Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: It's a Jungle In Here
At 08:30 PM 4/25/01 -0700, you wrote: Einstein used to use royalty checks as bookmarks. He was not poor by any means. I understand that he was able to avoid poverty because others helped him deal with complications of everyday life that most of can deal with but he couldn't. This is a symptom that he had a dose of autism, though he was never diagnosed. BTW, Bill Gates is clearer: there was a story in TIME awhile back that described his social skills: he'd go to his office fridge to get a soda for himself, not even thinking of offering one to his guest. Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
RE: It's a Jungle In Here
This explains Microsoft documentation and 'help' files. I do hope though that Bill has the foresight to make provision in his will to follow in the footsteps of Jeremy Bentham. Alt-Ctrl-Del . . . Jim Devine wrote, BTW, Bill Gates is clearer: there was a story in TIME awhile back that described his social skills: he'd go to his office fridge to get a soda for himself, not even thinking of offering one to his guest. Tom Walker Bowen Island, BC 604 947 2213
Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: It's a Jungle In Here
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Our society tends to rank everyone along a single scale, things like IQ, but ultimately how much money one makes as income. (The use of IQ is justified by pointing to how well it allegedly predicts income.) But that kind of thing would doom people like my son, since he sure doesn't look like an economic winner. If we're lucky and learn how to work around his disabilities and encourage his abilities, he might turn out like Einstein (in Star Wars terminology, going with the force) or Bill Gates (the dark side of the force). The former wasn't very good at generating income for himself and would thus be judged a failure by our society. When looking at employment and disability one also has to factor in the discrimination that disabled people face attempting to get into the workforce. I don't just mean prejudice, but economic discrimination on the part of employers who whether real or percieved calculate that a disabled employee is going to take away from their bottom line. Much of my writing deals with economic discrimination and the social organization of work. Disabled people have been shoved out of the production process in order for the small capitalist class to create the conditions necessary to accummulate vast wealth. That way employers don't have to provide interpreters, wheelchair access, readers, personal assistants on the job, maximum health care coverage, etc when they can segregate disabled people from regular work. So we have sheltered workshops and nonprofits who do employ disabled persons often at subminimum wages. Many of these workers know that they are paid less not because they are less productive but because of the nature of segregated employment. It is far too involved to get into all these issues in detail here but I'm sure that some of you will get my drift. Marta
Re: It's a Jungle In Here
Too many people aren't working and I don't think the focus should be held to work. That is their line. Productionism/productivism is not my Utopia. Marta Charles Brown wrote: Even Bush forecasts economic downturn. Why not reknit the safety net ? War No. 2 on Poverty ? Lyndon Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/19/01 10:18PM Right now it's hopeless. I prefer Make work pay! Work-conditioned benefits, and gigunda refundable tax credits. max Make what do you think of the slogan: Bring back welfare ! ( It's a jungle out there for some ) Charles [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/19/01 11:23AM I have resubbed to this list, but with great tr -- Marta Russell author, Los Angeles, CA http://disweb.org/ Beyond Ramps: Disability at the End of the Social Contract http://www.commoncouragepress.com/russell_ramps.html
RE: It's a Jungle In Here
The public is willing, or at least more willing, to fight poverty with jobs that pay a living wage (or wages plus benefits), than it is with transfer payments according to income. A more immediate problem is that people think the war on poverty has been won due to welfare reform. max Even Bush forecasts economic downturn. Why not reknit the safety net ? War No. 2 on Poverty ? Lyndon Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/19/01 10:18PM Right now it's hopeless. I prefer Make work pay! Work-conditioned benefits, and gigunda refundable tax credits. max Make what do you think of the slogan: Bring back welfare ! ( It's a jungle out there for some ) Charles [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/19/01 11:23AM I have resubbed to this list, but with great tr
RE: Re: It's a Jungle In Here
Mine neither. But there is zero political support these days for aid to those deemed capable of work, outside of employment. max Too many people aren't working and I don't think the focus should be held to work. That is their line. Productionism/productivism is not my Utopia. Marta
Re: RE: It's a Jungle In Here
Max wrote: A more immediate problem is that people think the war on poverty has been won due to welfare reform. so what's going to happen with welfare reform if there's a recession? the whole program seems predicated on perpetual prosperity. Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
RE: Re: RE: It's a Jungle In Here
Max wrote: A more immediate problem is that people think the war on poverty has been won due to welfare reform. so what's going to happen with welfare reform if there's a recession? the whole program seems predicated on perpetual prosperity. Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine Probably a godawful mess. My book goes into it, albeit from an ultra-sober academic posture. mbs
Re: RE: It's a Jungle In Here
The issue of disability poverty is rarely raised in these discussions on poverty and employment. Over 70% of disabled persons say they would like to have a job, yet our unemployment rate is astronomical - about two thirds of working age disabled persons age 16 to 64 are without employment. this would be about 8 million people. The ADA has not changed the unemployment rate. About 30% of disabled persons live in poverty compared to about 10% of the nondisabled population. For anyone who is interested, I would be more than happy to send a copy of my UCBerkeley Journal of Employment and Labor Law paper on the subject (send your address off list). I am about the only person writing from a political economy perspective -- most of the academics who write on disability won't touch capitalism with a ten foot pole, and hence we continue to get nowhere (except taken to postmodernism land). Marta Max Sawicky wrote: A more immediate problem is that people think the war on poverty has been won due to welfare reform.
Re: Re: RE: It's a Jungle In Here
Marta's note about disability and poverty makes me think about David's question about the economy. Tim's Chico Examiner just published a wonderful article about a young man died. He was a physical disaster. Doctors recommended that his parents just let him die, time and time again. Yet he lived -- not long enough -- and he made quite contribution here in town. Economically, it did cost a lot to give him the care to keep alive, but he made a wonderful contribution to the town. I didn't know him well -- just enough to chat with him from time to time when he wheeled by, but he was always friendly and cheerful. Marx's point was that you cannot measure such things by cost benefit analysis. I also spoke today to a brother of someone on the list. He is homeless here in Chico. I wonder how many people we let slip through the cracks, without taking advantage of what they have to offer. At the same time, privileged jerks like W. and the gang rise to the top and exercise power. Marta Russell wrote: The issue of disability poverty is rarely raised in these discussions on poverty and employment. Over 70% of disabled persons say they would like to have a job, yet our unemployment rate is astronomical - about two thirds of working age disabled persons age 16 to 64 are without employment. this would be about 8 million people. The ADA has not changed the unemployment rate. About 30% of disabled persons live in poverty compared to about 10% of the nondisabled population. For anyone who is interested, I would be more than happy to send a copy of my UCBerkeley Journal of Employment and Labor Law paper on the subject (send your address off list). I am about the only person writing from a political economy perspective -- most of the academics who write on disability won't touch capitalism with a ten foot pole, and hence we continue to get nowhere (except taken to postmodernism land). Marta Max Sawicky wrote: A more immediate problem is that people think the war on poverty has been won due to welfare reform. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: RE: It's a Jungle In Here
After 2002, when the five year limit expires, it could easily--with a recession-- be 1932 again. There will be a surge in the homeless population, and some of the strictures on welfare will be loosened when the rest of the population trips ever more often over homeless people. For the moment, even though I disagree with its thrust, Max is probably right that all we can do is strive to improve the terms (wages, benefits, tax expenditures) under which poor people work. Joel Blau Jim Devine wrote: Max wrote: A more immediate problem is that people think the war on poverty has been won due to welfare reform. so what's going to happen with welfare reform if there's a recession? the whole program seems predicated on perpetual prosperity. Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
Re: Re: Re: RE: It's a Jungle In Here
Those people who provided services for him had a job because of his need and hopefully were well paid -- so though I dislike commodifying disability which home care corporations and other disability based business' do, there is a need that gets met by both a worker and the disabled person. We have been struggling to make personal assistance services jobs good pay with benefits but the counties (and state) has fought hard against raising the salaries to any where near a living wage. I just found out that a friend of mine died this week. She was a powerhouse during her lifetime. She had muscular dystrophy, used a ventilator for most of her adult life and though some might look at her and describe her as a physical disaster, she was proud to be disabled and she accomplished much more than many nondisabled persons in her lifetime. She managed to see hate crimes against disabled persons get worked through the legislature, wrote many articles on disability oppression, initiated the entire access for disabled women in Planned Parenthood Clinics, to name but a few things. So quality of life is not what it often appears to physically be. Marta michael perelman wrote: Marta's note about disability and poverty makes me think about David's question about the economy. Tim's Chico Examiner just published a wonderful article about a young man died. He was a physical disaster. Doctors recommended that his parents just let him die, time and time again. Yet he lived -- not long enough -- and he made quite contribution here in town. Economically, it did cost a lot to give him the care to keep alive, but he made a wonderful contribution to the town. I didn't know him well -- just enough to chat with him from time to time when he wheeled by, but he was always friendly and cheerful. Marx's point was that you cannot measure such things by cost benefit analysis. I also spoke today to a brother of someone on the list. He is homeless here in Chico. I wonder how many people we let slip through the cracks, without taking advantage of what they have to offer. At the same time, privileged jerks like W. and the gang rise to the top and exercise power. Marta Russell wrote: The issue of disability poverty is rarely raised in these discussions on poverty and employment. Over 70% of disabled persons say they would like to have a job, yet our unemployment rate is astronomical - about two thirds of working age disabled persons age 16 to 64 are without employment. this would be about 8 million people. The ADA has not changed the unemployment rate. About 30% of disabled persons live in poverty compared to about 10% of the nondisabled population. For anyone who is interested, I would be more than happy to send a copy of my UCBerkeley Journal of Employment and Labor Law paper on the subject (send your address off list). I am about the only person writing from a political economy perspective -- most of the academics who write on disability won't touch capitalism with a ten foot pole, and hence we continue to get nowhere (except taken to postmodernism land). Marta Max Sawicky wrote: A more immediate problem is that people think the war on poverty has been won due to welfare reform. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Marta Russell author, Los Angeles, CA http://disweb.org/ Beyond Ramps: Disability at the End of the Social Contract http://www.commoncouragepress.com/russell_ramps.html
Re: Re: Re: RE: It's a Jungle In Here
Michael Perelman writes: Marta's note about disability and poverty makes me think about David's question about the economy. Tim's Chico Examiner just published a wonderful article about a young man [who] died. He was a physical disaster. Doctors recommended that his parents just let him die, time and time again. Yet he lived -- not long enough -- and he made quite contribution here in town. Economically, it did cost a lot to give him the care to keep alive, but he made a wonderful contribution to the town. I didn't know him well -- just enough to chat with him from time to time when he wheeled by, but he was always friendly and cheerful. Marx's point was that you cannot measure such things by cost benefit analysis. My son's mild autism (Asperger's syndrome) has convinced me of the validity of Gardner's multiple intelligences. Though he (my son) is disabled in terms of social skills and handling emotions, he is highly abled in terms of creativity and abstract intelligence. His more detailed psych tests are like a comb, really high in some dimensions, very low in others. In the somewhat sickly sweet cliche of those who deal with special children, he's not disabled but differently abled. Our society tends to rank everyone along a single scale, things like IQ, but ultimately how much money one makes as income. (The use of IQ is justified by pointing to how well it allegedly predicts income.) But that kind of thing would doom people like my son, since he sure doesn't look like an economic winner. If we're lucky and learn how to work around his disabilities and encourage his abilities, he might turn out like Einstein (in Star Wars terminology, going with the force) or Bill Gates (the dark side of the force). The former wasn't very good at generating income for himself and would thus be judged a failure by our society. -- Jim Devine - This message was sent using Panda Mail. Check your regular email account away from home free! http://www.pandamail.net
Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: It's a Jungle In Here
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 8:26 PM Subject: [PEN-L:10810] Re: Re: Re: RE: It's a Jungle In Here Michael Perelman writes: Marta's note about disability and poverty makes me think about David's question about the economy. Tim's Chico Examiner just published a wonderful article about a young man [who] died. He was a physical disaster. Doctors recommended that his parents just let him die, time and time again. Yet he lived -- not long enough -- and he made quite contribution here in town. Economically, it did cost a lot to give him the care to keep alive, but he made a wonderful contribution to the town. I didn't know him well -- just enough to chat with him from time to time when he wheeled by, but he was always friendly and cheerful. Marx's point was that you cannot measure such things by cost benefit analysis. My son's mild autism (Asperger's syndrome) has convinced me of the validity of Gardner's multiple intelligences. Though he (my son) is disabled in terms of social skills and handling emotions, he is highly abled in terms of creativity and abstract intelligence. His more detailed psych tests are like a comb, really high in some dimensions, very low in others. In the somewhat sickly sweet cliche of those who deal with special children, he's not disabled but differently abled. Our society tends to rank everyone along a single scale, things like IQ, but ultimately how much money one makes as income. (The use of IQ is justified by pointing to how well it allegedly predicts income.) But that kind of thing would doom people like my son, since he sure doesn't look like an economic winner. If we're lucky and learn how to work around his disabilities and encourage his abilities, he might turn out like Einstein (in Star Wars terminology, going with the force) or Bill Gates (the dark side of the force). The former wasn't very good at generating income for himself and would thus be judged a failure by our society. -- Jim Devine * Einstein used to use royalty checks as bookmarks. He was not poor by any means. Ian
Re: It's a Jungle In Here
Make what do you think of the slogan: Bring back welfare ! ( It's a jungle out there for some ) Charles [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/19/01 11:23AM I have resubbed to this list, but with great tr
RE: Re: It's a Jungle In Here
Right now it's hopeless. I prefer "Make work pay!" Work-conditioned benefits, and gigunda refundable tax credits. max Make what do you think of the slogan: Bring back welfare ! ( It's a jungle out there for some ) Charles [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/19/01 11:23AM I have resubbed to this list, but with great tr
