Re: [PD] [qlist] and locality
On Mon, 2014-03-31 at 18:54 -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: Hi there, I can't get messages from [qlist] to an object with $0. Is this really a problem? You can: [nbx\ | [t b f] | \ [pack $0 f] | [add 500 $1-bla $2] | [qlist] [r $0-bla] | [print] The thing is you have to expand $0 before you're putting the messages into qlist. BTW: You also cannot internally expand to the arguments ($1, $2, etc.) of the abstraction that contains the qlist. You'd have to use the same 'trick'. Roman ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [qlist] and locality
On Tue, 2014-04-01 at 17:20 -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: you might want to see the messages sent by [qlist] the same as messages in msgboxes, where you don't have $0-expansion either Bummer. anyway, this brings me to a different topic then. Why is there this lack of expansion in messages? Message boxes _do_ expand dollar arguments. I think I've raised this issue sometime ago. Sorry I don't remember what the problem was, but I'd like to ask again if it's really really hard to expand the functionality in messages, or if this could happen sometime soon in Pd. The difference is that dollar arguments in message boxes expand to the incoming message while dollar arguments in object boxes expand to the arguments given to the parent. $0 in object boxes is actually an argument given implicitly by Pd to the parent (every instance of a Pd file gets a separate one). I believe there won't be any compatibility issues by expanding this functionality. Old patches will still work and newer patches could be simpler, right? You're asking for inconsistency: You propose to have a mixture of dollar arguments in message boxes, namely you want $0 to expand to an argument of the parent and all other dollar arguments expand according to the incoming message. While I also don't see how your proposal would break compatibility, I think what I said above is the reasoning why things are how they are. While I don't have a strong opinion on the subject matter, I suspect it is not going to be changed soon (it was brought up a few times already, iirc). Roman ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [qlist] and locality
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-04-02 08:57, Roman Haefeli wrote: On Mon, 2014-03-31 at 18:54 -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: Hi there, I can't get messages from [qlist] to an object with $0. Is this really a problem? You can: [pack $0 f] | [add 500 $1-bla $2] ah yes. i assumed (most probably correctly), that alex wanted to store the qlist to a file and read it back in a different session of Pd. and/or store a qlist with one instance of an abstraction, and recall it from another instance. fgmasdr IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTO8AvAAoJELZQGcR/ejb4ZLkQAIpZWuGsQZTyAz+DPXRW3Gyz UjhQzMXl3lRSOUuulxA/wTqjFnWsNgQxQH2v2PO+mxWgZL7I9D0JQW24sFrpzNdO zzyaH+i2F6ZQZPris+R71SarfMu8ovIuV4fX1m/2pUDxremPdjRnErwtiRlBu6DE qqxYOi/UYh1/ECSLIW01azr1d01d/C3bSkdYtnrOZGQJYz6VjpBpt8sFLyyPdMqO xbaYTRIezRx+LGXpgs2lEKO5c7DQJli0y4+a3DThO0arKf2BWL+VJ7DqNtJmnaj1 XgFMsm1wkXkDE3vlFqsnjMJnY2zWg8o247oUwnOK2R0ZFHHF7D/eYsKjOKgB8RCc CMoZu3cqq+CCZsl1QCfneoKN8DVRkxLSC3AoK0mpRlDSNK6CKBW7PpH2sc99My7R exnfXJxYKthREXt2GVrB5uD1wewMczg7rxAPo3wHNReYxItNd1TmjDb2d07/TmPg MN/OYp/UWF/LG45C3rENfLkPa8VT48P+I+cX2K8urlheC/2/jXaMZZb+slFjuTlp TvDnIGG9JzsUSQeWj71ILfvAXXHSrNH/9YmbdKuhhFSUe3qePUen8elgV7NOuoec KJcRGMViwqvtRpNVRjjirT9C4u/zV7x6xoPSdc4TINTtHFVheHTJF37xeWFkZZfX bQkA59PavXIbgvQmDPzM =XIxv -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [qlist] and locality
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-04-02 09:08, Roman Haefeli wrote: You're asking for inconsistency: ++ fmsda IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTO8BAAAoJELZQGcR/ejb4dmcP/RW0yvBHDhPdMUoFMTHaZ/nk bVJyREBxx7bG1DlQYvMR5AF2Rrw/qeG31nxJqYyfVRjltgJLH4dnXBzrYqJ+0RsR kMG4gC23pOd8rl5Pbffwdk1VAAH6lpLdNVJC5C5oM5ZRzDI7o1C+MzBCkp/odqri 8xGpRHvD7d4fQ82ssBURu77DXstigYLs4hDMTAH2PKuLnNltA32WKOZdaQxveSbj n2ccXjpa8YoI++ixa9xqvKWbKcbMN77lzxiz7QD0DIPkwfOZU8V5iEgvj1nlzfrt L+0wWnVv5Xk6oT/yIIoUiWG6Jl0som7o/apwhAE03SNRRXCQrfqy1mKAmHHIDmB9 F3wigeAHivABGeS8WApS/jU4tdg3nXEcubBs7LmODD9DxbstJagSGRalqRm0fQ0+ 6+z6cQbm/cJTJN6QyuHstFD5z7ZXUu2jJUr5uo3BOqWVgncZSgV2BEaQF03j00KB 59YcXA1eumGyaUYR82FQCwWKPZ8xzjIemwlvduGTuXdv87U0t24KnEgLyV3t5E6j 8RovAzwrmjTGw5zOO29Sk8S/2wDYq+hvCv9FplpSEMsI0PWewWkO+riCRxcpRQH6 Mbd7PVbWUJLiOiOEqsSsGEw7soWnfpY3ZRumqmKFquQYCFXPaXJsGjQSfPynzuBv BnLautFgF6OXn4Q7UY4z =DvZ3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [qlist] and locality
See also the 'text' object in 0.45 that does $ expansion :) M On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 09:45:56AM +0200, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-04-02 08:57, Roman Haefeli wrote: On Mon, 2014-03-31 at 18:54 -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: Hi there, I can't get messages from [qlist] to an object with $0. Is this really a problem? You can: [pack $0 f] | [add 500 $1-bla $2] ah yes. i assumed (most probably correctly), that alex wanted to store the qlist to a file and read it back in a different session of Pd. and/or store a qlist with one instance of an abstraction, and recall it from another instance. fgmasdr IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTO8AvAAoJELZQGcR/ejb4ZLkQAIpZWuGsQZTyAz+DPXRW3Gyz UjhQzMXl3lRSOUuulxA/wTqjFnWsNgQxQH2v2PO+mxWgZL7I9D0JQW24sFrpzNdO zzyaH+i2F6ZQZPris+R71SarfMu8ovIuV4fX1m/2pUDxremPdjRnErwtiRlBu6DE qqxYOi/UYh1/ECSLIW01azr1d01d/C3bSkdYtnrOZGQJYz6VjpBpt8sFLyyPdMqO xbaYTRIezRx+LGXpgs2lEKO5c7DQJli0y4+a3DThO0arKf2BWL+VJ7DqNtJmnaj1 XgFMsm1wkXkDE3vlFqsnjMJnY2zWg8o247oUwnOK2R0ZFHHF7D/eYsKjOKgB8RCc CMoZu3cqq+CCZsl1QCfneoKN8DVRkxLSC3AoK0mpRlDSNK6CKBW7PpH2sc99My7R exnfXJxYKthREXt2GVrB5uD1wewMczg7rxAPo3wHNReYxItNd1TmjDb2d07/TmPg MN/OYp/UWF/LG45C3rENfLkPa8VT48P+I+cX2K8urlheC/2/jXaMZZb+slFjuTlp TvDnIGG9JzsUSQeWj71ILfvAXXHSrNH/9YmbdKuhhFSUe3qePUen8elgV7NOuoec KJcRGMViwqvtRpNVRjjirT9C4u/zV7x6xoPSdc4TINTtHFVheHTJF37xeWFkZZfX bQkA59PavXIbgvQmDPzM =XIxv -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [qlist] and locality
See also the 'text' object in 0.45 that does $ expansion :) on it ;) Now, so it seems, at least [qlist] could be upgarded any time to do the expansion, right? That wouldn't hurt, would it? Cheers 2014-04-02 10:26 GMT-03:00 Miller Puckette m...@ucsd.edu: See also the 'text' object in 0.45 that does $ expansion :) M On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 09:45:56AM +0200, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-04-02 08:57, Roman Haefeli wrote: On Mon, 2014-03-31 at 18:54 -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: Hi there, I can't get messages from [qlist] to an object with $0. Is this really a problem? You can: [pack $0 f] | [add 500 $1-bla $2] ah yes. i assumed (most probably correctly), that alex wanted to store the qlist to a file and read it back in a different session of Pd. and/or store a qlist with one instance of an abstraction, and recall it from another instance. fgmasdr IOhannes -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJTO8AvAAoJELZQGcR/ejb4ZLkQAIpZWuGsQZTyAz+DPXRW3Gyz UjhQzMXl3lRSOUuulxA/wTqjFnWsNgQxQH2v2PO+mxWgZL7I9D0JQW24sFrpzNdO zzyaH+i2F6ZQZPris+R71SarfMu8ovIuV4fX1m/2pUDxremPdjRnErwtiRlBu6DE qqxYOi/UYh1/ECSLIW01azr1d01d/C3bSkdYtnrOZGQJYz6VjpBpt8sFLyyPdMqO xbaYTRIezRx+LGXpgs2lEKO5c7DQJli0y4+a3DThO0arKf2BWL+VJ7DqNtJmnaj1 XgFMsm1wkXkDE3vlFqsnjMJnY2zWg8o247oUwnOK2R0ZFHHF7D/eYsKjOKgB8RCc CMoZu3cqq+CCZsl1QCfneoKN8DVRkxLSC3AoK0mpRlDSNK6CKBW7PpH2sc99My7R exnfXJxYKthREXt2GVrB5uD1wewMczg7rxAPo3wHNReYxItNd1TmjDb2d07/TmPg MN/OYp/UWF/LG45C3rENfLkPa8VT48P+I+cX2K8urlheC/2/jXaMZZb+slFjuTlp TvDnIGG9JzsUSQeWj71ILfvAXXHSrNH/9YmbdKuhhFSUe3qePUen8elgV7NOuoec KJcRGMViwqvtRpNVRjjirT9C4u/zV7x6xoPSdc4TINTtHFVheHTJF37xeWFkZZfX bQkA59PavXIbgvQmDPzM =XIxv -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [qlist] and locality
On 04/02/2014 03:08 AM, Roman Haefeli wrote: On Tue, 2014-04-01 at 17:20 -0300, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: you might want to see the messages sent by [qlist] the same as messages in msgboxes, where you don't have $0-expansion either Bummer. anyway, this brings me to a different topic then. Why is there this lack of expansion in messages? Message boxes _do_ expand dollar arguments. I think I've raised this issue sometime ago. Sorry I don't remember what the problem was, but I'd like to ask again if it's really really hard to expand the functionality in messages, or if this could happen sometime soon in Pd. The difference is that dollar arguments in message boxes expand to the incoming message while dollar arguments in object boxes expand to the arguments given to the parent. $0 in object boxes is actually an argument given implicitly by Pd to the parent (every instance of a Pd file gets a separate one). I believe there won't be any compatibility issues by expanding this functionality. Old patches will still work and newer patches could be simpler, right? You're asking for inconsistency: You propose to have a mixture of dollar arguments in message boxes, namely you want $0 to expand to an argument of the parent and all other dollar arguments expand according to the incoming message. I think what the OP wants is some minimally-workable notion of scope wrt receive-symbols. Because $0 doesn't deliver this, the next best thing is an inconsistent $0 that gets closer to minimally-workable scope. It says something that so many people are willing to overlook the inconsistency to get behavior that doesn't cause them to pull their hair out. While I also don't see how your proposal would break compatibility, I think what I said above is the reasoning why things are how they are. Tim Blechmann already addressed scope and implemented a solution in Nova. There are certainly developers in the Pd community who could port that idea, or maybe even something better. But free software devs have limited time, and they're smart, so they know if a now prominent Supercollider dev can't get such a needed improvement into Pd then they probably have 1000 better ways to spend their time. -Jonathan While I don't have a strong opinion on the subject matter, I suspect it is not going to be changed soon (it was brought up a few times already, iirc). Roman ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [qlist] and locality
On 04/02/2014 05:43 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: See also the 'text' object in 0.45 that does $ expansion :) on it ;) Now, so it seems, at least [qlist] could be upgarded any time to do the expansion, right? That wouldn't hurt, would it? or you could build your own [qlist] based on [text]...no need to change the old and rusty code of the original [qlist]. dsar IOhannes signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [qlist] and locality
or you could build your own [qlist] based on [text]... no need to change the old and rusty code of the original [qlist]. I get the workaround, but [qlist] is built for sequencing and simpler for that (like, it can easily set the tempo), and I still think it wouldn't hurt to make it more flexible. It'd be totally backwards compatible. Although I assume I don't think I get the hassle it'd be to do that. I'm still struggling to see what could be so tricky to make $0 possible to work in messages, sorry :P cheers 2014-04-02 13:50 GMT-03:00 IOhannes m zmölnig zmoel...@iem.at: On 04/02/2014 05:43 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: See also the 'text' object in 0.45 that does $ expansion :) on it ;) Now, so it seems, at least [qlist] could be upgarded any time to do the expansion, right? That wouldn't hurt, would it? or you could build your own [qlist] based on [text]...no need to change the old and rusty code of the original [qlist]. dsar IOhannes ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [qlist] and locality
By the way, haven't been really able to make it work well with [textfile]. If you get a symbol with $0-symbol from a text file, you can't use it to work as an address for [send]. 2014-04-02 19:00 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com: or you could build your own [qlist] based on [text]... no need to change the old and rusty code of the original [qlist]. I get the workaround, but [qlist] is built for sequencing and simpler for that (like, it can easily set the tempo), and I still think it wouldn't hurt to make it more flexible. It'd be totally backwards compatible. Although I assume I don't think I get the hassle it'd be to do that. I'm still struggling to see what could be so tricky to make $0 possible to work in messages, sorry :P cheers 2014-04-02 13:50 GMT-03:00 IOhannes m zmölnig zmoel...@iem.at: On 04/02/2014 05:43 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: See also the 'text' object in 0.45 that does $ expansion :) on it ;) Now, so it seems, at least [qlist] could be upgarded any time to do the expansion, right? That wouldn't hurt, would it? or you could build your own [qlist] based on [text]...no need to change the old and rusty code of the original [qlist]. dsar IOhannes ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [qlist] and locality
So, tried other things, and I see it won't be able to deal with messages including $0 like [qlist]. So the reason must be not related to [qlist] or [textfile], but the way Pd handles (or doesn't handle) $0 in messages. The only workaround is to forcely insert $0 with [makefilename], but then all symbols have to be local. cheers 2014-04-02 20:49 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com: By the way, haven't been really able to make it work well with [textfile]. If you get a symbol with $0-symbol from a text file, you can't use it to work as an address for [send]. 2014-04-02 19:00 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Torres Porres por...@gmail.com: or you could build your own [qlist] based on [text]... no need to change the old and rusty code of the original [qlist]. I get the workaround, but [qlist] is built for sequencing and simpler for that (like, it can easily set the tempo), and I still think it wouldn't hurt to make it more flexible. It'd be totally backwards compatible. Although I assume I don't think I get the hassle it'd be to do that. I'm still struggling to see what could be so tricky to make $0 possible to work in messages, sorry :P cheers 2014-04-02 13:50 GMT-03:00 IOhannes m zmölnig zmoel...@iem.at: On 04/02/2014 05:43 PM, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote: See also the 'text' object in 0.45 that does $ expansion :) on it ;) Now, so it seems, at least [qlist] could be upgarded any time to do the expansion, right? That wouldn't hurt, would it? or you could build your own [qlist] based on [text]...no need to change the old and rusty code of the original [qlist]. dsar IOhannes ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
