Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc1 released // fonts
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: Ideally, Pd would support custom fonts and scaling, but currently it does not. It does support custom fonts somehow through using the -typeface commandline option. Maybe the best aproach would be to make this option more flexible and accept font weights and sizes as well? Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc1 released // fonts
On Apr 17, 2007, at 3:28 AM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote: just one random thought Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: My first feeling when I saw the non-bold Pd was similar to your reaction: it seemed hard to read. I decided to try it for a while, since every other app I use does not use bold fonts. Now I am use to it and have a hard time reading the old bold Pd patches, especially compared to the new font at 12pt. One big annoyance is the tiny - in DejaVu. Arg... Anyone want to make a Pd font? one of Pd's major weaknesses in terms of usability is (imo) that it is rather unfit for visually impaired (as frank has nicely braught to our attention). being somewhat visually impaired too, i would really love to see that readability becomes a really important design factor. making subjective judgements is probably not the correct way to do it. changing the fonts to be the same on all platforms is definitely a good start. i would be very reluctant about changing the font-types (this is: bold/..., serifs, size, ...) without very good reasons to do so. i am no expert in this field, but i fear that very few people here are. i vote for not changing too much, based solely on subjective impressions. so: go ahead unifying the fonts. but do not change the appearance without good reasons. I agree on all points. The reason I tried a non-bold font is because many people have asked for it, most people use non-bold fonts for regular reading, etc. But one setup will not suit all people, so the next step needs to be the ability to set the font. That's a much bigger problem, AFIAK. .hc just 2¢ from the conservatives. ms.dft IOhannes ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list kill your television ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc1 released // fonts
On Apr 17, 2007, at 3:01 AM, Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: Ideally, Pd would support custom fonts and scaling, but currently it does not. It does support custom fonts somehow through using the -typeface commandline option. Maybe the best aproach would be to make this option more flexible and accept font weights and sizes as well? Sounds good. I've done some work along those lines. In C land, I made everything read the font from sys_font, IIRC, which is set in s_main.c. It used to be set locally in each spot. Maybe there should be a separate -fontweight option. .hc Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - General Smedley Butler ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc1 released // fonts
I imagine if PD patches could have some kind of variation on CSS it would be really nice. The idea seem a little crazy, but once I considered it I could see a lot of benefits. But I'm sure such a thing is too much work for now. ~David On 4/17/07, Hans-Christoph Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 17, 2007, at 3:01 AM, Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: Ideally, Pd would support custom fonts and scaling, but currently it does not. It does support custom fonts somehow through using the -typeface commandline option. Maybe the best aproach would be to make this option more flexible and accept font weights and sizes as well? Sounds good. I've done some work along those lines. In C land, I made everything read the font from sys_font, IIRC, which is set in s_main.c. It used to be set locally in each spot. Maybe there should be a separate -fontweight option. .hc Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - General Smedley Butler ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc1 released // fonts
I think that, since font sizes now differ between platforms, it's probably OK to introduce a new, uniform font size as long as it doesn't exceed that of any currently used one by more than about a pixel... and indeed, it will be a huge benefit to get this straightened out at last! cheers Miller (Franks' message extracted:) Of course having Pd look the same on all platforms is a good goal, and Miller also supported this in the past. I'm not against solving this at all. But of course incompatibilities should be kept to a minimum, I hope you'll agree with that. (Besides the OS-issues, no versions of MSP-Pd that I've used, had size-incompatibilities when using the same font.) I'm just a bit worrind: Now that you've released new fonts into the (pd-extended) wild, there's an additional, new variable to consider with regard to compatibility when going further with font enhancements. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc1 released // fonts
Hallo, Miller Puckette hat gesagt: // Miller Puckette wrote: I think that, since font sizes now differ between platforms, it's probably OK to introduce a new, uniform font size as long as it doesn't exceed that of any currently used one by more than about a pixel... and indeed, it will be a huge benefit to get this straightened out at last! Yep, definitely. I now had a real look at pd-extended. Some comments: The properties menu for IEMGUIs still explicitly specify names like Deja Sans ... or Helvetica. I think, it would be better to use more general names: Mono, Sans Serif and Serif. That way it would be easier to map the names to different font faces eventially or when -typeface X is used. Then very much, even with Deja, I would prefer to have a bold typeface back. I find the non-bold fonts hard to read and for my tastes they are too similar in width to the object borders. Btw: the number in number boxes is positioned a little bit to low, not in the center. _From a quick glance at pd.tk I still don't like, that the font face is hardcoded in many places. I'm tcl-illiterate, but it would be nice to have the fonts defined in just one place. One end goal IMO should be a system similar to the one in Desire Data: Here you can totally change the graphical appearance, from colors to fonts and beyond, by editing a GUI config file. With hardcoded font names everywhere this is porbably harder to realize. Also after seeing Chun's DD presentation at make art last week I fell in love with the Zoom feature of Desire Data: If like me one is sight impaired when in front of a screen (yep, I'm aproaching 40), with current Pd it is necessary to change the font size, which, even with the Deja-font and pd-extended, will still break the layout of a patch. Instead of that, zooming into a patch would be a much better solution for handicapped users. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc1 released // fonts
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:34:29 +0200 Frank Barknecht [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also after seeing Chun's DD presentation at make art last week I fell in love with the Zoom feature of Desire Data: If like me one is sight impaired when in front of a screen (yep, I'm aproaching 40), with current Pd it is necessary to change the font size, which, even with the Deja-font and pd-extended, will still break the layout of a patch. Instead of that, zooming into a patch would be a much better solution for handicapped users. Strongly agree. I'm no spring bunny myself and it can be a strain when working on large patches. A mousewheel zoom to cursor focus would be a very welcome addition. -- Use the source ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc1 released // fonts
Frank Barknecht wrote: Also after seeing Chun's DD presentation at make art last week I fell in love with the Zoom feature of Desire Data: anyone know if there are archives of the presentations anywhere on the internets? i looked on the site but didn't see any. -josh If like me one is sight impaired when in front of a screen (yep, I'm aproaching 40), with current Pd it is necessary to change the font size, which, even with the Deja-font and pd-extended, will still break the layout of a patch. Instead of that, zooming into a patch would be a much better solution for handicapped users. Ciao -- tasty electronic music vittles -- bluevitriol.com the only music blog you need-- playtherecords.com you are the dj. interactive music -- improbableorchestra.com random observations of the bizarre -- vitriolix.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc1 released // fonts
On Apr 16, 2007, at 1:34 PM, Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, Miller Puckette hat gesagt: // Miller Puckette wrote: I think that, since font sizes now differ between platforms, it's probably OK to introduce a new, uniform font size as long as it doesn't exceed that of any currently used one by more than about a pixel... and indeed, it will be a huge benefit to get this straightened out at last! Yep, definitely. I now had a real look at pd-extended. Some comments: The properties menu for IEMGUIs still explicitly specify names like Deja Sans ... or Helvetica. I think, it would be better to use more general names: Mono, Sans Serif and Serif. That way it would be easier to map the names to different font faces eventially or when -typeface X is used. Sounds like a good idea. It's a separate issue though, so I left that situation as is. One step at a time. You could submit a patch if you feel inspired... Then very much, even with Deja, I would prefer to have a bold typeface back. I find the non-bold fonts hard to read and for my tastes they are too similar in width to the object borders. Bitstream Vera/Deja at 8pt and 10pt is not so good. 11pt is much better, and 12pt is quite nice. Too bad the Lucida fonts aren't free, they look better IMHO. Btw: the number in number boxes is positioned a little bit to low, not in the center. Unfortunately, there is only one place to adjust the font placement. This is the best compromise that I could come up with. It would be great if people experimented with the positioning and perhaps other fonts to see if there is a better solution. _From a quick glance at pd.tk I still don't like, that the font face is hardcoded in many places. I'm tcl-illiterate, but it would be nice to have the fonts defined in just one place. One end goal IMO should be a system similar to the one in Desire Data: Here you can totally change the graphical appearance, from colors to fonts and beyond, by editing a GUI config file. With hardcoded font names everywhere this is porbably harder to realize. Indeed. I did some work towards that end, but there is much left to do. AFAIK, in order to do have all of the graphical stuff customizable and still have working cross-platform patch layout, the graphical information would have to be stored in the .pd file. It's currently not. Also after seeing Chun's DD presentation at make art last week I fell in love with the Zoom feature of Desire Data: If like me one is sight impaired when in front of a screen (yep, I'm aproaching 40), with current Pd it is necessary to change the font size, which, even with the Deja-font and pd-extended, will still break the layout of a patch. Instead of that, zooming into a patch would be a much better solution for handicapped users. Yes, it would be very nice to tk scaling support. .hc Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list ¡El pueblo unido jamás será vencido! ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc1 released // fonts
On Apr 16, 2007, at 1:34 PM, Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, Miller Puckette hat gesagt: // Miller Puckette wrote: I think that, since font sizes now differ between platforms, it's probably OK to introduce a new, uniform font size as long as it doesn't exceed that of any currently used one by more than about a pixel... and indeed, it will be a huge benefit to get this straightened out at last! Yep, definitely. I now had a real look at pd-extended. Some comments: The properties menu for IEMGUIs still explicitly specify names like Deja Sans ... or Helvetica. I think, it would be better to use more general names: Mono, Sans Serif and Serif. That way it would be easier to map the names to different font faces eventially or when -typeface X is used. Then very much, even with Deja, I would prefer to have a bold typeface back. I find the non-bold fonts hard to read and for my tastes they are too similar in width to the object borders. Btw: the number in number boxes is positioned a little bit to low, not in the center. I forgot to ask more questions about this. It's a significant change, but not one that I have not put considerable thought into. What font size to do use for your Pd patches? When you use fonts of this size in other apps, do you have it set to bold?. I thought about it and looked around, and I noticed that nobody that I saw uses bold fonts for text unless it's a header or special case. Even when reading code. Also, most people don't use 10pt fonts for normal reading. For example, the default font for web pages is usually 12pt or 16pt. I think that Pd's text is not really like reading a block of text, but maybe more like webpage menus. It seems those are mostly not in bold fonts also, but sometimes are. My first feeling when I saw the non-bold Pd was similar to your reaction: it seemed hard to read. I decided to try it for a while, since every other app I use does not use bold fonts. Now I am use to it and have a hard time reading the old bold Pd patches, especially compared to the new font at 12pt. One big annoyance is the tiny - in DejaVu. Arg... Anyone want to make a Pd font? .hc _From a quick glance at pd.tk I still don't like, that the font face is hardcoded in many places. I'm tcl-illiterate, but it would be nice to have the fonts defined in just one place. One end goal IMO should be a system similar to the one in Desire Data: Here you can totally change the graphical appearance, from colors to fonts and beyond, by editing a GUI config file. With hardcoded font names everywhere this is porbably harder to realize. Also after seeing Chun's DD presentation at make art last week I fell in love with the Zoom feature of Desire Data: If like me one is sight impaired when in front of a screen (yep, I'm aproaching 40), with current Pd it is necessary to change the font size, which, even with the Deja-font and pd-extended, will still break the layout of a patch. Instead of that, zooming into a patch would be a much better solution for handicapped users. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list Mistrust authority - promote decentralization. - the hacker ethic ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc1 released // fonts
Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: I forgot to ask more questions about this. It's a significant change, but not one that I have not put considerable thought into. What font size to do use for your Pd patches? When you use fonts of this size in other apps, do you have it set to bold?. I thought about it and looked around, and I noticed that nobody that I saw uses bold fonts for text unless it's a header or special case. I use bold in every text editor and terminal I use, which is, where I use mono fonts. Normally I use Lucida Sans Mono Bold or set Bitstream Vera Sans Mono Bold. I think, in general it's best to let people choose, however it's not possible to use -typeface or -font to switch between bold and normal. Even when reading code. Also, most people don't use 10pt fonts for normal reading. For example, the default font for web pages is usually 12pt or 16pt. It's because web people optimize for Windows! Windows still has a default DPI setting of 75 IIRC which is really old school on most modern screens. On my current machine I have a DPI of 90x89, which results in Windows websites having a very small font. With small 12 laptops and high resolutions the DPI settings get even more confusing for web and GUI designers. In the long run, zooming/scaling is the only solution that could make everyone happy. I think that Pd's text is not really like reading a block of text, but maybe more like webpage menus. It seems those are mostly not in bold fonts also, but sometimes are. Menu styling is a fashion thing, which will change every year. On the site I manage (www.dradio.de) our designer made every menu bold, teh NY Times has no bold menu at all. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc1 released // fonts
Hallo, Josh Steiner hat gesagt: // Josh Steiner wrote: Frank Barknecht wrote: Also after seeing Chun's DD presentation at make art last week I fell in love with the Zoom feature of Desire Data: anyone know if there are archives of the presentations anywhere on the internets? i looked on the site but didn't see any. We're not yet ready, but it's planned. Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc1 released // fonts
On Apr 16, 2007, at 5:40 PM, Frank Barknecht wrote: Hallo, Hans-Christoph Steiner hat gesagt: // Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: I forgot to ask more questions about this. It's a significant change, but not one that I have not put considerable thought into. What font size to do use for your Pd patches? When you use fonts of this size in other apps, do you have it set to bold?. I thought about it and looked around, and I noticed that nobody that I saw uses bold fonts for text unless it's a header or special case. I use bold in every text editor and terminal I use, which is, where I use mono fonts. Normally I use Lucida Sans Mono Bold or set Bitstream Vera Sans Mono Bold. I think, in general it's best to let people choose, however it's not possible to use -typeface or -font to switch between bold and normal. Even when reading code. Also, most people don't use 10pt fonts for normal reading. For example, the default font for web pages is usually 12pt or 16pt. It's because web people optimize for Windows! Windows still has a default DPI setting of 75 IIRC which is really old school on most modern screens. On my current machine I have a DPI of 90x89, which results in Windows websites having a very small font. With small 12 laptops and high resolutions the DPI settings get even more confusing for web and GUI designers. In the long run, zooming/scaling is the only solution that could make everyone happy. I think that Pd's text is not really like reading a block of text, but maybe more like webpage menus. It seems those are mostly not in bold fonts also, but sometimes are. Menu styling is a fashion thing, which will change every year. On the site I manage (www.dradio.de) our designer made every menu bold, teh NY Times has no bold menu at all. Ideally, Pd would support custom fonts and scaling, but currently it does not. That means right now, one font needs to be the default. I just tested on Windows. Apparently I lied somewhat, it's a bit better, but still whacked. I guess I still need to do more work... what a PITA... apparently, Windows needs tk scaling 1 to be the same size as the other platforms. There must be something strange going on it that because setting tk scaling 1 on Windows makes everything look good except the menu fonts are tiny. .hc Ciao -- Frank Barknecht _ __footils.org_ __goto10.org__ ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits. - Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] [PD-announce] Pd-0.39.2-extended-rc1 released // fonts
On Mon, Apr 16, 2007 at 07:34:29PM +0200, Frank Barknecht wrote: Also after seeing Chun's DD presentation at make art last week I fell in love with the Zoom feature of Desire Data: If like me one is Ohhh, I really want to see that! Chris. --- http://mccormick.cx ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
