RE: Preparations for a Vote
Stephen, I am still watching the list. But due to lack of documentation (as many others have mentioned) I was not able to catch up with your work. I did make an effort to trace the code, but it is very involved. Suffice to say, I did not get too far, especially when it gets to widgets and events. P5EE or P5WE: I think most of us are doing the WE part. So if P5EEx can address the need of P5WE, it is good enough for the beginners (even enterprise beginners). I would like to see the following: (not sure P5EEx::Blue has done it) 1. Smart handling of session and authentication 2. Clear separation of presentation layer and business logic layer. 3. Easy construction of business object, furthermore, abstraction of database objects. Once these are in place, then we can address the interaction between server via messaging, directory, persistent objects, load balancing, failover, transaction, etc. One practical question would be: How do we test P5EE? Any input? Steve Lihn FIS Database Support, Merck Co., Inc. Tel: (908) 423 - 4441 -Original Message- From: Stephen Adkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 12:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Preparations for a Vote Hi, It has been six months since this P5EE list was started. Of all that interest that was generated, there is one serious candidate code base for the P5EE - P5EEx::Blue. http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee/organization.html http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee/activity.html Now I want to ratify P5EEx::Blue as the P5EE code base. Then I want to organize those who wish to contribute so that we can get this framework fleshed out and on to Release 1.0. In preparation for a vote, I am requesting input from *everyone* on this list who engages in web application development or anything approximating enterprise development. Here are the questions: 1. Do you know enough about P5EEx::Blue to vote for it to become the P5EE code base? If not, what more do you need to know? What are the attributes of a code base that would cause you to vote for it to be the P5EE code base? 2. If a P5EE code base exists, will you use it? What would it need to do for you in order for you to use it? * I am assuming that 99% of the people on this list would like to see the vision of P5EE become a reality. * And even if you are still skeptical that it will really happen, I assume that you are supportive of those trying to make it happen. P5EEx::Blue is not ready to be called P5EE-1.0. However, it has proven itself as a viable framework which can be enhanced and extended in many ways to achieve a wide variety of goals. I believe it is ready to be called P5EE-0.1. So far I have proven to myself that it * supports mod_perl and CGI, and could support any other runtime context I can imagine * supports every platform Perl runs on, in every configuration I could think of (including unprivileged web hosting accounts at ISP's) * separates user interface logic (templates and widgets), business logic (entity widgets), and data access (repositories) * supports distributed Entity Widgets through a variety of schemes, either by value or by reference * ... the list goes on, but I will explain more in response to the responses to this mail ... I look forward to your responses. Stephen -- Notice: This e-mail message, together with any attachments, contains information of Merck Co., Inc. (Whitehouse Station, New Jersey, USA) that may be confidential, proprietary copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named on this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by e-mail and then delete it. ==
Re: Preparations for a Vote
At 12:27 PM 5/11/2002 -0400, Stephen Adkins wrote: Hi, In preparation for a vote, I am requesting input from *everyone* on this list who engages in web application development or anything approximating enterprise development. I am being deafened by silence. So here is an additional qualification for voting: You must respond to my message (your answers may be brief) and/or participate in this discussion in order to qualify to vote later (I reserve the right make exceptions, but they will need to be for good reasons). I have actually gotten three off-list responses. Please respond via the list rather than privately. None of the people who showed great interest at the outset of this project have responded. (I guess the 6 month delay chased away everyone who showed initial interest.) We are not deterred. The P5EE bandwagon rolls on. Stephen
Re: Preparations for a Vote
Stephen Adkins wrote: We are not deterred. The P5EE bandwagon rolls on. perhaps you need a little more patience. analyzing a piece of enterprise scale software is not going to be a 5 minute job. not a good answer, but it preserves my right to vote. i had relatives die for that privilege. ;-) -- ___cliff [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.genwax.com/
Re: Preparations for a Vote
On Tuesday 14 May 2002 11:35 pm, Stephen Adkins wrote: At 12:27 PM 5/11/2002 -0400, Stephen Adkins wrote: Hi, In preparation for a vote, I am requesting input from *everyone* on this list who engages in web application development or anything approximating enterprise development. I am being deafened by silence. So here is an additional qualification for voting: You must respond to my message (your answers may be brief) and/or participate in this discussion in order to qualify to vote later (I reserve the right make exceptions, but they will need to be for good reasons). I have actually gotten three off-list responses. Please respond via the list rather than privately. None of the people who showed great interest at the outset of this project have responded. (I guess the 6 month delay chased away everyone who showed initial interest.) We are not deterred. The P5EE bandwagon rolls on. I had a brief look at the code, but gave up when I saw that there were no tests. Sorry, but that's as far as I got. Then real life took over ;-) Matt.
Re: Preparations for a Vote
Given that no one else is working on a code base for P5EE I think Blue wins (if they are they're keeping it a secret). Other than that I've only played with the demos - no time to really examine code unfortunately - it's great right??? M -- Mark Ethan Trostler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computing Solutions http://www.zzo.com -- On Tue, 14 May 2002, Stephen Adkins wrote: At 12:27 PM 5/11/2002 -0400, Stephen Adkins wrote: Hi, In preparation for a vote, I am requesting input from *everyone* on this list who engages in web application development or anything approximating enterprise development. I am being deafened by silence. So here is an additional qualification for voting: You must respond to my message (your answers may be brief) and/or participate in this discussion in order to qualify to vote later (I reserve the right make exceptions, but they will need to be for good reasons). I have actually gotten three off-list responses. Please respond via the list rather than privately. None of the people who showed great interest at the outset of this project have responded. (I guess the 6 month delay chased away everyone who showed initial interest.) We are not deterred. The P5EE bandwagon rolls on. Stephen
Re: Preparations for a Vote
On Tue, 14 May 2002, Stephen Adkins wrote: We are not deterred. The P5EE bandwagon rolls on. here i am! In preparation for a vote, I am requesting input from *everyone* on this list who engages in web application development or anything approximating enterprise development. I have all the requirements :) 1. Do you know enough about P5EEx::Blue to vote for it to become the P5EE code base? If not, what more do you need to know? What are the attributes of a code base that would cause you to vote for it to be the P5EE code base? I don't know enough about your work; i should take a deeper look at your code, but at the moment money for food has the highest priority. I was searching something like your work, and also doing something like that in my spare time (but w/ different approach and less features). 2. If a P5EE code base exists, will you use it? What would it need to do for you in order for you to use it? Yes, but i need time to understand the whole thing. Is there somewhere in your documentation a complete documented example? I would be very pleased to read something and contribute images where needed. I believe it is ready to be called P5EE-0.1. IMHO +1 * separates user interface logic (templates and widgets), business logic (entity widgets), and data access (repositories) Last time i looked at your demo, i stopped understanding the code at widgets; a quick question: are templates also applicable to widgets? or should i live forever with the same look'n'feel? Repositories are really interesting things, but i couldn't understand if they are only for databases. Ciao, Valerio Valerio Paolini, http://130.136.3.200/~paolini -- So, they're attacking John Q. Public for giving copies of Windows to his friends, and all the while they've been _selling_ copies of other peoples' stuff? - James Jensen
Re: Preparations for a Vote
On Tue, May 14, 2002 at 06:35:52PM -0400, Stephen Adkins wrote: At 12:27 PM 5/11/2002 -0400, Stephen Adkins wrote: Hi, In preparation for a vote, I am requesting input from *everyone* on this list who engages in web application development or anything approximating enterprise development. I am being deafened by silence. [SFX: CRICKETS] So here is an additional qualification for voting: You must respond to my message (your answers may be brief) and/or participate in this discussion in order to qualify to vote later (I reserve the right make exceptions, but they will need to be for good reasons). I haven't had the opportunity to look at P5EE::Blue lately. Even then, I couldn't readily see how POE fits into it, or I'd have done some work in that direction. -- Rocco Caputo / [EMAIL PROTECTED] / poe.perl.org / poe.sf.net
Background: Preparations for a Vote
Hi, I think I need to provide a bit more background to frame the current discussion. * The concept of a framework for enterprise development in Perl (P5EE) could benefit many and shape the future of computing with Perl * As such, the effort should attract and include many talented Perl developers (such as expressed interest on this list when it was first created) There was lots of discussion. I became the defacto secretary/organizer/etc. because I listened carefully to all of the comments and tried to organize what people were saying. The result is the website at http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee After a while (obviously), all talk and no code made for some restlessness on the list. What emerged was the following road map for getting to P5EE-1.0. 1. Discuss what an Enterprise Framework in Perl would be 2. Document our Definitions 3. Prototype candidate code bases (P5EEx::Color::*) 4. Choose a code base (promote to P5EE::*) 5. Organize to drive it to release quality 6. Flesh out the code, tests, documentation 7. Release P5EE-1.0 We have done steps 1-3, and we are at step 4. (see recap below) It is pretty much obvious that P5EEx::Blue should be P5EE because there is no other serious prototype that has been proposed. I just didn't want to make that leap until I had proved to myself that I could answer the various questions/requirements with intelligent answers based on the framework. I also do not want to make the decision alone. I have sought at all times to proceed in the open, with an accompanying open process so that no one who wanted to contribute would be inhibited from doing so. So I am Preparing for a Vote to get people on this list re-engaged and to renew expectations that the time is ripe to get involved. Ultimately, the votes will be weighed, not counted, in accordance with the degree to which each voter wants to contribute. This is in order to build a meritocracy where the Contributors determine the direction of the project. http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg00206.html I have included an Historical Recap below. I will send out a P5EEx::Blue Summary later. Stephen - HISTORICAL RECAP OF THE P5EE PROJECT - 1. Discuss what an Enterprise Framework in Perl would be This happened (and continues to happen) on the mailing list. http://archive.develooper.com/p5ee%40perl.org/ 2. Document our Definitions We defined what a Perl 5 Enterprise Environment was and documented it on the web site. http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee/ http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee/definitions.html http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee/platform.html We catalogued all of the tools/techniques/technologies that people were using to solve the common problems in web application (and enterprise application) development. http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee/components.html 3. Prototype candidate code bases (P5EEx::Color::*) In preparation for this, we hammered out a style guide that we could all more or less agree on. http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee/software/htdocs/P5EEx/Blue/perlstyle.html I sought input from the list on documentation, and created some documentation conventions that would allow us to make our code more transparent. I wrote a documentation tool (perdocs) that creates high-quality documentation from the POD embedded in the code. http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee/software/htdocs/api/ We then proposed a process of prototyping the core of the new code base in the P5EEx::* namespaces. We assigned prototyping areas, and each person who wanted one did what they had time, interest, and energy to do. http://archive.develooper.com/p5ee%40perl.org/msg00206.html http://archive.develooper.com/p5ee%40perl.org/msg00314.html http://archive.develooper.com/p5ee%40perl.org/msg00327.html http://archive.develooper.com/p5ee%40perl.org/msg00355.html http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee/organization.html http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee/status.html http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee/activity.html I then set out to build P5EEx::Blue based on all of the input I had heard on the list. http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee/components.html I also kept in mind the target platforms and the architectural requirements (the Attributes of an Enterprise System). http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee/definitions.html http://www.officevision.com/pub/p5ee/platform.html Over the last 5 months, I wrote the P5EEx::Blue framework as my proposal for P5EE. (And it builds on several generations of similar software.) 4. Choose a code base (promote to P5EE::*) Now we are here, and I am trying to do this step in a way which engages the community in the best possible way.
Re: Preparations for a Vote
1. Do you know enough about P5EEx::Blue to vote for it to become the P5EE code base? If not, what more do you need to know? What are the attributes of a code base that would cause you to vote for it to be the P5EE code base? Similar to others, i have not audited/tested Blue much. Of course it looks promising, and there is a dearth of alternatives. I don't know if i could vote now, as a final spec/implementation, but it is mostly based on lack of direct experience. 2. If a P5EE code base exists, will you use it? What would it need to do for you in order for you to use it? For development testing, not much other than docs. For production, test suite is crucial. Esp. with another layer of code on top of base modules. Raul Goodness [EMAIL PROTECTED]
