Jim Devine writes: But decentralized democracy (worker co-ops, community co-ops, etc.) have been central to alternatives to social-democratic and Marxist-Leninist statism. Comment: Social democratic governments surely are strongly in favor of co-ops. Indeed, provinces such as Manitoba and Saskatchewan when they have had CCF or NDP governments (both social-democratic) have had a dept. of co-operative development and often a minister of co-op development. I do not know what you mean by community co-ops. Are these sixties-type volunteer service co-ops or what? In provinces such as Saskatchewan if you go into any small or medium-sized town the co-op will be the grocery store and usually the bulk petroleum dealer and often the service station as well. The financial institution will be a credit union. The elevator will often be a Co-op or Pool elevator. All wheat is collectively marketed by the Canadian Wheat Board as are some other grains. Social democratic govts. have pushed these developments because that is what their constituency has wanted. THere are also huge producer co-ops, including a giant Dairy producers co-op that is now interprovincial. THere is another huge one in Quebec. These are large organisations run bureaucratically just like their private competitors. The consumer co-ops have their own oil refinery. There are few worker co-ops however, but you can buy brew from a worker-owned brewery thank goodness! None of these developments evolved into anything like socialism. Social democratic governments are not socialist at all. While in the early stages of their development social democratic movements such as the CCF (Co-operative Commonwealth Federation ) had a manifesto (the Regina Manifesto) that explicitly has as its goal the abolition of capitalism and its replacement by the Co-operative Commonwealth, the programme was continually watered down both in theory and in practice so that a mixed economy private and public was accepted. The co-operative movement tended to become less radical and just part of the prairie status quo. Labor relations in co-ops are sometimes poor. Members of the co-op get higher patronage refunds if there are lower costs. Many of the members are farmers and many are not all that sympathetic to labor. Credit Unions are certainly better than banks in that surplus is distributed to members on the basis of usage rather than number of shares owned and as with co-ops, one member has only one vote. Co-ops and credit unions and marketing boards, etc. operate in the interest of their members and within a market structure that limits their freedom. They must watch the bottom line just as much as a private bank or store. Often too, members are passive unless there is a crisis. They do not want to be democractically participating they want to get on with their farm work etc. and let managers run the businesses. While co-ops etc. have a role in a socialist society I think that the left's downplaying of the role of public ownership is a huge mistake. Publicly owned companies can operate at a loss and serve social ends that no co-op or private company could possibly do in the marketplace. Alternatively, they may produce a surplus that can be used for social expenditure. Finally, if they operate on a break-even basis, ceteris paribus, will provide services cheaper cheaper than a private firm--since private firms (on the whole) must generate profits. I agree that there must be great public and worker input into the operation of publicly owned corporations. Control by communist planners without any checks and balances was the real problem with public ownership in the USSR and elsewhere. Another difficulty with co-ops is that the interests of co-ops in poorer areas e.g. with agriculture co-ops and those that happen to be located in rich areas may conflict. Unless you have some strong state redistribution how does co-operative ownership solve that sort of problem? I don't see how formal democratic structures lead to socialism although they may be a necessary condition of any acceptable form of socialism. Formal democracy has not led to public control of government, and when elements of formal democratic control are introduced through co-ops etc. it is often not the membership but management that exerts control. As long as the co-op grocery store gives good service, choice, and reasonable prices with a decent patronage refund members are content to let a small group of volunteers serve on the board. Often it may be a problem to find a new board member when one dies or steps down. CHeers, Ken Hanly