Re: [PD] Multi-dimensional arrays
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 01:15:18PM -0500, Tedb0t wrote: I know this is one of those perennial questions that must come up regularly, but I simply cannot figure it out. What's a good way to store data in a 3-dimensional array? You can use three arrays, of coruse, or one and write your data in groups of three. The latter approach is attached. Ciao -- Frank BarknechtDo You RjDj.me? _ __footils.org__ tab-three-help.pd Description: application/puredata tabread-three.pd Description: application/puredata tabwrite-three.pd Description: application/puredata ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] Where to download PDDP manuals ?
Hello, In the windows version of pd-extended, there is some PDDP documentation (in doc/manual/ ), but I don't find it in the pd-exended sources. Where can I download it? Kind regards, Xavier Miller. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] sound card preferences
i need to tell a patch to select an external sound card when it loads. what's the most efficient method? flags? im on osx, pd-extended, card is a focusrite saffire pro 24. cheers ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pd quine?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/28/2011 08:12 PM, Tedb0t wrote: The thought just occurred to me... Has anyone ever made a Pd quine? Sounds like an interesting challenge... i once did a simple HQ9+ implementation. http://puredata.info/Members/zmoelnig/hq9/ fgasdr IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk1D9aQACgkQkX2Xpv6ydvQcKgCeJX2fQKR8Qhl5ZY+1fVNfGxLj fC8An3yk77kEuWp3jxLC0LyLzihoTalY =Hqih -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] IP address in windows?
Thank you both for your replies. As you can imagine i'm not at all comfortable with batch files. I know how to create one from a txt file, but that's about it. getip.bat doesn't work for me. Nothing happens. Even when i try this : @echo off for /F usebackq tokens=14 %%i in (`ipconfig ^| find /i IPv4`) do echo %%i pause and launch the script manually, nothing happens in the dos window (except hit a key to continue... or something). Of course it doesn't work any better in Pd. Is there something wrong with my version of windows? I have XP. By the way, when this works (i trust you!), do you think it'll work in any version of windows? Because i have XP but the friends i'm writing the game for have 7 of vista. Pierre 2011/1/29 patko colet.patr...@free.fr Hello Pierre, you can get ip adress with windows cmd In pd-extended there is [flatspace/popen] object for that, you need to create a file called 'getip.bat' containing those lines: @echo off for /F usebackq tokens=14 %%i in (`ipconfig ^| find /i IPv4`) do echo %%i and then you can grab the ip adress from the computer you are in by sending [getip.bat message to [popen] like this: [getip.bat | [flatspace/popen | symbol box both patch and batch files must be in the same directory, or put the batch file into pd/bin to run it from anywhere - Pedro Lopes pedro.lo...@ist.utl.pt a écrit : lame-solution Even if there's no shell/system object for windoes (I'm not using win so I cannot really answer) you can easily create a batch script (a windows shell script) that saves the output of ipconfig in a file. Then parse the file with pd and extract the ip from there. It can even by dynamic in the sense that your shell script can be a sort of cron (linux scheduled jobs, I think are called sheduled services in win) and can run a number of times. Thus your game could see the file for the lastest IP. /lame-solution On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 11:57 PM, Pierre Massat pimas...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Is it possible to get my computer's IP from inside Pd? I know it's possible in Linux using the shell object, but it doesn't exist in windows. I'm trying to make a game requiring two players to play on two different computers, and it'd be very annoying if each user had to find her IP before playing. Pierre ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Pedro Lopes (MSc) contact: pedro.lo...@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes / http://pedrolopesresearch.wordpress.com/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Patrice Colet ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] sound card preferences
You could use the -audiodev flag ( http://en.flossmanuals.net/PureData/AdvancedConfig) but I never used it on Mac, so I'm not sure whether it is appliable; with flags you could also specify sound servers/API to playback with. So another solution could just be to use jack (I usually reccommend to install jack on Mac for better flexibility and efficiency). Then you would start jack with an appropriate profile and Pd with -jack and -channels flag and you're done. http://freefr.dl.sourceforge.net/project/jackosx/JackOSX/0.87/JackOSX.0.87.Documentation.pdf best, Marco i need to tell a patch to select an external sound card when it loads. what's the most efficient method? flags? im on osx, pd-extended, card is a focusrite saffire pro 24. cheers -- Marco Donnarumma aka TheSAD Independent New Media Arts Professional, Performer, Teacher Ongoing MSc by Research, University of Edinburgh, UK PORTFOLIO: http://marcodonnarumma.com LAB: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net EVENT: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Multi-dimensional arrays
I havn't tried store, but you can always use multiple arrays with the same index, IE (arrays) pos-X, pos-Y, pos-Z [counter] | \\[tabread pos-X] [tabread pos-Y] [tabread pos-Z] I know that ascii hasn't come across very well, but it basically translates to multiple dimentions called up by the same index Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 13:20:41 -0500 From: ma...@artengine.ca To: li...@liminastudio.com CC: pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] Multi-dimensional arrays On Fri, 28 Jan 2011, Tedb0t wrote: I know this is one of those perennial questions that must come up regularly, but I simply cannot figure it out. What's a good way to store data in a 3-dimensional array? [#store] supports 3-dimensional arrays, as well as 2-dimensional, 1-dimensional, 0-dimensional, 4-dimensional, 5-dimensional... apparently it can support up to 14-dimensional, but I never tried. It's not arrays in exactly the same sense as in the base of pd, though. http://gridflow.ca/ ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] spinning sounds around the listener
Hello, im working on a installation and i need to simulate the effect of spinning sounds around the listener. Each sound is spinning around a different center point which are located around the listener. Ive made this pic so you can understand better: http://www.zshare.net/image/8587193340809633/ So my question is : Do anybody have tried something like this in pd? Is it possible to achieve this kind of effect using 2 speakers? If not , which speaker configuration and synthesis approach do you recommend me to achieve this goal? thanks R. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pd quine?
This is awesome!! You should add it to the wikipedia page on Quines ^_^ :) True! 2011/1/29 IOhannes m zmölnig zmoel...@iem.at -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/28/2011 08:12 PM, Tedb0t wrote: The thought just occurred to me... Has anyone ever made a Pd quine? Sounds like an interesting challenge... i once did a simple HQ9+ implementation. http://puredata.info/Members/zmoelnig/hq9/ fgasdr IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk1D9aQACgkQkX2Xpv6ydvQcKgCeJX2fQKR8Qhl5ZY+1fVNfGxLj fC8An3yk77kEuWp3jxLC0LyLzihoTalY =Hqih -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Pedro Lopes (MSc) contact: pedro.lo...@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes / http://pedrolopesresearch.wordpress.com/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] spinning sounds around the listener
Yes spinning is easily done with ambipan~ for instance. Since you have control of the radius (sound distnace) and angle (rotation), the way that you vary the angle variable determines the speed of course. This can be simulated with two speakers only, for example with binaural rendering of the audio. With ITD (see the list) the ears are tricked into believing that the sound arrives from a certain position. What I found in my implementations, installations, papers is that all this works better with HRTF models, this means: you know where the head of the users is. How to do that? OpenCv Head Tracking, IR tracking system with rigid bodys (by far the best), and recently Microsoft Kinect. Best regards, Pedro On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 1:10 PM, ronni montoya ronni.mont...@gmail.comwrote: Hello, im working on a installation and i need to simulate the effect of spinning sounds around the listener. Each sound is spinning around a different center point which are located around the listener. Ive made this pic so you can understand better: http://www.zshare.net/image/8587193340809633/ So my question is : Do anybody have tried something like this in pd? Is it possible to achieve this kind of effect using 2 speakers? If not , which speaker configuration and synthesis approach do you recommend me to achieve this goal? thanks R. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Pedro Lopes (MSc) contact: pedro.lo...@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes / http://pedrolopesresearch.wordpress.com/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Multi-dimensional arrays
On Sat, 29 Jan 2011, Andrew Faraday wrote: I havn't tried store, but you can always use multiple arrays with the same index, IE (arrays) pos-X, pos-Y, pos-Z I know that ascii hasn't come across very well, but it basically translates to multiple dimentions called up by the same index Ok, I don't think Tedb0t meant that. In your case, you have multiple dimensions in the space in which you pick each value. The normal meaning of 3-dimensional array is an array in which the indices have three dimensions. So, in your case, the data has 2 dimensions of indices, the latter dimension being used to pick X,Y,Z. if it's a numbered dimension, 0 may stand for X, 1 for Y, and 2 for Z. In our case, if the first dimension of indices has 50 possibilities, and the 2nd has 240 possibilities, and the 3rd has 320 possibilities, there are 50*240*320 = 384 elements that need to be put somewhere, and I don't think we'd like to spread that over too many arrays. Your concept of dimension is often called channel instead of dimension in GridFlow, such as the R,G,B channels of a colour picture (or Y,U,V channels, etc.). But many GridFlow object-classes don't know what's a channel, and don't need to know. In any case, a single structure contains all channels, numbered. Thus it's easy to have any number of channels, even a million. ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Multi-dimensional arrays
On Sat, 29 Jan 2011, Frank Barknecht wrote: On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 01:15:18PM -0500, Tedb0t wrote: I know this is one of those perennial questions that must come up regularly, but I simply cannot figure it out. What's a good way to store data in a 3-dimensional array? You can use three arrays, of coruse, or one and write your data in groups of three. The latter approach is attached. See my previous mail (a few minutes ago) so that you learn what is normally meant when one says N-dimensional array. ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-Announce] Brussels Pure Data Patching circle - Okno - 30 Jan 2011 - reminder
On Wed, 26 Jan 2011, Olm-e wrote: mailing list : http://okno.be/mailman/listinfo/circles Why is it that no messages seem to have been ever posted yet on that mailing-list ? (what is it for ?) ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Multi-dimensional arrays
Thanks for the responses everyone; I've been using gridflow and after a rocky start I've figured out what seems to be a pretty efficient solution, based around [#store] and [#many]. I'll be putting the patch up online very soon! ±±t3db0t On Jan 29, 2011, at 10:27 AM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: On Sat, 29 Jan 2011, Andrew Faraday wrote: I havn't tried store, but you can always use multiple arrays with the same index, IE (arrays) pos-X, pos-Y, pos-Z I know that ascii hasn't come across very well, but it basically translates to multiple dimentions called up by the same index Ok, I don't think Tedb0t meant that. In your case, you have multiple dimensions in the space in which you pick each value. The normal meaning of 3-dimensional array is an array in which the indices have three dimensions. So, in your case, the data has 2 dimensions of indices, the latter dimension being used to pick X,Y,Z. if it's a numbered dimension, 0 may stand for X, 1 for Y, and 2 for Z. In our case, if the first dimension of indices has 50 possibilities, and the 2nd has 240 possibilities, and the 3rd has 320 possibilities, there are 50*240*320 = 384 elements that need to be put somewhere, and I don't think we'd like to spread that over too many arrays. Your concept of dimension is often called channel instead of dimension in GridFlow, such as the R,G,B channels of a colour picture (or Y,U,V channels, etc.). But many GridFlow object-classes don't know what's a channel, and don't need to know. In any case, a single structure contains all channels, numbered. Thus it's easy to have any number of channels, even a million. ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] standard encoding of pd files in each system?
On Fri, 28 Jan 2011, Bryan Jurish wrote: iirc, Miller has indicated in the past that he feels this sort of thing should be done using arrays. But a feeling is but a feeling. Now, how about a justification ? But that's not the sort of thing one gets from Miller often. (B) you must scale all size attributes (e.g. for re-allocation) by 1.0/sizeof(t_float), so to get an accurate byte length that is not a multiple of sizeof(t_float), you need to actually store that length additionally somewhere else sizeof(t_float) is always a power of two, isn't it ? I haven't heard of anyone using 80-bit or 96-bit floats as t_float or t_sample. thus a size stored as float will be accurate up to 16777216. This is regardless of whether you store size*4, size, or size/4 : floats are quite scale-independent, but are perfectly so when the scalings are powers of two (provided you don't overflow by scaling by pow(2,128) or so) I think you could read a bit about the IEEE-754 standard : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_754 But especially some kind of short, direct tutorial that will make it obvious what won't be rounded and what will be : http://kipirvine.com/asm/workbook/floating_tut.htm (C) saving array data with a patch and re-loading can cause data loss (float truncation may mess up raw byte values) for integers, all values from -100 to 100 will be correctly saved (those two bounds will be encoded as -1e+6 and 1e+6, and all the rest will look like plain integers). (D) it's not really portable (byte order problems with load/save) byte order problems won't happen with floats saved as text. they will happen with floats saved as binary. they will also happen with UCS-2 text saved as two floats per code point (no matter how you save the floats), but if you use UTF-8 instead, or if you use one-float-per-codepoint, that aspect will be safe. 2) If otoh you let the array remain a t_float* and just assign the floats byte ((unsigned) char) or even wide character (wchar) values, then: (A) you potentially waste a lot of memory (strlen(str)*(sizeof(float)-1) bytes) In 2011, wasting a lot of RAM is not a problem. Wasting too much RAM can be a problem, and that's very relative, as quite often, the solution is to wait until RAM is less expensive. I like the idea of not wasting any RAM, but I recognise that this is because I got used to think about ways to reduce waste, not because it's always good to worry about it. Text is usually a lot smaller than video. It's not uncommon for me to store a buffer of 64 frames of video in colour. In 640x480, that's over 55 megs, and that's tiny compared to the total amount of RAM the computer has. How often do you need that much text at once in RAM ? (C) if you really want to store your string data in an array, you can use [str] or [pdstring] together with e.g. [tabdump] and [tabset] from zexy, which just makes the conversion overhead explicit. GridFlow's grids support the byte format (unsigned char). This is one of the six allowed grid formats, and perhaps the 2nd most used (after signed int). I think there are workarounds for both techniques, but not without patching the pd core code, and if we're going to patch the core code, we might as well take a patch that does the job right (i.e. Martin's)... If all of this can work as externals without hairy workarounds, then you don't need to be obsessing about patching pd's core code, and that's a good thing, especially if you aim to be patching vanilla's. ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] XmiX
Very neat and tidy! It would be nice to integrate a good selection of sequencers into this. Perhaps some of the ones from netpd could be converted for this purpose? ~Kyle On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:32 AM, Gabbroral Complex mag-...@autistici.orgwrote: hi, new revision, checked on OSX and Windows: http://puredata.info/Members/gabbro http://mag-one.noblogs.org/xmix bye, mag-one -- http://mag-one.noblogs.org On 01/24/2011 03:13 AM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: Worked like a charm, now I can just open the -gui.pd patch and it just worked! I like the sliders, the whole look is quite cool. .hc On Mon, 2011-01-24 at 01:32 +0100, Gabbroral Complex wrote: hi, I put the paths declarations out of the shell script and added them in patches with [declare]. Now everything works even when opened via Pd without using the script. check the new rev.176 if you pleased: http://puredata.info/Members/gabbro/XmiX-rev176.tar.bz2/at_download/file Thanks a lot, :) Mag-ONE On 01/23/2011 08:17 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: Looks interesting, but I didn't get it running. I recommend using [declare] to set the paths rather than a shell script, that way it'll work on all platforms, and it will work when someone just opens the patch via Pd rather than running a shell script. You could have something like [declare -path ../x_ABS] .hc On Jan 22, 2011, at 3:31 PM, Gabbroral Complex wrote: hi, after two years of lurkin'n'coding I wrote XmiX, a full OSC oriented 8 tracks environment with client/server architecture over TCP/IP: http://puredata.info/Members/gabbro http://mag-one.noblogs.org/xmix hope you like it, :) mag-one ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list A cellphone to me is just an opportunity to be irritated wherever you are. - Linus Torvalds ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] pd quine?
That could almost be the start of a Pd-based virus. ~Kyle 2011/1/29 Pedro Lopes pedro.lo...@ist.utl.pt This is awesome!! You should add it to the wikipedia page on Quines ^_^ :) True! 2011/1/29 IOhannes m zmölnig zmoel...@iem.at -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/28/2011 08:12 PM, Tedb0t wrote: The thought just occurred to me... Has anyone ever made a Pd quine? Sounds like an interesting challenge... i once did a simple HQ9+ implementation. http://puredata.info/Members/zmoelnig/hq9/ fgasdr IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk1D9aQACgkQkX2Xpv6ydvQcKgCeJX2fQKR8Qhl5ZY+1fVNfGxLj fC8An3yk77kEuWp3jxLC0LyLzihoTalY =Hqih -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Pedro Lopes (MSc) contact: pedro.lo...@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes / http://pedrolopesresearch.wordpress.com/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] Am I alone?
Well in my opinion most electroacoustic shit is all surrealist/dadaist crap. The people involved try too hard to be the electronic version of John Cage, it's quite annoying. In fact, I'm so against it that I'm going to come up with a parody album with actual good dance music that uses elements of the academic code geek norm with real electronic music that have titles like computer scientists make for very bad musicians and chainsaw in a cave, recorded 6 feet down In all seriousness though, i like the science. However, I believe that just because it's accepted academically doesn't mean that it will put you ahead of everyone else nor do I like/take part in the elitism that follows which is ten times worse. I read the CCRMA and IRCAM articles/publications, use Max, Csound, ChucK, and all of that jazz. I even read the Pd/Max/Csound/Chuck mailing lists too but I choose to make actual music with those tools. I use Renoise for sequencing because it can send open sound control data to the extra stuff, then I multitrack it in whatever DAW I feel like using that day whether it's Pro Tools, Live, Logic, DP, or whatever really. Most of what I make is just normal synthesis stuff, like what you would get out of a synth/workstation anyways but I like the fact that I made what I'm using, or heavily modified it if it was sampled. An off subjerct example but relative is the guys with modular synthesizers. You can go to youtube and see videos with these guys with big huge multithousand dollar Buchla synthesizers and they make this repetitive crap that sounds like it came from lost in space. Then, they just keep turning knobs and it's the same thing for five minutes. It's like, wtf is that trash nobody is going to listen to that... The technical ability to program synths is great, and I love people who take the time to be scientific about their sound but to me the whole entire point of music is about being technical with a control present. You can look at all of the great classical composers, marching band composers, composers/musicians on labels and find the same thing. If I was to go to school to study music and electronics, and figured out that I can get a plastic drum, destroy an alarm clock to make a contact microphone, and do some basic signal processing I can do much the same thing then I would be asking serious questions. I guess for someone who's learning, that stuff is fine but these big institutions who teach music already require one to take proper music courses in primary school yet we find 5 minute 20 hz drones everywhere with some white noise. Are the teachers assigning this stuff? Are they mad? I grew up in a super small area in Washington state and I've never been to college so I wouldn't know but what comes out of this circle is baffling. Perhaps it was just the way I was musically brought up, I don't know. I had a crazy band teacher in primary school who would flunk you if you didn't show up to any of the performances, and dock your grade if you didn't practice so many hours a week that had to be logged and signed by a parent. Plus, you had all the standard music theory stuff, tests on melodic, chromatic, harmonic scales, sometimes the odd ones too, inversions, chords, and so forth. My mom would listen to Van Halen, Stevie Ray Vaughn and Bluegrass music which in my opinion is very technical. I was into house and dance when I was in my preteens to late teens and my mother used to always say that stuff isn't music because it repeats too much. Eventually I saw her wisdom and started listening to lots of Prog Rock and Aphex Twin, Radiohead, Industrial Metal, and stuff like that and it totally changed my view. I think it's all too easy to get caught up in the technology behind production, and leave the good stuff out. Most of the stuff, including my own that's made with computers just doesn't have that same feel even after I spent 8 hours programming complex drum patterns note by note in a numeric based step sequencer. However, in my case my own musical control would be the simple math that makes up harmony and melody. Some however can defy this and still make good music, like Sonic Youth for instance or other people who have experimental music actually published on a reputable experimental label. There's still structure there, what is up with this other post-modernist stuff? Shouldn't artistic enrichment be the goal? Did I miss the boat? To me, music is controlled noise. You can make a math equation based on chaos theory and apply it to a sequence, but then it becomes noise. You can destroy all sense of scale and timing, but then it becomes noise. I mean, i can sit there on a synth patch and make noise for 8 hours or I could just go write a song. Personally, I'll choose to write the song. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] standard encoding of pd files in each system?
moin Mathieu, moin all, On 2011-01-29 17:12:02, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca appears to have written: On Fri, 28 Jan 2011, Bryan Jurish wrote: iirc, Miller has indicated in the past that he feels this sort of thing should be done using arrays. But a feeling is but a feeling. Now, how about a justification ? But that's not the sort of thing one gets from Miller often. (B) you must scale all size attributes (e.g. for re-allocation) by 1.0/sizeof(t_float), so to get an accurate byte length that is not a multiple of sizeof(t_float), you need to actually store that length additionally somewhere else sizeof(t_float) is always a power of two, isn't it ? I haven't heard of anyone using 80-bit or 96-bit floats as t_float or t_sample. thus a size stored as float will be accurate up to 16777216. This is regardless of whether you store size*4, size, or size/4 : floats are quite scale-independent, but are perfectly so when the scalings are powers of two (provided you don't overflow by scaling by pow(2,128) or so) I think you could read a bit about the IEEE-754 standard : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_754 But especially some kind of short, direct tutorial that will make it obvious what won't be rounded and what will be : http://kipirvine.com/asm/workbook/floating_tut.htm Yup, all freely stipulated. My issue was not so much with the use of floats qua floats to store size data, rather the necessity of storing size data *in addition to* the size reported by the array itself. In this scenario, we're blatantly re-casting the array's (t_float*) into a (char*) and reading/writing raw bytes. But maybe we don't want C-style NUL-terminated strings, but rather perl-ish (or Berkeley DB-ish) strings which admit embedded NULs and store their length in an additional dedicated attribute (usually an unsigned int, but sure, we could use a float if we wanted). The problem is that if we (ab)use the existing garray API (garray_getfloatarray(), garray_npoints(), garray_resize()) to do this, then the sizes reported for the array may be longer than the size of the string. My system uses 32-bit floats, and say I want a string foo (without terminating NUL). Well, foo takes up less than the space of 1 float (3 bytes 4 bytes), but garray_npoints() for a float array of size 1 is going to give me 1, and 1*sizeof(float) = 4 3, so if I want to implement strings this way, I've got to fiddle around with some additional convention for storing their actual length. It looks as if the whole garray stuff is defined abstractly enough to handle more than just plain float arrays, but I haven't dug deep enough to figure out what exactly those (t_template*)s are all about or how I might be able to (ab)use them... (C) saving array data with a patch and re-loading can cause data loss (float truncation may mess up raw byte values) for integers, all values from -100 to 100 will be correctly saved (those two bounds will be encoded as -1e+6 and 1e+6, and all the rest will look like plain integers). Yes. See above re: char *s; garray_getfloatarray(a,size,(float **)s); (D) it's not really portable (byte order problems with load/save) byte order problems won't happen with floats saved as text. they will happen with floats saved as binary. they will also happen with UCS-2 text saved as two floats per code point (no matter how you save the floats), but if you use UTF-8 instead, or if you use one-float-per-codepoint, that aspect will be safe. No. See above. Messing about with typecasts is very implementation-dependent, and afaik IEEE-754 doesn't define how its components are to be implemented, only the formal criteria an implementation must satisfy. 2) If otoh you let the array remain a t_float* and just assign the floats byte ((unsigned) char) or even wide character (wchar) values, then: (A) you potentially waste a lot of memory (strlen(str)*(sizeof(float)-1) bytes) In 2011, wasting a lot of RAM is not a problem. Wasting too much RAM can be a problem, and that's very relative, as quite often, the solution is to wait until RAM is less expensive. I like the idea of not wasting any RAM, but I recognise that this is because I got used to think about ways to reduce waste, not because it's always good to worry about it. Text is usually a lot smaller than video. It's not uncommon for me to store a buffer of 64 frames of video in colour. In 640x480, that's over 55 megs, and that's tiny compared to the total amount of RAM the computer has. How often do you need that much text at once in RAM ? Stipulated for most purposes. Taking ratts as an example, the CMU dictionary is only 3.5M, the beep dictionary is 7.6M. The non-free German dictionary BOMP is still only 9.1M. I agree that none of this is going to make the cabbage any fatter, as a saying here goes. In other work, I need much more data. The morphology transducer I use is 153M stored offline. (and more at
Re: [PD] Am I alone?
That's a pretty pompous writeup. Why don't you just post a link to your work instead of making broad generalizations about other un-specified material? Ben Baker-Smith -- http://bitsynthesis.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Am I alone?
On 1/29/11 12:16 PM, Josh Moore wrote: Well in my opinion most electroacoustic shit is all surrealist/dadaist crap. The people involved try too hard to be the electronic version of John Cage, it's quite annoying. In fact, I'm so against it that I'm going to come up with a parody album with actual good dance music that uses elements of the academic code geek norm with real electronic music that have titles like computer scientists make for very bad musicians and chainsaw in a cave, recorded 6 feet down Rest of polemic deleted for brevity's sake You're certainly going way out on a limb with that position -- I mean, how brave of you to take up the mantle of champion for poor, defenseless good dance music. If it weren't for experimentalists, the tools used by pop musicians to make good dance music wouldn't exist in the first place. If you don't like the compositions made by experimentalists, don't listen to them, but you haven't come up with a compelling argument for the innate superiority of the music you happen to find enjoyable, merely a rather juvenile list of pejoratives for that which doesn't happen to appeal to your taste. By the way, it is considered bad nettiquette to cross-post to several lists like this. I have limited my reply to one list. Phil Stone www.pkstonemusic.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Am I alone?
Are you alone? On this list, probably :) Next question: is this a troll bot? If so, it's pretty cool. I wonder if it's authored in csound, max, chuck or pd? JS ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] IP address in windows?
I've tried on windows vista it works like a charm: Microsoft Windows [version 6.0.6002] Copyright (c) 2006 Microsoft Corporation. Tous droits réservés. C:\Users\patkogetip.bat 192.168.0.21 --- Please check with 'ipconfig' command into cmd prompt if your computer has an IPv4 adress. In pd patch the ip adress is displayed into symbol atom, no need to add 'pause' command, maybe you could try also on your friend's computer, I'll try to find a xp machine to see what's happening. - Pierre Massat pimas...@gmail.com a écrit : Thank you both for your replies. As you can imagine i'm not at all comfortable with batch files. I know how to create one from a txt file, but that's about it. getip.bat doesn't work for me. Nothing happens. Even when i try this : @echo off for /F usebackq tokens=14 %%i in (`ipconfig ^| find /i IPv4`) do echo %%i pause and launch the script manually, nothing happens in the dos window (except hit a key to continue... or something). Of course it doesn't work any better in Pd. Is there something wrong with my version of windows? I have XP. By the way, when this works (i trust you!), do you think it'll work in any version of windows? Because i have XP but the friends i'm writing the game for have 7 of vista. Pierre 2011/1/29 patko colet.patr...@free.fr Hello Pierre, you can get ip adress with windows cmd In pd-extended there is [flatspace/popen] object for that, you need to create a file called 'getip.bat' containing those lines: @echo off for /F usebackq tokens=14 %%i in (`ipconfig ^| find /i IPv4`) do echo %%i and then you can grab the ip adress from the computer you are in by sending [getip.bat message to [popen] like this: [getip.bat | [flatspace/popen | symbol box both patch and batch files must be in the same directory, or put the batch file into pd/bin to run it from anywhere - Pedro Lopes pedro.lo...@ist.utl.pt a écrit : lame-solution Even if there's no shell/system object for windoes (I'm not using win so I cannot really answer) you can easily create a batch script (a windows shell script) that saves the output of ipconfig in a file. Then parse the file with pd and extract the ip from there. It can even by dynamic in the sense that your shell script can be a sort of cron (linux scheduled jobs, I think are called sheduled services in win) and can run a number of times. Thus your game could see the file for the lastest IP. /lame-solution On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 11:57 PM, Pierre Massat pimas...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Is it possible to get my computer's IP from inside Pd? I know it's possible in Linux using the shell object, but it doesn't exist in windows. I'm trying to make a game requiring two players to play on two different computers, and it'd be very annoying if each user had to find her IP before playing. Pierre ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Pedro Lopes (MSc) contact: pedro.lo...@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes / http://pedrolopesresearch.wordpress.com/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Patrice Colet -- Patrice Colet ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Am I alone?
loool well, I use to think like you, but you should think about the people that has invented many stuff like vocoder that is now used a lot in commercial craps ^^. Also many composers has made pieces that sounds like a mix of baby toys, but at the same time they develop technology that is now used a lot by people in dance or braindance music, like Aphex, Venetian snares etc... kraftwerk for example composed their stuff fifteen years after the same work has been done in ORTF studio, they just don't have the same musical approach, not the same culture. In some points of view it's a compositional mistake to make a piece sounding 'popular', you should know it... Personaly I do prefer kraftwerk approach, or Jean-Pierre Perret humor, it's true that not everyone has the same taste, you are not alone, that's a fact ;). Do what you like, and please share the sound, anyway pd is more appropriate to build musical toys :) than commercial stuff. Old discussion, check pd archive. - Josh Moore kh405.7h3...@gmail.com a écrit : Well in my opinion most electroacoustic shit is all surrealist/dadaist crap. The people involved try too hard to be the electronic version of John Cage, it's quite annoying. In fact, I'm so against it that I'm going to come up with a parody album with actual good dance music that uses elements of the academic code geek norm with real electronic music that have titles like computer scientists make for very bad musicians and chainsaw in a cave, recorded 6 feet down In all seriousness though, i like the science. However, I believe that just because it's accepted academically doesn't mean that it will put you ahead of everyone else nor do I like/take part in the elitism that follows which is ten times worse. I read the CCRMA and IRCAM articles/publications, use Max, Csound, ChucK, and all of that jazz. I even read the Pd/Max/Csound/Chuck mailing lists too but I choose to make actual music with those tools. I use Renoise for sequencing because it can send open sound control data to the extra stuff, then I multitrack it in whatever DAW I feel like using that day whether it's Pro Tools, Live, Logic, DP, or whatever really. Most of what I make is just normal synthesis stuff, like what you would get out of a synth/workstation anyways but I like the fact that I made what I'm using, or heavily modified it if it was sampled. An off subjerct example but relative is the guys with modular synthesizers. You can go to youtube and see videos with these guys with big huge multithousand dollar Buchla synthesizers and they make this repetitive crap that sounds like it came from lost in space. Then, they just keep turning knobs and it's the same thing for five minutes. It's like, wtf is that trash nobody is going to listen to that... The technical ability to program synths is great, and I love people who take the time to be scientific about their sound but to me the whole entire point of music is about being technical with a control present. You can look at all of the great classical composers, marching band composers, composers/musicians on labels and find the same thing. If I was to go to school to study music and electronics, and figured out that I can get a plastic drum, destroy an alarm clock to make a contact microphone, and do some basic signal processing I can do much the same thing then I would be asking serious questions. I guess for someone who's learning, that stuff is fine but these big institutions who teach music already require one to take proper music courses in primary school yet we find 5 minute 20 hz drones everywhere with some white noise. Are the teachers assigning this stuff? Are they mad? I grew up in a super small area in Washington state and I've never been to college so I wouldn't know but what comes out of this circle is baffling. Perhaps it was just the way I was musically brought up, I don't know. I had a crazy band teacher in primary school who would flunk you if you didn't show up to any of the performances, and dock your grade if you didn't practice so many hours a week that had to be logged and signed by a parent. Plus, you had all the standard music theory stuff, tests on melodic, chromatic, harmonic scales, sometimes the odd ones too, inversions, chords, and so forth. My mom would listen to Van Halen, Stevie Ray Vaughn and Bluegrass music which in my opinion is very technical. I was into house and dance when I was in my preteens to late teens and my mother used to always say that stuff isn't music because it repeats too much. Eventually I saw her wisdom and started listening to lots of Prog Rock and Aphex Twin, Radiohead, Industrial Metal, and stuff like that and it totally changed my view. I think it's all too easy to get caught up in the technology behind production, and leave the good stuff out. Most of the stuff, including my own that's made with computers
Re: [PD] Am I alone?
I even read the Pd/Max/Csound/Chuck mailing lists too but I choose to make actual music with those tools. How do you define Actual Music? Some of us happen to define chainsaw in cave 6 feet down as music ;) ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Am I alone?
I am a newbie in electronic music (not dance music by the way, electronic in the broad sense) but i am also a classic musician, teacher, I also played in traditional music groups etc... background aside here goes the idea. A long time ago, in the renaissance and before, a third and a sixth were considered a dissonant interval. Consonants where only the forth, fifth and octave... this could be caused by a lot of different aspects, one of them was the Temperament of the scale that was quit different from the 12 equal semitones used later. Also the music was made primarily to be sang and played in church and monasteries were the reverberation was big. After that came the keyboard instruments and the difficulty of tuning of the same instruments on different key signatures, this lead to a standard of twelve equal semitones that allow interchangeability of keys. Some years later came the continuous modulation, after that the dodecaphonic series and after that integral serialism and electronic instruments etc etc etc. Each of this changes were highly disregarded by the broad public being used later on for more commercial music. What i want to say is that, you may not like some type of music,I dont like techno, even the pseudo good techno, on a bar, or at my music player, however it has its space on a disco. Each music has its time, its progression. Time its the best filter, maybe 90 % of the music created nowadays will not be heard in 200 years, but when the music touches senses it will endure. there where hundreds of baroque and classical composers at their time, however you only know a handful of them sometimes we as a society need time to assimilate change. Maybe a chainsaw is more musical than a violin, it all depends how the music is made, how the musical discourse and flow goes. apart of the music, there will be always place for etudes. Problem is that nowadays each composition student does an exercise and call it a piece... but that is a social problem not of the techniques. sorry for the rant bye 2011/1/30 beatthefinalb...@gmail.com I even read the Pd/Max/Csound/Chuck mailing lists too but I choose to make actual music with those tools. How do you define Actual Music? Some of us happen to define chainsaw in cave 6 feet down as music ;) ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Fagote / Contrafagote Bassoon / Contra-bassoon http://myspace.com/ricardolameiro ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Am I alone?
Problem is that nowadays each composition student does an exercise and call it a piece... but that is a social problem not of the techniques. Greetings Ricardo :) 2011/1/29 Ricardo Lameiro ricardolame...@gmail.com I am a newbie in electronic music (not dance music by the way, electronic in the broad sense) but i am also a classic musician, teacher, I also played in traditional music groups etc... background aside here goes the idea. A long time ago, in the renaissance and before, a third and a sixth were considered a dissonant interval. Consonants where only the forth, fifth and octave... this could be caused by a lot of different aspects, one of them was the Temperament of the scale that was quit different from the 12 equal semitones used later. Also the music was made primarily to be sang and played in church and monasteries were the reverberation was big. After that came the keyboard instruments and the difficulty of tuning of the same instruments on different key signatures, this lead to a standard of twelve equal semitones that allow interchangeability of keys. Some years later came the continuous modulation, after that the dodecaphonic series and after that integral serialism and electronic instruments etc etc etc. Each of this changes were highly disregarded by the broad public being used later on for more commercial music. What i want to say is that, you may not like some type of music,I dont like techno, even the pseudo good techno, on a bar, or at my music player, however it has its space on a disco. Each music has its time, its progression. Time its the best filter, maybe 90 % of the music created nowadays will not be heard in 200 years, but when the music touches senses it will endure. there where hundreds of baroque and classical composers at their time, however you only know a handful of them sometimes we as a society need time to assimilate change. Maybe a chainsaw is more musical than a violin, it all depends how the music is made, how the musical discourse and flow goes. apart of the music, there will be always place for etudes. Problem is that nowadays each composition student does an exercise and call it a piece... but that is a social problem not of the techniques. sorry for the rant bye 2011/1/30 beatthefinalb...@gmail.com I even read the Pd/Max/Csound/Chuck mailing lists too but I choose to make actual music with those tools. How do you define Actual Music? Some of us happen to define chainsaw in cave 6 feet down as music ;) ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Fagote / Contrafagote Bassoon / Contra-bassoon http://myspace.com/ricardolameiro ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Am I alone?
--- On Sat, 1/29/11, Josh Moore kh405.7h3...@gmail.com wrote: From: Josh Moore kh405.7h3...@gmail.com Subject: [PD] Am I alone? To: pd-list@iem.at, chuck-us...@lists.cs.princeton.edu, cso...@lists.bath.ac.uk, m...@bek.no Date: Saturday, January 29, 2011, 9:16 PM Well in my opinion most electroacoustic shit is all surrealist/dadaist crap. [list I_agree Unsure WTF +1 Screw_you Welcome_to_the_list( | | [loadbang] | | | [random 6] | | | [+ 1] | | | [adddollar $1( |/ | / |/ [ ( | [print response] The people involved try too hard to be the electronic version of John Cage, it's quite annoying. [0, 0 273000( | [line~] | [dac~] In fact, I'm so against it that I'm going to come up with a parody album with actual good dance music that uses elements of the academic code geek norm with real electronic music that have titles like computer scientists make for very bad musicians and chainsaw in a cave, recorded 6 feet down In all seriousness though, i like the science. However, I believe that just because it's accepted academically doesn't mean that it will put you ahead of everyone else nor do I like/take part in the elitism that follows which is ten times worse. I read the CCRMA and IRCAM articles/publications, use Max, Csound, ChucK, and all of that jazz. I even read the Pd/Max/Csound/Chuck mailing lists too but I choose to make actual music with those tools. [1( Make Music | | [0( Read pd list | / |/ | [0.5( Warning: untested!!! (apparently) | / |/ [actual_music~] | [dac~] I use Renoise for sequencing because it can send open sound control data to the extra stuff, then I multitrack it in whatever DAW I feel like using that day whether it's Pro Tools, Live, Logic, DP, or whatever really. Most of what I make is just normal synthesis stuff, like what you would get out of a synth/workstation anyways but I like the fact that I made what I'm using, or heavily modified it if it was sampled. An off subjerct example but relative is the guys with modular synthesizers. You can go to youtube and see videos with these guys with big huge multithousand dollar Buchla synthesizers and they make this repetitive crap that sounds like it came from lost in space. Then, they just keep turning knobs and it's the same thing for five minutes. It's like, wtf is that trash nobody is going to listen to that... The technical ability to program synths is great, and I love people who take the time to be scientific about their sound but to me the whole entire point of music is about being technical with a control present. You can look at all of the great classical composers, marching band composers, composers/musicians on labels and find the same thing. If I was to go to school to study music and electronics, and figured out that I can get a plastic drum, destroy an alarm clock to make a contact microphone, and do some basic signal processing I can do much the same thing then I would be asking serious questions. I guess for someone who's learning, that stuff is fine but these big institutions who teach music already require one to take proper music courses in primary school yet we find 5 minute 20 hz drones everywhere with some white noise. Are the teachers assigning this stuff? Are they mad? I grew up in a super small area in Washington state and I've never been to college so I wouldn't know but what comes out of this circle is baffling. Perhaps it was just the way I was musically brought up, I don't know. I had a crazy band teacher in primary school who would flunk you if you didn't show up to any of the performances, and dock your grade if you didn't practice so many hours a week that had to be logged and signed by a parent. Plus, you had all the standard music theory stuff, tests on melodic, chromatic, harmonic scales, sometimes the odd ones too, inversions, chords, and so forth. My mom would listen to Van Halen, Stevie Ray Vaughn and Bluegrass music which in my opinion is very technical. I was into house and dance when I was in my preteens to late teens and my mother used to always say that stuff isn't music because it repeats too much. Eventually I saw her wisdom and started listening to lots of Prog Rock and Aphex Twin, Radiohead, Industrial Metal, and stuff like that and it totally changed my view. I think it's all too easy to get caught up in the technology behind production, and leave the good stuff out. Most of the stuff, including my own that's made with computers just doesn't have that same feel even after I spent 8 hours programming complex drum patterns note by note in a numeric based step sequencer. However, in my case my own musical control would be the simple math that makes up harmony and melody. Some however can defy this and still make good music, like Sonic Youth for instance or other people who have experimental music actually
Re: [PD] Am I alone?
One of the best replies ever on this list. Kudos Jonathan. -- Pedro Lopes (MSc) contact: pedro.lo...@ist.utl.pt website: http://web.ist.utl.pt/Pedro.Lopes / http://pedrolopesresearch.wordpress.com/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Am I alone?
To all involved in this discussion, the last few responses were great. :) It was a bit harsh to some, and I figured as much but it's also a very real question. Beatthefinalboss and a couple others hit the nail on the head, and that's partially what I meant in my long rant. From the things I've read and seen I understood that eventually the techniques pioneered by Max/Miller/Vercoe/etc have always found their way into popular music. The comment about braindance as well was also noted, and I enjoy that music. It was originally Brian Transeau that got me interested about Csound and what it was early on. I didn't like it then and needed a few more years of sound design experience, but it's wonderful now with csound~ as an external in maxforlive and all of the tools Csound has now. I just think in many ways there is too much emphasis on experimenting. A better way to say this is I tend to like Debussy more than I like Schoenberg, Stockhausen, or Cage. There are simply lots of aspects of 20th century contemporary academic music that are just strange to me. I also agree with the statement on Kraftwerk. They took what was there and made it marketable. Same goes for bands like Skinny Puppy and Nine Inch Nails in contrast to stuff like Throbbing Gristle and Einsturzende Neubaten. (though they've toned down lately) If you go on youtube and search up The Beatles and Yoko Ono you may find this video where Yoko Ono is telling the beatles to play randomly on their instruments to create noise music while she shrieks and makes weird noises. The Beatles are capable of making excellent music, but this was really bad. It was more a philosophical question/rant than anything really. Experimental music in the sense of drones and so on is quite new in the scene, not historically though since many other tribal cultures had it too and perhaps that's partially where it comes from. On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Mario mare...@gmail.com wrote: Problem is that nowadays each composition student does an exercise and call it a piece... but that is a social problem not of the techniques. Greetings Ricardo :) 2011/1/29 Ricardo Lameiro ricardolame...@gmail.com I am a newbie in electronic music (not dance music by the way, electronic in the broad sense) but i am also a classic musician, teacher, I also played in traditional music groups etc... background aside here goes the idea. A long time ago, in the renaissance and before, a third and a sixth were considered a dissonant interval. Consonants where only the forth, fifth and octave... this could be caused by a lot of different aspects, one of them was the Temperament of the scale that was quit different from the 12 equal semitones used later. Also the music was made primarily to be sang and played in church and monasteries were the reverberation was big. After that came the keyboard instruments and the difficulty of tuning of the same instruments on different key signatures, this lead to a standard of twelve equal semitones that allow interchangeability of keys. Some years later came the continuous modulation, after that the dodecaphonic series and after that integral serialism and electronic instruments etc etc etc. Each of this changes were highly disregarded by the broad public being used later on for more commercial music. What i want to say is that, you may not like some type of music,I dont like techno, even the pseudo good techno, on a bar, or at my music player, however it has its space on a disco. Each music has its time, its progression. Time its the best filter, maybe 90 % of the music created nowadays will not be heard in 200 years, but when the music touches senses it will endure. there where hundreds of baroque and classical composers at their time, however you only know a handful of them sometimes we as a society need time to assimilate change. Maybe a chainsaw is more musical than a violin, it all depends how the music is made, how the musical discourse and flow goes. apart of the music, there will be always place for etudes. Problem is that nowadays each composition student does an exercise and call it a piece... but that is a social problem not of the techniques. sorry for the rant bye 2011/1/30 beatthefinalb...@gmail.com I even read the Pd/Max/Csound/Chuck mailing lists too but I choose to make actual music with those tools. How do you define Actual Music? Some of us happen to define chainsaw in cave 6 feet down as music ;) ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Fagote / Contrafagote Bassoon / Contra-bassoon http://myspace.com/ricardolameiro ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing
Re: [PD] Am I alone?
Actually, that comment was meant towards Ricardo not Beatthefinalboss, it's weird reading a mailinglist in gmail. Sorry for the confusion! On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Josh Moore kh405.7h3...@gmail.com wrote: To all involved in this discussion, the last few responses were great. :) It was a bit harsh to some, and I figured as much but it's also a very real question. Beatthefinalboss and a couple others hit the nail on the head, and that's partially what I meant in my long rant. From the things I've read and seen I understood that eventually the techniques pioneered by Max/Miller/Vercoe/etc have always found their way into popular music. The comment about braindance as well was also noted, and I enjoy that music. It was originally Brian Transeau that got me interested about Csound and what it was early on. I didn't like it then and needed a few more years of sound design experience, but it's wonderful now with csound~ as an external in maxforlive and all of the tools Csound has now. I just think in many ways there is too much emphasis on experimenting. A better way to say this is I tend to like Debussy more than I like Schoenberg, Stockhausen, or Cage. There are simply lots of aspects of 20th century contemporary academic music that are just strange to me. I also agree with the statement on Kraftwerk. They took what was there and made it marketable. Same goes for bands like Skinny Puppy and Nine Inch Nails in contrast to stuff like Throbbing Gristle and Einsturzende Neubaten. (though they've toned down lately) If you go on youtube and search up The Beatles and Yoko Ono you may find this video where Yoko Ono is telling the beatles to play randomly on their instruments to create noise music while she shrieks and makes weird noises. The Beatles are capable of making excellent music, but this was really bad. It was more a philosophical question/rant than anything really. Experimental music in the sense of drones and so on is quite new in the scene, not historically though since many other tribal cultures had it too and perhaps that's partially where it comes from. On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Mario mare...@gmail.com wrote: Problem is that nowadays each composition student does an exercise and call it a piece... but that is a social problem not of the techniques. Greetings Ricardo :) 2011/1/29 Ricardo Lameiro ricardolame...@gmail.com I am a newbie in electronic music (not dance music by the way, electronic in the broad sense) but i am also a classic musician, teacher, I also played in traditional music groups etc... background aside here goes the idea. A long time ago, in the renaissance and before, a third and a sixth were considered a dissonant interval. Consonants where only the forth, fifth and octave... this could be caused by a lot of different aspects, one of them was the Temperament of the scale that was quit different from the 12 equal semitones used later. Also the music was made primarily to be sang and played in church and monasteries were the reverberation was big. After that came the keyboard instruments and the difficulty of tuning of the same instruments on different key signatures, this lead to a standard of twelve equal semitones that allow interchangeability of keys. Some years later came the continuous modulation, after that the dodecaphonic series and after that integral serialism and electronic instruments etc etc etc. Each of this changes were highly disregarded by the broad public being used later on for more commercial music. What i want to say is that, you may not like some type of music,I dont like techno, even the pseudo good techno, on a bar, or at my music player, however it has its space on a disco. Each music has its time, its progression. Time its the best filter, maybe 90 % of the music created nowadays will not be heard in 200 years, but when the music touches senses it will endure. there where hundreds of baroque and classical composers at their time, however you only know a handful of them sometimes we as a society need time to assimilate change. Maybe a chainsaw is more musical than a violin, it all depends how the music is made, how the musical discourse and flow goes. apart of the music, there will be always place for etudes. Problem is that nowadays each composition student does an exercise and call it a piece... but that is a social problem not of the techniques. sorry for the rant bye 2011/1/30 beatthefinalb...@gmail.com I even read the Pd/Max/Csound/Chuck mailing lists too but I choose to make actual music with those tools. How do you define Actual Music? Some of us happen to define chainsaw in cave 6 feet down as music ;) ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Fagote / Contrafagote Bassoon / Contra-bassoon
Re: [PD] Am I alone?
Great reference to 4:33 Jonathan :D -- Fagote / Contrafagote Bassoon / Contra-bassoon http://myspace.com/ricardolameiro ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
