Re: Web.pm (Re: Cobra Ioke Programming Languages)
Carl, Look into Wt: http://www.webtoolkit.eu/wt#/features Aside from Catalyst, Symfony and RoR look pretty good too. Let me know how I can help with web.pm I'll have to dust off the C/C++ cobwebs and get my hands dirty though since, I've been mostly concentrating in web development with Perl/PHP (Catalyst/Symfony) and currently eyeing Ruby (though the lack of C like syntax putting me off). Regards, Juan On Sep 18, 2009, at 6:00 AM, Carl Mäsak wrote: Juan (): I'll take a look at web.pm and see I can get involved. You're very welcome to help. We definitely need more contributors, and I'm currently thinking about ways to delegate work. Grab me on #perl6, or by email. There's also sporadic discussion of Web.pm going on at #november-wiki. Would be interesting to see if Catalyst is being ported over as well. We're aiming for something very much like Catalyst. I'm reading up on Catalyst; I bought the book and all. Regularly talking to mst on #catalyst, who is supportive of a port and has some information about which traps not to fall into. I'm also casting my net wide and looking at a dozen other similar frameworks in different languages. Partly to give me the required background, and partly to make sure we actually steal as many good ideas as possible, just as Perl 6 itself does. I see Perl 6 really taking off if the tools for server side scripting/web development get revamped to take on PHP's and Ruby's in terms of ease of use and deployment. I salute you, sir. We're on the same page. The level of simplicity we're aiming for is ridiculously simple, also known as I pushed the button, and it just worked!. Perl 5/mod_perl2 aren't that easy to administer from a shared hosting perspective and takes some work to get going properly, find the right modules etc... Perhaps there should be a version of Perl tailored for the web with built in features or maybe an include/explicit option to load a specific set of language features. There's been talk about that. If we're really diligent, we might have such a distribution ready for April, shipped with cool use cases and all. // Carl
Web.pm (Re: Cobra Ioke Programming Languages)
Juan (): I'll take a look at web.pm and see I can get involved. You're very welcome to help. We definitely need more contributors, and I'm currently thinking about ways to delegate work. Grab me on #perl6, or by email. There's also sporadic discussion of Web.pm going on at #november-wiki. Would be interesting to see if Catalyst is being ported over as well. We're aiming for something very much like Catalyst. I'm reading up on Catalyst; I bought the book and all. Regularly talking to mst on #catalyst, who is supportive of a port and has some information about which traps not to fall into. I'm also casting my net wide and looking at a dozen other similar frameworks in different languages. Partly to give me the required background, and partly to make sure we actually steal as many good ideas as possible, just as Perl 6 itself does. I see Perl 6 really taking off if the tools for server side scripting/web development get revamped to take on PHP's and Ruby's in terms of ease of use and deployment. I salute you, sir. We're on the same page. The level of simplicity we're aiming for is ridiculously simple, also known as I pushed the button, and it just worked!. Perl 5/mod_perl2 aren't that easy to administer from a shared hosting perspective and takes some work to get going properly, find the right modules etc... Perhaps there should be a version of Perl tailored for the web with built in features or maybe an include/explicit option to load a specific set of language features. There's been talk about that. If we're really diligent, we might have such a distribution ready for April, shipped with cool use cases and all. // Carl
Re: Cobra Ioke Programming Languages
On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:41 AM, yary not@gmail.com wrote: Perl is being actively developed for the Parrot VM. LLVM is another interesting option and if someone or some group would like to take it on, it would be a welcome alternate implementation. What parts in particular of Cobra and ioke look useful to you? Looking at Cobra's intro slide- * Cobra is a new language (sub 1.0) Not sure if Perl6 qualifies as a new language. It's built off of an old language, and is backwards compatible with it. And, perl5 is adopting pieces of perl6. On the other hand there's enough in Perl6 that's new it's easy to make the case that it is a new case. Yes, Perl 6 does - it is not backwards compatible with Perl 5. It's based very heavily on it, but I think it does qualify as 'new' to most purposes. New, but at least partially familiar. I don't see anything in either language's summary that Perl 6 can't already do or which couldn't be implemented with it. One thing you have to keep in mind is that when we have the full-blown macro and introspection systems available in a Perl 6 implementation, a great deal of power to add new language features is then in our hands. At that point we could quite probably manage syntax-level support for unit tests, etc. - although I've never been entirely convinced about the absolute necessity of such things. We do have pre- and post-conditions, in PRE and POST blocks - see Synopsis 4 under 'closure traits'. Signature-level where blocks help with DBC-style programming as well. Okay so we don't run on JVM or .NET right now, but there are people who've come to #perl6 and expressed an interest in doing it. Not an easy project, but maybe some amazing people will do it one day.
Re: Cobra Ioke Programming Languages
Also any thoughts on implementing Perl 6 on LLVM? Well, the planning is already under way... Parrot want to eventually use LLVM as one of the possible backend: http://wknight8111.blogspot.com/2009/09/first-steps-on-jit-overhaul.html At the moment, it is targeted for the 2.6 release: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/report/14 Bye, Raphael.
Re: Cobra Ioke Programming Languages
Matthew Walton wrote Yes, Perl 6 does - it is not backwards compatible with Perl 5. That so? I thought Perl6 was supposed to recognize and execute perl5 code. That statement itself implies that perl6 and perl5 are different languages, and I'm not too interested in arguing over semantics. I am curious about P6 executing P5 modules/libraries- that was in the original plans and I think it's still included in the specs- though not sure. On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 6:06 AM, Juan Madrigal jua...@mac.com wrote: In addition to what you mentioned I would like to be able to specifying whether the language is strictly typed or dynamically type in Perl6 (not sure if that's possible now). Would be nice to mix both in with a keyword. In Perl6 a variable can be untyped, typed at compile time (statically typed), or typed at run time (dynamically typed). In fact you can also specify the implementation of the variable independently of its type, similar to perl5's tie interface. For a nice long list of P6 buzzwords (though perhaps a bit outdated) look at http://dev.perl.org/perl6/faq.html Hopefully Catalyst will be re-written for Perl6. I think that's a ways away. Right now there is a built-from-scratch wiki in perl6, November, that is pushing perl6's web code-base. P6 will either get Catalyst, or something better. Web development with Perl needs to be easier PHP and Ruby make it easy. I would prefer to just use Perl without having to hunt down CPAN modules for features that are built in to other languages. Mail, Sessions/Authentication, Database Connectivity etc... are native. Maybe the best modules should be included or a standard set developed for the web including Catalyst? EmbPerl is another option. Some people are already writing web apps in Perl6 and discussing their experience, all getting incorporated into the discussion and P6 language / library design. If you have the time to install Rakudo, and join the November effort, then you'll have a direct influence on the future of web development in Perl as well! -y
Re: Cobra Ioke Programming Languages
On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 6:58 PM, yary not@gmail.com wrote: Matthew Walton wrote Yes, Perl 6 does - it is not backwards compatible with Perl 5. That so? I thought Perl6 was supposed to recognize and execute perl5 code. That statement itself implies that perl6 and perl5 are different languages, and I'm not too interested in arguing over semantics. I am curious about P6 executing P5 modules/libraries- that was in the original plans and I think it's still included in the specs- though not sure. That's not Perl 6, so much as there being plans for a Perl 6 implementation to also be able to load Perl 5 libraries and code. Rakudo (and all other Parrot languages) is currently gaining this ability through the Blizkost project, which embeds the Perl 5 interpreter to do the heavy work. A system which understands Perl 6 the language is not going to be happy with most Perl 5 programmes you might choose to feed it - it would have to detect that and feed it to a Perl 5 interpreter instead. There will be such systems, but I tend to think of them as multilingual. On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 6:06 AM, Juan Madrigal jua...@mac.com wrote: Hopefully Catalyst will be re-written for Perl6. I think that's a ways away. Right now there is a built-from-scratch wiki in perl6, November, that is pushing perl6's web code-base. P6 will either get Catalyst, or something better. Web development with Perl needs to be easier PHP and Ruby make it easy. I would prefer to just use Perl without having to hunt down CPAN modules for features that are built in to other languages. Mail, Sessions/Authentication, Database Connectivity etc... are native. Maybe the best modules should be included or a standard set developed for the web including Catalyst? EmbPerl is another option. Some people are already writing web apps in Perl6 and discussing their experience, all getting incorporated into the discussion and P6 language / library design. If you have the time to install Rakudo, and join the November effort, then you'll have a direct influence on the future of web development in Perl as well! You're never going to get web features built into the language itself - they will be modules, because Perl 6 is not a language specifically intended for web development (although it's likely to be rather good at it once the libraries are in place). Ruby doesn't do much web in the core language either - Ruby on Rails is all extra (very clever) libraries, rather like Catalyst, although Catalyst tends to expose a bit more of the plumbing. Carl Mäsak is working on a project called Web.pm which is the core Perl 6 web programming experience. It's an outgrowth of the November wiki project, and if you're interested in web programming I recommend you take a look at it as it may well be the basis of all the fancy web frameworks we might want to build in the future.
Re: Cobra Ioke Programming Languages
I'll take a look at web.pm and see I can get involved. Would be interesting to see if Catalyst is being ported over as well. I see Perl 6 really taking off if the tools for server side scripting/ web development get revamped to take on PHP's and Ruby's in terms of ease of use and deployment. Perl 5/mod_perl2 aren't that easy to administer from a shared hosting perspective and takes some work to get going properly, find the right modules etc... Perhaps there should be a version of Perl tailored for the web with built in features or maybe an include/explicit option to load a specific set of language features. mod_perlite looks interesting as well: http://freshmeat.net/projects/mod_perlite/ -Juan On Sep 17, 2009, at 6:10 PM, Matthew Walton wrote: On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 6:58 PM, yary not@gmail.com wrote: Matthew Walton wrote Yes, Perl 6 does - it is not backwards compatible with Perl 5. That so? I thought Perl6 was supposed to recognize and execute perl5 code. That statement itself implies that perl6 and perl5 are different languages, and I'm not too interested in arguing over semantics. I am curious about P6 executing P5 modules/libraries- that was in the original plans and I think it's still included in the specs- though not sure. That's not Perl 6, so much as there being plans for a Perl 6 implementation to also be able to load Perl 5 libraries and code. Rakudo (and all other Parrot languages) is currently gaining this ability through the Blizkost project, which embeds the Perl 5 interpreter to do the heavy work. A system which understands Perl 6 the language is not going to be happy with most Perl 5 programmes you might choose to feed it - it would have to detect that and feed it to a Perl 5 interpreter instead. There will be such systems, but I tend to think of them as multilingual. On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 6:06 AM, Juan Madrigal jua...@mac.com wrote: Hopefully Catalyst will be re-written for Perl6. I think that's a ways away. Right now there is a built-from-scratch wiki in perl6, November, that is pushing perl6's web code-base. P6 will either get Catalyst, or something better. Web development with Perl needs to be easier PHP and Ruby make it easy. I would prefer to just use Perl without having to hunt down CPAN modules for features that are built in to other languages. Mail, Sessions/Authentication, Database Connectivity etc... are native. Maybe the best modules should be included or a standard set developed for the web including Catalyst? EmbPerl is another option. Some people are already writing web apps in Perl6 and discussing their experience, all getting incorporated into the discussion and P6 language / library design. If you have the time to install Rakudo, and join the November effort, then you'll have a direct influence on the future of web development in Perl as well! You're never going to get web features built into the language itself - they will be modules, because Perl 6 is not a language specifically intended for web development (although it's likely to be rather good at it once the libraries are in place). Ruby doesn't do much web in the core language either - Ruby on Rails is all extra (very clever) libraries, rather like Catalyst, although Catalyst tends to expose a bit more of the plumbing. Carl Mäsak is working on a project called Web.pm which is the core Perl 6 web programming experience. It's an outgrowth of the November wiki project, and if you're interested in web programming I recommend you take a look at it as it may well be the basis of all the fancy web frameworks we might want to build in the future.
Cobra Ioke Programming Languages
Just wanted to get some thoughts on the following languages and if any features from them can be implemented in Perl6: Cobra http://cobra-language.com/docs/papers-etc/Cobra-Socal-Piggies-2008-02-Slides.pdf http://cobra-language.com/docs/why/ Ioke http://ioke.org/wiki/index.php/Guide Also any thoughts on implementing Perl 6 on LLVM? Thanks! Juan
Re: Cobra Ioke Programming Languages
Perl is being actively developed for the Parrot VM. LLVM is another interesting option and if someone or some group would like to take it on, it would be a welcome alternate implementation. What parts in particular of Cobra and ioke look useful to you? Looking at Cobra's intro slide- * Cobra is a new language (sub 1.0) Not sure if Perl6 qualifies as a new language. It's built off of an old language, and is backwards compatible with it. And, perl5 is adopting pieces of perl6. On the other hand there's enough in Perl6 that's new it's easy to make the case that it is a new case. Though newness is not something useful to coders! * Object-oriented, imperative This can be implemented in Perl6 *Embraces unit tests, contracts and more This can be implemented in Perl6 *General purpose This can be implemented in Perl6 *Runs on .NET Mono Not in current implementations on Perl6 *Windows, Mac, Linux, Solaris, etc. Rakudo (Perl6 on Parrot) runs on all those platforms. I'm being flippant there- I think if you can ask a more specific question you'll get a better answer. Cobra looks interesting as does Ioke. Cobra is in late-beta and Perl6 is still alpha... Ioke looks cleaner and simpler and with the quick look through the link you posted, I didn't see anything jump out as hard to do in Perl6- other than run on the JVM. -y On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Juan Madrigal jua...@mac.com wrote: Just wanted to get some thoughts on the following languages and if any features from them can be implemented in Perl6: Cobra http://cobra-language.com/docs/papers-etc/Cobra-Socal-Piggies-2008-02-Slides.pdf http://cobra-language.com/docs/why/ Ioke http://ioke.org/wiki/index.php/Guide Also any thoughts on implementing Perl 6 on LLVM? Thanks! Juan
Re: Cobra Ioke Programming Languages
This is an interesting subpage under Cobra- http://cobra-language.com/docs/quality/ it actually bears a little on recent discussions about self-documenting code. I'm a Perl6 beginner so I'm making comments with expectation that others will correct where I'm wrong * Doc Strings Perl6's vision of doc strings are more powerful than what are in Cobra * Unit Tests Cobra's language-level test constructs looks cleaner then Perl's culture-level tests. * Contracts Hmmm, those look like a cross between assertions and unit tests... not sure how they fit in Perl6 * Compile-time Nil Tracking Sounds like strong-typing to me, which one can easily request in Perl6 * Assertions Pretty sure Perl6 has'em
