Re: It's that time of year - F#

[Greg Keogh]

>
> [cut]
> ...Language Service Protocol (LSP) for sharing across VS and VS Code.
>

Now that's an interesting subject I didn't know about. Language Server
Protocol  * Official
Page  (shame it's
based on JSON) -- *Greg K*

Re: It's that time of year - F#

[David Kean]

Side note, Roslyn's lack of support for F# is not the lack of tail calls, it's 
the symbol/syntax model isn't designed for a language that doesn't look like C# 
or VB. Roslyn does provide higher level features for F# (and Typescript) around 
diagnostics and workspace/file views but that's being slowly replaced in lieu 
of the Language Service Protocol (LSP) for sharing across VS and VS Code.


From: David Burstin via ozdotnet 
Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2022 1:52 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: Piers Williams ; David Burstin 

Subject: Re: It's that time of year - F#

Thanks Piers. I think that's an excellent summary of the F# dilemma - it is 
better but falls due to its far lower adoption. For those old enough to 
understand, it's VHS vs BetaMax.

On Sun, 3 Jul 2022 at 12:07, Piers Williams via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote:
I'm a bit torn on this subject.

I spent the last 3 years of the 'hands on' part of my dev career swapped over 
to F# from many, many years of writing predominantly C#, and it was a fantastic 
experience. Don Syne's main pitch these days is to think of F# as a 
productivity language first, and a FP language second, and I would support that 
view. Much of what F# pioneered in the .net space has indeed come over to C# in 
recent versions, but as a result C# syntax has grown significantly, and I see 
engineers having to talk each other out of 'bad practices' to use new idioms. 
You don't get that in F# - the 'right way' is just the default to start with, 
and you have to go out of your way to do the reverse (mutable code, 
side-affecting structures etc...). Rather than FP, just think 'nicer C#'.

That said, as a manager now, I'd have to be completely honest that it does 
present some real issues, principally around recruitment and/or ramp-up. I 
personally thought the cross-skilling was easy (~2-3 weeks), but even allowing 
for that, it's still an impost, and there is an entirely legitimate view that 
it's just one more thing engineers have to think about. F# hasn't been ported 
to Roslyn (Roslyn can't yet cope with tail calls I believe), which then 
excludes some tooling (like static analysis). And Microsoft themselves were 
gently dissuasive when the subject of using it for a particular project was 
brought up by the team.

So ultimately I think the question comes down to productivity and cognitive 
load. F# does a fantastic job (I think) of reducing those, but at the cost of 
biting off some up-front cross-skilling. The latter cost is very real and 
tangible, and the former is quite a lot harder to pin down and measure.

Ultimately in my case the engineering team came to the conclusion they had 
enough on their plate to worry about already, and I can't help but sympathise 
with that. That said, any code I write at home, or just to prove a point, I 
write in F#. I'm never going back.

Piers

On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 at 10:31, Tom Gao via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote:
I used F# for my doctorate as a modelling language to build out a prototype for 
a security integration platform I developed.

The problem is that there are very few people who use F# afaik. Getting any 
commercial code developed will create a problem for ongoing support. Just my 
view.

btw. this is a long shot. I'm looking for a senior digital PM in sydney does 
anyone know of anyone good who might be interested? (I'm not a recruiter but 
just desperate to get a project going)

On Fri, Jun 24, 2022 at 3:42 PM David Burstin via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote:
Hi folks,

It's been about a year since I asked, so here it is again. Does anyone know of 
any F# work being done in Melbourne, or anywhere in Australia?

I've managed to do some small F# helper apps for my employer, but 98% of what I 
do is C#. I'd really love to find somewhere that uses F#.

On the plus side - F# has helped improve my C# approach dramatically, and C# is 
constantly introducing more functional ideas (although discriminated unions and 
active patterns would be lovely).

So, anyone know anything?

Cheers
David
--
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Re: It's that time of year - F#

[David Burstin]

Thanks Piers. I think that's an excellent summary of the F# dilemma - it is
better but falls due to its far lower adoption. For those old enough to
understand, it's VHS vs BetaMax.

On Sun, 3 Jul 2022 at 12:07, Piers Williams via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> I'm a bit torn on this subject.
>
> I spent the last 3 years of the 'hands on' part of my dev career swapped
> over to F# from many, many years of writing predominantly C#, and it was a
> fantastic experience. Don Syne's main pitch these days is to think of F# as
> a productivity language first, and a FP language second, and I would
> support that view. Much of what F# pioneered in the .net space has indeed
> come over to C# in recent versions, but as a result C# syntax has grown
> significantly, and I see engineers having to talk each other out of 'bad
> practices' to use new idioms. You don't get that in F# - the 'right way' is
> just the default to start with, and you have to go out of your way to do
> the reverse (mutable code, side-affecting structures etc...). Rather than
> FP, just think 'nicer C#'.
>
> That said, as a manager now, I'd have to be completely honest that it does
> present some real issues, principally around recruitment and/or ramp-up. I
> personally thought the cross-skilling was easy (~2-3 weeks), but even
> allowing for that, it's still an impost, and there is an entirely
> legitimate view that it's just one more thing engineers have to think
> about. F# hasn't been ported to Roslyn (Roslyn can't yet cope with tail
> calls I believe), which then excludes some tooling (like static analysis).
> And Microsoft themselves were gently dissuasive when the subject of using
> it for a particular project was brought up by the team.
>
> So ultimately I think the question comes down to productivity and
> cognitive load. F# does a fantastic job (I think) of reducing those, but at
> the cost of biting off some up-front cross-skilling. The latter cost is
> very real and tangible, and the former is quite a lot harder to pin down
> and measure.
>
> Ultimately in my case the engineering team came to the conclusion they had
> enough on their plate to worry about already, and I can't help but
> sympathise with that. That said, any code I write at home, or just to prove
> a point, I write in F#. I'm never going back.
>
> Piers
>
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 at 10:31, Tom Gao via ozdotnet 
> wrote:
>
>> I used F# for my doctorate as a modelling language to build out a
>> prototype for a security integration platform I developed.
>>
>> The problem is that there are very few people who use F# afaik. Getting
>> any commercial code developed will create a problem for ongoing support.
>> Just my view.
>>
>> btw. this is a long shot. I'm looking for a senior digital PM in sydney
>> does anyone know of anyone good who might be interested? (I'm not a
>> recruiter but just desperate to get a project going)
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 24, 2022 at 3:42 PM David Burstin via ozdotnet <
>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> It's been about a year since I asked, so here it is again. Does anyone
>>> know of any F# work being done in Melbourne, or anywhere in Australia?
>>>
>>> I've managed to do some small F# helper apps for my employer, but 98% of
>>> what I do is C#. I'd really love to find somewhere that uses F#.
>>>
>>> On the plus side - F# has helped improve my C# approach dramatically,
>>> and C# is constantly introducing more functional ideas (although
>>> discriminated unions and active patterns would be lovely).
>>>
>>> So, anyone know anything?
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> David
>>> --
>>> ozdotnet mailing list
>>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>>
>> --
>> ozdotnet mailing list
>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
>
>
> --
> piers
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/

Re: It's that time of year - F#

[Piers Williams]

I'm a bit torn on this subject.

I spent the last 3 years of the 'hands on' part of my dev career swapped
over to F# from many, many years of writing predominantly C#, and it was a
fantastic experience. Don Syne's main pitch these days is to think of F# as
a productivity language first, and a FP language second, and I would
support that view. Much of what F# pioneered in the .net space has indeed
come over to C# in recent versions, but as a result C# syntax has grown
significantly, and I see engineers having to talk each other out of 'bad
practices' to use new idioms. You don't get that in F# - the 'right way' is
just the default to start with, and you have to go out of your way to do
the reverse (mutable code, side-affecting structures etc...). Rather than
FP, just think 'nicer C#'.

That said, as a manager now, I'd have to be completely honest that it does
present some real issues, principally around recruitment and/or ramp-up. I
personally thought the cross-skilling was easy (~2-3 weeks), but even
allowing for that, it's still an impost, and there is an entirely
legitimate view that it's just one more thing engineers have to think
about. F# hasn't been ported to Roslyn (Roslyn can't yet cope with tail
calls I believe), which then excludes some tooling (like static analysis).
And Microsoft themselves were gently dissuasive when the subject of using
it for a particular project was brought up by the team.

So ultimately I think the question comes down to productivity and cognitive
load. F# does a fantastic job (I think) of reducing those, but at the cost
of biting off some up-front cross-skilling. The latter cost is very real
and tangible, and the former is quite a lot harder to pin down and measure.

Ultimately in my case the engineering team came to the conclusion they had
enough on their plate to worry about already, and I can't help but
sympathise with that. That said, any code I write at home, or just to prove
a point, I write in F#. I'm never going back.

Piers

On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 at 10:31, Tom Gao via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> I used F# for my doctorate as a modelling language to build out a
> prototype for a security integration platform I developed.
>
> The problem is that there are very few people who use F# afaik. Getting
> any commercial code developed will create a problem for ongoing support.
> Just my view.
>
> btw. this is a long shot. I'm looking for a senior digital PM in sydney
> does anyone know of anyone good who might be interested? (I'm not a
> recruiter but just desperate to get a project going)
>
> On Fri, Jun 24, 2022 at 3:42 PM David Burstin via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> It's been about a year since I asked, so here it is again. Does anyone
>> know of any F# work being done in Melbourne, or anywhere in Australia?
>>
>> I've managed to do some small F# helper apps for my employer, but 98% of
>> what I do is C#. I'd really love to find somewhere that uses F#.
>>
>> On the plus side - F# has helped improve my C# approach dramatically, and
>> C# is constantly introducing more functional ideas (although discriminated
>> unions and active patterns would be lovely).
>>
>> So, anyone know anything?
>>
>> Cheers
>> David
>> --
>> ozdotnet mailing list
>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/



-- 
piers

Re: It's that time of year - F#

[Dr Greg Low]

If the requirements for what it needs to integrate with stay stationary then 
no, but they usually don't.

For example, SQL Server Reporting Services is awesome and still has significant 
use cases where it is the most appropriate tool. But you'd be waiting forever 
for an updated report viewer control to place in, say, a new Blazor based app.

It's always up to the owners if they turn tools into abandonware. It's easy to 
kill products through neglect.

Mind you, I spent the day integrating ADF, AAS, and Power BI again with an app 
(still in use) that was written in Progress in 1983.

Regards

Greg

Dr Greg Low
Director
SQL Down Under Pty Ltd
Office: 1300SQLSQL (1300775775)
Mobile: +61419201410
About me: https://greglow.me


From: mike smith via ozdotnet 
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2022 6:11:46 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: mike smith 
Subject: Re: It's that time of year - F#

Do languages need constant evolution to be seen as successful?

As a recent post said, look at c++

Mike

On Wed, 29 June 2022, 11:06 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote:

In fact, the messaging changed fairly abruptly.



Compare Kathleen’s article in Nov 2018: 
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/vbteam/visual-basic-in-net-core-3-0/



With the one 15 months later: 
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/vbteam/visual-basic-support-planned-for-net-5-0/



Regards,



Greg



Dr Greg Low



1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile

SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | 
About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low



From: Greg Keogh mailto:gfke...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, 29 June 2022 11:21 AM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: David Burstin mailto:david.burs...@gmail.com>>; 
David Kean mailto:david.k...@microsoft.com>>; Dr Greg 
Low mailto:g...@sqldownunder.com>>
Subject: Re: It's that time of year - F#



Mind you, there have been many interesting languages over the years. And their 
fate has not always seemed logical.



I think a year ago I said something like ... I was excited about F# when it 
first came out, but never got to write any production software using it. 
Whenever I sat down to write something serious I got bogged down in choices and 
syntax details and "bridging" over to other C# libraries to do the heavy 
lifting. There were lots of other irritations like long searches for good 
samples, less tooling, less (and bewildering) documentation, smaller community, 
lack of T4 templates, etc. If I were writing lots of algorithmic code then F# 
would be a superior choice and all the "bridging" would be pushed to the edges, 
but lots of typical LOB coding is best done in C#.



C# has evolved so far now that it must be the best hybrid language in popular 
use by a long shot, and its functional features are deflating F#'s functional 
fame. The downside is that C# is accumulating so many features that I can't 
remember them all, so I'm thankful when Visual Studio light bulbs appear and 
remind me to replace my force-of-habit clumsy code. I hope they ease off on new 
C# features in the future, I don't want it to turn into C++ 20/23 or 
PL/I<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/I> (the language that was going to solve 
every problem in the world).



Cheers, Greg K



P.S. What happened to VB.NET<http://VB.NET>? No sarcasm, it just seems to have 
dropped out of articles and announcements.

--
ozdotnet mailing list
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/

Re: It's that time of year - F#

[mike smith]

Do languages need constant evolution to be seen as successful?

As a recent post said, look at c++

Mike

On Wed, 29 June 2022, 11:06 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, 
wrote:

> In fact, the messaging changed fairly abruptly.
>
>
>
> Compare Kathleen’s article in Nov 2018:
> https://devblogs.microsoft.com/vbteam/visual-basic-in-net-core-3-0/
>
>
>
> With the one 15 months later:
> https://devblogs.microsoft.com/vbteam/visual-basic-support-planned-for-net-5-0/
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com | About Greg:
> https://about.me/greg.low
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Keogh 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 29 June 2022 11:21 AM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* David Burstin ; David Kean <
> david.k...@microsoft.com>; Dr Greg Low 
> *Subject:* Re: It's that time of year - F#
>
>
>
> Mind you, there have been many interesting languages over the years. And
> their fate has not always seemed logical.
>
>
>
> I think a year ago I said something like ... I was excited about F# when
> it first came out, but never got to write any production software using it.
> Whenever I sat down to write something serious I got bogged down in choices
> and syntax details and "bridging" over to other C# libraries to do the
> heavy lifting. There were lots of other irritations like long searches for
> good samples, less tooling, less (and bewildering) documentation, smaller
> community, lack of T4 templates, etc. If I were writing lots of algorithmic
> code then F# would be a superior choice and all the "bridging" would be
> pushed to the edges, but lots of typical LOB coding is best done in C#.
>
>
>
> C# has evolved so far now that it must be the best hybrid language in
> popular use by a long shot, and its functional features are deflating F#'s
> functional fame. The downside is that C# is accumulating so many features
> that I can't remember them all, so I'm thankful when Visual Studio light
> bulbs appear and remind me to replace my force-of-habit clumsy code. I hope
> they ease off on new C# features in the future, I don't want it to turn
> into C++ 20/23 or PL/I <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/I> (the language
> that was going to solve every problem in the world).
>
>
>
> Cheers, *Greg K*
>
>
>
> P.S. What happened to VB.NET? No sarcasm, it just seems to have dropped
> out of articles and announcements.
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/

Re: It's that time of year - F#

[Nathan Schultz]

As Alan J Perlis once wrote, "A language that doesn't affect the way you
think about programming, is not worth knowing."

For me it was F# that introduced me to functional concepts; which if
anything has made me a better C# programmer.
So it's the concepts and not the language that I'm taking with me;
especially since C# has been gradually adopting F# features.

Case-in-point; processors are approaching atomic limits in their die size.
And in order to improve performance CPU makers are simply adding more
cores. So even on mobile phones we're seeing 10 or more cores now. And I
felt the languages I've used in the past (up until now) haven't been the
best to get the most out of the hardware. And that's why I'm happy that C#
has been bringing in F# ideas. First was async / await. And now it is
bringing in immutability. So we can write pure functions and we don't have
to care which core they run on (or even which core on which machine in the
cloud) - because for the same input you always get the same output. We can
guarantee against race conditions.

We're seeing Source Generators - which hopefully in time I'm hoping will
get to Type Provider levels of power.

Record types mean creating ID types is easy (no reason a primary key should
be an Int or Long - as indeed a CustomerID shouldn't be comparable with an
OrderID, and you don't need to do mathematics on it). Although we still
don't have discriminated unions which would make C# a better candidate for
DDD. And really make impossible states impossible using the type system.

And after so many years C# is now actually getting pattern matching and
switch statements that are actually useful (although again, discriminated
unions would help here).

I still think F# is a nicer language for the world we're moving into (my F#
illiterate co-workers' jaws still drop when I demo pulling data from the
world bank and chart indicators in a few lines).
But C# is getting better with every release.

On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 at 09:36, Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> In fact, the messaging changed fairly abruptly.
>
>
>
> Compare Kathleen’s article in Nov 2018:
> https://devblogs.microsoft.com/vbteam/visual-basic-in-net-core-3-0/
>
>
>
> With the one 15 months later:
> https://devblogs.microsoft.com/vbteam/visual-basic-support-planned-for-net-5-0/
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com | About Greg:
> https://about.me/greg.low
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Keogh 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 29 June 2022 11:21 AM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* David Burstin ; David Kean <
> david.k...@microsoft.com>; Dr Greg Low 
> *Subject:* Re: It's that time of year - F#
>
>
>
> Mind you, there have been many interesting languages over the years. And
> their fate has not always seemed logical.
>
>
>
> I think a year ago I said something like ... I was excited about F# when
> it first came out, but never got to write any production software using it.
> Whenever I sat down to write something serious I got bogged down in choices
> and syntax details and "bridging" over to other C# libraries to do the
> heavy lifting. There were lots of other irritations like long searches for
> good samples, less tooling, less (and bewildering) documentation, smaller
> community, lack of T4 templates, etc. If I were writing lots of algorithmic
> code then F# would be a superior choice and all the "bridging" would be
> pushed to the edges, but lots of typical LOB coding is best done in C#.
>
>
>
> C# has evolved so far now that it must be the best hybrid language in
> popular use by a long shot, and its functional features are deflating F#'s
> functional fame. The downside is that C# is accumulating so many features
> that I can't remember them all, so I'm thankful when Visual Studio light
> bulbs appear and remind me to replace my force-of-habit clumsy code. I hope
> they ease off on new C# features in the future, I don't want it to turn
> into C++ 20/23 or PL/I <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/I> (the language
> that was going to solve every problem in the world).
>
>
>
> Cheers, *Greg K*
>
>
>
> P.S. What happened to VB.NET? No sarcasm, it just seems to have dropped
> out of articles and announcements.
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/

RE: It's that time of year - F#

[Dr Greg Low]

In fact, the messaging changed fairly abruptly.

Compare Kathleen’s article in Nov 2018: 
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/vbteam/visual-basic-in-net-core-3-0/

With the one 15 months later: 
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/vbteam/visual-basic-support-planned-for-net-5-0/

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | 
About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low

From: Greg Keogh 
Sent: Wednesday, 29 June 2022 11:21 AM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: David Burstin ; David Kean 
; Dr Greg Low 
Subject: Re: It's that time of year - F#

Mind you, there have been many interesting languages over the years. And their 
fate has not always seemed logical.

I think a year ago I said something like ... I was excited about F# when it 
first came out, but never got to write any production software using it. 
Whenever I sat down to write something serious I got bogged down in choices and 
syntax details and "bridging" over to other C# libraries to do the heavy 
lifting. There were lots of other irritations like long searches for good 
samples, less tooling, less (and bewildering) documentation, smaller community, 
lack of T4 templates, etc. If I were writing lots of algorithmic code then F# 
would be a superior choice and all the "bridging" would be pushed to the edges, 
but lots of typical LOB coding is best done in C#.

C# has evolved so far now that it must be the best hybrid language in popular 
use by a long shot, and its functional features are deflating F#'s functional 
fame. The downside is that C# is accumulating so many features that I can't 
remember them all, so I'm thankful when Visual Studio light bulbs appear and 
remind me to replace my force-of-habit clumsy code. I hope they ease off on new 
C# features in the future, I don't want it to turn into C++ 20/23 or 
PL/I<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/I> (the language that was going to solve 
every problem in the world).

Cheers, Greg K

P.S. What happened to VB.NET<http://VB.NET>? No sarcasm, it just seems to have 
dropped out of articles and announcements.

RE: It's that time of year - F#

[Dr Greg Low]

Announcements like these were pretty terminal I’d say:

https://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2020/03/12/vb-in-net-5.aspx


Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | 
About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low

From: Greg Keogh 
Sent: Wednesday, 29 June 2022 11:21 AM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: David Burstin ; David Kean 
; Dr Greg Low 
Subject: Re: It's that time of year - F#

Mind you, there have been many interesting languages over the years. And their 
fate has not always seemed logical.

I think a year ago I said something like ... I was excited about F# when it 
first came out, but never got to write any production software using it. 
Whenever I sat down to write something serious I got bogged down in choices and 
syntax details and "bridging" over to other C# libraries to do the heavy 
lifting. There were lots of other irritations like long searches for good 
samples, less tooling, less (and bewildering) documentation, smaller community, 
lack of T4 templates, etc. If I were writing lots of algorithmic code then F# 
would be a superior choice and all the "bridging" would be pushed to the edges, 
but lots of typical LOB coding is best done in C#.

C# has evolved so far now that it must be the best hybrid language in popular 
use by a long shot, and its functional features are deflating F#'s functional 
fame. The downside is that C# is accumulating so many features that I can't 
remember them all, so I'm thankful when Visual Studio light bulbs appear and 
remind me to replace my force-of-habit clumsy code. I hope they ease off on new 
C# features in the future, I don't want it to turn into C++ 20/23 or 
PL/I<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/I> (the language that was going to solve 
every problem in the world).

Cheers, Greg K

P.S. What happened to VB.NET<http://VB.NET>? No sarcasm, it just seems to have 
dropped out of articles and announcements.

Re: It's that time of year - F#

[Greg Keogh]

>
> Mind you, there have been many interesting languages over the years. And
> their fate has not always seemed logical.
>

I think a year ago I said something like ... I was excited about F# when it
first came out, but never got to write any production software using it.
Whenever I sat down to write something serious I got bogged down in choices
and syntax details and "bridging" over to other C# libraries to do the
heavy lifting. There were lots of other irritations like long searches for
good samples, less tooling, less (and bewildering) documentation, smaller
community, lack of T4 templates, etc. If I were writing lots of algorithmic
code then F# would be a superior choice and all the "bridging" would be
pushed to the edges, but lots of typical LOB coding is best done in C#.

C# has evolved so far now that it must be the best hybrid language in
popular use by a long shot, and its functional features are deflating F#'s
functional fame. The downside is that C# is accumulating so many features
that I can't remember them all, so I'm thankful when Visual Studio light
bulbs appear and remind me to replace my force-of-habit clumsy code. I hope
they ease off on new C# features in the future, I don't want it to turn
into C++ 20/23 or PL/I  (the language
that was going to solve every problem in the world).

Cheers, *Greg K*

P.S. What happened to VB.NET? No sarcasm, it just seems to have dropped out
of articles and announcements.

RE: It's that time of year - F#

[Dr Greg Low]

Hi David,

The one that’s always fascinated me is the disappearance of simulation 
languages.

In the 80’s I remember looking at Simula 68, and being amazed at what it 
offered. For something written in 68, having concepts like classes, and 
instances of classes, etc. was all pretty awesome. There were later versions of 
it as well.

The idea was that if you wanted to model, say, people coming to a counter to be 
processed, you’d define classes for each actor involved. (They didn’t call them 
actors). Then, the bit that I thought was magic, is that wherever you had a 
decision to be made (i.e. mostly there just an IF type of statement) in the 
code in each actor’s class, you specified not only the logic for the IF, but 
the odds of going in either direction.

Then you started it up, and just sat back and watched what happened. I thought 
that was gold, and certainly for someone doing that back in 68.

And I think about how hard it would be for me to just build that today, using 
current tools. So I’ve always wondered why they disappeared.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | 
About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low

From: David Burstin 
Sent: Wednesday, 29 June 2022 11:05 AM
To: Dr Greg Low 
Cc: ozDotNet ; David Kean 
Subject: Re: It's that time of year - F#

Thanks all. Greg, unfortunately you are spot on. The more I use F#, the more I 
see my productivity and quality naturally increase on my home projects, 
especially once they start to get a bit complicated. I have always been firmly 
in the C# camp, but now that I have a good understanding of F# I really 
appreciate the constructs like active pattern matching, pipelining and partial 
application. The compiler really does catch nearly all errors and I haven't had 
to crack out the debugger for quite a while. If I had a choice, F# would 
definitely be my preferred choice.

But, it is true that companies aren't using it. And understandably so - without 
a huge pool of developers the risks are enormous. It's a sad fact that for some 
languages "their fate does not always seem logical".

Has anyone here tried F#? What were your experiences? If not, was it just 
because no one else is using it (totally valid)?

Languages are like social media platforms - if no one is using it then no one 
wants to use it.

Thanks for the responses.



On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 at 09:33, Dr Greg Low 
mailto:g...@sqldownunder.com>> wrote:
It has to be a pretty “brave” or “interesting” choice for a dev team lead 
though doesn’t it ? (depending upon your perspective)

Unless you’re doing something really, really out of the ordinary, choosing to 
use a language where there’s even a possibility of an actual list of companies 
who use it would seem awfully hard to justify. Given there are 4 listed in 
Australia, and on average pretty small, I wonder how many of those did so 
because they wanted to find a place to use it. I’m sure there will be more, but 
even so, that’s quite something.

I certainly remember the hype when it appeared.

Mind you, there have been many interesting languages over the years. And their 
fate has not always seemed logical.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | 
About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low

From: David Kean via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, 29 June 2022 9:06 AM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: David Burstin mailto:david.burs...@gmail.com>>; 
David Kean mailto:david.k...@microsoft.com>>
Subject: RE: It's that time of year - F#

I asked Don and he pointed me to 
https://github.com/fsprojects/fsharp-companies, which lists a few.

From: David Kean via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2022 8:11 AM
To: David Burstin via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: David Burstin mailto:david.burs...@gmail.com>>; 
David Kean mailto:david.k...@microsoft.com>>
Subject: Re: It's that time of year - F#

I'll ask around and get back to you.


From: David Burstin via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 3:40 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: David Burstin mailto:david.burs...@gmail.com>>
Subject: It's that time of year - F#

Hi folks,

It's been about a year since I asked, so here it is again. Does anyone know of 
any F# work being done in Melbourne, or anywhere in Australia?

I've managed to do some small F# helper apps for my employer, but 98% of what I 
do is C#. I'd really love to find somewhere that uses F#.

On the plus side - F# has helped improve my C# approach dramatically, and C# is 
constantly introducing more functional ideas (although discriminated unions and 
active patterns would be lovely).

So, anyone know anything?

Cheers
David

Re: It's that time of year - F#

[Tony McGee]

A lot of the early advantages of F# have eventually come to C# over the 
years - higher order functions, immutability, type inference, pattern 
matching, etc so that can't be helping F# adoption.


I remember seeing a slide from MS Build several years back that 
indicated an order of magnitude fewer VB.NET developers than C#, and it 
was two orders of magnitude for F#. The original presentation escapes 
me, but I found the slide here with Eric Sink talking about F# in 2019: 
https://ericsink.com/entries/fsharp_incremental.html


-Tony


On 29/06/2022 09:33, Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet wrote:


It has to be a pretty “brave” or “interesting” choice for a dev team 
lead though doesn’t it ? (depending upon your perspective)


Unless you’re doing something really, really out of the ordinary, 
choosing to use a language where there’s even a possibility of an 
actual list of companies who use it would seem awfully hard to 
justify. Given there are 4 listed in Australia, and on average pretty 
small, I wonder how many of those did so because they wanted to find a 
place to use it. I’m sure there will be more, but even so, that’s 
quite something.


I certainly remember the hype when it appeared.

Mind you, there have been many interesting languages over the years. 
And their fate has not always seemed logical.


Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile

SQL Down Under| Web: https://sqldownunder.com 
<https://sqldownunder.com/>| About Greg:https://about.me/greg.low 
<https://about.me/greg.low>


*From:*David Kean via ozdotnet 
*Sent:* Wednesday, 29 June 2022 9:06 AM
*To:* ozDotNet 
*Cc:* David Burstin ; David Kean 


*Subject:* RE: It's that time of year - F#

I asked Don and he pointed me to 
https://github.com/fsprojects/fsharp-companies, which lists a few.


*From:*David Kean via ozdotnet 
*Sent:* Wednesday, June 29, 2022 8:11 AM
*To:* David Burstin via ozdotnet 
*Cc:* David Burstin ; David Kean 


*Subject:* Re: It's that time of year - F#

I'll ask around and get back to you.



*From:*David Burstin via ozdotnet 
*Sent:* Friday, June 24, 2022 3:40 PM
*To:* ozDotNet 
*Cc:* David Burstin 
*Subject:* It's that time of year - F#

Hi folks,

It's been about a year since I asked, so here it is again. Does anyone 
know of any F# work being done in Melbourne, or anywhere in Australia?


I've managed to do some small F# helper apps for my employer, but 98% 
of what I do is C#. I'd really love to find somewhere that uses F#.


On the plus side - F# has helped improve my C# approach dramatically, 
and C# is constantly introducing more functional ideas (although 
discriminated unions and active patterns would be lovely).


So, anyone know anything?

Cheers

David

Re: It's that time of year - F#

[David Burstin]

Thanks all. Greg, unfortunately you are spot on. The more I use F#, the
more I see my productivity and quality naturally increase on my home
projects, especially once they start to get a bit complicated. I have
always been firmly in the C# camp, but now that I have a good understanding
of F# I really appreciate the constructs like active pattern matching,
pipelining and partial application. The compiler really does catch nearly
all errors and I haven't had to crack out the debugger for quite a while.
If I had a choice, F# would definitely be my preferred choice.

But, it is true that companies aren't using it. And understandably so -
without a huge pool of developers the risks are enormous. It's a sad fact
that for some languages "their fate does not always seem logical".

Has anyone here tried F#? What were your experiences? If not, was it just
because no one else is using it (totally valid)?

Languages are like social media platforms - if no one is using it then no
one wants to use it.

Thanks for the responses.



On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 at 09:33, Dr Greg Low  wrote:

> It has to be a pretty “brave” or “interesting” choice for a dev team lead
> though doesn’t it ? (depending upon your perspective)
>
>
>
> Unless you’re doing something really, really out of the ordinary, choosing
> to use a language where there’s even a possibility of an actual list of
> companies who use it would seem awfully hard to justify. Given there are 4
> listed in Australia, and on average pretty small, I wonder how many of
> those did so because they wanted to find a place to use it. I’m sure there
> will be more, but even so, that’s quite something.
>
>
>
> I certainly remember the hype when it appeared.
>
>
>
> Mind you, there have been many interesting languages over the years. And
> their fate has not always seemed logical.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com | About Greg:
> https://about.me/greg.low
>
>
>
> *From:* David Kean via ozdotnet 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 29 June 2022 9:06 AM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* David Burstin ; David Kean <
> david.k...@microsoft.com>
> *Subject:* RE: It's that time of year - F#
>
>
>
> I asked Don and he pointed me to
> https://github.com/fsprojects/fsharp-companies, which lists a few.
>
>
>
> *From:* David Kean via ozdotnet 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 29, 2022 8:11 AM
> *To:* David Burstin via ozdotnet 
> *Cc:* David Burstin ; David Kean <
> david.k...@microsoft.com>
> *Subject:* Re: It's that time of year - F#
>
>
>
> I'll ask around and get back to you.
>
>
> --
>
> *From:* David Burstin via ozdotnet 
> *Sent:* Friday, June 24, 2022 3:40 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* David Burstin 
> *Subject:* It's that time of year - F#
>
>
>
> Hi folks,
>
>
>
> It's been about a year since I asked, so here it is again. Does anyone
> know of any F# work being done in Melbourne, or anywhere in Australia?
>
>
>
> I've managed to do some small F# helper apps for my employer, but 98% of
> what I do is C#. I'd really love to find somewhere that uses F#.
>
>
>
> On the plus side - F# has helped improve my C# approach dramatically, and
> C# is constantly introducing more functional ideas (although discriminated
> unions and active patterns would be lovely).
>
>
>
> So, anyone know anything?
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> David
>

RE: It's that time of year - F#

[Dr Greg Low]

It has to be a pretty "brave" or "interesting" choice for a dev team lead 
though doesn't it ? (depending upon your perspective)

Unless you're doing something really, really out of the ordinary, choosing to 
use a language where there's even a possibility of an actual list of companies 
who use it would seem awfully hard to justify. Given there are 4 listed in 
Australia, and on average pretty small, I wonder how many of those did so 
because they wanted to find a place to use it. I'm sure there will be more, but 
even so, that's quite something.

I certainly remember the hype when it appeared.

Mind you, there have been many interesting languages over the years. And their 
fate has not always seemed logical.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | 
About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low

From: David Kean via ozdotnet 
Sent: Wednesday, 29 June 2022 9:06 AM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: David Burstin ; David Kean 

Subject: RE: It's that time of year - F#

I asked Don and he pointed me to 
https://github.com/fsprojects/fsharp-companies, which lists a few.

From: David Kean via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2022 8:11 AM
To: David Burstin via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: David Burstin mailto:david.burs...@gmail.com>>; 
David Kean mailto:david.k...@microsoft.com>>
Subject: Re: It's that time of year - F#

I'll ask around and get back to you.


From: David Burstin via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 3:40 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: David Burstin mailto:david.burs...@gmail.com>>
Subject: It's that time of year - F#

Hi folks,

It's been about a year since I asked, so here it is again. Does anyone know of 
any F# work being done in Melbourne, or anywhere in Australia?

I've managed to do some small F# helper apps for my employer, but 98% of what I 
do is C#. I'd really love to find somewhere that uses F#.

On the plus side - F# has helped improve my C# approach dramatically, and C# is 
constantly introducing more functional ideas (although discriminated unions and 
active patterns would be lovely).

So, anyone know anything?

Cheers
David

RE: It's that time of year - F#

[David Kean]

I asked Don and he pointed me to 
https://github.com/fsprojects/fsharp-companies, which lists a few.

From: David Kean via ozdotnet 
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2022 8:11 AM
To: David Burstin via ozdotnet 
Cc: David Burstin ; David Kean 

Subject: Re: It's that time of year - F#

I'll ask around and get back to you.


From: David Burstin via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 3:40 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: David Burstin mailto:david.burs...@gmail.com>>
Subject: It's that time of year - F#

Hi folks,

It's been about a year since I asked, so here it is again. Does anyone know of 
any F# work being done in Melbourne, or anywhere in Australia?

I've managed to do some small F# helper apps for my employer, but 98% of what I 
do is C#. I'd really love to find somewhere that uses F#.

On the plus side - F# has helped improve my C# approach dramatically, and C# is 
constantly introducing more functional ideas (although discriminated unions and 
active patterns would be lovely).

So, anyone know anything?

Cheers
David

Re: It's that time of year - F#

[David Kean]

I'll ask around and get back to you.


From: David Burstin via ozdotnet 
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 3:40 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: David Burstin 
Subject: It's that time of year - F#

Hi folks,

It's been about a year since I asked, so here it is again. Does anyone know of 
any F# work being done in Melbourne, or anywhere in Australia?

I've managed to do some small F# helper apps for my employer, but 98% of what I 
do is C#. I'd really love to find somewhere that uses F#.

On the plus side - F# has helped improve my C# approach dramatically, and C# is 
constantly introducing more functional ideas (although discriminated unions and 
active patterns would be lovely).

So, anyone know anything?

Cheers
David