Re: Re: Re: Where is Herbert Spencer when we need him?
At 23/09/2002 05:55, Melvin wrote: Classless concepts will not help the new communist class. Nor will wholesale condemnation of the American peoples strengthened the antiwar bourgeois democratic current alive and well in America. You are right and my short way of putting it was wrong. There are many Americans from all classes who are opposed to US militarism; unfortunately, like the many German workers who opposed Hitler, they may still end up paying the collective price which America will one day pay for its national crimes. Mark
Where is Herbert Spencer when we need him?
In the 33-page document, Mr. Bush also seeks to answer the critics of growing American muscle-flexing by insisting that the United States will exploit its military and economic power to encourage 'free and open societies,' rather than seek 'unilateral advantage.' It calls this union of values and national interests 'a distinctly American internationalism.' Herbert Spencer, in the postscript to The Man Versus The State: While among ourselves the administration of colonial affairs is such that native tribes who retaliate on Englishmen by whom they have been injured, are punished, not on their own savage principle of life for life, but on the improved civilized principle of wholesale massacre in return for single murder, there is little chance that a political doctrine consistent only with unaggressive conduct will gain currency. Spencer's argument in Man Versus the State revolved around a contrast between two kinds of society the militant, based on command and hierarchy and the industrial, based on voluntary cooperation. A militaristic foreign policy would inevitably undermine the voluntary cooperation and laissez faire. In 1902, Spencer wrote an article titled Imperialism and Slavery. The title is self-explanatory. I expect we'll soon see all conscientious libertarians and consistent social Darwinists rise up in revulsion against this Bush doctrine. Tom Walker 604 255 4812
Re: Where is Herbert Spencer when we need him?
At 22/09/2002 14:53, you wrote:
I expect we'll soon see all conscientious libertarians and consistent social
Darwinists rise up in revulsion against this Bush doctrine.
Why so? 100 hundred years after Spencer, angry Americans are more anxious
to bash people of different hue, colour, etc, than ever. Why, there are
people on this very list who came out in support of the Bush tactic of
bombing Afghanistan, and they are not at all apologetic, on the contrary,
they continue to argue for American exceptionalism ('perhaps Marc Cooper
has a point' etc); unfortunately, what is exceptional about Americans is
their mix of murderousness, infantile self pity and devastating lack of
self-insight.
Mark
RE: Where is Herbert Spencer when we need him?
Title: RE: [PEN-L:30447] Where is Herbert Spencer when we need him? Herbert Spencer: ... the improved civilized principle of wholesale massacre in return for single murder... this sounds like Israel's policy vis-a-vis the conquered territories... JD
Re: Where is Herbert Spencer when we need him?
I wrote, I expect we'll soon see all conscientious libertarians and consistent social Darwinists rise up in revulsion against this Bush doctrine. Mark Jones asked, Why so? I was being sarcastic, Mark. Tom Walker 604 255 4812
Re: Re: Where is Herbert Spencer when we need him?
... what is exceptional about Americans is their mix of murderousness, infantile self pity and devastating lack of self-insight. Mark Exactly. Just add America's new hyperpower status to that mix and you have the most toxic combination for world calamity since WWII. Carl _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Re: Re: Re: Where is Herbert Spencer when we need him?
Mark's words are the most succint analysis I have seen. On Sun, Sep 22, 2002 at 04:52:56PM +, Carl Remick wrote: ... what is exceptional about Americans is their mix of murderousness, infantile self pity and devastating lack of self-insight. Mark Exactly. Just add America's new hyperpower status to that mix and you have the most toxic combination for world calamity since WWII. Carl _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is Herbert Spencer when we need him?
For, if once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing, and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination. Once begin upon this downward path, you never know where you are to stop. Many a man dated his ruin from some murder or other that perhaps he thought little of at the time. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Where is Herbert Spencer when we need him?
In a message dated 9/22/02 8:15:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
At 22/09/2002 14:53, you wrote:
I expect we'll soon see all conscientious libertarians and consistent social
Darwinists rise up in revulsion against this Bush doctrine.
Why so? 100 hundred years after Spencer, angry Americans are more anxious
to bash people of different hue, colour, etc, than ever. Why, there are
people on this very list who came out in support of the Bush tactic of
bombing Afghanistan, and they are not at all apologetic, on the contrary,
they continue to argue for American exceptionalism ('perhaps Marc Cooper
has a point' etc); unfortunately, what is exceptional about Americans is
their mix of murderousness, infantile self pity and devastating lack of
self-insight.
Mark
Comment
America's evolution is exceptional or rather peculiar, as it did not evolve on the basis of the transition from feudalism to capitalism. Rather, trading companies colonized America and agricultural production was driven on the basis of capitalist commodity exchange. America is a big country. Germany can almost fit inside Texas. America experiences change in its economic circumstances in waves affecting various states and regions in a non-uniform way.
Throughout our history large section of the population has been able to materially improve their lot in life on a generation basis, given Americas unique role as what others call a "hegemonic" force and its more than less pure capitalist development.
I of course do not deny Americas self appointed role as the world Policeman and thug. The multi national state of the United States of North America remains the enemy of the peoples of the world and the international hangman of revolution.
America of course has never experienced the devastation of war as has continental Europe. This has allowed for a more than less peaceful and smooth development of its productive forces. The notable exception was the Civil War, which ruined the core Southern states that housed the slave oligarchy.
The only class struggle that America has really known and understood has been that within capital. Even during the era of the building of industrial unions this was not the class struggle, but rather the struggle between a sector of labor and it being accommodated by a sector of capital.
Then of course the evolution of American financial and industrial capital was unique and different from developments in Europe.
I have tended to avoid the discussion of the Bush administration current drive to war against Iraq. This has a lot to do with the historic antiwar current in America and this current is very deep within the peoples of America.
I believe that it is a mistake to state that,
"what is exceptional about Americans is
their mix of murderousness, infantile self pity and devastating lack of
self-insight."
It is true that many so-called progressives and even so-called Marxist has come out in support of the war against terrorism and the bombing of Afghanistan. I have in mind Carl Davidson, one of the New Jack or rather architects of the Young Communist Movement.
Millions of people in our country are opposed to the drive to war and battling this question out daily on the Internet and in public and private gathering. We are faced with a qualitatively new development in the technology of war, which is allowing the capitalist rulers to proceed without a popular base of support. This is not to save that there is not support of the ruling class in large sections of the working class.
I respect your outrage against our ruling class. However, there are two Americas and the other American is opposed to imperial exploitation and imperial war. The Vietnamese revolutionaries always separated the policies of our imperial masters from the aspirations of the working class in America. This made it easier for the revolutionaries to fight to isolate the ruling class and the bootlicking lackeys of imperial plunder, exploitation and war.
I should point out that it is conceivable that a break in the chain of imperial exploitation is possible in an imperial center that travels a fault line out into what many call the peripheral. This is extremely probable in the near future given the transitions in the configuration of capital and the new social forces being generated on the basis of changes in the mode of production.
A break in the chain of imperial exploitation can in fact take place in the hub that holds the chain together. This means a fundamental breach in the hub that allows the collapse of the chain.
Things are more serious in America than the American peoples are allowed to glimpse by the bourgeoisie. Just last week more than $420 billion in stock market value was lost and this is going to affect corporations and the people who sell their labor to these corporations in the immediate future.
What is taking place in America is a fundamental realignment that has rendered the old
