Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Digital Image Studio wrote: On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Digital Image Studio wrote: factor relative to FF 35mm ;-) keyword underscored. ...and? full frame is not a format name. It can be used as a format name only if supplemented by information which frame ? In citation above it is 35mm, or 135, and the crop factor is relative to full frame of 135 format. It annoys me that you people buy Canona marketing speach as if 135 was the only format used in photography. It might be for Canon users, but that's it. Some other vendors, most notable Pentax, venture in other formats. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/01/02 Tue PM 10:22:44 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Peter Fairweather wrote: Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter also nowhere else can you see pictures of his new baby... Birth of Ryan: 23 incredible shots in 51 seconds, only with my D200 and 18-200mm VR. shudder He links to this http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/71055999 from his site http://www.kenrockwell.com/gallery.htm I can't work out whether he knows it is a joke at his expense or if he takes it at, erm, face value. - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: full frame is not a format name. It can be used as a format name only if supplemented by information which frame ? In citation above it is 35mm, or 135, and the crop factor is relative to full frame of 135 format. It annoys me that you people buy Canona marketing speach as if 135 was the only format used in photography. It might be for Canon users, but that's it. Some other vendors, most notable Pentax, venture in other formats. Hmm, I think you may have more of a Canon fixation than many here, I'm just glad that they are actually doing it, they simply provide the proof that delivering a 24x36mm (is that better?) sensor is both viable and desirable. However If they provided a Canon body with K mount I'd have my cash out to exchange for product ;-) -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/3/07, mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/01/02 Tue PM 10:22:44 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Peter Fairweather wrote: Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter also nowhere else can you see pictures of his new baby... Birth of Ryan: 23 incredible shots in 51 seconds, only with my D200 and 18-200mm VR. shudder He links to this http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/71055999 from his site http://www.kenrockwell.com/gallery.htm I can't work out whether he knows it is a joke at his expense or if he takes it at, erm, face value. ROTFLMAO. He's probably blinded by his own greatness. Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Come on, dude, Canon EOS system was designed for 24x36mm format initially. When they state FULL FRAME its not too much to understand assume they mean the full 24x36mm, 35mm, 135 format, format frame. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bronek Kozicki Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 5:02 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Digital Image Studio wrote: On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Digital Image Studio wrote: factor relative to FF 35mm ;-) keyword underscored. ...and? full frame is not a format name. It can be used as a format name only if supplemented by information which frame ? In citation above it is 35mm, or 135, and the crop factor is relative to full frame of 135 format. It annoys me that you people buy Canona marketing speach as if 135 was the only format used in photography. It might be for Canon users, but that's it. Some other vendors, most notable Pentax, venture in other formats. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
they = who? Canon users or marketing? Then you are perfectly righ. But if they includes users of other systems, including medium format ones, then it becomes annoying. Pentax, opposite to Canon, is present in medium format market segment. There is no default 135 format, which is especially visible in DLSR market segment (as only Canon produces DSLR cameras in this format). B. Quoting J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Come on, dude, Canon EOS system was designed for 24x36mm format initially. When they state FULL FRAME its not too much to understand assume they mean the full 24x36mm, 35mm, 135 format, format frame. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bronek Kozicki Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 5:02 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Digital Image Studio wrote: On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Digital Image Studio wrote: factor relative to FF 35mm ;-) keyword underscored. ...and? full frame is not a format name. It can be used as a format name only if supplemented by information which frame ? In citation above it is 35mm, or 135, and the crop factor is relative to full frame of 135 format. It annoys me that you people buy Canona marketing speach as if 135 was the only format used in photography. It might be for Canon users, but that's it. Some other vendors, most notable Pentax, venture in other formats. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Your just arguing nomenclature. The majority of people on this list can't afford the current MF/LF digital bodies/backs, without selling their soul organs. So when someone refers to full frame digital, it's generally understood that they're talking 35mm full frame. Cheers, Dave On 1/3/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: they = who? Canon users or marketing? Then you are perfectly righ. But if they includes users of other systems, including medium format ones, then it becomes annoying. Pentax, opposite to Canon, is present in medium format market segment. There is no default 135 format, which is especially visible in DLSR market segment (as only Canon produces DSLR cameras in this format). B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
- Original Message - From: mike wilson Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D He links to this http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/71055999 from his site http://www.kenrockwell.com/gallery.htm I can't work out whether he knows it is a joke at his expense or if he takes it at, erm, face value. Why don't we put together a tribute to Kennyboy and see if we can get a link? William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
- Original Message - From: Bronek Kozicki Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D full frame is not a format name. I've always wondered what the crop factor was on my Pentax 6x7. Does anyone know what full frame is on 120? Note, I am not trying to add anything useful to this discourse. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
- Original Message - From: David Savage Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Your just arguing nomenclature. He's not the only person on list who argues nomenclature. I'd even hazzard a guess, without looking into my filtered emails, that I know who he is arguing with.. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Well, he certainly has an eye for color. mike wilson wrote: From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/01/02 Tue PM 10:22:44 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Peter Fairweather wrote: Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter also nowhere else can you see pictures of his new baby... Birth of Ryan: 23 incredible shots in 51 seconds, only with my D200 and 18-200mm VR. shudder He links to this http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/71055999 from his site http://www.kenrockwell.com/gallery.htm I can't work out whether he knows it is a joke at his expense or if he takes it at, erm, face value. - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/71055999 Looking again, I kind of like the rendition of the monarch, (Oh God I need professional help). mike wilson wrote: From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/01/02 Tue PM 10:22:44 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Peter Fairweather wrote: Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter also nowhere else can you see pictures of his new baby... Birth of Ryan: 23 incredible shots in 51 seconds, only with my D200 and 18-200mm VR. shudder He links to this http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/71055999 from his site http://www.kenrockwell.com/gallery.htm I can't work out whether he knows it is a joke at his expense or if he takes it at, erm, face value. - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Let's not fight over words. Tom C. From: Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 10:01:50 + Digital Image Studio wrote: On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Digital Image Studio wrote: factor relative to FF 35mm ;-) keyword underscored. ...and? full frame is not a format name. It can be used as a format name only if supplemented by information which frame ? In citation above it is 35mm, or 135, and the crop factor is relative to full frame of 135 format. It annoys me that you people buy Canona marketing speach as if 135 was the only format used in photography. It might be for Canon users, but that's it. Some other vendors, most notable Pentax, venture in other formats. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
120 is a film size, not a format. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Robb Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 11:06 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D - Original Message - From: Bronek Kozicki Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D full frame is not a format name. I've always wondered what the crop factor was on my Pentax 6x7. Does anyone know what full frame is on 120? Note, I am not trying to add anything useful to this discourse. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Quoting William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: - Original Message - From: David Savage Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Your just arguing nomenclature. He's not the only person on list who argues nomenclature. I'd even hazzard a guess, without looking into my filtered emails, that I know who he is arguing with.. Father, I sinned. I will try very hard not to do it again ;) B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Full frame would be Kodaks original format. would be 2 1/4 x 3 1/2 inches. They invented it. William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: Bronek Kozicki Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D full frame is not a format name. I've always wondered what the crop factor was on my Pentax 6x7. Does anyone know what full frame is on 120? Note, I am not trying to add anything useful to this discourse. William Robb -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
William Robb wrote: I'd even hazzard a guess, without looking into my filtered emails, that I know who he is arguing with.. Har! (Just looked at the unread count in my own Deleted bin...) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
The Monarch shot is good, if a little over-saturated. The road and treeline is a fun example of a blue/gold polarizer. The other two are crap. -Adam P. J. Alling wrote: http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/71055999 Looking again, I kind of like the rendition of the monarch, (Oh God I need professional help). mike wilson wrote: From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/01/02 Tue PM 10:22:44 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Peter Fairweather wrote: Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter also nowhere else can you see pictures of his new baby... Birth of Ryan: 23 incredible shots in 51 seconds, only with my D200 and 18-200mm VR. shudder He links to this http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/71055999 from his site http://www.kenrockwell.com/gallery.htm I can't work out whether he knows it is a joke at his expense or if he takes it at, erm, face value. - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 3/1/07, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: Note, I am not trying to add anything useful to this discourse. Mark. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Cotty wrote: On 3/1/07, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: Note, I am not trying to add anything useful to this discourse. Mark. From the 2005 quotations list: This comment is not designed to add useful discourse. - William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 3/1/07, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: Note, I am not trying to add anything useful to this discourse. Mark. From the 2005 quotations list: This comment is not designed to add useful discourse. - William Robb It appears to be a bit of a habit. ;-) Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 3/1/07, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed: From the 2005 quotations list: This comment is not designed to add useful discourse. - William Robb Smartass ;-) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
This page intentionally left blank Tom C. From: Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: pentax list PDML@pdml.net Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 22:26:08 + On 3/1/07, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed: From the 2005 quotations list: This comment is not designed to add useful discourse. - William Robb Smartass ;-) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Cotty wrote: On 3/1/07, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed: From the 2005 quotations list: This comment is not designed to add useful discourse. - William Robb Smartass ;-) Isn't he, though? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
This comment is not designed to add useful discourse. - William Robb Smartass ;-) Isn't he, though? rimshot -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This arrived in my inbox. I think it was meant to go to the list - Original Message - From: Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Quoting William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It will affect them to a certain extent, depending on the numbers. Most people aren't looking past the megapixel count. OTOH places like DPReview will trash APS-C cameras as soon as full frame becomes viable to the general market, probably in the next breath after trashing the full frame cameras for poor corner performance. has anyone seen full frame camera without severe vignetting with wide lenses? All big Canons suffer from this issue (to various degree), and apparently this is exactly why Leica M8 is cropped and not full frame. If Sony goes this way, it is only for marketing hype. And as we keep increasing sensor size, why not go twice as large, to 36x48 (cropped 645)? I do not think that manufacturing cost of such big sensor would exceed $1000 . B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. http://www.pbase.com/cameras/canon/eos_5d (only currently 281942 sample images) -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/2/07, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This arrived in my inbox. I think it was meant to go to the list - Original Message - From: Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D has anyone seen full frame camera without severe vignetting with wide lenses? All big Canons suffer from this issue (to various degree), and apparently this is exactly why Leica M8 is cropped and not full frame. If Sony goes this way, it is only for marketing hype. And as we keep increasing sensor size, why not go twice as large, to 36x48 (cropped 645)? I do not think that manufacturing cost of such big sensor would exceed $1000 . B. I've got some samples I took in store with a Canon 5D and EF 17-40mm f4 L lens. At 17mm 40mm there is vignetting, but it's easily treatable in the RAW converter. I think this says more about the lens than the camera IMO. Just my 0.02c Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Quoting David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 1/2/07, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got some samples I took in store with a Canon 5D and EF 17-40mm f4 L lens. At 17mm 40mm there is vignetting, but it's easily treatable in the RAW converter. I think this says more about the lens than the camera IMO. it tells about the whole system - light leaving lens is hitting sensor under steep angle, and microlenses are only able to focus part of this light on the silicon. This lens might be perfect on film, but sensor is sensitive to qualities that film won't notice. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. http://www.pbase.com/cameras/canon/eos_5d (only currently 281942 sample images) and how many from wide lenses ? B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. Leica M8 is croppped, although not APS. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/2/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 1/2/07, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got some samples I took in store with a Canon 5D and EF 17-40mm f4 L lens. At 17mm 40mm there is vignetting, but it's easily treatable in the RAW converter. I think this says more about the lens than the camera IMO. it tells about the whole system - light leaving lens is hitting sensor under steep angle, and microlenses are only able to focus part of this light on the silicon. This lens might be perfect on film, but sensor is sensitive to qualities that film won't notice. So I take it your not a fan aft the 35mm full frame DSLR concept. Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. http://www.pbase.com/cameras/canon/eos_5d (only currently 281942 sample images) and how many from wide lenses ? Plenty if you'd care to look, and only a handful of examples with vignetting as a keyword. http://www.pbase.com/dreamndigital/vignette It's just not the problem it's made out to be in most normal shooting circumstances. This reminds me how some people whine that the SMCP-A50/1.2 is soft and vignettes, sure it vignettes a little but when it's really needed wide open then vignetting is likely the photographers last concern. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/3/07, Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. http://www.pbase.com/cameras/canon/eos_5d (only currently 281942 sample images) and how many from wide lenses ? Plenty if you'd care to look, and only a handful of examples with vignetting as a keyword. http://www.pbase.com/dreamndigital/vignette It's just not the problem it's made out to be in most normal shooting circumstances. But it's a disaster if your a professional brick wall photographer. Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Quoting David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So I take it your not a fan aft the 35mm full frame DSLR concept. I am not. Or maybe this whole Canon propaganda just started p**ng me off. I came from 6x7 (Pentacon Six) and see nothing special in 135 format, except maybe balance of speed and quality for sport photographers and habit of many, many photographers. But habits can be challenged and sport photographers do not really care that much for image quality :-P B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Hell, many Canon WA lenses, (all WA lenses on 35mm to some extent, but Canon has some of the worst, and most expensive), were problematic on film as far as vignetting was concerned. Why would they be better on Digital? I think that Leica partly picked the 1.3x crop Kodak sensor so their price would be merely astronomical not US Federal Budget sized. William Robb wrote: This arrived in my inbox. I think it was meant to go to the list - Original Message - From: Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Quoting William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It will affect them to a certain extent, depending on the numbers. Most people aren't looking past the megapixel count. OTOH places like DPReview will trash APS-C cameras as soon as full frame becomes viable to the general market, probably in the next breath after trashing the full frame cameras for poor corner performance. has anyone seen full frame camera without severe vignetting with wide lenses? All big Canons suffer from this issue (to various degree), and apparently this is exactly why Leica M8 is cropped and not full frame. If Sony goes this way, it is only for marketing hype. And as we keep increasing sensor size, why not go twice as large, to 36x48 (cropped 645)? I do not think that manufacturing cost of such big sensor would exceed $1000 . B. -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
I am fond of APS-C but not despising FF. I am just satisfied with the current performance and compactness of gears of APS-C DSLR. And of course I have no intention whatsoever to bring out some $3,000 for essentially nothing more than just a camera. This might change if and when the cost/performance ratio becomes more convincing. BTW, this FF vs APS-C subject is a hot topic everywhere including of course Japan. What they call blind test is rampant. They exhibit images taken by various cameras including 5D (usually more than 5 images taken by different cameras) and see if anyone can tell the difference. This of course is more for an entertainment and no formal testing etc, and testing bases are not uniform, let alone they are all web images. For 5 or so games, no one so far could tell which was 5D images. This of course does not say anything about the performance of 5D (FF enthusiasts, don't get too excited about it. It's just a game :-). But it does tell some truth about the level of difference between APS-C and FF at the current state of the art in everyday shooting. And someone summarized their feeling by each brand faction Canon faction: I can't tell the difference from APS-C image even though I paid so much of my precious money. I have to cry. Sonyαfaction: Sony has lost credibility in manufacturing in recent years, so we will consider it AFTER they ever offer FF. Pentax faction: I can take excellent images without FF now. I do not need it. Nikon faction: Nikon tells us nothing, and why are we wasting time on FF fever? If you want 35mm FF, buy film cameras. So the debate continues. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Listen to the new guy lecturing us. Interesting but we've been over this umpteen thousand times. Most of what you're saying is known to even the most technically obtuse on this list. Very good 35mm lenses work well on the Canon FF digital cameras. This is testified to by the number of Pentax and other manufacturers ultra wide lenses converted to EOS mount or used with an adapter by Canon shooters in spite of the obvious limitations imposed upon them by doing this. Your arguments are known. Your conclusions are suspect, and your mother dresses you funny. By the way welcome to the list. Bronek Kozicki wrote: Quoting David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 1/2/07, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got some samples I took in store with a Canon 5D and EF 17-40mm f4 L lens. At 17mm 40mm there is vignetting, but it's easily treatable in the RAW converter. I think this says more about the lens than the camera IMO. it tells about the whole system - light leaving lens is hitting sensor under steep angle, and microlenses are only able to focus part of this light on the silicon. This lens might be perfect on film, but sensor is sensitive to qualities that film won't notice. B. -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
P. J. Alling wrote: Your arguments are known. Your conclusions are suspect, and your mother dresses you funny. she does not ;-P and I'm not going to argue with you other points, as they might be true indeed. The fact is I'm just losing patience seeing discussion that could end up like whinning when Pentax will finally release full frame camera?!. There is no full frame to start with, it's just 135 format called by a different name invented by Canon marketing. And we, Pentax users, have some excellent digital lenses to enjoy that no other system has, now move on. By the way welcome to the list. thank you B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Bronek Kozicki wrote: Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. Leica M8 is croppped, although not APS. B. Close to APS-H actually. About as close to that as DX format is to APS-C. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
That's not true, the Kodak chip is the same ratio as APS-C ~ 35mm ~ 6x9cm (2:3). APS-H (16:9) isn't even close. Geeze these numbers are published everywhere. Adam Maas wrote: Bronek Kozicki wrote: Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. Leica M8 is croppped, although not APS. B. Close to APS-H actually. About as close to that as DX format is to APS-C. -Adam -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, K.Takeshita [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What they call blind test is rampant. They exhibit images taken by various cameras including 5D (usually more than 5 images taken by different cameras) and see if anyone can tell the difference. This of course is more for an entertainment and no formal testing etc, and testing bases are not uniform, let alone they are all web images. For 5 or so games, no one so far could tell which was 5D images. This of course does not say anything about the performance of 5D (FF enthusiasts, don't get too excited about it. It's just a game :-). But it does tell some truth about the level of difference between APS-C and FF at the current state of the art in everyday shooting. And I'd bet that plenty of people couldn't tell the difference between a 7MP shot from a PS at ISO1600 vs a well processed RAW shot from a 5D at low ISO and others would claim to be able to differentiate between lower ISO settings on a 5D. It's just like the audio enthusiasts lists. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Yes, but the size is similar. -Adam P. J. Alling wrote: That's not true, the Kodak chip is the same ratio as APS-C ~ 35mm ~ 6x9cm (2:3). APS-H (16:9) isn't even close. Geeze these numbers are published everywhere. Adam Maas wrote: Bronek Kozicki wrote: Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. Leica M8 is croppped, although not APS. B. Close to APS-H actually. About as close to that as DX format is to APS-C. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: she does not ;-P and I'm not going to argue with you other points, as they might be true indeed. The fact is I'm just losing patience seeing discussion that could end up like whinning when Pentax will finally release full frame camera?!. There is no full frame to start with, it's just 135 format called by a different name invented by Canon marketing. And we, Pentax users, have some excellent digital lenses to enjoy that no other system has, now move on. You best let Pentax know as they still make DA lenses which are compatible with FF cameras and they quote their DSLRs as having a crop factor relative to FF 35mm ;-) -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Width maybe, but height is, (well at the sizes we're considering), much greater in the Kodak chip than in APS-H format. Adam Maas wrote: Yes, but the size is similar. -Adam P. J. Alling wrote: That's not true, the Kodak chip is the same ratio as APS-C ~ 35mm ~ 6x9cm (2:3). APS-H (16:9) isn't even close. Geeze these numbers are published everywhere. Adam Maas wrote: Bronek Kozicki wrote: Quoting Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: B obviously hasn't looked at too many big Canon or Leica M8 produced images. Leica M8 is croppped, although not APS. B. Close to APS-H actually. About as close to that as DX format is to APS-C. -Adam -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Digital Image Studio wrote: factor relative to FF 35mm ;-) keyword underscored. B. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Digital Image Studio wrote: factor relative to FF 35mm ;-) keyword underscored. ...and? -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
Peter Fairweather wrote: Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter also nowhere else can you see pictures of his new baby... Birth of Ryan: 23 incredible shots in 51 seconds, only with my D200 and 18-200mm VR. shudder -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
I don't have to be cruel to or about Ken Rockwell, he has himself for that. Peter Fairweather wrote: Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Fairweather Sent: 02 January 2007 22:04 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Peter I've always thought of him as a kind of super-charged version of Ace Smoke me a kipper, I'll be home for breakfast! Rimmer, with bigger balls and a better tan. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 03/01/07, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've always thought of him as a kind of super-charged version of Ace Smoke me a kipper, I'll be home for breakfast! Rimmer, with bigger balls and a better tan. That's ridiculously complimentary... for Ken ;-) -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Fw: Full frame vs APS-C was: Re: PESO - Hertzlia Marina vs K10D
On 1/2/07, Peter Fairweather [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Instead of being cruel about Ken Rockwell, try reading his work. Nowhere also has the basic spec of the new Canon 7d. Not only can he review cameras he hasn't used, he can even do this for cameras which don't yet exist. 24 meg sensor, 3.1 frames per second continuous he informs us. What a guy!! Oh, sure! Take his side. -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com Shoot more film! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
