess what, they will want to work with MS SQL when they finally start working. Some of these grads will become bosses one day and they will prefer what they know. When will these people learn? IBM priced OS/2 out of the market. Sun priced Solaris out of the Intel market (until recently, but it's too late). Oracle is going soon if they continue to do this. -- Lyndon Tiu -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Lyndon Tiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Richard Ji INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle License for Training
I have to manage MySQL and ORACLE for the web likewise. There seems to be a strong tendency towards MySQL if people newly enter the area of webpresence, students or profs doesn't make a difference. PLEASE spare me the pain: I *DO* know the differences between ORACLE and MySQL. (... at least some of them) It was just a remark about tendencies. Apologies for any typing mistakes I failed to notice. Markus Reger Oracle Applications DBA Webmaster MBC University for Music and Performing Art Vienna [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/11/03 18:55 PM Quoting Richard Ji [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I totally agree. I alway thought Oracle should just give it away to class rooms. The more people knows Oracle, they will want to use it at their work. At a small, mid size company is often the tech guy who will have a big saying over what technology to use. But of course, Oracle does not know this. They are sitting on their laurels thinking they are THE Database. They will lose the lower end of the market and get pushed upmarket till there is no more room to go. -- Lyndon Tiu -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Lyndon Tiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Markus Reger INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle License for Training
Quoting Markus Reger [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have to manage MySQL and ORACLE for the web likewise. There seems to be a strong tendency towards MySQL if people newly enter the area of webpresence, students or profs doesn't make a difference. For web work. MySQL is very popular (Together with PHP). For everything else, Access is usually the intro if developing dektop apps. MS SQL if the intro is a bit higher end (non-desktop applications). DB2 is also an intro in some schools. You never see Oracle as the intro DB in any school (a real school as in University, College, High School not those $$$ making diploma mills). -- Lyndon Tiu -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Lyndon Tiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle License for Training
Quoting DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Richard - How do you think the Oracle Education division would react to this proposal? ;-) Never underestimate the power of corporate politics. But seriously a large organization succeeds to the extent that it can look at the long-term good of the organization. Overall I think Oracle Corp. has a pretty good track record in this respect, and that has contributed to its excellent growth. Who knows, maybe Oracle will consider your idea. It seems that Microsoft has a different business model for education. I don't think Microsoft teaches any classes directly, but just certifies training organizations and instructors. The point here is to allow people easier access to Oracle knowledge, through courses you can pick up at your local community college. What Oracle is doing right now is stifling this. -- Lyndon Tiu -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Lyndon Tiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Oracle License for Training
Oracle makes money there too. I teach Oracle classes at a community college. They pay a fee to Oracle and use the same books, powerpoint slides, etc. It's the exact same class, just taught by someone other than Oracle. It's amazing that more people don't take these classes instead of through Oracle education. They are significantly cheaper. But, they are mainly night classes, so maybe most businesses don't like that. Keith The point here is to allow people easier access to Oracle knowledge, through courses you can pick up at your local community college. What Oracle is doing right now is stifling this. -- Lyndon Tiu The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that your access is unauthorized, and any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message including any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
Re: Oracle License for Training
Hi All, This conversation didn't start out in dealing with educational institutions, it started out as a group that wants to use it to make money. Oracle is making every effort to work with legitimate education institutions. The Oracle Academic Initiative does exactly what you describe. Institutions pay a small fee (500.00 I think) they are have access to ALL Oracle Software for use in instruction. They also have access to Oracle University Curriculum if desired. more information can be found at: http://oai.oracle.com Regards, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting DENNIS WILLIAMS [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Richard - How do you think the Oracle Education division would react to this proposal? ;-) Never underestimate the power of corporate politics. But seriously a large organization succeeds to the extent that it can look at the long-term good of the organization. Overall I think Oracle Corp. has a pretty good track record in this respect, and that has contributed to its excellent growth. Who knows, maybe Oracle will consider your idea. It seems that Microsoft has a different business model for education. I don't think Microsoft teaches any classes directly, but just certifies training organizations and instructors. The point here is to allow people easier access to Oracle knowledge, through courses you can pick up at your local community college. What Oracle is doing right now is stifling this.
Re: Oracle License for Training
You are WRONG! The Oracle Academic Initiative has 100's of members. In California there are more than 200. John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Markus Reger [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have to manage MySQL and ORACLE for the web likewise. There seems to be a strong tendency towards MySQL if people newly enter the area of webpresence, students or profs doesn't make a difference. For web work. MySQL is very popular (Together with PHP). For everything else, Access is usually the intro if developing dektop apps. MS SQL if the intro is a bit higher end (non-desktop applications). DB2 is also an intro in some schools. You never see Oracle as the intro DB in any school (a real school as in University, College, High School not those $$$ making diploma mills).
Re: Oracle License for Training
Quoting Keith Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Oracle makes money there too. I teach Oracle classes at a community college. They pay a fee to Oracle and use the same books, powerpoint slides, etc. It's the exact same class, just taught by someone other than Oracle. It's amazing that more people don't take these classes instead of through Oracle education. They are significantly cheaper. But, they are mainly night classes, so maybe most businesses don't like that. Good news to me, although I would say ain't enough of this because I can't seem to find one where I live. All I see are MS SQL classes all over the place. The school where I graduated from offers MS SQL. I ask them about Oracle and they gave me an answer - We teach SQL using MS SQL.. -- Lyndon Tiu -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Lyndon Tiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Oracle License for Training
Quoting Ora NT DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi All, This conversation didn't start out in dealing with educational institutions, it started out as a group that wants to use it to make money. Oracle is making every effort to work with legitimate education institutions. The Oracle Academic Initiative does exactly what you describe. Institutions pay a small fee (500.00 I think) they are have access to ALL Oracle Software for use in instruction. They also have access to Oracle University Curriculum if desired. more information can be found at: http://oai.oracle.com Sounds good. It's not that expensive! I wonder if Oracle instructors cost more than MS SQL instructors that's why most schools (where I am)offer MS SQL? -- Lyndon Tiu -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Lyndon Tiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle License for Training
Lyndon - Lost cause. Everybody is already teaching a lot of Microsoft products. But Oracle benefits because there is a cachet from being the high-end product. Cray Computer was good at exploiting that. Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 2:14 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Quoting Ora NT DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi All, This conversation didn't start out in dealing with educational institutions, it started out as a group that wants to use it to make money. Oracle is making every effort to work with legitimate education institutions. The Oracle Academic Initiative does exactly what you describe. Institutions pay a small fee (500.00 I think) they are have access to ALL Oracle Software for use in instruction. They also have access to Oracle University Curriculum if desired. more information can be found at: http://oai.oracle.com Sounds good. It's not that expensive! I wonder if Oracle instructors cost more than MS SQL instructors that's why most schools (where I am)offer MS SQL? -- Lyndon Tiu -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Lyndon Tiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle License for Training
The Madison (Wisconsin) Area Technical College has several Oracle classes available. Some of them are in their CIS-Certificate in Oracle Database Administration Associate Curriculum. -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 2:44 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L All I can speak for are the schools in my area (Dallas, TX). A few of the community colleges teach Oracle and SMU teaches it, but in each case, it is continuing education, not part of a Computer science degree. It's the same class as at Oracle education, i.e. no grades, not tests, everyone passes that shows up. But then, I'm not sure a degree in Computer science should target a particular vendors product. Keith - Original Message - To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 1:55 PM You are WRONG! The Oracle Academic Initiative has 100's of members. In California there are more than 200. John [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Markus Reger mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have to manage MySQL and ORACLE for the web likewise. There seems to be a strong tendency towards MySQL if people newly enter the area of webpresence, students or profs doesn't make a difference. For web work. MySQL is very popular (Together with PHP). For everything else, Access is usually the intro if developing dektop apps. MS SQL if the intro is a bit higher end (non-desktop applications). DB2 is also an intro in some schools. You never see Oracle as the intro DB in any school (a real school as in University, College, High School not those $$$ making diploma mills). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Schilling, Ben INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Oracle License for Training
Quoting Ora NT DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You are WRONG! The Oracle Academic Initiative has 100's of members. In California there are more than 200. I should move to Californiaa. -- Lyndon Tiu -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Lyndon Tiu INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Oracle License for Training
MS SQL costing less than Oracle is only partly true. If you load up MS with the extras that constitute a std feature set on Oracle, Oracle is very competitive. Been lots of comparisons on that. Now PostgreSQL and MySQL, those *are* less expensize than MS SQL and Oracle. :) Jared Lyndon Tiu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/11/2003 12:14 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: Oracle License for Training Quoting Ora NT DBA [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi All, This conversation didn't start out in dealing with educational institutions, it started out as a group that wants to use it to make money. Oracle is making every effort to work with legitimate education institutions. The Oracle Academic Initiative does exactly what you describe. Institutions pay a small fee (500.00 I think) they are have access to ALL Oracle Software for use in instruction. They also have access to Oracle University Curriculum if desired. more information can be found at: http://oai.oracle.com Sounds good. It's not that expensive! I wonder if Oracle instructors cost more than MS SQL instructors that's why most schools (where I am)offer MS SQL? -- Lyndon Tiu -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Oracle License for Training
Hello Mogens, I really got interested with your reply. You seem to know a lot about how Oracle works with their licenses. Is this information just your opinion or you know it for a fact? I'd really appreciate if you could give your legal opinion, about what we plan to do. For starters, we plan to offer on-site trainings. I would be using Oracle software on my laptop. And maybe have the trainees install Oracle software on each of their PC's. I may or may not provide them the software. In any case, we would need at least one Oracle installation available for demos and hands on exercises. Eventually, we will be offering training for individual clients. Once we get the money to set up a place and get machines. But when we do, I am sure we still cannot afford to buy full use licenses for Oracle on those machines. We plan to make everything legit, including business registration, taxes, contracts with clients etc. Do you think we would have problems with Oracle with our use of downloaded software on a laptop for trainings? Why do you think that the licensing terms (for training) would not hold up in court? Is this loophole based on an international law or agreement or something? I really appreciate this information you are sharing. Thank you very much. =) Mogens Nørgaard wrote: When Klaus Andersen (the guy who hired me into Oracle Denmark in 1990, and now is Managing Director of Microsoft Denmark) was head of Oracle Education world-wide he put into the standard license terms that you cannot use Oracle software for training of 3rd parties. Klaus is a very smart guy. I think he knew back then that those sort of conditions would never hold up in court - but it kept a lot of competitors out of the arena for many years because they were afraid of big, bad Oracle Legal. Combine that with the fact that Oracle Education's terms for partners are much worse than Microsoft's, and you get the idea: Oracle want to keep competition out. That doesn't hold up very well in courts around the globe. If you challenge this foolish provision (or rather: If Oracle really dares take you to court over it) I don't think you have to worry. In fact I think I know you don't have to worry :-). Yes, doing on-site training is a workaround. So is doing seminars with demo's on your laptop. But if you have valid licenses and want to teach various people in your garage, I don't think they can do anything about it. Do I sound like a guy who's spent some time on this topic? Yep. :-). You're most welcome to call me (consider the time - I'm on Central European Time) on +45 2527 7100 if you have any questions. Best regards, Mogens Maria Aurora VT de la Vega wrote: A couple of friends and I are thinking of putting up a small training company here in the Phils. (When we say small...its really small with almost 0 capitalization...just sheer guts and technical knowhow) We have looked at OTN and checked the licensing terms for the use of the software for training. We have stumbled on this provision: You may not: ·use the programs to provide third party training; I was wondering if any of you know if there is a different licensing for training institutions? How does a non-oracle partner acquire license to use Oracle DB software for training? I am looking at partnering with Oracle, but we are just starting and partnering costs $$. I dare not call Oracle Philippines just yet...If there is a need to purchase, and if we have the money, only then will we contact them. Thanks. =) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Maria Aurora VT de la Vega Oracle DBA Philippine Stock Exchange, Inc. Failure is only postponed success as long as courage 'coaches' ambition. The habit of persistence is the habit of victory. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Maria Aurora VT de la Vega INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of
Re: Oracle License for Training
When Klaus Andersen (the guy who hired me into Oracle Denmark in 1990, and now is Managing Director of Microsoft Denmark) was head of Oracle Education world-wide he put into the standard license terms that you cannot use Oracle software for training of 3rd parties. Klaus is a very smart guy. I think he knew back then that those sort of conditions would never hold up in court - but it kept a lot of competitors out of the arena for many years because they were afraid of big, bad Oracle Legal. Combine that with the fact that Oracle Education's terms for partners are much worse than Microsoft's, and you get the idea: Oracle want to keep competition out. That doesn't hold up very well in courts around the globe. If you challenge this foolish provision (or rather: If Oracle really dares take you to court over it) I don't think you have to worry. In fact I think I know you don't have to worry :-). Yes, doing on-site training is a workaround. So is doing seminars with demo's on your laptop. But if you have valid licenses and want to teach various people in your garage, I don't think they can do anything about it. Do I sound like a guy who's spent some time on this topic? Yep. :-). You're most welcome to call me (consider the time - I'm on Central European Time) on +45 2527 7100 if you have any questions. Best regards, Mogens Maria Aurora VT de la Vega wrote: A couple of friends and I are thinking of putting up a small training company here in the Phils. (When we say small...its really small with almost 0 capitalization...just sheer guts and technical knowhow) We have looked at OTN and checked the licensing terms for the use of the software for training. We have stumbled on this provision: You may not: ·use the programs to provide third party training; I was wondering if any of you know if there is a different licensing for training institutions? How does a non-oracle partner acquire license to use Oracle DB software for training? I am looking at partnering with Oracle, but we are just starting and partnering costs $$. I dare not call Oracle Philippines just yet...If there is a need to purchase, and if we have the money, only then will we contact them. Thanks. =) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle License for Training
Maria - Actually, I would think the best time to contact Oracle sales is when you don't have money. Good sales people can smell money. ;-) Some software companies are very liberal about providing their product for development and training purposes. My impression has been that Oracle is NOT one of those companies. They are the top database company, so they realize you will need to interface with Oracle, so they are happy to have you buy Oracle licenses to develop a product. That is development. With training, it is worse because you are competing with Oracle, so there is even less incentive for Oracle to be cooperative. I'm assuming that Oracle Education provides training courses in your country. With some activities, you have the opportunity to keep quiet and hope Oracle doesn't notice what you are up to. But I'm sure you will be advertising your classes, so Oracle may notice your company and come check you out. These are just some random thoughts for you to consider. A better idea would be for you to contact other training facilities and see what they do for Oracle licensing. Even better, many participants on this list have been involved in providing training and may have insights they will share with you, either on this forum or privately -- How about it people? Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L A couple of friends and I are thinking of putting up a small training company here in the Phils. (When we say small...its really small with almost 0 capitalization...just sheer guts and technical knowhow) We have looked at OTN and checked the licensing terms for the use of the software for training. We have stumbled on this provision: You may not: ·use the programs to provide third party training; I was wondering if any of you know if there is a different licensing for training institutions? How does a non-oracle partner acquire license to use Oracle DB software for training? I am looking at partnering with Oracle, but we are just starting and partnering costs $$. I dare not call Oracle Philippines just yet...If there is a need to purchase, and if we have the money, only then will we contact them. Thanks. =) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Maria Aurora VT de la Vega INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle License for Training
Title: RE: Oracle License for Training From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Maria - Actually, I would think the best time to contact Oracle sales is when you don't have money. Good sales people can smell money. ;-) Heh. Some software companies are very liberal about providing their product for development and training purposes. My impression has been that Oracle is NOT one of those companies. Um, no. For development they can't be beat; the only thing I miss out on is Metalink, but my clients usually provide a (legal) access path for that. OTN is fantastic for developers. However, for training this statement is true. I ran into this in a big way when working for a smallish SW company. We developed a slick method of rolling out the product to a large-scale enterprise, partially using some proprietary Oracle objects (sequences, PL/SQL, etc). Oracle had no problem with this. The problem occurred, however, when we wanted to hold private classes to train our consultants and implementation partners on this method. We ended up having to buy licenses, and eventually moving the tool to a non-platform specific means.
Re: Oracle License for Training
Did you ever consider that your (prospective) trainig candidates get the (for testing purposes freely downloadable) oracle software themselves and install it themselves (or assisted by you) on a good (linux - one might hope ;-)) box and then you assist them by getting along with this? I think this means, that you would not provide the software yourself - this is done by your traning candidates. As I am neither a jurist nor a lawyer, so I hope this is not pure nonsense - especially regarding the license agreement on technet.oracle.com. Apologies for any typing mistakes I failed to notice Markus Reger Oracle Applications DBA Webmaster MBC University for Music and Performing Art Vienna [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/05/03 06:15 AM A couple of friends and I are thinking of putting up a small training company here in the Phils. (When we say small...its really small with almost 0 capitalization...just sheer guts and technical knowhow) We have looked at OTN and checked the licensing terms for the use of the software for training. We have stumbled on this provision: You may not: ·use the programs to provide third party training; I was wondering if any of you know if there is a different licensing for training institutions? How does a non-oracle partner acquire license to use Oracle DB software for training? I am looking at partnering with Oracle, but we are just starting and partnering costs $$. I dare not call Oracle Philippines just yet...If there is a need to purchase, and if we have the money, only then will we contact them. Thanks. =) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Maria Aurora VT de la Vega INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Markus Reger INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle License for Training
Markus - That is what I call a creative solution! I'm no lawyer either, but excellent! Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 9:34 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Did you ever consider that your (prospective) trainig candidates get the (for testing purposes freely downloadable) oracle software themselves and install it themselves (or assisted by you) on a good (linux - one might hope ;-)) box and then you assist them by getting along with this? I think this means, that you would not provide the software yourself - this is done by your traning candidates. As I am neither a jurist nor a lawyer, so I hope this is not pure nonsense - especially regarding the license agreement on technet.oracle.com. Apologies for any typing mistakes I failed to notice Markus Reger Oracle Applications DBA Webmaster MBC University for Music and Performing Art Vienna [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/05/03 06:15 AM A couple of friends and I are thinking of putting up a small training company here in the Phils. (When we say small...its really small with almost 0 capitalization...just sheer guts and technical knowhow) We have looked at OTN and checked the licensing terms for the use of the software for training. We have stumbled on this provision: You may not: ·use the programs to provide third party training; I was wondering if any of you know if there is a different licensing for training institutions? How does a non-oracle partner acquire license to use Oracle DB software for training? I am looking at partnering with Oracle, but we are just starting and partnering costs $$. I dare not call Oracle Philippines just yet...If there is a need to purchase, and if we have the money, only then will we contact them. Thanks. =) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Maria Aurora VT de la Vega INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Markus Reger INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: Oracle License for Training
Jeremy - I should probably have been more specific. :-) Years ago I worked for a software vendor. They wanted to port their product to Oracle. They expected to receive complimentary licenses in order to do this. Most vendors bend over backwards to have you port to their product. Oracle expected that they would buy licenses just like everybody else. We developers sort of ended up in the middle, since Oracle Support didn't consider us to exist and wouldn't allow us to file TARs. Again, this was one experience, and someone else might have had a different experience. Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L From: DENNIS WILLIAMS [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Maria - Actually, I would think the best time to contact Oracle sales is when you don't have money. Good sales people can smell money. ;-) Heh. Some software companies are very liberal about providing their product for development and training purposes. My impression has been that Oracle is NOT one of those companies. Um, no. For development they can't be beat; the only thing I miss out on is Metalink, but my clients usually provide a (legal) access path for that. OTN is fantastic for developers. However, for training this statement is true. I ran into this in a big way when working for a smallish SW company. We developed a slick method of rolling out the product to a large-scale enterprise, partially using some proprietary Oracle objects (sequences, PL/SQL, etc). Oracle had no problem with this. The problem occurred, however, when we wanted to hold private classes to train our consultants and implementation partners on this method. We ended up having to buy licenses, and eventually moving the tool to a non-platform specific means. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: Oracle License for Training
Interesting idea! =) I'll look through the license agreement (OTN) again. Then find a lawyer who's willing to be a partner... And who knows... Thanks a lot to Dennis W, Tim G, Dick G, Stephane F, jeremy P and Markus R! Thanks to everyone! I'm still open to any input/ideas/partnerships(?). Feel free to email me. I'll let you guys know how this little venture goes. =) DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: Markus - That is what I call a creative solution! I'm no lawyer either, but excellent! Dennis Williams DBA, 40%OCP Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 9:34 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Did you ever consider that your (prospective) trainig candidates get the (for testing purposes freely downloadable) oracle software themselves and install it themselves (or assisted by you) on a good (linux - one might hope ;-)) box and then you assist them by getting along with this? I think this means, that you would not provide the software yourself - this is done by your traning candidates. As I am neither a jurist nor a lawyer, so I hope this is not pure nonsense - especially regarding the license agreement on technet.oracle.com. Apologies for any typing mistakes I failed to notice Markus Reger Oracle Applications DBA Webmaster MBC University for Music and Performing Art Vienna [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/05/03 06:15 AM A couple of friends and I are thinking of putting up a small training company here in the Phils. (When we say small...its really small with almost 0 capitalization...just sheer guts and technical knowhow) We have looked at OTN and checked the licensing terms for the use of the software for training. We have stumbled on this provision: You may not: ·use the programs to provide third party training; I was wondering if any of you know if there is a different licensing for training institutions? How does a non-oracle partner acquire license to use Oracle DB software for training? I am looking at partnering with Oracle, but we are just starting and partnering costs $$. I dare not call Oracle Philippines just yet...If there is a need to purchase, and if we have the money, only then will we contact them. Thanks. =) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Maria Aurora VT de la Vega INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Markus Reger INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: DENNIS WILLIAMS INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Maria Aurora VT de la Vega Oracle DBA Philippine Stock Exchange, Inc. If you don't risk anything, you risk even more. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Maria Aurora VT de la Vega INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may
