Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Maybe gets tweaked in not 100% what I meant. Miffed? I was with you until 'tweak'. Do you mean that in a negative or positive sense? But in either case, I don't mean to diminish actual criticism. I'd just prefer to understand it without having to: [unnecessary term( | [ unpack ] | | [ unpack ] [ unpack ] | | | | | | [unpack] [unpack] [unpack] [unpack] | | | etc. -Jonathan --- On Thu, 6/23/11, Pagano, Patrick p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edumailto:p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edu wrote: From: Pagano, Patrick p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edumailto:p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edu Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.commailto:jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.camailto:ma...@artengine.ca, pd-list@iem.atmailto:pd-list@iem.at pd-list@iem.atmailto:pd-list@iem.at Date: Thursday, June 23, 2011, 7:10 PM I think some of the issue might be with anything there is the notion of ownership one feels via participation Generated by years upon years of work and cultivation Should see it's debut as such might tweak us a bit. But even if I don't dig the guys stuff, Pd is everywhere. Patrick Pagano B.S.,M.F.A Digital Media Engineer UF Digital Worlds Institute (352)294-2020 On Jun 23, 2011, at 12:40 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: The only point that's not irrelevant is that you can load up soundfiles without needing a new physical object for each one. It's not musically interesting that it takes up less room. That the patch can become something else is a distraction from the particularly narrow point I'm making, which is that it fits the definition of technological parody offered up on this list. (If you have to change the patch to make it do something musically interesting, then we're no longer talking about that tutorial; we're talking about a new patch.) But we both see the larger point of that patch as an expression of some of the strengths of Pd. And we both realize that with very few tweaks it can be made to make interesting sounds that surpass what could (easily) be done on a turntable. It's clearly a successful tutorial patch, and in that context I see absolutely no reason to change it. Calling the patch a technological parody doesn't mean anything good or bad-- it's simply a fact. So again, I fail to see how one can merely use that term to criticize something, or how another can read the term and understand the upshot of that criticism. I think it's lazy and lacks substance-- especially troubling seeing how it first appeared as a response to the work of a newcomer to the list (I think). -Jonathan From: Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca/mc/compose?to=ma...@artengine.ca; To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jancs...@yahoo.com; Cc: pd-list@iem.at/mc/compose?to=pd-list@iem.at; Cody Loyd codyl...@gmail.com/mc/compose?to=codyl...@gmail.com; Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED Sent: Thu, Jun 23, 2011 12:38:38 PM On Wed, 22 Jun 2011, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: If you don't think so, then please tell me what you can do with that patch that's so musically interesting that it would warrant buying a modern digital computer instead of a turntable. Because it takes a lot less room, the sound doesn't have to be recorded on vinyl or shellac or whatever, and the scratching device can be easily transformed in a multitude of closely-related devices that aren't like turntables anymore. Then you can save those devices and share them with like-minded people on pd-list without having to pay kilodollars of shipping. You already have a modern digital computer for other reasons, so, it's irrelevant to think of what would be the rationale for buying one. And anyway, it's been a while that we can think of turntables as being parodies of what can be done with [tabread~] or any other kind of array subscript. ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at/mc/compose?to=Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
It's where you take something like a modern digital computer and do DSP by using an interface modeled after 30 year-old analog audio equipment. Therefore Pd is a technological parody ? I think a lot of the folks who are disappointed with this being at TED I said « Therefore Pd is a technological parody ? because it takes a modern digital computer and does DSP by using an interface modeled after 30 year-old analog audio equipment : I'm talking about a patching interface with inlets, outlets and patchcords. It has nothing to do with TED, really, just laughing about the coïncidence between the above explanation of the parody aspect and an explanation of what Pd is. ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011, Jean-Marie Adrien wrote: Hi listA link that might contribute, somehow, to the debate http://www.jeanmarie-adrien.net/documentaire-inter.htm Les paramètres d'encodage du vidéo sont mal choisis : on ressent une pulsation dans la pixélisation qui rend ce vidéo plutôt dur à regarder. Je peux pas être plus précis sur ce qu'il faudrait faire, parce que ça dépend du codec, et en plus, je connais pas beaucoup de codecs à ce point-là. ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Jun 22, 2011, at 10:09 AM, Onyx Ashanti wrote: Thanks, it's a great pleasure to have you here. cheers. Every single note you hear, is being played, as in one at a time, as a horn player does, into a looper which I use to layer everything very quickly into an arrangement then deconstruct and reconstruct on a musically relevant trajectory. There was nothing pre recorded or preconceived. Simply a controller, a database of synthesizers and a looper with effects. I am playing every single solitary note. If that sounds like it is hard to do, you're right. I'm sure about it and I can imagine the training you needed to undertake, possibly in the same way other complex gestural control require. But, that's not a constrain, right? Things don't need to be difficult to be relevant (?) things can be very easy. but easy was never a goal. my goal was to create a system to express myself the way i express myself. i love movement, i love sound. blending the two was eventually going to happen but now i am getting into the mechanics of it and learning as i go. so its not easy but the difficult parts are not something i would shy away from either. I would like an elaboration on how the system is clunky if you don't mind. First off, I feel that it is pretty streamlined for a first prototype made of cardboard that is only 3 months old. Two wireless hand units and a mouth unit. If you have suggestions as to how I might improve it at this stage, before my next stage or dev, I would love to hear it. Sure. First, I think the video and its text on TED are misleading. I understood that the work was a finished one and you were demonstrating it. It's important to know it's only three months prototype. About the clunkyness. I'm also designing a wearable biosensor so I'm happy to share my vision (strictly subjective though). Imho, the box connected to the mouthpiece which presently is hanging from the front side, could be placed on your belt. Increase the lenght of the cable, put the cable under your shirt and you're done. two reasons that not optimal. first being that i have a distinct dislike of belt packs. the internals of the box around my neck are to be included in a carbon fiber helmet which will also house the mic, various sensors and the actual heads up display that the iphone is standing in for. and two, the length of the breath tube would be inefficient at that length. the shorter the better because the tube must also be vented. As for the phone as headup display. Something that works very good is haptic feedback. You can have the Pd system send small pulses to a tiny speaker stuck to your skin. These could represent key points in a timeline, pattern changes, instrument changes, behaviour of your sensor, or even the bpm. Pulses can also have different lenghts so that you can have an array of signals. there are haptics in the the app i use in the phone. TouchOSC responds to a [vibrate message. the units use lilypad buzzers but i must reprogram my firmata to react more quickly. my haptics are mainly used for transposition points, accelerometer positioning and functions and a wonderful wrap-it-up button that allows the promoter at my gigs, to click it and it metronomically buzzes my iphone so that i know that its time to wrap it up and can end my set in a musically satisfying manner. they love that! i get emails because of that button! Along these lines, I could see a long term solution being a fast Android or iPhone on your arm that actually runs the Pd patches, connects to the Arduinos, and displays on the screen. Then you can use a standard wireless mic to transmit the sound wirelessly. Those are very reliable and low latency, as opposed to wireless networking, bluetooth, etc. But that could take a far amount of working, so I think it makes a lot of sense to iron out what the instrument should be first. And the longer you want, the cheaper and easier the phones will be to use .hc That would be invisible, and reliable. invisible is a definite no no. people need to see things. and besides. to me, that reactive touchOSC display is HOT! its my favorite part of the aesthetic. i'll tell you a secret. I dont even need it most of the time! I've got all of my functions memorized so far. i just love the way it looks. thats my sci fi geek coming out. and there are WAAAY more superfluous aethetically usefully yet not neccessary fourishes coming. @marco, how would you make this concept more beautiful or efficient? I am always a willing student in these regards. see what I meant above. Do you have any examples of said efficiency? Being an instructor, I would have expected that you would have seen the blog link on the Ted profile and researched your position before simply asserting that my concept has no value. Oh wait, nobody said your work had no value :)
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 10:52:25 +0200 Onyx Ashanti onyxasha...@gmail.com wrote: I have to practice a few hours everyday with my hands in various dificult positions, but i think that the stationary horn-stance habit started waning after about a week and a half Cos of tiring arms? I discovered similar watching students using the Kinetic with osceleton. If your home position is too ambitious it become more like stress position torture to maintain it. The shoulders get tired first, then (especially with too much weight at the hands if you are holding a controller too) the ulners go numb. every performance i do is complete improv. before a show, i only practice scales, gestures and rhythm excercises. The TED performance was comptely improv. in fact, it was supposed to be drum and bass, then half way thru i changed my mind. Jolly good. I am somewhat surprised. But how much musical flexibility would you say there was? You must start with a constrained set of sounds/synths. Can you scroll through different banks of prepared material using the HUD (I didn't really understand how that works to be honest) Thanks for sharing these thoughts. Good to have you jump in and enlighten us on the performance. cheers, a. -- Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Dope to see you here! I have just started reading the free intro of your book, Designing sound. Great read so far! Hope to get the book soon! I have to practice a few hours everyday with my hands in various dificult positions, but i think that the stationary horn-stance habit started waning after about a week and a half Cos of tiring arms? I discovered similar watching students using the Kinetic with osceleton. If your home position is too ambitious it become more like stress position torture to maintain it. The shoulders get tired first, then (especially with too much weight at the hands if you are holding a controller too) the ulners go numb. Mostly it it just training right now. In performance I don't get tired(although I sweat like I'm made of water) but I'm not doing that much yet. I want to create a parallel movement narrative that is subconscious and I don't want to get to comfortable in one position, WHILE also abstracting position data to control parameters. It's one part slight of hand because accelerometers don't need such sweeping movements and one part story telling. every performance i do is complete improv. before a show, i only practice scales, gestures and rhythm excercises. The TED performance was comptely improv. in fact, it was supposed to be drum and bass, then half way thru i changed my mind. Jolly good. I am somewhat surprised. But how much musical flexibility would you say there was? You must start with a constrained set of sounds/synths. Can you scroll through different banks of prepared material using the HUD (I didn't really understand how that works to be honest) Thanks for sharing these thoughts. Good to have you jump in and enlighten us on the performance. The HUD is only there for two reasons. So that I know my sensors work, and to look cool. What I have done is create a table based preset switching system that allows me to latch with a joystick position and jump directly to one of (currently) 4 variations per element. Elements being distinct sound types (drums, bass, keys, leads, etc) each variation has multiple variations as well, accessible by hand position and latched by joystick position. It sounds harder than it is. In fact i am two jumps from one sound to any other sound in my system. The next update will have 12 variations per element but I will need more ram for that. I just confirmed that I wi be in wiemar to present the system at the pd con. I don't know the day or time yet though. I would love to get a chance to talk with you as interactive game sound will factor heavily soon. Cheers Onyx cheers, a. -- Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Dear List, I think this technological parody discussion is very funny. As some of you may know, most (if not all) of the north indian classical instruments were designed to sound like the human voice. I'm very naive, so i 'm wondering : is a sitar a technological parody? Stupid Indians, they get blood-filled blisters on their fingers to learn how to play a technological parody! Just kidding (though it's true about the desing of indian instruments). I do believe that the output is the only important thing to consider. The fact that Aphex Twin used a sampler (or whatever, i don't know) to record the drum track to Flim doesn't matter at all to me. This is an amazing piece, that very few musicians (if any) on earth could have created. The fact that he created it on a sequencer in 97 and not on a drumkit in 1963 doesn't make any difference to me. Pierre 2011/6/23 Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Certainly could be. :) Or on the other hand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cuuRG6-IT8 -Jonathan --- On *Thu, 6/23/11, Tyler Leavitt thecryofl...@gmail.com* wrote: From: Tyler Leavitt thecryofl...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.com, pd-list@iem.at Date: Thursday, June 23, 2011, 5:25 AM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP_w_Mvh9tU Is this a technological parody? On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.comhttp://mc/compose?to=jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: Yes, it's exactly like that. But that's the way the term was defined, which-- as you point out-- covers wide array of synthesis techniques and uses of digital computers. I would just conclude that it doesn't seem a particularly enlightening term, except for a specific subset of parodies that have to do with technology. As a term of derision I think it's confusing/confused. -Jonathan --- On *Wed, 6/22/11, ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.comhttp://mc/compose?to=alan.brooker2...@gmail.com * wrote: From: ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.comhttp://mc/compose?to=alan.brooker2...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.comhttp://mc/compose?to=jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at http://mc/compose?to=pd-list@iem.at, Cody Loyd codyl...@gmail.com http://mc/compose?to=codyl...@gmail.com Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 10:44 PM On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:15 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.comhttp://mc/compose?to=jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: You're right, no one ever said that. Even me. Did you actually look at the patch? It is a technological parody of record scratching. It perfectly fits the definition given on this list. If you don't think so, then please tell me what you can do with that patch that's so musically interesting that it would warrant buying a modern digital computer instead of a turntable. Well, one might want to connect the sampler patch to another patch that produces a contrasting sound, they both would share the same values sent to the atom to change pitches ect. Don't you think to say a patch that emulates scratching sounds from audio samples is a technological parody of a scratching record player, is a bit like saying a patch that emulates the sound of the piano is a technological parody of a piano (they are both instruments)?. I think one purpose of audio software to emulate instruments ? Regarding if it is musically interesting, I'm v. sure you know record scratching is(was?) used as an instrument in hip hop and such. If a purpose of audio software is emulation of physical instruments then I don't think it should be labeled as a technological parody. Otherwise you could use the argument 'why have a computer when I can buy a physical instrument' every time? Just sharing thoughts really, interesting topic. ___ Pd-list@iem.at http://mc/compose?to=Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED / technological parody
or this? http://www.hans-w-koch.org/video/trailer.html (sorry for the selfish plug) www.hans-w-koch.net Am 23.06.2011 um 07:42 schrieb pd-list-requ...@iem.at: Message: 3 Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 22:41:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Tyler Leavitt thecryofl...@gmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: 1308807717.42650.yahoomailclas...@web39408.mail.mud.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Certainly could be. :) Or on the other hand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cuuRG6-IT8 ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED / technological parody
Having finished the bag of pop-corn takes out a can of yummy worns. hans w. koch wrote: or this? http://www.hans-w-koch.org/video/trailer.html (sorry for the selfish plug) www.hans-w-koch.net Am 23.06.2011 um 07:42 schrieb pd-list-requ...@iem.at: Message: 3 Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 22:41:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Wilkesjancs...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Tyler Leavittthecryofl...@gmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: 1308807717.42650.yahoomailclas...@web39408.mail.mud.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Certainly could be. :) Or on the other hand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cuuRG6-IT8 ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
The fact that he created it on a sequencer in 97 and not on a drumkit in 1963 doesn't make any difference to me. Ok, but could beatjazz be played in an other way than Onyx did ? If beatjazz can't be triggered pre-record patterns, it's pity (for me) that the audience think it is... By the way, if Flim had been created in 63 it would make a big difference for me... The context of a creation matters, don't you think ? Cheers... 01ivier -- Envie de tisser ? http://yamatierea.org/papatchs/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Totally agree with you. A nice illustration of the importance of the context : One of the students in my school is from Kinshasa. He was in my office one day and i asked him if he knew Konono N°1. He said yes, i know them, they play a very traditional kind of music, they are invited to play at funerals. A few weeks later i told him that Konono was playing in Paris the next week-end. He looked surprized. He said there are dozens of other bands who play this kind of music in Congo. The context always matters. We rarely invent anything at all. Pierre 2011/6/23 Olivier Baudu lamouraupeu...@gmail.com The fact that he created it on a sequencer in 97 and not on a drumkit in 1963 doesn't make any difference to me. Ok, but could beatjazz be played in an other way than Onyx did ? If beatjazz can't be triggered pre-record patterns, it's pity (for me) that the audience think it is... By the way, if Flim had been created in 63 it would make a big difference for me... The context of a creation matters, don't you think ? Cheers... 01ivier -- Envie de tisser ? http://yamatierea.org/papatchs/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED / technological parody
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 i love it. here is one from the archive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWcK6ZF-Glo Am 23.06.2011 um 10:55 schrieb hans w. koch: or this? http://www.hans-w-koch.org/video/trailer.html (sorry for the selfish plug) www.hans-w-koch.net Am 23.06.2011 um 07:42 schrieb pd-list-requ...@iem.at: Message: 3 Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 22:41:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Tyler Leavitt thecryofl...@gmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: 1308807717.42650.yahoomailclas...@web39408.mail.mud.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Certainly could be. :) Or on the other hand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cuuRG6-IT8 ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAk4DLMMACgkQ3EB7kzgMM6JH/ACZAfwSU/6FDv4Q0PI0pSOlCRzt q4sAnjLgLb4/ebJBp2DWFaISJ2a/fQbt =wVcF -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Wed, 22 Jun 2011, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: If you don't think so, then please tell me what you can do with that patch that's so musically interesting that it would warrant buying a modern digital computer instead of a turntable. Because it takes a lot less room, the sound doesn't have to be recorded on vinyl or shellac or whatever, and the scratching device can be easily transformed in a multitude of closely-related devices that aren't like turntables anymore. Then you can save those devices and share them with like-minded people on pd-list without having to pay kilodollars of shipping. You already have a modern digital computer for other reasons, so, it's irrelevant to think of what would be the rationale for buying one. And anyway, it's been a while that we can think of turntables as being parodies of what can be done with [tabread~] or any other kind of array subscript. ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Wed, 22 Jun 2011, ALAN BROOKER wrote: If a purpose of audio software is emulation of physical instruments then I don't think it should be labeled as a technological parody. Otherwise you could use the argument 'why have a computer when I can buy a physical instrument' every time? A computer running a virtual instrument is a physical instrument. technological parody is a pair of words used to increase throughput of pd-list in such a manner that it makes the archive look like june 2011 hasn't been a bad month. ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
If I was from the BIG TOWN I would be SUAVE and DEBONAIR. On 6/22/11 5:08 PM, cyrille henry c...@chnry.net wrote: Le 22/06/2011 23:02, Pagano, Patrick a écrit : How does this help? As an example of current media new dance? I am unsure. Please inform me before I start posting Robert Ashley clips. if Robert Ashley use sensors and pd, please do. c On 6/22/11 4:57 PM, cyrille henryc...@chnry.net wrote: wow, there are impressive stuff in this video. thanks for sharing it. cheers Cyrille Le 21/06/2011 18:29, Jean-Marie Adrien a écrit : Hi list A link that might contribute, somehow, to the debate http://www.jeanmarie-adrien.net/documentaire-inter.htm cheers JmA Le 21 juin 11 à 17:33, Andy Farnell a écrit : On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:16:22 -0400 (EDT) Mathieu Bouchardma...@artengine.camailto:ma...@artengine.ca wrote: That's why, conceptually, my favourite two performances are XTC's Making Plans for Nigel, in which they made a point of hitting a gong that doesn't sound like one, IIRC there was a similar thing with Vince Clarke getting the hump with a Yazoo performance and just unplugging and putting down the keyboard. But I guess that was a more sassy protest in the face of being pressured towards inauthenticity. -- Andy Farnellpadawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk mailto:padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.atmailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
The only point that#39;s not irrelevant is that you can load up soundfiles without needing a new physical object for each one. It#39;s not musically interesting that it takes up less room. That the patch can become something else is a distraction from the particularly narrow point I#39;m making, which is that it fits the definition of technological parody offered up on this list. (If you have to change the patch to make it do something musically interesting, then we#39;re no longer talking about that tutorial; we#39;re talking about a new patch.) But we both see the larger point of that patch as an expression of some of the strengths of Pd. And we both realize that with very few tweaks it can be made to make interesting sounds that surpass what could (easily) be done on a turntable. It#39;s clearly a successful tutorial patch, and in that context I see absolutely no reason to change it. Calling the patch a technological parody doesn#39;t mean anything good or bad-- it#39;s simply a fact. So again, I fail to see how one can merely use that term to criticize something, or how another can read the term and understand the upshot of that criticism. I think it#39;s lazy and lacks substance-- especially troubling seeing how it first appeared as a response to the work of a newcomer to the list (I think). -Jonathan___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
I think some of the issue might be with anything there is the notion of ownership one feels via participation Generated by years upon years of work and cultivation Should see it's debut as such might tweak us a bit. But even if I don't dig the guys stuff, Pd is everywhere. Patrick Pagano B.S.,M.F.A Digital Media Engineer UF Digital Worlds Institute (352)294-2020 On Jun 23, 2011, at 12:40 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.commailto:jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: The only point that's not irrelevant is that you can load up soundfiles without needing a new physical object for each one. It's not musically interesting that it takes up less room. That the patch can become something else is a distraction from the particularly narrow point I'm making, which is that it fits the definition of technological parody offered up on this list. (If you have to change the patch to make it do something musically interesting, then we're no longer talking about that tutorial; we're talking about a new patch.) But we both see the larger point of that patch as an expression of some of the strengths of Pd. And we both realize that with very few tweaks it can be made to make interesting sounds that surpass what could (easily) be done on a turntable. It's clearly a successful tutorial patch, and in that context I see absolutely no reason to change it. Calling the patch a technological parody doesn't mean anything good or bad-- it's simply a fact. So again, I fail to see how one can merely use that term to criticize something, or how another can read the term and understand the upshot of that criticism. I think it's lazy and lacks substance-- especially troubling seeing how it first appeared as a response to the work of a newcomer to the list (I think). -Jonathan From: Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.camailto:ma...@artengine.ca; To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.commailto:jancs...@yahoo.com; Cc: pd-list@iem.atmailto:pd-list@iem.at; Cody Loyd codyl...@gmail.commailto:codyl...@gmail.com; Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED Sent: Thu, Jun 23, 2011 12:38:38 PM On Wed, 22 Jun 2011, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: If you don't think so, then please tell me what you can do with that patch that's so musically interesting that it would warrant buying a modern digital computer instead of a turntable. Because it takes a lot less room, the sound doesn't have to be recorded on vinyl or shellac or whatever, and the scratching device can be easily transformed in a multitude of closely-related devices that aren't like turntables anymore. Then you can save those devices and share them with like-minded people on pd-list without having to pay kilodollars of shipping. You already have a modern digital computer for other reasons, so, it's irrelevant to think of what would be the rationale for buying one. And anyway, it's been a while that we can think of turntables as being parodies of what can be done with [tabread~] or any other kind of array subscript. ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.atmailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
I was with you until 'tweak'. Do you mean that in a negative or positive sense? But in either case, I don't mean to diminish actual criticism. I'd just prefer to understand it without having to: [unnecessary term( | [ unpack ] | | [ unpack ] [ unpack ] | | | | | | [unpack] [unpack] [unpack] [unpack] | | | etc. -Jonathan --- On Thu, 6/23/11, Pagano, Patrick p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edu wrote: From: Pagano, Patrick p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edu Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca, pd-list@iem.at pd-list@iem.at Date: Thursday, June 23, 2011, 7:10 PM I think some of the issue might be with anything there is the notion of ownership one feels via participation Generated by years upon years of work and cultivation Should see it's debut as such might tweak us a bit. But even if I don't dig the guys stuff,Pd is everywhere. Patrick Pagano B.S.,M.F.ADigital Media EngineerUF Digital Worlds Institute(352)294-2020 On Jun 23, 2011, at 12:40 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: The only point that's not irrelevant is that you can load up soundfiles without needing a new physical object for each one. It's not musically interesting that it takes up less room. That the patch can become something else is a distraction from the particularly narrow point I'm making, which is that it fits the definition of technological parody offered up on this list. (If you have to change the patch to make it do something musically interesting, then we're no longer talking about that tutorial; we're talking about a new patch.) But we both see the larger point of that patch as an expression of some of the strengths of Pd. And we both realize that with very few tweaks it can be made to make interesting sounds that surpass what could (easily) be done on a turntable. It's clearly a successful tutorial patch, and in that context I see absolutely no reason to change it. Calling the patch a technological parody doesn't mean anything good or bad-- it's simply a fact. So again, I fail to see how one can merely use that term to criticize something, or how another can read the term and understand the upshot of that criticism. I think it's lazy and lacks substance-- especially troubling seeing how it first appeared as a response to the work of a newcomer to the list (I think). -Jonathan From: Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca; To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com; Cc: pd-list@iem.at; Cody Loyd codyl...@gmail.com; Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED Sent: Thu, Jun 23, 2011 12:38:38 PM On Wed, 22 Jun 2011, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: If you don't think so, then please tell me what you can do with that patch that's so musically interesting that it would warrant buying a modern digital computer instead of a turntable. Because it takes a lot less room, the sound doesn't have to be recorded on vinyl or shellac or whatever, and the scratching device can be easily transformed in a multitude of closely-related devices that aren't like turntables anymore. Then you can save those devices and share them with like-minded people on pd-list without having to pay kilodollars of shipping. You already have a modern digital computer for other reasons, so, it's irrelevant to think of what would be the rationale for buying one. And anyway, it's been a while that we can think of turntables as being parodies of what can be done with [tabread~] or any other kind of array subscript. ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Jonathan, what now seems an unlucky combination of term was not meant as a derision. I tried to explain my humble arguments in a couple of extended posts and I was happy Onyx joined us. If I failed in being clear I apologize, but I'm happy, as imho, we all contributed to an interesting discussion. M But in either case, I don't mean to diminish actual criticism.? I'd just prefer to understand it without having to: [unnecessary term( | [? unpack? ] |?? | [ unpack ] [ unpack ] | | | | | | [unpack] [unpack] [unpack] [unpack] | |?? | etc. -Jonathan -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Professional, Performer, Instructor ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Lab: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net Event: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Onyx, do you think that perhaps all these questions that were raised aboutwhat exactly you were doing would encourage you to perhaps make yourperformative movements and means more evident? Or do you think this is notimportant for your goals? well right now it is literally the task of creating a language to speak with. I have seen many gestural performances, thanks to youtube, and i have seen things done with dance troupes and sensors as well, but i want to find/create something that is more interesting than representative. i believe that the representative aspect will come from being close to the performer/performance. this type of thing has to be experiences up close to negate ones bulls^t response ( ie, you see a guy fly during a concert, there is a part of your brain that screams bulls%^t!, BUT, if he were to levitate in front of you, your mind would be blown). in the next 6-18 months, i'll have a more defined spatial language. The thing is, nobody asks a violin player what he's playing (as somebody mentioned a few messages ago, sorry for the lack of proper quoting here), I believe, because these traditional instruments are already within our culture, so one knows, roughly speaking, how a violin should be played and how it might sound like. However, with gestural controllers/instruments of course it is a different matter... but with electronic music, we're all a bunch of jilted lovers because were are all so used to hearing amazing music that was created in a very unexciting manner. what this project is, currently, is ok sounding music, done in an exciting manner (to me). thats why i looked so calm on the TED video even though my effects wouldnt latch (assigned to the extremes of the accelerometer range), because i had to concentrate of multiple variables at once and no longer have the distraction of ease...every performance is a strain and it is the best feeling EVER! when doing a DJ set or an ableton set, it is hard to suck because its all pre-recorded...you can even put on a song and go to the toilet. with this, you can definitely suck, which is very exciting to me because the harder you can suck, the higher the highs are. When Onyx mentions playing at audience level, inside the club, I remembered of Dan Deacon and Girl Talk's performances which also often apply this idea, and it is interesting to observe how the audience is also curious to see what they're doing, so I guess it is a common behavior... I love what girl talk does. he covers his laptop in saran wrap to keep drinks from killing it, and he just has everyone around him for the duration of his set. THAT is the future. i have discussed this with many other alternative controller artists and we agree that the way forward for musician alternative controller artists, is to swim in the soup of sound that you are creating with a stage being for brief moments and a conveininet place to keep ones gear;-) -- www.onyx-ashanti.ning.com www.beatjazz.blogspot.com onyxashanti.bandcamp.com twitter.com/onyxashanti facebook.com/onyxashanti Germany+49 176 3543 7859 ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
welcome to the list onyx, i liked your performance, and commend you for getting exposure for it. actually, that would be Slam! and the answer would be very, but not for a few years... my only question is, how annoying must it be to get asked to play Throw Ya Guns at every gig ;) -- www.onyx-ashanti.ning.com www.beatjazz.blogspot.com onyxashanti.bandcamp.com twitter.com/onyxashanti facebook.com/onyxashanti Germany+49 176 3543 7859 ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
How long did you practice with that arrangement of controllers Onyx? Did you become human cyborg unit six of seven, tertiary adjunct of unimatrix twelve-O-five? Or was that machine following you and did you feel confident enough to jam it a bit, even at TED? I have to practice a few hours everyday with my hands in various dificult positions, but i think that the stationary horn-stance habit started waning after about a week and a half every performance i do is complete improv. before a show, i only practice scales, gestures and rhythm excercises. The TED performance was comptely improv. in fact, it was supposed to be drum and bass, then half way thru i changed my mind. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
eheh, I'm glad the concept of technological parody is giving so much to discuss :) We should put up a twitter account with the #technologicalparody (kidding) M A technological parody ought to be defined by: 1. usage of high-tech hardware to fulfill a low-tech purpose 2. an unwarranted degree of specialization or wasteful usage of hardware size/power Guitar Hero. It's a mockery of music and almost certainly a technological parody. -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Professional, Performer, Instructor ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Lab: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net Event: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
I figured that I would chime in at this point. Thanks, it's a great pleasure to have you here. Every single note you hear, is being played, as in one at a time, as a horn player does, into a looper which I use to layer everything very quickly into an arrangement then deconstruct and reconstruct on a musically relevant trajectory. There was nothing pre recorded or preconceived. Simply a controller, a database of synthesizers and a looper with effects. I am playing every single solitary note. If that sounds like it is hard to do, you're right. I'm sure about it and I can imagine the training you needed to undertake, possibly in the same way other complex gestural control require. But, that's not a constrain, right? Things don't need to be difficult to be relevant (?) I would like an elaboration on how the system is clunky if you don't mind. First off, I feel that it is pretty streamlined for a first prototype made of cardboard that is only 3 months old. Two wireless hand units and a mouth unit. If you have suggestions as to how I might improve it at this stage, before my next stage or dev, I would love to hear it. Sure. First, I think the video and its text on TED are misleading. I understood that the work was a finished one and you were demonstrating it. It's important to know it's only three months prototype. About the clunkyness. I'm also designing a wearable biosensor so I'm happy to share my vision (strictly subjective though). Imho, the box connected to the mouthpiece which presently is hanging from the front side, could be placed on your belt. Increase the lenght of the cable, put the cable under your shirt and you're done. As for the phone as headup display. Something that works very good is haptic feedback. You can have the Pd system send small pulses to a tiny speaker stuck to your skin. These could represent key points in a timeline, pattern changes, instrument changes, behaviour of your sensor, or even the bpm. Pulses can also have different lenghts so that you can have an array of signals. That would be invisible, and reliable. @marco, how would you make this concept more beautiful or efficient? I am always a willing student in these regards. see what I meant above. Do you have any examples of said efficiency? Being an instructor, I would have expected that you would have seen the blog link on the Ted profile and researched your position before simply asserting that my concept has no value. Oh wait, nobody said your work had no value :) No time to fire it up. I expressed my respect for your work since the first post, and I kept doing it in later posts too. I only said that I couldn't agree with the bold claims we make the future and making the music of the future. Now, of course, you have to promote yourself, but I felt that was not coherent. I argue about the innovative character of the work (please note, I refer to the whole work not to the system only). And I also do not mean that it is not innovative at all. It's a great system, but it lacks of directness, as Andy pointed out in a beautiful way. And I believe that, if you are interested in this topic, your performance would greatly benefit of a more direct performative outcome. The audience will clap their hands anyway after your show. However, if they don't need to ask themselves what the heck he's doing? because your interaction with the system is transparent, their overall perception of your work would be ten times greater. A successful performance is something to be achieved in two: performer and audience. A performer alone (or isolated in his own world) is only rehearsing. As someone said already, a violin player do not need to demonstrate transparency because instrumental musical performance is something intrinsic in our culture. We, as creators of new instruments or systems, still struggle to prove that we can control machines in a creative way. Perhaps, this happen because the technological knowledge of the majority of people is still very basic. Although children today play with iPhones, they have no idea how that thing works. And most of them will never know it. They just assume it does work, somehow. This is the capitalistic approach to tech culture. A general consumer do not need to know too much, otherwise she/he can start producing. One thing that I and other alternative controller artists are realizing is that we must be in the audience. Otherwise people can not see that you are actually playing. That is why when I play clubs I play from the dance floor and currently monitor with the club sound system which is hard but allows a flow of ideas that doesn't come from separating ones self from the audience. And from there people can see your fingers and gestures carve the sound. I have to disagree. I would suggest to consider that a gestural controller in a dance party has a very different scope than one in an experimental performance. Secondly, there are many other
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Thanks, it's a great pleasure to have you here. cheers. Every single note you hear, is being played, as in one at a time, as a horn player does, into a looper which I use to layer everything very quickly into an arrangement then deconstruct and reconstruct on a musically relevant trajectory. There was nothing pre recorded or preconceived. Simply a controller, a database of synthesizers and a looper with effects. I am playing every single solitary note. If that sounds like it is hard to do, you're right. I'm sure about it and I can imagine the training you needed to undertake, possibly in the same way other complex gestural control require. But, that's not a constrain, right? Things don't need to be difficult to be relevant (?) things can be very easy. but easy was never a goal. my goal was to create a system to express myself the way i express myself. i love movement, i love sound. blending the two was eventually going to happen but now i am getting into the mechanics of it and learning as i go. so its not easy but the difficult parts are not something i would shy away from either. I would like an elaboration on how the system is clunky if you don't mind. First off, I feel that it is pretty streamlined for a first prototype made of cardboard that is only 3 months old. Two wireless hand units and a mouth unit. If you have suggestions as to how I might improve it at this stage, before my next stage or dev, I would love to hear it. Sure. First, I think the video and its text on TED are misleading. I understood that the work was a finished one and you were demonstrating it. It's important to know it's only three months prototype. About the clunkyness. I'm also designing a wearable biosensor so I'm happy to share my vision (strictly subjective though). Imho, the box connected to the mouthpiece which presently is hanging from the front side, could be placed on your belt. Increase the lenght of the cable, put the cable under your shirt and you're done. two reasons that not optimal. first being that i have a distinct dislike of belt packs. the internals of the box around my neck are to be included in a carbon fiber helmet which will also house the mic, various sensors and the actual heads up display that the iphone is standing in for. and two, the length of the breath tube would be inefficient at that length. the shorter the better because the tube must also be vented. As for the phone as headup display. Something that works very good is haptic feedback. You can have the Pd system send small pulses to a tiny speaker stuck to your skin. These could represent key points in a timeline, pattern changes, instrument changes, behaviour of your sensor, or even the bpm. Pulses can also have different lenghts so that you can have an array of signals. there are haptics in the the app i use in the phone. TouchOSC responds to a [vibrate message. the units use lilypad buzzers but i must reprogram my firmata to react more quickly. my haptics are mainly used for transposition points, accelerometer positioning and functions and a wonderful wrap-it-up button that allows the promoter at my gigs, to click it and it metronomically buzzes my iphone so that i know that its time to wrap it up and can end my set in a musically satisfying manner. they love that! i get emails because of that button! That would be invisible, and reliable. invisible is a definite no no. people need to see things. and besides. to me, that reactive touchOSC display is HOT! its my favorite part of the aesthetic. i'll tell you a secret. I dont even need it most of the time! I've got all of my functions memorized so far. i just love the way it looks. thats my sci fi geek coming out. and there are WAAAY more superfluous aethetically usefully yet not neccessary fourishes coming. @marco, how would you make this concept more beautiful or efficient? I am always a willing student in these regards. see what I meant above. Do you have any examples of said efficiency? Being an instructor, I would have expected that you would have seen the blog link on the Ted profile and researched your position before simply asserting that my concept has no value. Oh wait, nobody said your work had no value :) No time to fire it up. I expressed my respect for your work since the first post, and I kept doing it in later posts too. I only said that I couldn't agree with the bold claims we make the future and making the music of the future. Now, of course, you have to promote yourself, but I felt that was not coherent. what do you see as the future? have you ever thought about it? is anyone doing it, it being your particular idea of the future? then you have an opportunity to do so. in the future i see, i envision musicians like super heroes/jazz giant hybrids. one guy is an unbelievable tap-dancer like musician...another is stands completely still and uses
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On 06/21/2011 08:05 AM, Ingo wrote: All lines are played live. There is no pre-recorded drum loop. He is using audio looping only. The drums are played note by note. ... you are right, and after having watched the video another time, i agree to your observations. (and meanwhile it has been 'officially confirmed' anyway) Well, I really don't know why there is a reason fort he audience to know what is going on. at least i want to know, and i think i am not alone... Does the audience have to know how a piano was built in order to appreciate and enjoy piano music? no, but people know what a piano or a violin is, and at least have a rough idea of how it is played, so that 'understanding what is going on' is usuallay not an issue. this is different with electronic music. i think this article by robert henke www.monolake.de/interviews/supercomputing.html explains the problems we have with life performance/electronic music quite well. bis denn! martin ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
I don't think an audience really needs to know the intricacies of what you are doing in order to appreciate a performance like this, but they do(IMO) need to at least under stand that you ARE doing something and not just triggering loops. That said... And this is just my opinion of course, I honestly think the music stands on it's own regardless of how it was created. In this case, the creation and performance of this stuff is incredibly important to the experience, but even without it, the SOUND is something that i'd listen to. And one more thing... It's not too often these days that we can really talk about how awesome the Internet is, as it has all become so commonplace, but this discussion is really something amazing.. That an international group of people can see a performance, start a real discussion about it and then get input from the performer himself with no constraints of time or place. Sent from my iPad On Jun 22, 2011, at 9:14 AM, martin brinkmann m...@martin-brinkmann.de wrote: On 06/21/2011 08:05 AM, Ingo wrote: All lines are played live. There is no pre-recorded drum loop. He is using audio looping only. The drums are played note by note. ... you are right, and after having watched the video another time, i agree to your observations. (and meanwhile it has been 'officially confirmed' anyway) Well, I really don't know why there is a reason fort he audience to know what is going on. at least i want to know, and i think i am not alone... Does the audience have to know how a piano was built in order to appreciate and enjoy piano music? no, but people know what a piano or a violin is, and at least have a rough idea of how it is played, so that 'understanding what is going on' is usuallay not an issue. this is different with electronic music. i think this article by robert henke www.monolake.de/interviews/supercomputing.html explains the problems we have with life performance/electronic music quite well. bis denn! martin ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Wed, 22 Jun 2011, Onyx Ashanti wrote: The thing is, nobody asks a violin player what he's playing (as somebody mentioned a few messages ago, sorry for the lack of proper quoting here), I believe, because these traditional instruments are already within our culture, It's not just that, it's that the number of parameters is limited. With computer music there is no way we can learn to understand what's going on in the manner that we did with traditional instruments, simply because it doesn't take many variables at a same time to become confused, and with computer music there are always more variables that can be added to confuse the audience, and those variables can be added and removed at any time. Every show is a potential opportunity to confuse the experts about what's going on, more than it ever was. but with electronic music, we're all a bunch of jilted lovers because were are all so used to hearing amazing music that was created in a very unexciting manner. what this project is, currently, is ok sounding music, done in an exciting manner (to me). thats why i looked so calm on the TED video even though my effects wouldnt latch (assigned to the extremes of the accelerometer range), because i had to concentrate of multiple variables at once and no longer have the distraction of ease...every performance is a strain and it is the best feeling EVER! The audience has no idea what you wanted it to sound like, so they have no way to measure your satisfaction other than looking at how you seem to feel like. when doing a DJ set or an ableton set, it is hard to suck because its all pre-recorded...you can even put on a song and go to the toilet. In the early days of the Pd Montréal users group (or actually, before), there was that joke that the performer could very well be checking his email while his music plays on its own. We were talking about Pd, because one can also use Pd in this manner. We were talking about the lack of proof of the « liveness » of a performance. I love what girl talk does. he covers his laptop in saran wrap to keep drinks from killing it, and he just has everyone around him for the duration of his set. THAT is the future. Doesn't that sound like the TopLap manifesto ? ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:36 +0100, Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com wrote: there are many nuances, but I mentioned that as the text in Onyx's video read: so that beatjazzers become as common as djs. Do you really need cables everywhere, sensors, a mouthpiece with two guitar pickups, a smartphone stick to your forearm, etc.. to achieve such goal? Wait a moment. I'm not saying his work is bad or anything. I made safe my respect for his work at the beginning. I'm just saying, guys it's TED and when I heard gestural and sensor control I expected another kind of work, underpinned by another kind of aesthetic, approach, and motivation. But, I probably overestimated which is the value and motivation of new technologies which need to be shown to the mainstream public. ...he clearly has musical skill with his instrument, and is able to keep the musical timing tight. These are all difficult things to do, and from what I've seen 95% of performance with new interfaces for musical expression does not achieve one of those goals solidly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxnFbU6-_eUfeature=player_embedded#at=51 that was in 2008 by Eboman, using not only real time audio looping, but also video looping and processing, plus remix of a website online. Hans, Onyx is playing mostly loops isn't he? How you know about the timing? We don't even know how much of what he's doing is really live, what is he triggering, if timing is controlled by a timeline or by his performance. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. But I saw a lot of loops playing on a timeline and some solos parts possibly produced through the mouthpiece. I'm not talking about the quality of the performance which is obviously good, reliable and enjoyable. I'm pointing at the real value of the innovation since it's a TED episode. So that Eboman performance is a nice performance, he's doing some adept gestural control of sound, and the whole thing put together seems quite engaging. I think Eboman has a very different goal than Onyx Ashanti. Eboman is a live media performance, Onyx Ashanti is a musician. The sounds that Eboman is making would really not be very engaging without the live drummer. It would just be scratching of the video, which could be a good media performance, but doesn't seem very musical. And even with the live drummer, the music is pretty repetative. Without the novelty of the video sampling the live camera, it would not stand very well as a musical performance. I think the audience would have been bored. But Eboman is doing a media performance, so it doesn't make much sense to judge it as a musical performance. From what I've seen, Onyx Ashanti is trying to dive deep into musicianship, with less of a show than your average sax soloist. Whether or not you like his music is a separate question, I think its very hard to refute that he has musical skill and talent with his instrument. And that is very rare with new interfaces for musical expression. .hc ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Hi list, Whether or not you like his music is a separate question, I think its very hard to refute that he has musical skill and talent with his instrument. And that is very rare with new interfaces for musical expression. .hc I totally agree with you but only since he's explained how works his instrument... It's pity that, on the video, the performance seems to show someone who's triggering some pre-recorded patterns... In that case, I was quite agree with the technological parody expression... :-p But it's not... and, clearly, Onyx has to be congratulated. Bravo. 01ivier. -- Envie de tisser ? http://yamatierea.org/papatchs/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
--- On Wed, 6/22/11, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: From: Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Onyx Ashanti onyxasha...@gmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 5:08 PM On Wed, 22 Jun 2011, Onyx Ashanti wrote: The thing is, nobody asks a violin player what he's playing (as somebody mentioned a few messages ago, sorry for the lack of proper quoting here), I believe, because these traditional instruments are already within our culture, It's not just that, it's that the number of parameters is limited. With computer music there is no way we can learn to understand what's going on in the manner that we did with traditional instruments, simply because it doesn't take many variables at a same time to become confused, and with computer music there are always more variables that can be added to confuse the audience, and those variables can be added and removed at any time. Every show is a potential opportunity to confuse the experts about what's going on, more than it ever was. but with electronic music, we're all a bunch of jilted lovers because were are all so used to hearing amazing music that was created in a very unexciting manner. what this project is, currently, is ok sounding music, done in an exciting manner (to me). thats why i looked so calm on the TED video even though my effects wouldnt latch (assigned to the extremes of the accelerometer range), because i had to concentrate of multiple variables at once and no longer have the distraction of ease...every performance is a strain and it is the best feeling EVER! The audience has no idea what you wanted it to sound like, so they have no way to measure your satisfaction other than looking at how you seem to feel like. when doing a DJ set or an ableton set, it is hard to suck because its all pre-recorded...you can even put on a song and go to the toilet. In the early days of the Pd Montréal users group (or actually, before), there was that joke that the performer could very well be checking his email while his music plays on its own. We were talking about Pd, because one can also use Pd in this manner. We were talking about the lack of proof of the « liveness » of a performance. I'm assuming the music was interesting. I mean if it sucked, it's a moot point, isn't it? (Though still potentially a funny joke.) Anyway, I think you're way off base. Checking email while interesting music plays isn't a joke-- it is a canary in a mine. And as artists, I hope we're smart enough to know the difference between trying to resuscitate a dead canary and getting the hell out of the mine. -Jonathan I love what girl talk does. he covers his laptop in saran wrap to keep drinks from killing it, and he just has everyone around him for the duration of his set. THAT is the future. Doesn't that sound like the TopLap manifesto ? ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Dear Miller, B07.sampler.pd is a technological parody. Thanks, Jonathan Please tell me whether that means that a) Miller should remove that tutorial, b) he should revise it to be better, c) it's a waste of time for Miller to read it at all, c) something else. If you didn't choose a or b, then please explain how all of you can possibly be in agreement about any kind of judgment, aesthetic or otherwise, or even understand the relevance of each other's responses, merely by referring to the performance as a technological parody. -Jonathan --- On Wed, 6/22/11, Olivier Baudu lamouraupeu...@gmail.com wrote: From: Olivier Baudu lamouraupeu...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at Cc: pd-list@iem.at, Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 6:59 PM Hi list, Whether or not you like his music is a separate question, I think its very hard to refute that he has musical skill and talent with his instrument. And that is very rare with new interfaces for musical expression. .hc I totally agree with you but only since he's explained how works his instrument... It's pity that, on the video, the performance seems to show someone who's triggering some pre-recorded patterns... In that case, I was quite agree with the technological parody expression... :-p But it's not... and, clearly, Onyx has to be congratulated. Bravo. 01ivier. -- Envie de tisser ? http://yamatierea.org/papatchs/ -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
I don't think anyone actually said that sampling was a technological parody. There are lots of things you can do with samples and loops that you wouldn't be able to do with whatever was being sampled. On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear Miller, B07.sampler.pd is a technological parody. Thanks, Jonathan Please tell me whether that means that a) Miller should remove that tutorial, b) he should revise it to be better, c) it's a waste of time for Miller to read it at all, c) something else. If you didn't choose a or b, then please explain how all of you can possibly be in agreement about any kind of judgment, aesthetic or otherwise, or even understand the relevance of each other's responses, merely by referring to the performance as a technological parody. -Jonathan --- On *Wed, 6/22/11, Olivier Baudu lamouraupeu...@gmail.com* wrote: From: Olivier Baudu lamouraupeu...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at Cc: pd-list@iem.at, Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 6:59 PM Hi list, Whether or not you like his music is a separate question, I think its very hard to refute that he has musical skill and talent with his instrument. And that is very rare with new interfaces for musical expression. .hc I totally agree with you but only since he's explained how works his instrument... It's pity that, on the video, the performance seems to show someone who's triggering some pre-recorded patterns... In that case, I was quite agree with the technological parody expression... :-p But it's not... and, clearly, Onyx has to be congratulated. Bravo. 01ivier. -- Envie de tisser ? http://yamatierea.org/papatchs/ -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ Pd-list@iem.at http://mc/compose?to=Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
You're right, no one ever said that. Even me. Did you actually look at the patch? It is a technological parody of record scratching. It perfectly fits the definition given on this list. If you don't think so, then please tell me what you can do with that patch that's so musically interesting that it would warrant buying a modern digital computer instead of a turntable. Of course the answer should be obvious: it's a technological parody which serves as a brilliantly succinct example of the expressivity of Pd, and that's exactly what it needs to be, because it's a tutorial. And of course one criticism of the performance referred to in this thread should be obvious, too, but isn't, because people start out with, It's a technological parody, and then stop writing. Which is what I did in my sample message to Miller, which would make it a waste of his time to read. So the correct answer is: c. -Jonathan --- On Wed, 6/22/11, Cody Loyd codyl...@gmail.com wrote: From: Cody Loyd codyl...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: pd-list@iem.at Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 8:32 PM I don't think anyone actually said that sampling was a technological parody. There are lots of things you can do with samples and loops that you wouldn't be able to do with whatever was being sampled. On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear Miller, B07.sampler.pd is a technological parody. Thanks, Jonathan Please tell me whether that means that a) Miller should remove that tutorial, b) he should revise it to be better, c) it's a waste of time for Miller to read it at all, c) something else. If you didn't choose a or b, then please explain how all of you can possibly be in agreement about any kind of judgment, aesthetic or otherwise, or even understand the relevance of each other's responses, merely by referring to the performance as a technological parody. -Jonathan --- On Wed, 6/22/11, Olivier Baudu lamouraupeu...@gmail.com wrote: From: Olivier Baudu lamouraupeu...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Hans-Christoph Steiner h...@at.or.at Cc: pd-list@iem.at, Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 6:59 PM Hi list, Whether or not you like his music is a separate question, I think its very hard to refute that he has musical skill and talent with his instrument. And that is very rare with new interfaces for musical expression. .hc I totally agree with you but only since he's explained how works his instrument... It's pity that, on the video, the performance seems to show someone who's triggering some pre-recorded patterns... In that case, I was quite agree with the technological parody expression... :-p But it's not... and, clearly, Onyx has to be congratulated. Bravo. 01ivier. -- Envie de tisser ? http://yamatierea.org/papatchs/ -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
May I suggest. http://www.amazon.com/Liveness-Performance-Mediatized-Philip-Auslander/dp/0 415196906 pp On 6/22/11 11:08 AM, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: On Wed, 22 Jun 2011, Onyx Ashanti wrote: The thing is, nobody asks a violin player what he's playing (as somebody mentioned a few messages ago, sorry for the lack of proper quoting here), I believe, because these traditional instruments are already within our culture, It's not just that, it's that the number of parameters is limited. With computer music there is no way we can learn to understand what's going on in the manner that we did with traditional instruments, simply because it doesn't take many variables at a same time to become confused, and with computer music there are always more variables that can be added to confuse the audience, and those variables can be added and removed at any time. Every show is a potential opportunity to confuse the experts about what's going on, more than it ever was. but with electronic music, we're all a bunch of jilted lovers because were are all so used to hearing amazing music that was created in a very unexciting manner. what this project is, currently, is ok sounding music, done in an exciting manner (to me). thats why i looked so calm on the TED video even though my effects wouldnt latch (assigned to the extremes of the accelerometer range), because i had to concentrate of multiple variables at once and no longer have the distraction of ease...every performance is a strain and it is the best feeling EVER! The audience has no idea what you wanted it to sound like, so they have no way to measure your satisfaction other than looking at how you seem to feel like. when doing a DJ set or an ableton set, it is hard to suck because its all pre-recorded...you can even put on a song and go to the toilet. In the early days of the Pd Montréal users group (or actually, before), there was that joke that the performer could very well be checking his email while his music plays on its own. We were talking about Pd, because one can also use Pd in this manner. We were talking about the lack of proof of the « liveness » of a performance. I love what girl talk does. he covers his laptop in saran wrap to keep drinks from killing it, and he just has everyone around him for the duration of his set. THAT is the future. Doesn't that sound like the TopLap manifesto ? ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
I second the suggestion. I'd also add this one: http://www.amazon.com/Living-Electronic-Music-Simon-Emmerson/dp/0754655482/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8qid=1308773106sr=8-1 On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:53 PM, Pagano, Patrick p...@digitalworlds.ufl.eduwrote: May I suggest. http://www.amazon.com/Liveness-Performance-Mediatized-Philip-Auslander/dp/0 415196906 pp On 6/22/11 11:08 AM, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: On Wed, 22 Jun 2011, Onyx Ashanti wrote: The thing is, nobody asks a violin player what he's playing (as somebody mentioned a few messages ago, sorry for the lack of proper quoting here), I believe, because these traditional instruments are already within our culture, It's not just that, it's that the number of parameters is limited. With computer music there is no way we can learn to understand what's going on in the manner that we did with traditional instruments, simply because it doesn't take many variables at a same time to become confused, and with computer music there are always more variables that can be added to confuse the audience, and those variables can be added and removed at any time. Every show is a potential opportunity to confuse the experts about what's going on, more than it ever was. but with electronic music, we're all a bunch of jilted lovers because were are all so used to hearing amazing music that was created in a very unexciting manner. what this project is, currently, is ok sounding music, done in an exciting manner (to me). thats why i looked so calm on the TED video even though my effects wouldnt latch (assigned to the extremes of the accelerometer range), because i had to concentrate of multiple variables at once and no longer have the distraction of ease...every performance is a strain and it is the best feeling EVER! The audience has no idea what you wanted it to sound like, so they have no way to measure your satisfaction other than looking at how you seem to feel like. when doing a DJ set or an ableton set, it is hard to suck because its all pre-recorded...you can even put on a song and go to the toilet. In the early days of the Pd Montréal users group (or actually, before), there was that joke that the performer could very well be checking his email while his music plays on its own. We were talking about Pd, because one can also use Pd in this manner. We were talking about the lack of proof of the « liveness » of a performance. I love what girl talk does. he covers his laptop in saran wrap to keep drinks from killing it, and he just has everyone around him for the duration of his set. THAT is the future. Doesn't that sound like the TopLap manifesto ? ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Pedro Oliveira www.partidoalto.net soundcloud.com/iburiedpaul ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:15 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: You're right, no one ever said that. Even me. Did you actually look at the patch? It is a technological parody of record scratching. It perfectly fits the definition given on this list. If you don't think so, then please tell me what you can do with that patch that's so musically interesting that it would warrant buying a modern digital computer instead of a turntable. Well, one might want to connect the sampler patch to another patch that produces a contrasting sound, they both would share the same values sent to the atom to change pitches ect. Don't you think to say a patch that emulates scratching sounds from audio samples is a technological parody of a scratching record player, is a bit like saying a patch that emulates the sound of the piano is a technological parody of a piano (they are both instruments)?. I think one purpose of audio software to emulate instruments ? Regarding if it is musically interesting, I'm v. sure you know record scratching is(was?) used as an instrument in hip hop and such. If a purpose of audio software is emulation of physical instruments then I don't think it should be labeled as a technological parody. Otherwise you could use the argument 'why have a computer when I can buy a physical instrument' every time? Just sharing thoughts really, interesting topic. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
They have little TEDx events here AT UF in florida and they are basically digital Like button shows. People want to be wowed also want to look over your shoulder and understand what you are doing so they may immediately dismiss it. I get the question often when some Digital bad-ass leans over to me or sneaks up to the booth and asks hey, what are you using I usually just say photo-shop On 6/21/11 2:58 PM, Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk wrote: On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:15:12 +1000 Richie Cyngler glitch...@gmail.com wrote: We could look at TED as a kind of media iceberg. The ideas showcased may often be interesting but the substance of their presentation is often lacking, Seems a fair and insightful point. TED is populist. The couple of people I know who've done talks had to work hard to squeeze an entire career into a few minutes of soundbites. You're bound to feel you sacrificed some depth and comodified yourself. -- Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
wow, there are impressive stuff in this video. thanks for sharing it. cheers Cyrille Le 21/06/2011 18:29, Jean-Marie Adrien a écrit : Hi list A link that might contribute, somehow, to the debate http://www.jeanmarie-adrien.net/documentaire-inter.htm cheers JmA Le 21 juin 11 à 17:33, Andy Farnell a écrit : On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:16:22 -0400 (EDT) Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca mailto:ma...@artengine.ca wrote: That's why, conceptually, my favourite two performances are XTC's Making Plans for Nigel, in which they made a point of hitting a gong that doesn't sound like one, IIRC there was a similar thing with Vince Clarke getting the hump with a Yazoo performance and just unplugging and putting down the keyboard. But I guess that was a more sassy protest in the face of being pressured towards inauthenticity. -- Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk mailto:padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
How does this help? As an example of current media new dance? I am unsure. Please inform me before I start posting Robert Ashley clips. On 6/22/11 4:57 PM, cyrille henry c...@chnry.net wrote: wow, there are impressive stuff in this video. thanks for sharing it. cheers Cyrille Le 21/06/2011 18:29, Jean-Marie Adrien a écrit : Hi list A link that might contribute, somehow, to the debate http://www.jeanmarie-adrien.net/documentaire-inter.htm cheers JmA Le 21 juin 11 à 17:33, Andy Farnell a écrit : On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:16:22 -0400 (EDT) Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca mailto:ma...@artengine.ca wrote: That's why, conceptually, my favourite two performances are XTC's Making Plans for Nigel, in which they made a point of hitting a gong that doesn't sound like one, IIRC there was a similar thing with Vince Clarke getting the hump with a Yazoo performance and just unplugging and putting down the keyboard. But I guess that was a more sassy protest in the face of being pressured towards inauthenticity. -- Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk mailto:padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Le 22/06/2011 23:02, Pagano, Patrick a écrit : How does this help? As an example of current media new dance? I am unsure. Please inform me before I start posting Robert Ashley clips. if Robert Ashley use sensors and pd, please do. c On 6/22/11 4:57 PM, cyrille henryc...@chnry.net wrote: wow, there are impressive stuff in this video. thanks for sharing it. cheers Cyrille Le 21/06/2011 18:29, Jean-Marie Adrien a écrit : Hi list A link that might contribute, somehow, to the debate http://www.jeanmarie-adrien.net/documentaire-inter.htm cheers JmA Le 21 juin 11 à 17:33, Andy Farnell a écrit : On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:16:22 -0400 (EDT) Mathieu Bouchardma...@artengine.camailto:ma...@artengine.ca wrote: That's why, conceptually, my favourite two performances are XTC's Making Plans for Nigel, in which they made a point of hitting a gong that doesn't sound like one, IIRC there was a similar thing with Vince Clarke getting the hump with a Yazoo performance and just unplugging and putting down the keyboard. But I guess that was a more sassy protest in the face of being pressured towards inauthenticity. -- Andy Farnellpadawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk mailto:padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.atmailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Yes, it's exactly like that. But that's the way the term was defined, which-- as you point out-- covers wide array of synthesis techniques and uses of digital computers. I would just conclude that it doesn't seem a particularly enlightening term, except for a specific subset of parodies that have to do with technology. As a term of derision I think it's confusing/confused. -Jonathan --- On Wed, 6/22/11, ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.com wrote: From: ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at, Cody Loyd codyl...@gmail.com Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 10:44 PM On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:15 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: You're right, no one ever said that. Even me. Did you actually look at the patch? It is a technological parody of record scratching. It perfectly fits the definition given on this list. If you don't think so, then please tell me what you can do with that patch that's so musically interesting that it would warrant buying a modern digital computer instead of a turntable. Well, one might want to connect the sampler patch to another patch that produces a contrasting sound, they both would share the same values sent to the atom to change pitches ect. Don't you think to say a patch that emulates scratching sounds from audio samples is a technological parody of a scratching record player, is a bit like saying a patch that emulates the sound of the piano is a technological parody of a piano (they are both instruments)?. I think one purpose of audio software to emulate instruments ? Regarding if it is musically interesting, I'm v. sure you know record scratching is(was?) used as an instrument in hip hop and such. If a purpose of audio software is emulation of physical instruments then I don't think it should be labeled as a technological parody. Otherwise you could use the argument 'why have a computer when I can buy a physical instrument' every time? Just sharing thoughts really, interesting topic. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP_w_Mvh9tU Is this a technological parody? On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: Yes, it's exactly like that. But that's the way the term was defined, which-- as you point out-- covers wide array of synthesis techniques and uses of digital computers. I would just conclude that it doesn't seem a particularly enlightening term, except for a specific subset of parodies that have to do with technology. As a term of derision I think it's confusing/confused. -Jonathan --- On *Wed, 6/22/11, ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.com* wrote: From: ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at, Cody Loyd codyl...@gmail.com Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 10:44 PM On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:15 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.comhttp://mc/compose?to=jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: You're right, no one ever said that. Even me. Did you actually look at the patch? It is a technological parody of record scratching. It perfectly fits the definition given on this list. If you don't think so, then please tell me what you can do with that patch that's so musically interesting that it would warrant buying a modern digital computer instead of a turntable. Well, one might want to connect the sampler patch to another patch that produces a contrasting sound, they both would share the same values sent to the atom to change pitches ect. Don't you think to say a patch that emulates scratching sounds from audio samples is a technological parody of a scratching record player, is a bit like saying a patch that emulates the sound of the piano is a technological parody of a piano (they are both instruments)?. I think one purpose of audio software to emulate instruments ? Regarding if it is musically interesting, I'm v. sure you know record scratching is(was?) used as an instrument in hip hop and such. If a purpose of audio software is emulation of physical instruments then I don't think it should be labeled as a technological parody. Otherwise you could use the argument 'why have a computer when I can buy a physical instrument' every time? Just sharing thoughts really, interesting topic. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Certainly could be. :) Or on the other hand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cuuRG6-IT8 -Jonathan --- On Thu, 6/23/11, Tyler Leavitt thecryofl...@gmail.com wrote: From: Tyler Leavitt thecryofl...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.com, pd-list@iem.at Date: Thursday, June 23, 2011, 5:25 AM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP_w_Mvh9tU Is this a technological parody? On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: Yes, it's exactly like that. But that's the way the term was defined, which-- as you point out-- covers wide array of synthesis techniques and uses of digital computers. I would just conclude that it doesn't seem a particularly enlightening term, except for a specific subset of parodies that have to do with technology. As a term of derision I think it's confusing/confused. -Jonathan --- On Wed, 6/22/11, ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.com wrote: From: ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at, Cody Loyd codyl...@gmail.com Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 10:44 PM On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:15 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: You're right, no one ever said that. Even me. Did you actually look at the patch? It is a technological parody of record scratching. It perfectly fits the definition given on this list. If you don't think so, then please tell me what you can do with that patch that's so musically interesting that it would warrant buying a modern digital computer instead of a turntable. Well, one might want to connect the sampler patch to another patch that produces a contrasting sound, they both would share the same values sent to the atom to change pitches ect. Don't you think to say a patch that emulates scratching sounds from audio samples is a technological parody of a scratching record player, is a bit like saying a patch that emulates the sound of the piano is a technological parody of a piano (they are both instruments)?. I think one purpose of audio software to emulate instruments ? Regarding if it is musically interesting, I'm v. sure you know record scratching is(was?) used as an instrument in hip hop and such. If a purpose of audio software is emulation of physical instruments then I don't think it should be labeled as a technological parody. Otherwise you could use the argument 'why have a computer when I can buy a physical instrument' every time? Just sharing thoughts really, interesting topic. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: pd-list-boun...@iem.at [mailto:pd-list-boun...@iem.at] Im Auftrag von martin brinkmann Gesendet: Montag, 20. Juni 2011 22:12 An: pd-list@iem.at Betreff: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED On 06/20/2011 01:43 PM, Marco Donnarumma wrote: Ingo, thanks for your explanation, I think to understand how he's playing. i do not think i do (completely), though i have only watched it twice so far. it seems that everything is based heavily on live-looping. at first i thought he was using some kind of midi/parameter-looping, like recording the chords first, and the filter/fx/whatever parameters in a second pass, but after watching it the second time, i noticed, that the chords (including sound parameters) repeat exactly while he was doing something else, like it would be the case with audio-looping. i can not tell if the chords/melodie are presets triggered with the buttons (thats probably what i would do) or played in a completely open way, maybe using a preset scale or something similar. and i wonder how he managed to sync the drumloop (if it is one, and not something recorded using the buttons/wind controller) to the chord loops recorded earlier. (in-ear) monitor and some kind of metro/click track would of course explain this. All lines are played live. There is no pre-recorded drum loop. He is using audio looping only. The drums are played note by note. He starts out with a HiHat (selected with the fingering of his windcontroller) triggered by the breath controller to play the rhythm. Then he adds the other drum sounds on top of it. Just as you would do when you program a drum pattern with a regular drum computer. He has a visible metronome on his phone that allows him to keep the tempo. Every instrumental line is added by playing it into the audio looper. The chords are fixed chords moving in parallel and are used like a melodic line. There is no sequencing! The looper seems to have several tracks that can be selected and turned on or off by some buttons. This is the reason for the coloured lights. To make an overdub with a specific instrument you need to know which instrument you will be playing. One of the buttons seems to merely toggle through the tracks of the looper. So a visible feedback (coloured LEDs) for the musician is inevitable. There are accelometers fixed to his hands which he uses for filtering. So the point of this is not the gestural control but to simply add some extra controllers as a wind controller is usually limited to a small number of parameters: notes, volume (breath control), pitchbend and maybe one or two more controllers located on the mouthpiece or some special buttons, sliders or pressure sensors that could be used for other things. Using more parts of the body than just the usual woodwind fingerings opens up the sound possibilities while still having the traditional woodwind controls. BTW these take years of practicing! So you don't want to sacrifice your skills by using the standard controls for other things than what they are meant to be in a standard way. That's the real reason for involving the whole body in his playing - to expand the number of available controllers. i think this uncertainty of what is going on 'on stage' is a general problem with electronic music, which was (obviously) not solved with this performance either, since even people who know about this stuff have only vague ideas of what is happening. for an audience with a background in electronic/computer/whatever music, a authentic and satisfying performance might be less challenging though.an obvious example is live coding, where it is totally clear to the audience what is happening. but even a 'laptop gig' becomes less boring, when you can see what is happening on the screen (of course only if there is something happening), for example in a mirror behind the performer. (works very well in very small venues as far as i have experienced) Well, I really don't know why there is a reason fort he audience to know what is going on. Does a violin player - when he plays a Mozart concerto - have to explain what position he is playing on the left hand and which bow stroke he uses? Does it make a difference to the audience if he is using spiccato or ricochet on this particular phrase? Does the audience have to know how a piano was built in order to appreciate and enjoy piano music? There is way too much technical thinking going on in a lot of electronic music. Instead of using technology to make expressive musical applications in the sense of e.g. a flute that has been around for thousands of years people go away from basic, emotional traditional musical expression and put technology first. I do not think that this kind of music can ever replace the empiric musicality that has been around since there is mankind. This might be a very personal take, but if movement is secondary in gestural control, why one uses gestural control at all
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 08:05:01 +0200 Ingo i...@miamiwave.com wrote: BTW these take years of practicing! Its an important point IMO. One cannot invent a new instrument or style without becoming proficient. You have to stand as an example to what is possible and it takes a long time. Many people exploring alternative controller technology make this error of thinking the controls can be novel and arbitrary, _and_ they will master it quickly. The mismatch here between the adaptability of human brains and machines should be grasped. Brains may flexibly adapt to any machine configuration given enough time, but they are terribly slow compared to machines that can reconfigure in a moment. Thus for humans, there is a need to fix a parametric interface mapping early on, and stick with it. As an exercise; try beating the hardest level of your favourite video game with the mouse/controls inverted. Well, I really don't know why there is a reason fort he audience to know what is going on. They do not need to know. They want to know. The performer and audience seek an emotional relationship. Maybe Kraftwerk have already answered this, but if at the end of the TED performance they had revealed that Ashanti was an android would the audience have been less or more impressed? control, why one uses gestural control at all? I have explained above what the movement of the body does. Marco's disappointment is understandable (sorry if I misinterpret this Marco). When I watched Top of the pops as a teenager, like many kids of that age I was outraged that the performers mimed. Sometimes you could see their instruments were just props. It is very insulting to someone who has invested effort and emotion to an activity to see it trivialised to a banal fashion statement. Like a soldier seeing their regimental badge worn as a punk accessory. -- Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Sorry Marco, but I can see that you have never played jazz! Marco, Unfortunately not Ingo. Would love to. I play regularly electroacoustic free improv. So perphaps we are talking a different language? Definitely! Could you elaborate your answer? If I'm missing something about the innovation of that work I'd be glad to learn :) What I have seen on your videos is very good and interesting but has absolutely nothing to do with jazz - obviously! When playing jazz you want to have control over every note that you are playing in the range of a couple milliseconds. You also want to control the timing, bending, volume, volume changes even within every note (articulation) and the sound of each individual note. In case you are playing with other people (which is not the case in this particular performance) you need to be able to react to other musicians by picking up melodic / rhythmical lines and elaborate on them in the context of the changes of the harmonic structure and build melodies on the fly that make musical, expressive and emotional sense. This cannot be achieved by triggering patterns! You're interface might be able to produce great soundscapes but it cannot get deep enough into the musical microcosms to shape each individual note within a melodic line where every single note may be only 100 ms long. It takes a completely different interface for that. It's much more like playing a saxophone or a violin where every attack, articulation, vibrato, etc counts. The electronic wind controller version has the advantage that you can produce other sounds like drums, synths, do looping and so on while still going for the same musical content. BTW I don't think Pd plays any role in what Onyx Ashanti is doing. He could use Pd for it or he could use a bunch of other boxes to do what he does. However Pd has the advantage of doing everything in one box rather then five of them. In what he is doing he is definitely not showcasing Pd. Today's available wind controllers are very limited! This is why people like Onyx build alternatives. I am experimenting myself with a custom wind controller that could overcome some of the problems that I am having with them. Ingo ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Marco's disappointment is understandable (sorry if I misinterpret this Marco). When I watched Top of the pops as a teenager, like many kids of that age I was outraged that the performers mimed. Sometimes you could see their instruments were just props. It is amazing that even most poeple in this list think that this is a playback show by simply triggering loops. Ingo ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
I think it's a shame that in this day and age we are still promoting the concept of high and low culture and so protective of peoples narrow definition of what Pd is and for. I do a fair amount of improv with Pd and it's a hell of a simpler gig playing to 18 chin-scratching middle class people aged 40+ sat on chairs (I include myself in that description) than 400 braying clubbers demanding you make them dance NOW! During Hip Hop's more militant times people like Ice T would refuse to diss someone like MC Hammer, for example. They took the attitude that he was one of them, doing his best, and making headway in an industry that was the site of the real battleground. Jb ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
glad the provocation went through. You also used that word when posting an unrelated url on LinkedIn today. Seems to be a mood that you are in. sorry Mathieu, don't know what you are talking about. I even checked my Linkedin and there's no provocation in there. You might be confused with someone else. Thus, I was just wondering that I would have appreciated TED to show some of them instead of this with cables everywhere and boxes hanging around. I wish people to stop portraying the use of visible cables-and-boxes as if it were some kind of unprofessionalism. It's not about having cables or not, it's about claiming to have discovered the future. quote from his video read we MAKE the future. It is simply wrong to state something like that on a TED video with such performance. What's a ??technological parody I mean when hi-profile tech is used to implement an approach or a concept that doesn't really require such amount of technology. Well, for producing the sound that you are producing, you don't need the equipment that you are using. For example you could pre-record it all by playing on a totally different-looking device. How many people would notice?? Mathieu, the comparison here is not useful. That's why I did not mention my work. We are talking about very different studies. But since you mentioned it, my equipment is: 1_ composed of one mic, one circuit and a common soundcard. Not the same amount of devices used in the TED video. 2_ the sound produced is quite idiosyncratic and the only sound source is coming from a sound matter specific to my body. you can probably synthesised similar sounds, but with the system you can produce a sound in few seconds, you don't need synthesis. 3_ I couldn't even play the pre-recorded sounds of the same gestures, 'cause gestures are different every time I perform. And therefore people will really notice. That's in the design. I'm not saying it's better, maybe it's a silly approach, but it's surely different. there are many nuances, but I mentioned that as the text in Onyx's video read: so that beatjazzers become as common as djs.? Do you really need cables everywhere, sensors, a mouthpiece with two guitar pickups, a smartphone stick to your forearm, etc.. to achieve such goal? Does he really need to stick to only the stated goal?? It's not an academic presentation for the sole goal of proving a point about the discourse of art. Do you usually write statements that you don't want to stick to? Hans, Onyx is playing mostly loops isn't he? How you know about the timing? We don't even know how much of what he's doing is really live, what is he triggering, if timing is controlled by a timeline or by his performance. Right. When every performance is potentially centred on a new, never-seen instrument, who in the audience is actually competent to figure out which elements are live and which ones are not?? How can I know? that's why we are discussing here. And this point seem to being raised from other people on the list. It's quite a classical and still true issue with electronic music performance. And the future might be coming along when we will find a proper solution. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. But I saw a lot of loops playing on a timeline and some solos parts possibly produced through the mouthpiece. Aren't we so unsure?? You use too many negatives, made me confused :) -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Professional, Performer, Instructor ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Lab: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net Event: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
I think the problem is really a simpler one. It applies to all kinds of technological music. It is the understanding that the audience has of the performance. [snip] It's great how you explain simple problems.. thanks :) -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Professional, Performer, Instructor ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Lab: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net Event: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
What I have seen on your videos is very good and interesting but has absolutely nothing to do with jazz - obviously! Obviously not, I believe the two thing to be not even comparable because deeply different in terms of creative outcome and perspective. When playing jazz [snip] In case you are playing with other people (which is not the case in this particular performance) you need to be able to react to other musicians by picking up melodic / rhythmical lines and elaborate on them in the context of the changes of the harmonic structure and build melodies on the fly that make musical, expressive and emotional sense. This cannot be achieved by triggering patterns! Thanks Ingo. If that's what he's doing it's a real pity the half of us couldn't get it! I imagine that such interface could have been demonstrated more properly with a trio? In that case the accuracy of each note, etc.. could possibly be more visible. Afaik, you were the only one who previously knew Ashanty work, and the only one who knew what was going on during the performance. You're interface might be able to produce great soundscapes but it cannot get deep enough into the musical microcosms to shape each individual note within a melodic line where every single note may be only 100 ms long. Sure. That's because I'm not interested in it, although it could be great. Now you make me wanna try :P [snip] This is why people like Onyx build alternatives. I am experimenting myself with a custom wind controller that could overcome some of the problems that I am having with them. Good to know, I never played around with a wind controller... sounds fun. M -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Professional, Performer, Instructor ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Lab: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net Event: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Onyx, I really appreciate you chiming in here! I just happened to read your blog after I wrote what I've described to the pd-list what you are doing with your controller. Luckily I was 100% right. I have been thinking about a controller very similar to your's since several years. I know exactly what's going on in your mind. I have already built a sound module which is optimized for wind controllers and I do not see any reason for wind controllers to look like a sax or clarinet. There are many limitations with EWIs and WX5s. It was about time somebody went other ways. And I have to say once more that I really appreciate and like your live playing / looping. Ingo -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Onyx Ashanti [mailto:onyxasha...@gmail.com] Gesendet: Dienstag, 21. Juni 2011 12:39 An: i...@miamiwave.com Betreff: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED I figured that I would chime in at this point. Every single note you hear, is being played, as in one at a time, as a horn player does, into a looper which I use to layer everything very quickly into an arrangement then deconstruct and reconstruct on a musically relevant trajectory. There was nothing pre recorded or preconceived. Simply a controller, a database of synthesizers and a looper with effects. I am playing every single solitary note. If that sounds like it is hard to do, you're right. As for not seeing how pd is used in this project, The controller is merely 3 arduinos, running hans wonderful firmata/pduino software, connected wirelessly to puredata where I created the wind controller software and gestural systems. Without pd there is no system. It's all documented from day one on my blog. No parodies involved. I would like an elaboration on how the system is clunky if you don't mind. First off, I feel that it is pretty streamlined for a first prototype made of cardboard that is only 3 months old. Two wireless hand units and a mouth unit. If you have suggestions as to how I might improve it at this stage, before my next stage or dev, I would love to hear it. @marco, how would you make this concept more beautiful or efficient? I am always a willing student in these regards. Do you have any examples of said efficiency? Being an instructor, I would have expected that you would have seen the blog link on the Ted profile and researched your position before simply asserting that my concept has no value. @Tyler. You are correct in that I don't care about making it rain granular algorithms (yet), I want to be able to express myself for fully using tools available to me. Hans and others were nice enough to help me with advice and code and it just happened that some people (Ted) other than my immediate fans found it interesting. Even now, I still busk, but this opportunity makes it a bit easier to realize some of these larger goals. The phone is used as a headup display for making sure all my sensors are doing what they are supposed to do. @richie. I have been a pro in electronic music for 15 years. Google it. One thing that I and other alternative controller artists are realizing is that we must be in the audience. Otherwise people can not see that you are actually playing. That is why when I play clubs I play from the dance floor and currently monitor with the club sound system which is hard but allows a flow of ideas that doesn't come from separating ones self from the audience. And from there people can see your fingers and gestures carve the sound. This form of performance blends my desire to connect with my space my music and my movements as intimately but, it should be noted as well, this is a 3 month old prototype so that people are discussing it and I have even moved from beta stage yet, is encouraging. If you would like to hear what is possible with this concept, go to www.onyxashanti.bandcamp.com/album/onyx-Ashanti-full-promotional-package- download-2 Or feel free to ask me. Www.beatjazz.blogspot.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
I dare someone to show me something more entertaining than that built around pure data and pduino. Greg On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Ingo i...@miamiwave.com wrote: Onyx, I really appreciate you chiming in here! I just happened to read your blog after I wrote what I've described to the pd-list what you are doing with your controller. Luckily I was 100% right. I have been thinking about a controller very similar to your's since several years. I know exactly what's going on in your mind. I have already built a sound module which is optimized for wind controllers and I do not see any reason for wind controllers to look like a sax or clarinet. There are many limitations with EWIs and WX5s. It was about time somebody went other ways. And I have to say once more that I really appreciate and like your live playing / looping. Ingo -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Onyx Ashanti [mailto:onyxasha...@gmail.com] Gesendet: Dienstag, 21. Juni 2011 12:39 An: i...@miamiwave.com Betreff: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED I figured that I would chime in at this point. Every single note you hear, is being played, as in one at a time, as a horn player does, into a looper which I use to layer everything very quickly into an arrangement then deconstruct and reconstruct on a musically relevant trajectory. There was nothing pre recorded or preconceived. Simply a controller, a database of synthesizers and a looper with effects. I am playing every single solitary note. If that sounds like it is hard to do, you're right. As for not seeing how pd is used in this project, The controller is merely 3 arduinos, running hans wonderful firmata/pduino software, connected wirelessly to puredata where I created the wind controller software and gestural systems. Without pd there is no system. It's all documented from day one on my blog. No parodies involved. I would like an elaboration on how the system is clunky if you don't mind. First off, I feel that it is pretty streamlined for a first prototype made of cardboard that is only 3 months old. Two wireless hand units and a mouth unit. If you have suggestions as to how I might improve it at this stage, before my next stage or dev, I would love to hear it. @marco, how would you make this concept more beautiful or efficient? I am always a willing student in these regards. Do you have any examples of said efficiency? Being an instructor, I would have expected that you would have seen the blog link on the Ted profile and researched your position before simply asserting that my concept has no value. @Tyler. You are correct in that I don't care about making it rain granular algorithms (yet), I want to be able to express myself for fully using tools available to me. Hans and others were nice enough to help me with advice and code and it just happened that some people (Ted) other than my immediate fans found it interesting. Even now, I still busk, but this opportunity makes it a bit easier to realize some of these larger goals. The phone is used as a headup display for making sure all my sensors are doing what they are supposed to do. @richie. I have been a pro in electronic music for 15 years. Google it. One thing that I and other alternative controller artists are realizing is that we must be in the audience. Otherwise people can not see that you are actually playing. That is why when I play clubs I play from the dance floor and currently monitor with the club sound system which is hard but allows a flow of ideas that doesn't come from separating ones self from the audience. And from there people can see your fingers and gestures carve the sound. This form of performance blends my desire to connect with my space my music and my movements as intimately but, it should be noted as well, this is a 3 month old prototype so that people are discussing it and I have even moved from beta stage yet, is encouraging. If you would like to hear what is possible with this concept, go to www.onyxashanti.bandcamp.com/album/onyx-Ashanti-full-promotional-package- download-2 Or feel free to ask me. Www.beatjazz.blogspot.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- identi.ca/reverendgreg ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
I figured that I would chime in at this point. Every single note you hear, is being played, as in one at a time, as a horn player does, into a looper which I use to layer everything very quickly into an arrangement then deconstruct and reconstruct on a musically relevant trajectory. There was nothing pre recorded or preconceived. Simply a controller, a database of synthesizers and a looper with effects. I am playing every single solitary note. If that sounds like it is hard to do, you're right. As for not seeing how pd is used in this project, The controller is merely 3 arduinos, running hans wonderful firmata/pduino software, connected wirelessly to puredata where I created the wind controller software and gestural systems. Without pd there is no system. It's all documented from day one on my blog. No parodies involved. I would like an elaboration on how the system is clunky if you don't mind. First off, I feel that it is pretty streamlined for a first prototype made of cardboard that is only 3 months old. Two wireless hand units and a mouth unit. If you have suggestions as to how I might improve it at this stage, before my next stage or dev, I would love to hear it. @marco, how would you make this concept more beautiful or efficient? I am always a willing student in these regards. Do you have any examples of said efficiency? Being an instructor, I would have expected that you would have seen the blog link on the Ted profile and researched your position before simply asserting that my concept has no value. @Tyler. You are correct in that I don't care about making it rain granular algorithms (yet), I want to be able to express myself for fully using tools available to me. Hans and others were nice enough to help me with advice and code and it just happened that some people (Ted) other than my immediate fans found it interesting. Even now, I still busk, but this opportunity makes it a bit easier to realize some of these larger goals. The phone is used as a headup display for making sure all my sensors are doing what they are supposed to do. @richie. I have been a pro in electronic music for 15 years. Google it. One thing that I and other alternative controller artists are realizing is that we must be in the audience. Otherwise people can not see that you are actually playing. That is why when I play clubs I play from the dance floor and currently monitor with the club sound system which is hard but allows a flow of ideas that doesn't come from separating ones self from the audience. And from there people can see your fingers and gestures carve the sound. This form of performance blends my desire to connect with my space my music and my movements as intimately but, it should be noted as well, this is a 3 month old prototype so that people are discussing it and I have even moved from beta stage yet, is encouraging. If you would like to hear what is possible with this concept, go to www.onyxashanti.bandcamp.com/album/onyx-Ashanti-full-promotional-package-download-2 Or feel free to ask me. Www.beatjazz.blogspot.com http://www.beatjazz.blogspot.com/ -- www.onyx-ashanti.ning.com www.beatjazz.blogspot.com onyxashanti.bandcamp.com twitter.com/onyxashanti facebook.com/onyxashanti Germany+49 176 3543 7859 ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Tee hee Welcome to the list Onyx, and well done for cracking open yet another super-juicy can'o'worms for the list to chew on. Props, Jb On 21 June 2011 13:10, Onyx Ashanti onyxasha...@gmail.com wrote: I figured that I would chime in at this point. Every single note you hear, is being played, as in one at a time, as a horn player does, into a looper which I use to layer everything very quickly into an arrangement then deconstruct and reconstruct on a musically relevant trajectory. There was nothing pre recorded or preconceived. Simply a controller, a database of synthesizers and a looper with effects. I am playing every single solitary note. If that sounds like it is hard to do, you're right. As for not seeing how pd is used in this project, The controller is merely 3 arduinos, running hans wonderful firmata/pduino software, connected wirelessly to puredata where I created the wind controller software and gestural systems. Without pd there is no system. It's all documented from day one on my blog. No parodies involved. I would like an elaboration on how the system is clunky if you don't mind. First off, I feel that it is pretty streamlined for a first prototype made of cardboard that is only 3 months old. Two wireless hand units and a mouth unit. If you have suggestions as to how I might improve it at this stage, before my next stage or dev, I would love to hear it. @marco, how would you make this concept more beautiful or efficient? I am always a willing student in these regards. Do you have any examples of said efficiency? Being an instructor, I would have expected that you would have seen the blog link on the Ted profile and researched your position before simply asserting that my concept has no value. @Tyler. You are correct in that I don't care about making it rain granular algorithms (yet), I want to be able to express myself for fully using tools available to me. Hans and others were nice enough to help me with advice and code and it just happened that some people (Ted) other than my immediate fans found it interesting. Even now, I still busk, but this opportunity makes it a bit easier to realize some of these larger goals. The phone is used as a headup display for making sure all my sensors are doing what they are supposed to do. @richie. I have been a pro in electronic music for 15 years. Google it. One thing that I and other alternative controller artists are realizing is that we must be in the audience. Otherwise people can not see that you are actually playing. That is why when I play clubs I play from the dance floor and currently monitor with the club sound system which is hard but allows a flow of ideas that doesn't come from separating ones self from the audience. And from there people can see your fingers and gestures carve the sound. This form of performance blends my desire to connect with my space my music and my movements as intimately but, it should be noted as well, this is a 3 month old prototype so that people are discussing it and I have even moved from beta stage yet, is encouraging. If you would like to hear what is possible with this concept, go to www.onyxashanti.bandcamp.com/album/onyx-Ashanti-full-promotional-package-download-2 Or feel free to ask me. Www.beatjazz.blogspot.com http://www.beatjazz.blogspot.com/ -- www.onyx-ashanti.ning.com www.beatjazz.blogspot.com onyxashanti.bandcamp.com twitter.com/onyxashanti facebook.com/onyxashanti Germany+49 176 3543 7859 ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011, Marco Donnarumma wrote: It's not about having cables or not, it's about claiming to have discovered the future. quote from his video read we MAKE the future. Ah, well, when you were complaining about the cables, you see, I thought you were talking about the cables. It is simply wrong to state something like that on a TED video with such performance. Ah, I'm also annoyed by such claims, but I don't know what I'm supposed to be expecting from TED... I don't know what it's supposed to stand for (in terms of concepts ; I don't mean the letters TED) What's a ??technological parody Your email programme is destroying all my nonbreaking spaces and my doublequotes. (I use Unicode UTF-8.) For example, the six question marks above are, in order, openquote space, space closequote space questionmark. (It happens in some other situations too) But since you mentioned it, my equipment is: 1_ composed of one mic, one circuit and a common soundcard. Not the same amount of devices used in the TED video. Sorry, I probably misremembered it, confusing it with another perf video I watched at a similar time or that sounded similar. 3_ I couldn't even play the pre-recorded sounds of the same gestures, 'cause gestures are different every time I perform. And therefore people will really notice. That's in the design. Ok. Do you usually write statements that you don't want to stick to? What does it mean to stick to ? There's a big difference between statements that I would contradict, and statements that I wouldn't be continually trying to prove by the most minimal of means just to make the point more obvious. How can I know? that's why we are discussing here. I was merely agreeing with you by saying something similar. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. But I saw a lot of loops playing on a timeline and some solos parts possibly produced through the mouthpiece. Aren't we so unsure?? You use too many negatives, made me confused :) But I ain't no non-negative ! ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011, J bz wrote: Welcome to the list Onyx, and well done for cracking open yet another super-juicy can'o'worms for the list to chew on. Worms are quite nourishing : they are a tremendous source of proteins. ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011, Andy Farnell wrote: Marco's disappointment is understandable (sorry if I misinterpret this Marco). When I watched Top of the pops as a teenager, like many kids of that age I was outraged that the performers mimed. Sometimes you could see their instruments were just props. It is very insulting to someone who has invested effort and emotion to an activity to see it trivialised to a banal fashion statement. Like a soldier seeing their regimental badge worn as a punk accessory. That's why, conceptually, my favourite two performances are XTC's Making Plans for Nigel, in which they made a point of hitting a gong that doesn't sound like one, and... oh, the other one is actually from the similar show American Bandstand : Public Image Limited's Poptones, in which they get bored of miming halfway through the song, and just go dancing with the audience. (But then, I haven't seen so many clips from TOTP and/or ABS.) ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
welcome to the list onyx, i liked your performance, and commend you for getting exposure for it. my only question is, how annoying must it be to get asked to play Throw Ya Guns at every gig ;) ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Worms are quite nourishing : they are a tremendous source of proteins. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSjPdhK2z5g ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011, J bz wrote: I think it's a shame that in this day and age we are still promoting the concept of high and low culture and so protective of peoples narrow definition of what Pd is and for. Reminds me of the idea that a social problem can't be solved by technological means... OTOH, Pd isn't only a computer programme, but as a community and a culture, it's far from homogenous. E.g. people don't quite agree on whether Pd ought to be portrayed as audio software or as general interactivity software, just to give one example aspect of the issue. ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
LOL KLF. period. enuff said!. I don't think you're in danger of going OT, the authenticity thing is right at the heart of this worm feast isn't it? If Onyx Ashanti's showed up to make a good defence of performance authenticity, there's actually a danger of constructive debate :) We laugh at TOTP, but by the late 90's I toured with bands (definitely to remain nameless) where half the gear on stage was for show. They were paying roadies to lug five or six cases of gear around for the flashing lights and the brand logos. (To proudly display my shining hypocrisy; we used to have a cool looking twin beam oscilloscope at a studio. It hardly ever got used, except when I made sure it was switched on and in shot for photos.) With beamer backdrops the laptop only performances and our live-coding of the last few years have created an extremely dull audience experience and I'm seeing recent gestural interfaces as something of a backlash against that. Even in the infancy of RjDj Amaury made a pretty show that got everyone talking, the point being it could have been done with much less gesture, but look at the style and theatre he adds to firing off a few samples. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8PiKnEioTA What we all saw in that patch and performance (as well as the moment where they became inseperable) was the efficiency an immediacy of expression. As Ingo said in a PM to me (sorry my bad on the cc Ingo), he doesn't see why artists would ever _have_ to explain their technology in order to be not labelled as a 'cheater' , in response to me saying it's mainly the other technologists who feel something fishy when they see something that's only there as a visual prop. My point would be by way of agreement, they should never _need_ to. @Ingo, I definitely didn't want to invoke the idea of cheating. It wouldn't make sense, as someone already said, a flute is technology, and to take that standard of authenticity you would have to whistle. We are going to have to take showmanship for granted here. The point is one of exposition, and to some extent simplicity is suggested. What Marco is doing with the muscular acoustic signals is almost an opposite IMHO, in its simple boldness (Its still scary noise though Marco :). You guys (Onyx and Marco) should definitely get your brains together on this... theres some middle ground between the Phantom of the Opera and Locutus of Borg ;) maybe moving the topic more towards the dance element; Remember me saying about that Nina Waisman performance I saw? To date, she is the best example of getting gestural movement and synthesis to work. But I guess she started from the POV of a dancer, not necessarily a musician (?). a. On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 14:40:40 +0100 J bz jbee...@gmail.com wrote: Well with a danger of this going completely OT... My TOTP moments are: 1. New Order always refused to mime and when they did Blue Monday they have the distinction of being the only group to perform on TOTP and their song going down the chart the next week, and then the week after it went back up again. 2. The Human League 'don't you want me baby' being the xmas no1 and just as Phil Oakey made a super pretentious pose into the camera a sneaky audience member hit him full in the mouth and up his nose with loads of 'silly-string'. 3. For cultural capital the dancer out of Shalimar doing the 1st examples of body-popping on British TV. Everyone was going nuts at school the next day. 4. KLF. On 21 June 2011 14:16, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: On Tue, 21 Jun 2011, Andy Farnell wrote: Marco's disappointment is understandable (sorry if I misinterpret this Marco). When I watched Top of the pops as a teenager, like many kids of that age I was outraged that the performers mimed. Sometimes you could see their instruments were just props. It is very insulting to someone who has invested effort and emotion to an activity to see it trivialised to a banal fashion statement. Like a soldier seeing their regimental badge worn as a punk accessory. That's why, conceptually, my favourite two performances are XTC's Making Plans for Nigel, in which they made a point of hitting a gong that doesn't sound like one, and... oh, the other one is actually from the similar show American Bandstand : Public Image Limited's Poptones, in which they get bored of miming halfway through the song, and just go dancing with the audience. (But then, I haven't seen so many clips from TOTP and/or ABS.) __**__** ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:16:22 -0400 (EDT) Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: That's why, conceptually, my favourite two performances are XTC's Making Plans for Nigel, in which they made a point of hitting a gong that doesn't sound like one, IIRC there was a similar thing with Vince Clarke getting the hump with a Yazoo performance and just unplugging and putting down the keyboard. But I guess that was a more sassy protest in the face of being pressured towards inauthenticity. -- Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Hi list A link that might contribute, somehow, to the debate http://www.jeanmarie-adrien.net/documentaire-inter.htm cheers JmA Le 21 juin 11 à 17:33, Andy Farnell a écrit : On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:16:22 -0400 (EDT) Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: That's why, conceptually, my favourite two performances are XTC's Making Plans for Nigel, in which they made a point of hitting a gong that doesn't sound like one, IIRC there was a similar thing with Vince Clarke getting the hump with a Yazoo performance and just unplugging and putting down the keyboard. But I guess that was a more sassy protest in the face of being pressured towards inauthenticity. -- Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/ listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
To loosely echo my favourite cowboy philosopher Rick Roderick: If you have an ideology the people most dangerous are those close to you with similar ideas, because they might hold you to your own values. ( it's a great gift to those in the business of divide and conquer that minor differences are easily stirred into great schisms, e.g. The Judean People's Front... splitters!). Thus, nominally democratic governments never had anything to fear from Fascism, Communism, or Radical belief systems, rather it's those who espouse freedom and democracy that need to watched, because people might begin take them seriously. That's one of the few places where the elegant suspicion of a post-modernist celebration of difference works. And why, before getting into a fight ones suspicions should be, not of ones potential enemy, but whose interests (outside the situation) would it suit that we are at odds? Then you often find it possible to trace inflammatory comments to that source. a. On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:40:40 +0100 J bz jbee...@gmail.com wrote: During Hip Hop's more militant times people like Ice T would refuse to diss someone like MC Hammer, for example. They took the attitude that he was one of them, doing his best, and making headway in an industry that was the site of the real battleground. -- Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.cawrote: On Sun, 19 Jun 2011, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: --- On Sun, 6/19/11, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: What's a « technological parody » ? It's where you take something like a modern digital computer and do DSP by using an interface modeled after 30 year-old analog audio equipment. Therefore Pd is a technological parody ? Seems like this fits into the discussion of CV's in digital synthesizers, however briefly on-topic it was :) Pd is *not* a technological parody by being able to do everything that a 30-year-old analog interface could do, because it does it better. Hardware for running Pd to accomplish the same tasks can be smaller and less specialized. There's lower noise, less distortion--things that would take a team of engineers several years to build with hardware would be programmable in Pd in less time. A technological parody ought to be defined by: 1. usage of high-tech hardware to fulfill a low-tech purpose 2. an unwarranted degree of specialization or wasteful usage of hardware size/power e.g. a wind controller shaped exactly like a clarinet, running off a DSP board, and all it does is sound exactly like a clarinet. Why don't I just mic a clarinet? Anybody else got one? Chuck ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 12:08:48 -0500 Charles Henry czhe...@gmail.com wrote: 2. an unwarranted degree of specialization or wasteful usage of hardware Anybody else got one? Chuck Kind of. How about a computer marketed as a intuitive people's communication tool that took me 35 festering minutes to find the @ key so I could send an email (that terribly unusual communication mode) ? I guess not spoiling the pretty brushed aluminium minimalist keyboard concept was more important that me *intuitively* hitting Apple+CTRL+SHIFT+FCN-ESC-N or whatever the feck it was (after I had to ask a first year undergrad). Thanks for that bit of *intuition* Jobs. You dicksplash! -- Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
As Ingo said in a PM to me (sorry my bad on the cc Ingo), Ooops! That wasn't ment to be a private mail. I thought I had it sent to the pd-list, also. I guess I pushed the wrong button! Sorry! Ingo ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 18:29:55 +0200 Jean-Marie Adrien j...@jeanmarie-adrien.net wrote: Hi list A link that might contribute, somehow, to the debate http://www.jeanmarie-adrien.net/documentaire-inter.htm cheers Thanks for sharing this. I loved the starting remarks on connecting, integrating activity being a kind of truth, and removing a tension between artists when the dancers did the conducting. The whole project of integrative art (is that a fair term?) is exciting. I don't know if I missed your point Jean-Marie, because my French is terrible and the conclusion was not notated, but for me, once the sensors appeared there came a cold disconnect. The discssion about the role of the orchestra was abit lost on me, was that a point of comparison? The dancers movement could not be married to the intelligence of the electronic orchestral notes, but they could by live performers ? Repeating myself I know, for me there must be a kind of simplicity and directness, like a tap dancer. Marcos work has it, but with crude tonalities, Onyx performance doen't have directness for me, its a confusion, but by his account it is a very sophisticated gestural performance, and the musical result is easier to digest. Is there something more to this than finding a balance? Marco, I am about to check out your more recent videos. Have you found that with some practice the musicianship part has gotten better/easier? (BTW Jean Marie, are you the same JMA who wrote that woderful chapter on modal synthesis in De Poli et al?) a. -- Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 14:10:00 +0200 Onyx Ashanti onyxasha...@gmail.com wrote: If that sounds like it is hard to do, you're right. How long did you practice with that arrangement of controllers Onyx? Did you become human cyborg unit six of seven, tertiary adjunct of unimatrix twelve-O-five? Or was that machine following you and did you feel confident enough to jam it a bit, even at TED? w/ respects, a. -- Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:15:12 +1000 Richie Cyngler glitch...@gmail.com wrote: We could look at TED as a kind of media iceberg. The ideas showcased may often be interesting but the substance of their presentation is often lacking, Seems a fair and insightful point. TED is populist. The couple of people I know who've done talks had to work hard to squeeze an entire career into a few minutes of soundbites. You're bound to feel you sacrificed some depth and comodified yourself. -- Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:08 PM, Charles Henry czhe...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.cawrote: On Sun, 19 Jun 2011, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: --- On Sun, 6/19/11, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: What's a « technological parody » ? It's where you take something like a modern digital computer and do DSP by using an interface modeled after 30 year-old analog audio equipment. Therefore Pd is a technological parody ? A technological parody ought to be defined by: 1. usage of high-tech hardware to fulfill a low-tech purpose 2. an unwarranted degree of specialization or wasteful usage of hardware size/power Guitar Hero. It's a mockery of music and almost certainly a technological parody. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
I think it is super nice that Onyx joined the list and explained himself his device. Still in the subject of performance authenticity and validation of performance... and also about audience/performer... Onyx, do you think that perhaps all these questions that were raised about what exactly you were doing would encourage you to perhaps make your performative movements and means more evident? Or do you think this is not important for your goals? The thing is, nobody asks a violin player what he's playing (as somebody mentioned a few messages ago, sorry for the lack of proper quoting here), I believe, because these traditional instruments are already within our culture, so one knows, roughly speaking, how a violin should be played and how it might sound like. However, with gestural controllers/instruments of course it is a different matter... When Onyx mentions playing at audience level, inside the club, I remembered of Dan Deacon and Girl Talk's performances which also often apply this idea, and it is interesting to observe how the audience is also curious to see what they're doing, so I guess it is a common behavior... On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 12:05 AM, Charles Henry czhe...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:08 PM, Charles Henry czhe...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 8:39 PM, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.cawrote: On Sun, 19 Jun 2011, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: --- On Sun, 6/19/11, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: What's a « technological parody » ? It's where you take something like a modern digital computer and do DSP by using an interface modeled after 30 year-old analog audio equipment. Therefore Pd is a technological parody ? A technological parody ought to be defined by: 1. usage of high-tech hardware to fulfill a low-tech purpose 2. an unwarranted degree of specialization or wasteful usage of hardware size/power Guitar Hero. It's a mockery of music and almost certainly a technological parody. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Pedro Oliveira www.partidoalto.net soundcloud.com/iburiedpaul ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Ingo, thanks for your explanation, I think to understand how he's playing. The movement looks to me secondary - it's more like a dance movement and not too much music control. This might be a very personal take, but if movement is secondary in gestural control, why one uses gestural control at all? I believe that effective and ancillary gestures are what reinforce our perception of an instrument as a musical tool, rather than a mere device. Imho many gestural controllers would benefit of a better focus on this aspect. How would you play such melodic lines (like those jazz licks) - in time - simply with gestural control? Setting an array of preset chords, triggering them with multiple switches, deploying a timeline which holds the trigger until the onset of the next beat or quarter, etc... I guess the list here could come up with many other methods. I'm not saying that's trivial, I only think that it's not the future as it is presented in the video. How would you improvise on scales, pattern or harmonic structures? After all he's a jazz player calling his music beat jazz. What do you call improvisation in this case? How much is he improvising? I can imagine he's improvising with the melodic lines, but playing samples and presets chords doesn't match my own definition of improvisation. cheers, M -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Professional, Performer, Instructor ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Lab: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net Event: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Jumping on the discussion (not a frequent poster, but I do follow), I must say I agree with Marco... but one question (kinda related, but at the same time isn't): what would consist, then, improvisation when using Pd? I mean, if you consider *free* improvisation the only thing I can think of, in five seconds, is live coding. However, if you think of an instrument there are also pre-given structures one must follow, that is, pitch range, playability, timbre and so on. Roughly, with traditional instruments (from western tradition) you can't go that far away from the 12-tone paradigm (of course, a few exceptions here and there with guys like Otomo Yoshihide for the guitar or Coltrane/Evan Parker for Saxophone), but then, again... what is *true *improvisation in the context of Pd, Max, whatever? I'm asking because, like I said, I do agree with Marco - recombining patterns doesn't consist of improvisation for me as well... and if improvisation in that case consists of playing notes over the riffs and patterns, why use a gestural controller? Just for the sake of technology? Such topic interests me a lot, I'd love to hear your thoughts :) On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.comwrote: Ingo, thanks for your explanation, I think to understand how he's playing. The movement looks to me secondary - it's more like a dance movement and not too much music control. This might be a very personal take, but if movement is secondary in gestural control, why one uses gestural control at all? I believe that effective and ancillary gestures are what reinforce our perception of an instrument as a musical tool, rather than a mere device. Imho many gestural controllers would benefit of a better focus on this aspect. How would you play such melodic lines (like those jazz licks) - in time - simply with gestural control? Setting an array of preset chords, triggering them with multiple switches, deploying a timeline which holds the trigger until the onset of the next beat or quarter, etc... I guess the list here could come up with many other methods. I'm not saying that's trivial, I only think that it's not the future as it is presented in the video. How would you improvise on scales, pattern or harmonic structures? After all he's a jazz player calling his music beat jazz. What do you call improvisation in this case? How much is he improvising? I can imagine he's improvising with the melodic lines, but playing samples and presets chords doesn't match my own definition of improvisation. cheers, M -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Professional, Performer, Instructor ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Lab: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net Event: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Pedro Oliveira www.partidoalto.net soundcloud.com/iburiedpaul ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
If the musical structure you are playing on is opened, also when the player is free to put whatever he likes, you can call it an improvisation. You don't need to be Coltrane to improvise, what the hell is that mentality - Pedro Oliveira he...@partidoalto.net a écrit : Jumping on the discussion (not a frequent poster, but I do follow), I must say I agree with Marco... but one question (kinda related, but at the same time isn't): what would consist, then, improvisation when using Pd? I mean, if you consider free improvisation the only thing I can think of, in five seconds, is live coding. However, if you think of an instrument there are also pre-given structures one must follow, that is, pitch range, playability, timbre and so on. Roughly, with traditional instruments (from western tradition) you can't go that far away from the 12-tone paradigm (of course, a few exceptions here and there with guys like Otomo Yoshihide for the guitar or Coltrane/Evan Parker for Saxophone), but then, again... what is true improvisation in the context of Pd, Max, whatever? I'm asking because, like I said, I do agree with Marco - recombining patterns doesn't consist of improvisation for me as well... and if improvisation in that case consists of playing notes over the riffs and patterns, why use a gestural controller? Just for the sake of technology? Such topic interests me a lot, I'd love to hear your thoughts :) On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com wrote: Ingo, thanks for your explanation, I think to understand how he's playing. The movement looks to me secondary - it's more like a dance movement and not too much music control. This might be a very personal take, but if movement is secondary in gestural control, why one uses gestural control at all? I believe that effective and ancillary gestures are what reinforce our perception of an instrument as a musical tool, rather than a mere device. Imho many gestural controllers would benefit of a better focus on this aspect. How would you play such melodic lines (like those jazz licks) - in time - simply with gestural control? Setting an array of preset chords, triggering them with multiple switches, deploying a timeline which holds the trigger until the onset of the next beat or quarter, etc... I guess the list here could come up with many other methods. I'm not saying that's trivial, I only think that it's not the future as it is presented in the video. How would you improvise on scales, pattern or harmonic structures? After all he's a jazz player calling his music beat jazz. What do you call improvisation in this case? How much is he improvising? I can imagine he's improvising with the melodic lines, but playing samples and presets chords doesn't match my own definition of improvisation. cheers, M -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Professional, Performer, Instructor ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Lab: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net Event: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Pedro Oliveira www.partidoalto.net soundcloud.com/iburiedpaul ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Patrice Colet ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Hi Patrice, I think you didn't get my point... I mentioned Coltrane as an example of a musician that extrapolated his own instrument from the 12-tone idea (particularly from *A Love Supreme* on). However, I think that open musical structures are a more complex subject to put it into the improvisation badge. For instance, if you take Terry Riley's In C, to name a well-known piece, its structure is fairly open, although no player improvises. This is also used in many musical pieces and it was discussed even by Umberto Eco as *open works*...* *and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they differ from improvisation... And again, what whatever he likes mean when you're using Pd? If you're the composer *and* the performer, you're free to put whatever pleases you aesthetically but that doesn't consist of improvisation, as I see. When you design a patch in Pd you don't have *all* possibilities in your hands at any given time, and that is why I think the idea of improvisation is, perhaps, misinterpreted. I'm not postulating an ultimate truth or mentality whatsoever, I'm just.. speculating. :) Cheers! On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Patrice Colet colet.patr...@free.frwrote: If the musical structure you are playing on is opened, also when the player is free to put whatever he likes, you can call it an improvisation. You don't need to be Coltrane to improvise, what the hell is that mentality - Pedro Oliveira he...@partidoalto.net a écrit : Jumping on the discussion (not a frequent poster, but I do follow), I must say I agree with Marco... but one question (kinda related, but at the same time isn't): what would consist, then, improvisation when using Pd? I mean, if you consider free improvisation the only thing I can think of, in five seconds, is live coding. However, if you think of an instrument there are also pre-given structures one must follow, that is, pitch range, playability, timbre and so on. Roughly, with traditional instruments (from western tradition) you can't go that far away from the 12-tone paradigm (of course, a few exceptions here and there with guys like Otomo Yoshihide for the guitar or Coltrane/Evan Parker for Saxophone), but then, again... what is true improvisation in the context of Pd, Max, whatever? I'm asking because, like I said, I do agree with Marco - recombining patterns doesn't consist of improvisation for me as well... and if improvisation in that case consists of playing notes over the riffs and patterns, why use a gestural controller? Just for the sake of technology? Such topic interests me a lot, I'd love to hear your thoughts :) On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com wrote: Ingo, thanks for your explanation, I think to understand how he's playing. The movement looks to me secondary - it's more like a dance movement and not too much music control. This might be a very personal take, but if movement is secondary in gestural control, why one uses gestural control at all? I believe that effective and ancillary gestures are what reinforce our perception of an instrument as a musical tool, rather than a mere device. Imho many gestural controllers would benefit of a better focus on this aspect. How would you play such melodic lines (like those jazz licks) - in time - simply with gestural control? Setting an array of preset chords, triggering them with multiple switches, deploying a timeline which holds the trigger until the onset of the next beat or quarter, etc... I guess the list here could come up with many other methods. I'm not saying that's trivial, I only think that it's not the future as it is presented in the video. How would you improvise on scales, pattern or harmonic structures? After all he's a jazz player calling his music beat jazz. What do you call improvisation in this case? How much is he improvising? I can imagine he's improvising with the melodic lines, but playing samples and presets chords doesn't match my own definition of improvisation. cheers, M -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Professional, Performer, Instructor ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Lab: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net Event: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list -- Pedro Oliveira www.partidoalto.net soundcloud.com/iburiedpaul ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Sorry Marco, but I can see that you have never played jazz! Ingo Von: Marco Donnarumma [mailto:de...@thesaddj.com] Gesendet: Montag, 20. Juni 2011 13:43 An: Ingo Cc: pd-list@iem.at Betreff: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED Ingo, thanks for your explanation, I think to understand how he's playing. The movement looks to me secondary - it's more like a dance movement and not too much music control. This might be a very personal take, but if movement is secondary in gestural control, why one uses gestural control at all? I believe that effective and ancillary gestures are what reinforce our perception of an instrument as a musical tool, rather than a mere device. Imho many gestural controllers would benefit of a better focus on this aspect. How would you play such melodic lines (like those jazz licks) - in time - simply with gestural control? Setting an array of preset chords, triggering them with multiple switches, deploying a timeline which holds the trigger until the onset of the next beat or quarter, etc... I guess the list here could come up with many other methods. I'm not saying that's trivial, I only think that it's not the future as it is presented in the video. How would you improvise on scales, pattern or harmonic structures? After all he's a jazz player calling his music beat jazz. What do you call improvisation in this case? How much is he improvising? I can imagine he's improvising with the melodic lines, but playing samples and presets chords doesn't match my own definition of improvisation. cheers, M -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Professional, Performer, Instructor ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Lab: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flx er.net Event: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
I think the problem is really a simpler one. It applies to all kinds of technological music. It is the understanding that the audience has of the performance. Most people have an idea how a flute or saxophone or guitar works. They have picked one up and had a go at playing. Indeed, many are are musicians. Thus it's possible to appreciate a wonderful virtuoso performance. When you see someone adorned with lights and technology dancing around on a dark stage it's hard to see cause and effect amidst the visual spectacle. And thus hard to differentiate man and machine. That was always the thrill of confusion with techno in the 1990s, with laser beams emanating from the magical DJ with stacks of synthesisers. It allowed only a select and geeky few to ruminate on what they had seen, vis a vis performance. For the rest it was the pure novelty and energy of the sound. It's hard to know whether you see a talented master or a slave to an electronic whip. What I crave to see in gestural music is more like Tai Chi, a dancer who looks like they are at one with the wind, but what I often see is quite violent and spasmodic, maybe representing a unspoken relationship to technology. One suspects, in the TED clip we saw, very few of the audience had any idea what was actually happening. The sound was relatively pedestrian by standards of progressive synthesis; acceptably funky tonalities. Like many situations in modern art, they are applauding with respect for the effort and totality of the performance, but also a little bit confused and politely clapping because they know something terribly clever is going on. Indeed I think some obfuscation rather than exposition was part of that act. The ambiguity of man and machine was the lure. Put it this way: (and maybe this speaks for my stupidity more than anything)... I couldn't tell what was happening and it's my business to know. I design this kind of stuff and only last week was with a class of masters students of gestural musical interface design giving their final presentations. Before I could appreciate their work each needed to explain their mappings and design criteria. It raises the questions (again I suppose); Is the challenge for these new arts, of manifold form, to legitimise the performer? Should they ever feel they have to? Are they seeking recognition as performer or technologist? Or is the spectacle (including sound) enough, whereas the audience enter into some kind of artistic contract to expect and ignore the cloak of magic ? The MSc kids clearly had a different agenda. As masters of _science_ they are required to explicate mechanism. Although the T in TED stands for technology their agenda of cultural fusion and diversity leaves plenty of room for ambiguity, so I don't think it was supposed to be taken as a demonstration of anything conceptually fresh so much as slice of fun. Unless I missed a 20 minute prelude where Ashanti explains why the system is special. To me the coolness was apparent in the preparation, and energy. Other than that, a fit, good looking black guy who can dance and bang out some beats has an certain je ne sais quoi absent with a spooky white guy making scary noises. :) That's nothing to do with Design, or with Technology, that's Entertainment. a. -- Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Bravo. On 6/20/11 10:36 AM, Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk wrote: I think the problem is really a simpler one. It applies to all kinds of technological music. It is the understanding that the audience has of the performance. Most people have an idea how a flute or saxophone or guitar works. They have picked one up and had a go at playing. Indeed, many are are musicians. Thus it's possible to appreciate a wonderful virtuoso performance. When you see someone adorned with lights and technology dancing around on a dark stage it's hard to see cause and effect amidst the visual spectacle. And thus hard to differentiate man and machine. That was always the thrill of confusion with techno in the 1990s, with laser beams emanating from the magical DJ with stacks of synthesisers. It allowed only a select and geeky few to ruminate on what they had seen, vis a vis performance. For the rest it was the pure novelty and energy of the sound. It's hard to know whether you see a talented master or a slave to an electronic whip. What I crave to see in gestural music is more like Tai Chi, a dancer who looks like they are at one with the wind, but what I often see is quite violent and spasmodic, maybe representing a unspoken relationship to technology. One suspects, in the TED clip we saw, very few of the audience had any idea what was actually happening. The sound was relatively pedestrian by standards of progressive synthesis; acceptably funky tonalities. Like many situations in modern art, they are applauding with respect for the effort and totality of the performance, but also a little bit confused and politely clapping because they know something terribly clever is going on. Indeed I think some obfuscation rather than exposition was part of that act. The ambiguity of man and machine was the lure. Put it this way: (and maybe this speaks for my stupidity more than anything)... I couldn't tell what was happening and it's my business to know. I design this kind of stuff and only last week was with a class of masters students of gestural musical interface design giving their final presentations. Before I could appreciate their work each needed to explain their mappings and design criteria. It raises the questions (again I suppose); Is the challenge for these new arts, of manifold form, to legitimise the performer? Should they ever feel they have to? Are they seeking recognition as performer or technologist? Or is the spectacle (including sound) enough, whereas the audience enter into some kind of artistic contract to expect and ignore the cloak of magic ? The MSc kids clearly had a different agenda. As masters of _science_ they are required to explicate mechanism. Although the T in TED stands for technology their agenda of cultural fusion and diversity leaves plenty of room for ambiguity, so I don't think it was supposed to be taken as a demonstration of anything conceptually fresh so much as slice of fun. Unless I missed a 20 minute prelude where Ashanti explains why the system is special. To me the coolness was apparent in the preparation, and energy. Other than that, a fit, good looking black guy who can dance and bang out some beats has an certain je ne sais quoi absent with a spooky white guy making scary noises. :) That's nothing to do with Design, or with Technology, that's Entertainment. a. -- Andy Farnell padawa...@obiwannabe.co.uk ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On 06/20/2011 01:43 PM, Marco Donnarumma wrote: Ingo, thanks for your explanation, I think to understand how he's playing. i do not think i do (completely), though i have only watched it twice so far. it seems that everything is based heavily on live-looping. at first i thought he was using some kind of midi/parameter-looping, like recording the chords first, and the filter/fx/whatever parameters in a second pass, but after watching it the second time, i noticed, that the chords (including sound parameters) repeat exactly while he was doing something else, like it would be the case with audio-looping. i can not tell if the chords/melodie are presets triggered with the buttons (thats probably what i would do) or played in a completely open way, maybe using a preset scale or something similar. and i wonder how he managed to sync the drumloop (if it is one, and not something recorded using the buttons/wind controller) to the chord loops recorded earlier. (in-ear) monitor and some kind of metro/click track would of course explain this. i think this uncertainty of what is going on 'on stage' is a general problem with electronic music, which was (obviously) not solved with this performance either, since even people who know about this stuff have only vague ideas of what is happening. for an audience with a background in electronic/computer/whatever music, a authentic and satisfying performance might be less challenging though. an obvious example is live coding, where it is totally clear to the audience what is happening. but even a 'laptop gig' becomes less boring, when you can see what is happening on the screen (of course only if there is something happening), for example in a mirror behind the performer. (works very well in very small venues as far as i have experienced) This might be a very personal take, but if movement is secondary in gestural control, why one uses gestural control at all? it is probably not secondary all the time, but only when he is doing something else (with the wind controller for example), and the previously recorded loop plays on. and even if it is only 'secondary', movement/dancing is certainly very helpful to stay in sync. bis denn! martin ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Unfortunately not Ingo. Would love to. I play regularly electroacoustic free improv. So perphaps we are talking a different language? Could you elaborate your answer? If I'm missing something about the innovation of that work I'd be glad to learn :) Thanks, M On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Ingo i...@miamiwave.com wrote: Sorry Marco, but I can see that you have never played jazz! Ingo Von: Marco Donnarumma [mailto:de...@thesaddj.com] Gesendet: Montag, 20. Juni 2011 13:43 An: Ingo Cc: pd-list@iem.at Betreff: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED Ingo, thanks for your explanation, I think to understand how he's playing. The movement looks to me secondary - it's more like a dance movement and not too much music control. This might be a very personal take, but if movement is secondary in gestural control, why one uses gestural control at all? I believe that effective and ancillary gestures are what reinforce our perception of an instrument as a musical tool, rather than a mere device. Imho many gestural controllers would benefit of a better focus on this aspect. How would you play such melodic lines (like those jazz licks) - in time - simply with gestural control? Setting an array of preset chords, triggering them with multiple switches, deploying a timeline which holds the trigger until the onset of the next beat or quarter, etc... I guess the list here could come up with many other methods. I'm not saying that's trivial, I only think that it's not the future as it is presented in the video. How would you improvise on scales, pattern or harmonic structures? After all he's a jazz player calling his music beat jazz. What do you call improvisation in this case? How much is he improvising? I can imagine he's improvising with the melodic lines, but playing samples and presets chords doesn't match my own definition of improvisation. cheers, M -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Professional, Performer, Instructor ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Lab: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flx er.net Event: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Professional, Performer, Instructor ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Lab: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net Event: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
IMHO, the TED clip was quite mediocre. As I'm a regular performer, ranging from jazz, to rock to contemporary computer music, I think the TED example does not in any way demonstrate the real possibilities with for example PD and gestural controllers. OTH, at times I've been accused of having a loud body language... FYI, if you've seen Keith Emerson doing Pics and an Exhibition (c. 1971) I can tell you that Emerson's Hammond-juggling was playback + gesture :-) /Mikael ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Mon, 20 Jun 2011, Pedro Oliveira wrote: Hi Patrice, I think you didn't get my point... I mentioned Coltrane as an example of a musician that extrapolated his own instrument from the 12-tone idea (particularly from A Love Supreme on). sticking to 12-tone or getting out of 12-tone is irrelevant to the discussion. However, I think that open musical structures are a more complex subject to put it into the improvisation badge. For instance, if you take Terry Riley's In C, to name a well-known piece, its structure is fairly open, although no player improvises. In « In C », every player improvises the switch to each next part. This is also used in many musical pieces and it was discussed even by Umberto Eco as open works... and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they differ from improvisation... What's improvisation ? (with a definition, not relying on examples) I'm not postulating an ultimate truth or mentality whatsoever, I'm just.. speculating. :) Oh yeah, but : but then, again... what is true improvisation in the context of Pd, Max, whatever? How do you separate true from false or not-so-true ? I'm asking because, like I said, I do agree with Marco - recombining patterns doesn't consist of improvisation for me as well... Live decisions are live decisions. Some of them are small and are called interpretation, some of them are big and are called improvisation. But how do people pick a clear way to separate the two concepts, and what cause does that serve ? ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011, Marco Donnarumma wrote: glad the provocation went through. You also used that word when posting an unrelated url on LinkedIn today. Seems to be a mood that you are in. Thus, I was just wondering that I would have appreciated TED to show some of them instead of this with cables everywhere and boxes hanging around. I wish people to stop portraying the use of visible cables-and-boxes as if it were some kind of unprofessionalism. What's a « technological parody » ? I mean when hi-profile tech is used to implement an approach or a concept that doesn't really require such amount of technology. Well, for producing the sound that you are producing, you don't need the equipment that you are using. For example you could pre-record it all by playing on a totally different-looking device. How many people would notice ? there are many nuances, but I mentioned that as the text in Onyx's video read: so that beatjazzers become as common as djs. Do you really need cables everywhere, sensors, a mouthpiece with two guitar pickups, a smartphone stick to your forearm, etc.. to achieve such goal? Does he really need to stick to only the stated goal ? It's not an academic presentation for the sole goal of proving a point about the discourse of art. Hans, Onyx is playing mostly loops isn't he? How you know about the timing? We don't even know how much of what he's doing is really live, what is he triggering, if timing is controlled by a timeline or by his performance. Right. When every performance is potentially centred on a new, never-seen instrument, who in the audience is actually competent to figure out which elements are live and which ones are not ? Please, correct me if I'm wrong. But I saw a lot of loops playing on a timeline and some solos parts possibly produced through the mouthpiece. Aren't we so unsure ? ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: --- On Sun, 6/19/11, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: What's a « technological parody » ? It's where you take something like a modern digital computer and do DSP by using an interface modeled after 30 year-old analog audio equipment. Therefore Pd is a technological parody ? ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Hello Pedro, J. Coltrane or the bird passed a very long time about learning and experimenting patterns that sounds good all along standards. Love supreme is from my point of view like the synthesis of all the knowledge J. C. got from playing in clubs with best jazz players. By analysing his playing I could say that it's just patterns putted together, but they did improvise though. Terry Riley with his In C idea just showed how to improvise a structure with a simple concept. The player can decide whenever he play or not, the patterns are evolving according to the sensitivity of musicians. Obviously there can be more complex way of improvising structures, but basicly it's quite the same concept. Why would something more complex would be more pertinent? In TED performance we see how interfaces would be used to interpret electronic music, unfortunately the player doesn't seem to have a lot of culture in electronic music, but maybe someone else with a lot more experience and knowledge would show a performance like great improvisators we know, I'd love to see how squarepusher would play with this ^^ The blank page proposed by matohawk is the kind of stuff that might help pd users to have an approach of improvisating with pure data or max, like it was done in jazz club, but instead of jazz standards the material is rather the objects proposed by those softwares, and certainly all the electronic stuff that has started to emerge since the birth of first synth. This subject is a door opened to a lot of speculating, cheers. - Pedro Oliveira he...@partidoalto.net a écrit : Hi Patrice, I think you didn't get my point... I mentioned Coltrane as an example of a musician that extrapolated his own instrument from the 12-tone idea (particularly from A Love Supreme on). However, I think that open musical structures are a more complex subject to put it into the improvisation badge. For instance, if you take Terry Riley's In C, to name a well-known piece, its structure is fairly open, although no player improvises. This is also used in many musical pieces and it was discussed even by Umberto Eco as open works ... and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they differ from improvisation... And again, what whatever he likes mean when you're using Pd? If you're the composer and the performer, you're free to put whatever pleases you aesthetically but that doesn't consist of improvisation, as I see. When you design a patch in Pd you don't have all possibilities in your hands at any given time, and that is why I think the idea of improvisation is, perhaps, misinterpreted. I'm not postulating an ultimate truth or mentality whatsoever, I'm just.. speculating. :) Cheers! On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Patrice Colet colet.patr...@free.fr wrote: If the musical structure you are playing on is opened, also when the player is free to put whatever he likes, you can call it an improvisation. You don't need to be Coltrane to improvise, what the hell is that mentality - Pedro Oliveira he...@partidoalto.net a écrit : Jumping on the discussion (not a frequent poster, but I do follow), I must say I agree with Marco... but one question (kinda related, but at the same time isn't): what would consist, then, improvisation when using Pd? I mean, if you consider free improvisation the only thing I can think of, in five seconds, is live coding. However, if you think of an instrument there are also pre-given structures one must follow, that is, pitch range, playability, timbre and so on. Roughly, with traditional instruments (from western tradition) you can't go that far away from the 12-tone paradigm (of course, a few exceptions here and there with guys like Otomo Yoshihide for the guitar or Coltrane/Evan Parker for Saxophone), but then, again... what is true improvisation in the context of Pd, Max, whatever? I'm asking because, like I said, I do agree with Marco - recombining patterns doesn't consist of improvisation for me as well... and if improvisation in that case consists of playing notes over the riffs and patterns, why use a gestural controller? Just for the sake of technology? Such topic interests me a lot, I'd love to hear your thoughts :) On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com wrote: Ingo, thanks for your explanation, I think to understand how he's playing. The movement looks to me secondary - it's more like a dance movement and not too much music control. This might be a very personal take, but if movement is secondary in gestural control, why one uses gestural control at all? I believe that effective and ancillary gestures are what reinforce our perception of an instrument as a musical tool, rather than a mere device. Imho many gestural controllers would benefit of a better
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
I think a lot of the folks who are disappointed with this being at TED are frustrated because they are looking at it from an academic standpoint or at least looking at it as a non-performer. You have to remember that he is performing, and on top of that, probably trying to make a living as a performer. For christ's sake his name is Onyx Ashanti and he made a new name for his music, beatjazz =). It's a little over-the-top and mediocre if you are expecting some ground-breaking, concept piece or a technical demonstration of the capabilities of Puredata... but it's not. This guy is an entertainer who is probably combining his love of electronics with his love of music... I don't see anything wrong with that. Plus... isn't this just an audition? On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.cawrote: On Sun, 19 Jun 2011, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: --- On Sun, 6/19/11, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: What's a « technological parody » ? It's where you take something like a modern digital computer and do DSP by using an interface modeled after 30 year-old analog audio equipment. Therefore Pd is a technological parody ? __**__** ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Patrice Colet to pd-list, Pedro show details 12:07 PM (1 hour ago) * In TED performance we see how interfaces would be used to interpret electronic music, unfortunately the player doesn't seem to have a lot of culture in electronic music, but maybe someone else with a lot more experience and knowledge would show a performance like great improvisators we know, I'd love to see how squarepusher would play with this ^^* Very well said! I think a lot of interesting points have been made in this discussion. It's complicated to critique creative expression/ music/ performance without seeming to be elitist and cruel, but without this discourse we would not be able to differentiate between true ingenuity and derivative mediocrity. Mainstream platforms for innovation like TED invariably showcase thinly not deeply because they are all about wow-factor and soundbites, speaking to the most general of audiences. We could look at TED as a kind of media iceberg. The ideas showcased may often be interesting but the substance of their presentation is often lacking, like the proverbial tip of the iceberg. So we should use these iceberg tips as a jumping off points to look deeper into the idea presented with our own research. Then we may (hopefully) find more interesting applications of similar ideas, for e.g. as in this case: gestural sound control. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
--- On Tue, 6/21/11, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: From: Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com Cc: Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com, pd-list@iem.at Date: Tuesday, June 21, 2011, 3:39 AM On Sun, 19 Jun 2011, Jonathan Wilkes wrote: --- On Sun, 6/19/11, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: What's a « technological parody » ? It's where you take something like a modern digital computer and do DSP by using an interface modeled after 30 year-old analog audio equipment. Therefore Pd is a technological parody ? The interface (GUI) is. Mainly in the sense of a musical parody, as if the influence of the analog synthesizer is there mainly to amuse the user, to divert him/her from the drudgery of computer music orthodoxy. The point is the term on it's own doesn't hold a value judgment. It'd be like judging Bach's Prelude in C from WTC, Book I by calling it a series of ascending arpeggios. Does that mean one thinks it's simplistic? Deceivingly simple? Boring? Elegant? Elegantly boring? Hiding an implicit judgment inside a truism is lazy discourse. -Jonathan ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
Yep, he's been building this controller with Pd for a couple of years now. A great step up from using his Yamaha WX5 wind controller playing more or less mainstream stuff. Ingo -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: pd-list-boun...@iem.at [mailto:pd-list-boun...@iem.at] Im Auftrag von Hans-Christoph Steiner Gesendet: Sonntag, 19. Juni 2011 06:45 An: pd-list@iem.at Betreff: [PD] Pd performance at TED I just wanted this performance by Onyx Ashanti as part of the TED Talks stuff. Its quite a nice performance using live sensor control of Pd: http://www.ted.com/talks/onyx_ashanti_this_is_beatjazz.html It looks like you can even see Pd on the screen behind him. .hc ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
thanks for the link HC... it seems quite sad to me that the first performance with pd at ted has to be this. With all the respect due to Onyx, but using control sensor to play as a dj seems a technological parody. Besides, the whole system looks a bit clunky, doesn't it? It surprises me how, among all the beautiful and efficient project in this field (made in Pd and not), this got to TED. Well, of course the motivation of his performance there is not he's using Pd :) my 2 cents M I just wanted this performance by Onyx Ashanti as part of the TED Talks stuff. Its quite a nice performance using live sensor control of Pd: http://www.ted.com/talks/onyx_ashanti_this_is_beatjazz.html It looks like you can even see Pd on the screen behind him. .hc -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Professional, Performer, Instructor ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Lab: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net Event: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011, Marco Donnarumma wrote: it seems quite sad to me that the first performance with pd at ted has to be this. With all the respect due to Onyx, but using control sensor to play as a dj seems a technological parody. Besides, the whole system looks a bit clunky, doesn't it? Does it ? Do you care to explain yourself ? What's a « technological parody » ? And what's that thing you call a « dj » ? You use it in your own name thesaddj. What's your relationship with that word ? ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
--- On Sun, 6/19/11, Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca wrote: From: Mathieu Bouchard ma...@artengine.ca Subject: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED To: Marco Donnarumma de...@thesaddj.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Date: Sunday, June 19, 2011, 3:50 PM On Sun, 19 Jun 2011, Marco Donnarumma wrote: it seems quite sad to me that the first performance with pd at ted has to be this. With all the respect due to Onyx, but using control sensor to play as a dj seems a technological parody. Besides, the whole system looks a bit clunky, doesn't it? Does it ? Do you care to explain yourself ? What's a « technological parody » ? It's where you take something like a modern digital computer and do DSP by using an interface modeled after 30 year-old analog audio equipment. Merely asserting this doesn't imply a value judgment, however. I'd need to say more to do that: e.g., clear lines to show data flow = good, tangled mess of wires = bad (for both analog synths and Pd) -Jonathan And what's that thing you call a « dj » ? You use it in your own name thesaddj. What's your relationship with that word ? ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
On Jun 19, 2011, at 9:50 AM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: On Sun, 19 Jun 2011, Marco Donnarumma wrote: it seems quite sad to me that the first performance with pd at ted has to be this. With all the respect due to Onyx, but using control sensor to play as a dj seems a technological parody. Besides, the whole system looks a bit clunky, doesn't it? Does it ? Do you care to explain yourself ? What's a « technological parody » ? And what's that thing you call a « dj » ? You use it in your own name thesaddj. What's your relationship with that word ? I think the key is not what it looks like, but what he does with it. He's making music with it (no ifs, ands, or buts), he clearly has musical skill with his instrument, and is able to keep the musical timing tight. These are all difficult things to do, and from what I've seen 95% of performance with new interfaces for musical expression does not achieve one of those goals solidly. .hc Making boring techno music is really easy with modern tools, but with live coding, boring techno is much harder. - Chris McCormick ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
I absolutely agree with you, Hans! Onyx is doing great live playing with traditional rhythms and phrasings using his own custom built wind controller and Pd. I'm not sure what would classify music with no rhythmical elements and scales and chords as being more artistic? Ingo -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: pd-list-boun...@iem.at [mailto:pd-list-boun...@iem.at] Im Auftrag von Hans-Christoph Steiner Gesendet: Sonntag, 19. Juni 2011 17:32 An: Mathieu Bouchard Cc: pd-list@iem.at; Marco Donnarumma Betreff: Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED On Jun 19, 2011, at 9:50 AM, Mathieu Bouchard wrote: On Sun, 19 Jun 2011, Marco Donnarumma wrote: it seems quite sad to me that the first performance with pd at ted has to be this. With all the respect due to Onyx, but using control sensor to play as a dj seems a technological parody. Besides, the whole system looks a bit clunky, doesn't it? Does it ? Do you care to explain yourself ? What's a « technological parody » ? And what's that thing you call a « dj » ? You use it in your own name thesaddj. What's your relationship with that word ? I think the key is not what it looks like, but what he does with it. He's making music with it (no ifs, ands, or buts), he clearly has musical skill with his instrument, and is able to keep the musical timing tight. These are all difficult things to do, and from what I've seen 95% of performance with new interfaces for musical expression does not achieve one of those goals solidly. .hc Making boring techno music is really easy with modern tools, but with live coding, boring techno is much harder. - Chris McCormick ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] Pd performance at TED
glad the provocation went through. Does it ? yes, in my honest and humble 2 cents. That's why I asked for opinions. There are gestural frameworks out there which are far better implemented (talking about the look since Mathieu answered). Thus, I was just wondering that I would have appreciated TED to show some of them instead of this with cables everywhere and boxes hanging around. Do you care to explain yourself ? did it above. What's a « technological parody » ? I mean when hi-profile tech is used to implement an approach or a concept that doesn't really require such amount of technology. And what's that thing you call a « dj » ? You use it in your own name thesaddj. What's your relationship with that word ? auhauha, mathieu you're a careful observer. thesaddj is a name which i bring around since i'm a teenager... now is only the name of my blog, no excuse for that :) A dj? there are many nuances, but I mentioned that as the text in Onyx's video read: so that beatjazzers become as common as djs. Do you really need cables everywhere, sensors, a mouthpiece with two guitar pickups, a smartphone stick to your forearm, etc.. to achieve such goal? Wait a moment. I'm not saying his work is bad or anything. I made safe my respect for his work at the beginning. I'm just saying, guys it's TED and when I heard gestural and sensor control I expected another kind of work, underpinned by another kind of aesthetic, approach, and motivation. But, I probably overestimated which is the value and motivation of new technologies which need to be shown to the mainstream public. ...he clearly has musical skill with his instrument, and is able to keep the musical timing tight. These are all difficult things to do, and from what I've seen 95% of performance with new interfaces for musical expression does not achieve one of those goals solidly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxnFbU6-_eUfeature=player_embedded#at=51 that was in 2008 by Eboman, using not only real time audio looping, but also video looping and processing, plus remix of a website online. Hans, Onyx is playing mostly loops isn't he? How you know about the timing? We don't even know how much of what he's doing is really live, what is he triggering, if timing is controlled by a timeline or by his performance. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. But I saw a lot of loops playing on a timeline and some solos parts possibly produced through the mouthpiece. I'm not talking about the quality of the performance which is obviously good, reliable and enjoyable. I'm pointing at the real value of the innovation since it's a TED episode. M __**__** ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC -- Marco Donnarumma Independent New Media and Sonic Arts Professional, Performer, Instructor ACE, Sound Design MSc by Research (ongoing) The University of Edinburgh, UK ~ Portfolio: http://marcodonnarumma.com Lab: http://www.thesaddj.com | http://cntrl.sourceforge.net | http://www.flxer.net Event: http://www.liveperformersmeeting.net ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] Pd performance at TED
I just wanted this performance by Onyx Ashanti as part of the TED Talks stuff. Its quite a nice performance using live sensor control of Pd: http://www.ted.com/talks/onyx_ashanti_this_is_beatjazz.html It looks like you can even see Pd on the screen behind him. .hc ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
