Re: [osdcmy] Do CS need maths
If you want to be just another programmer, then you don't need that much
of math, otherwise, yes math is important.
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Raja Iskandar Shah rajaiskand...@gmail.com
wrote:
ahaks...
for a mathematician a simpler answer is n*(n+1)/2
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 1:57 PM, darXness darXness darxl...@gmail.comwrote:
math n CS...
IMHO,without math,programming cant go to the next
part.if,else,while,and most of the programming part is derived from
math.and we actually learn that in school.but under Math,not
programming.slowly,we implement in our program.without we knowing,we
actually doint math.just pick some of the code:
while(i = 0;i5;i++){
i;
}
see?we actually doing plus operation there.:D
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 1:26 PM, E A Faisal eafai...@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not formally trained on CS. All my programming knowledge is self
taught.
So this is my opinion.
Programming is not solely an art. It's both art and science. I
experienced
countless of times where knowing maths would be extremely useful. While
it's
true that you can program something without any understanding of math
but I
learned the hard way that to implement something efficiently and of high
quality you still need maths. I once created a middleware that helped to
bridge between a system with Hylafax which I needed to write a scheduler
to
poll fax status from Hylafax. My first implementation was straight
forward,
without any thought of mathematical model. It worked but it ate up
resources
needlessly. Though it didn't give any problem but it's not elegant
because
it wasted on computing resource which I might need in the future.
Eventually
I managed to find a mathematical model to implement a good scheduler -
yes!
math to the rescue.
Still not buying on the importance of math? Consider yourself doing
programming and need to choose a data structure. Without good math
understanding how can you decide which data structure would be best on a
given program? Want to analyse your newly and cool algorithm? Who you
gonna
call? Math, of course. Even when you code bussiness app, your business
logic
is basically a representation of mathematical model.
Not to discourage new programmer, you can still code with knowing math
in
depth. But, IMHO as you progress into a more competent programmer you
better
catch up with math again. It certainly helps. Math has helped me, I'm
sure
it's useful to others too.
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Harisfazillah Jamel
linuxmalay...@gmail.com wrote:
We really need math in CS. They way Computer engineers and software
developers think are like mathematician. All are numbers.
We codes in 1 and 0. if then else. all can be calculate and formula
can be created.
and one thing.
Computer programming is an art :)
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 11:40 AM, sweemeng ng swees...@gmail.com
wrote:
http://ocirs.com/2011/03/11/computer-science-education-and-math/
based on this article. Actually I kinda agree with the author. It
depends on
the goal, if aim for research YES, if for industry, maybe no
what you guys think
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Re: [osdcmy] Do CS need maths
I disagree with the statement that CS don't need math, but I think CS courses do not help students much in their future career because they are teaching it in the wrong (traditional) way. First of all, I think programming skill should be the foundation before entering CS. Everyone must have at least intermediary skills on programming before entering CS and are expected to understand advanced programming practices by themselves. If the students have little to no knowledge on programming, they must be sent to foundation courses or get a diploma first. Programming is a level-0 course and prerequisite of CS, it is the basics for everything in CS but outside the teaching scope of CS. Secondly, CS should teach the mathematical theories behind the various CS subjects and let the students apply the algorithms with their existing advanced programming skills. It's relationship with math is the same as applied physics with math. Students are expected to understand the proof behind the formulas but are not expected to construct new proofs - that's the job for mathematician and theoretical CS. If you only learn programming but not CS, you can only construct very high level programs where other true hackers have built the foundations for you. Yes, programming frameworks today are extremely powerful and allows even mediocre programmers to write powerful programs without understanding what's going on behind the scene, but somebody still has to write and maintain the frameworks and libraries, and that needs a lot of CS and math skills. There are so many subjects out there that require deep understanding in math and CS, just to name a few: information retrieval, image processing, artificial intelligence, compiler design, formal semantics, operating systems, database systems, concurrency, graph algorithms, distributed computing, and so on. These are the subjects that really makes todays technologies possible, even Google, Facebook, GCC, and Linux are built on top of the many theories in CS. Nevertheless, it is true that the market for jobs requiring CS is shrinking, especially for places like Malaysia. I feel that today's programmers are split into two camps: one camp that make use of CS to build various libraries and frameworks, and the other camp that makes use of the libraries and frameworks with little understanding on what's going on behind. The market for non-CS camp programmers is expanding in rapid speed, thanks to today's technologies such as Android, iPhone, HTML5, and cloud computing. It is kinda sad for me to see the younger generation of prospective CS students having too much attention focused on developing cool (insert-buzzword)-Apps, rather that the CS behind that makes it possible. Now I'm not saying that developing apps is not important, but I would prefer programmers to also look at the CS behind the apps - the programs that power Android, the browsers, the cloud, and so on. Also, technology is constantly changing. The buzzwords today might fade away quickly in few years time and replaced by new buzzwords, but the maths and theories behind the technologies will not change much. So a programmer who has solid CS knowledge can easily adapt the technologies that based on new theories, while the non-CS programmers will always need to wait for the CS programmers to rebuild new frameworks and make use of the new APIs. Anyway, regardless of the importance of CS, it's kinda sad that in Malaysia there is almost no job opportunity for CS programmers AFAIK. Most Malaysian companies that I seen focus on using existing frameworks to build software that matter to businesses. There is nothing wrong with doing so, my point is just that it has very little to do with CS. If I know any Malaysia company that actually makes use of (non-theoretical) CS, I would probably jump ship to work for that company. :P I think the problem of CS getting further away from programmers is also similar to the engineering field. Most people with engineering degree today do not work as a true engineer. Well their job titles still write engineer, but most of them don't really do the kind of fundamental engineering, such as designing machines or building megastructures, that make our modern lives possible. Most engineers also make use of the works of a small number of core engineers who really make use of the engineering knowledge. So while deeper engineering knowledge still matters today, it matter less for majority of the engineers today. (disclaimer: I have little understanding on what engineers really do, that's just my observation from my friends graduating from engineering, and I may be wrong) just my two cents. Btw even though I attended some CS courses, most of my CS knowledge come from self teaching. On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Raja Iskandar Shah rajaiskand...@gmail.com wrote: ahaks... for a mathematician a simpler answer is n*(n+1)/2 On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 1:57 PM, darXness darXness darxl...@gmail.comwrote:
Re: [osdcmy] Do CS need maths
Becareful with that, in Malaysia programming will not be introduced until you go college/university(got a feeling it is the same for other country), it is not even teached fully in form 6, if at all. So even we know programming, we need a cert, in comes the question by who, what syllabus etc. Because public uni tends to be from Form 6, where as most in private college, tend to continue from diploma or foundation which might not cover programming. Unless there is change, that again is another rant, this time by Boh in the mailing list not long ago. On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Chen Ruo Fei crf2...@gmail.com wrote: I disagree with the statement that CS don't need math, but I think CS courses do not help students much in their future career because they are teaching it in the wrong (traditional) way. First of all, I think programming skill should be the foundation before entering CS. Everyone must have at least intermediary skills on programming before entering CS and are expected to understand advanced programming practices by themselves. If the students have little to no knowledge on programming, they must be sent to foundation courses or get a diploma first. Programming is a level-0 course and prerequisite of CS, it is the basics for everything in CS but outside the teaching scope of CS. Secondly, CS should teach the mathematical theories behind the various CS subjects and let the students apply the algorithms with their existing advanced programming skills. It's relationship with math is the same as applied physics with math. Students are expected to understand the proof behind the formulas but are not expected to construct new proofs - that's the job for mathematician and theoretical CS. If you only learn programming but not CS, you can only construct very high level programs where other true hackers have built the foundations for you. Yes, programming frameworks today are extremely powerful and allows even mediocre programmers to write powerful programs without understanding what's going on behind the scene, but somebody still has to write and maintain the frameworks and libraries, and that needs a lot of CS and math skills. There are so many subjects out there that require deep understanding in math and CS, just to name a few: information retrieval, image processing, artificial intelligence, compiler design, formal semantics, operating systems, database systems, concurrency, graph algorithms, distributed computing, and so on. These are the subjects that really makes todays technologies possible, even Google, Facebook, GCC, and Linux are built on top of the many theories in CS. Nevertheless, it is true that the market for jobs requiring CS is shrinking, especially for places like Malaysia. I feel that today's programmers are split into two camps: one camp that make use of CS to build various libraries and frameworks, and the other camp that makes use of the libraries and frameworks with little understanding on what's going on behind. The market for non-CS camp programmers is expanding in rapid speed, thanks to today's technologies such as Android, iPhone, HTML5, and cloud computing. It is kinda sad for me to see the younger generation of prospective CS students having too much attention focused on developing cool (insert-buzzword)-Apps, rather that the CS behind that makes it possible. Now I'm not saying that developing apps is not important, but I would prefer programmers to also look at the CS behind the apps - the programs that power Android, the browsers, the cloud, and so on. Also, technology is constantly changing. The buzzwords today might fade away quickly in few years time and replaced by new buzzwords, but the maths and theories behind the technologies will not change much. So a programmer who has solid CS knowledge can easily adapt the technologies that based on new theories, while the non-CS programmers will always need to wait for the CS programmers to rebuild new frameworks and make use of the new APIs. Anyway, regardless of the importance of CS, it's kinda sad that in Malaysia there is almost no job opportunity for CS programmers AFAIK. Most Malaysian companies that I seen focus on using existing frameworks to build software that matter to businesses. There is nothing wrong with doing so, my point is just that it has very little to do with CS. If I know any Malaysia company that actually makes use of (non-theoretical) CS, I would probably jump ship to work for that company. :P I think the problem of CS getting further away from programmers is also similar to the engineering field. Most people with engineering degree today do not work as a true engineer. Well their job titles still write engineer, but most of them don't really do the kind of fundamental engineering, such as designing machines or building megastructures, that make our modern lives possible. Most engineers also make use of the works of a small
Re: [osdcmy] Do CS need maths
Precisely my point
While programming is mostly logics, which in turn is a branch of maths,
which in turn covered like in one class(?). But how about advance maths. do
we use calculus that much. unless we write game, or image processing. Most
of the apps, business apps is more of a get from database, display output,
or take from output and put into database, and scalability is by putting
more machine.
Then, comes another question, who here is actually solving the hard problem
in CS that actually require advance maths.
Just curious anyway
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 4:23 PM, zarul shahrin zarulshah...@gmail.comwrote:
If you want to be just another programmer, then you don't need that much
of math, otherwise, yes math is important.
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Raja Iskandar Shah
rajaiskand...@gmail.com wrote:
ahaks...
for a mathematician a simpler answer is n*(n+1)/2
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 1:57 PM, darXness darXness darxl...@gmail.comwrote:
math n CS...
IMHO,without math,programming cant go to the next
part.if,else,while,and most of the programming part is derived from
math.and we actually learn that in school.but under Math,not
programming.slowly,we implement in our program.without we knowing,we
actually doint math.just pick some of the code:
while(i = 0;i5;i++){
i;
}
see?we actually doing plus operation there.:D
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 1:26 PM, E A Faisal eafai...@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not formally trained on CS. All my programming knowledge is self
taught.
So this is my opinion.
Programming is not solely an art. It's both art and science. I
experienced
countless of times where knowing maths would be extremely useful. While
it's
true that you can program something without any understanding of math
but I
learned the hard way that to implement something efficiently and of
high
quality you still need maths. I once created a middleware that helped
to
bridge between a system with Hylafax which I needed to write a
scheduler to
poll fax status from Hylafax. My first implementation was straight
forward,
without any thought of mathematical model. It worked but it ate up
resources
needlessly. Though it didn't give any problem but it's not elegant
because
it wasted on computing resource which I might need in the future.
Eventually
I managed to find a mathematical model to implement a good scheduler -
yes!
math to the rescue.
Still not buying on the importance of math? Consider yourself doing
programming and need to choose a data structure. Without good math
understanding how can you decide which data structure would be best on
a
given program? Want to analyse your newly and cool algorithm? Who you
gonna
call? Math, of course. Even when you code bussiness app, your business
logic
is basically a representation of mathematical model.
Not to discourage new programmer, you can still code with knowing math
in
depth. But, IMHO as you progress into a more competent programmer you
better
catch up with math again. It certainly helps. Math has helped me, I'm
sure
it's useful to others too.
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Harisfazillah Jamel
linuxmalay...@gmail.com wrote:
We really need math in CS. They way Computer engineers and software
developers think are like mathematician. All are numbers.
We codes in 1 and 0. if then else. all can be calculate and formula
can be created.
and one thing.
Computer programming is an art :)
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 11:40 AM, sweemeng ng swees...@gmail.com
wrote:
http://ocirs.com/2011/03/11/computer-science-education-and-math/
based on this article. Actually I kinda agree with the author. It
depends on
the goal, if aim for research YES, if for industry, maybe no
what you guys think
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Re: [osdcmy] Do CS need maths
Then, comes another question, who here is actually solving the hard problem
in CS that actually require advance maths.
1) Many bro many. Many of these people are just being low profile.
2) Math is important more than to solve hard problems. A good understanding
of math helps you to solve simple problems in the most elegant way.
Just an example, some programmers without a math background would take
1000 LoC to implement something that took a good coder who is good at math,
perhaps 100 LoC?
Just curious anyway
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 4:23 PM, zarul shahrin zarulshah...@gmail.comwrote:
If you want to be just another programmer, then you don't need that much
of math, otherwise, yes math is important.
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Raja Iskandar Shah
rajaiskand...@gmail.com wrote:
ahaks...
for a mathematician a simpler answer is n*(n+1)/2
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 1:57 PM, darXness darXness
darxl...@gmail.comwrote:
math n CS...
IMHO,without math,programming cant go to the next
part.if,else,while,and most of the programming part is derived from
math.and we actually learn that in school.but under Math,not
programming.slowly,we implement in our program.without we knowing,we
actually doint math.just pick some of the code:
while(i = 0;i5;i++){
i;
}
see?we actually doing plus operation there.:D
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 1:26 PM, E A Faisal eafai...@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not formally trained on CS. All my programming knowledge is self
taught.
So this is my opinion.
Programming is not solely an art. It's both art and science. I
experienced
countless of times where knowing maths would be extremely useful.
While it's
true that you can program something without any understanding of math
but I
learned the hard way that to implement something efficiently and of
high
quality you still need maths. I once created a middleware that helped
to
bridge between a system with Hylafax which I needed to write a
scheduler to
poll fax status from Hylafax. My first implementation was straight
forward,
without any thought of mathematical model. It worked but it ate up
resources
needlessly. Though it didn't give any problem but it's not elegant
because
it wasted on computing resource which I might need in the future.
Eventually
I managed to find a mathematical model to implement a good scheduler -
yes!
math to the rescue.
Still not buying on the importance of math? Consider yourself doing
programming and need to choose a data structure. Without good math
understanding how can you decide which data structure would be best on
a
given program? Want to analyse your newly and cool algorithm? Who you
gonna
call? Math, of course. Even when you code bussiness app, your business
logic
is basically a representation of mathematical model.
Not to discourage new programmer, you can still code with knowing math
in
depth. But, IMHO as you progress into a more competent programmer you
better
catch up with math again. It certainly helps. Math has helped me, I'm
sure
it's useful to others too.
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Harisfazillah Jamel
linuxmalay...@gmail.com wrote:
We really need math in CS. They way Computer engineers and software
developers think are like mathematician. All are numbers.
We codes in 1 and 0. if then else. all can be calculate and formula
can be created.
and one thing.
Computer programming is an art :)
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 11:40 AM, sweemeng ng swees...@gmail.com
wrote:
http://ocirs.com/2011/03/11/computer-science-education-and-math/
based on this article. Actually I kinda agree with the author. It
depends on
the goal, if aim for research YES, if for industry, maybe no
what you guys think
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Re: [osdcmy] Do CS need maths
My answer is simple: If you want to do the same thing that every bloody one is doing then you do not need math, If you want to do something no one else has done before, then, hell yes you need math Azrul On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 11:40 AM, sweemeng ng swees...@gmail.com wrote: http://ocirs.com/2011/03/11/computer-science-education-and-math/ based on this article. Actually I kinda agree with the author. It depends on the goal, if aim for research YES, if for industry, maybe no what you guys think -- To unsubscribe from and detail about this group http://portal.mosc.my/osdc-my-mailing-list-information MOSC2011 http://fb.me/mosc2011 MOSC Survey 2011 Awareness Of OSS Certification http://survey.mosc.my/mosc-survey-2011-awareness-oss-cert -- To unsubscribe from and detail about this group http://portal.mosc.my/osdc-my-mailing-list-information MOSC2011 http://fb.me/mosc2011
[osdcmy] Do CS need maths
http://ocirs.com/2011/03/11/computer-science-education-and-math/ based on this article. Actually I kinda agree with the author. It depends on the goal, if aim for research YES, if for industry, maybe no what you guys think -- To unsubscribe from and detail about this group http://portal.mosc.my/osdc-my-mailing-list-information MOSC2011 http://fb.me/mosc2011 MOSC Survey 2011 Awareness Of OSS Certification http://survey.mosc.my/mosc-survey-2011-awareness-oss-cert
Re: [osdcmy] Do CS need maths
We really need math in CS. They way Computer engineers and software developers think are like mathematician. All are numbers. We codes in 1 and 0. if then else. all can be calculate and formula can be created. and one thing. Computer programming is an art :) On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 11:40 AM, sweemeng ng swees...@gmail.com wrote: http://ocirs.com/2011/03/11/computer-science-education-and-math/ based on this article. Actually I kinda agree with the author. It depends on the goal, if aim for research YES, if for industry, maybe no what you guys think -- To unsubscribe from and detail about this group http://portal.mosc.my/osdc-my-mailing-list-information MOSC2011 http://fb.me/mosc2011 MOSC Survey 2011 Awareness Of OSS Certification http://survey.mosc.my/mosc-survey-2011-awareness-oss-cert
Re: [osdcmy] Do CS need maths
I'm not formally trained on CS. All my programming knowledge is self taught. So this is my opinion. Programming is not solely an art. It's both art and science. I experienced countless of times where knowing maths would be extremely useful. While it's true that you can program something without any understanding of math but I learned the hard way that to implement something efficiently and of high quality you still need maths. I once created a middleware that helped to bridge between a system with Hylafax which I needed to write a scheduler to poll fax status from Hylafax. My first implementation was straight forward, without any thought of mathematical model. It worked but it ate up resources needlessly. Though it didn't give any problem but it's not elegant because it wasted on computing resource which I might need in the future. Eventually I managed to find a mathematical model to implement a good scheduler - yes! math to the rescue. Still not buying on the importance of math? Consider yourself doing programming and need to choose a data structure. Without good math understanding how can you decide which data structure would be best on a given program? Want to analyse your newly and cool algorithm? Who you gonna call? Math, of course. Even when you code bussiness app, your business logic is basically a representation of mathematical model. Not to discourage new programmer, you can still code with knowing math in depth. But, IMHO as you progress into a more competent programmer you better catch up with math again. It certainly helps. Math has helped me, I'm sure it's useful to others too. On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Harisfazillah Jamel linuxmalay...@gmail.com wrote: We really need math in CS. They way Computer engineers and software developers think are like mathematician. All are numbers. We codes in 1 and 0. if then else. all can be calculate and formula can be created. and one thing. Computer programming is an art :) On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 11:40 AM, sweemeng ng swees...@gmail.com wrote: http://ocirs.com/2011/03/11/computer-science-education-and-math/ based on this article. Actually I kinda agree with the author. It depends on the goal, if aim for research YES, if for industry, maybe no what you guys think -- To unsubscribe from and detail about this group http://portal.mosc.my/osdc-my-mailing-list-information MOSC2011 http://fb.me/mosc2011 MOSC Survey 2011 Awareness Of OSS Certification http://survey.mosc.my/mosc-survey-2011-awareness-oss-cert -- To unsubscribe from and detail about this group http://portal.mosc.my/osdc-my-mailing-list-information MOSC2011 http://fb.me/mosc2011 MOSC Survey 2011 Awareness Of OSS Certification http://survey.mosc.my/mosc-survey-2011-awareness-oss-cert
Re: [osdcmy] Do CS need maths
ahaks...
for a mathematician a simpler answer is n*(n+1)/2
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 1:57 PM, darXness darXness darxl...@gmail.comwrote:
math n CS...
IMHO,without math,programming cant go to the next
part.if,else,while,and most of the programming part is derived from
math.and we actually learn that in school.but under Math,not
programming.slowly,we implement in our program.without we knowing,we
actually doint math.just pick some of the code:
while(i = 0;i5;i++){
i;
}
see?we actually doing plus operation there.:D
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 1:26 PM, E A Faisal eafai...@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not formally trained on CS. All my programming knowledge is self
taught.
So this is my opinion.
Programming is not solely an art. It's both art and science. I
experienced
countless of times where knowing maths would be extremely useful. While
it's
true that you can program something without any understanding of math but
I
learned the hard way that to implement something efficiently and of high
quality you still need maths. I once created a middleware that helped to
bridge between a system with Hylafax which I needed to write a scheduler
to
poll fax status from Hylafax. My first implementation was straight
forward,
without any thought of mathematical model. It worked but it ate up
resources
needlessly. Though it didn't give any problem but it's not elegant
because
it wasted on computing resource which I might need in the future.
Eventually
I managed to find a mathematical model to implement a good scheduler -
yes!
math to the rescue.
Still not buying on the importance of math? Consider yourself doing
programming and need to choose a data structure. Without good math
understanding how can you decide which data structure would be best on a
given program? Want to analyse your newly and cool algorithm? Who you
gonna
call? Math, of course. Even when you code bussiness app, your business
logic
is basically a representation of mathematical model.
Not to discourage new programmer, you can still code with knowing math in
depth. But, IMHO as you progress into a more competent programmer you
better
catch up with math again. It certainly helps. Math has helped me, I'm
sure
it's useful to others too.
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Harisfazillah Jamel
linuxmalay...@gmail.com wrote:
We really need math in CS. They way Computer engineers and software
developers think are like mathematician. All are numbers.
We codes in 1 and 0. if then else. all can be calculate and formula
can be created.
and one thing.
Computer programming is an art :)
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 11:40 AM, sweemeng ng swees...@gmail.com
wrote:
http://ocirs.com/2011/03/11/computer-science-education-and-math/
based on this article. Actually I kinda agree with the author. It
depends on
the goal, if aim for research YES, if for industry, maybe no
what you guys think
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