Re: Perl 6 Advocacy Suggestion

[Andrew Kirkpatrick]

I agree that getting Perl6 into the curricula is a good idea, and
comparing it to Python if done reasonably and politely would help the
cause of those who want to migrate their course over.

That said I don't think that those fine folk on Perlmonks are all that
correct about the lack of a business case for Perl6, and the degree to
which they are will fall significantly in the next few years. Already
its trivial to use most modules on the CPAN with Inline::Perl5 (given
a perl5 built with -fPIC) and the NativeCall library makes C libraries
easy to use with relatively simple declarations. There are tooling,
speed, portability and stability issues to be sorted but in all these
cases I think the future looks brighter for v6.

Businesses need to keep an eye out for what's next and while I
wouldn't bet the farm on one language, it seems reasonable to bet the
back paddock on v6.

Just my 2c. Don't flame me bro'!

On 20 January 2016 at 14:25, vijayvithal jahagirdar
 wrote:
> I agree, perl6 can be the glue language in academics which can be used to
> showcase different computing concepts, be it methodologies - functional,
> oops,procedural -, parallelism, VM, antlr etc.
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016, 2:29 AM Peter Scott  wrote:
>>
>> I have seen Damian demonstrate how Perl 6 can be the best language for
>> teaching functional, procedural, and object-oriented programming.
>>
>> On 1/19/2016 10:37 AM, Darren Duncan wrote:
>> > I very much agree with this idea, of arguing Perl 6 as a teaching
>> > language. Academia are the ones that would appreciate what Perl 6
>> > offers the most in the short term, whereas industry would demand a
>> > higher standard for it becoming popular.  And the first can lead to
>> > the second. -- Darren Duncan
>> >
>> > On 2016-01-19 9:19 AM, Parrot Raiser wrote:
>> >> I believe Damian Conway thinks P6 would be a very good CS teaching
>> >> language.
>> >>
>> >> On 1/19/16, Tom Browder  wrote:
>> >>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Steve Mynott
>> >>> 
>> >>> wrote:
>>  I think targeting Perl 6 at CS academic teachers is an excellent idea
>>  as a way of generally promoting use of the language.
>> 
>>  But I'd be wary of "bashing" current choices such as Python and don't
>>  believe any objective comparison of the two languages is possible.
>> 
>>  Python is in any case derived from ABC which was explicitly designed
>>  for teaching purposes.
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm not suggesting bashing Python, Steve, I just think some comparison
>> >>> is necessary.
>> >
>>
>

Perl 6 Advocacy Suggestion

[Tom Browder]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016, B. Estrade > wrote:
...

Thanks for the thoughtful comments, Brett.

Cheers!

-Tom

Re: Perl 6 Advocacy Suggestion

[Tom Browder]

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016, Andrew Kirkpatrick 
wrote:
...

> That said I don't think that those fine folk on Perlmonks are all that

correct about the lack of a business case for Perl6, and the degree to
> which they are will fall significantly in the next few years. Already

...

> Businesses need to keep an eye out for what's next and while I
> wouldn't bet the farm on one language, it seems reasonable to bet the
> back paddock on v6.


Good, uplifting points, Andrew. Thanks.

-Tom

Re: Perl 6 Advocacy Suggestion

[B. Estrade]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 9:57 AM, Tom Browder  wrote:

> Last year I mentioned a letter-to-the-editor in Communications of the
> ACM which discussed the short-comings of Python as an introduction to
> programming for computer science students.  As a response to that
> letter, I suggested that the dissatisfied professor consider Perl 6 as
> it would meet his requirements.
>
> My casual look at the programming scene over the last decade seems to
> show that Python is regularly chosen as the language for open source
> projects and as a teaching language.  The Perl community on
>   seems adamant that there are few, if any, business
> reasons for Perl 5 shops to use Perl 6, so the academic community may
> be the best place to aim Perl 6 marketing for the growth of a Perl 6
> community among young people.
>
> I have seen lots of blogs and on-line articles comparing the two
> languages, but I have not yet found one truly suitable for college and
> high school academic marketing and curriculum development.  The only
> article on Perl 6 I have found in the ACM archives was a 2007 article
> by Audrey Tang.  Its citation and access page is found here:
>
>   http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1190216.1190218
>
> Note the ACM reports that the article has been cited two times in
> other ACM articles, and has been downloaded a total of 524 times.
>
> I also searched the IEEE archives for Perl 6 and found nothing.
>
> Suggestion
> 
>
> I suggest that a good move would be to produce a good, and current,
> scholarly article, aiming to be published in a suitable professional
> journal, with a detailed, objective comparison between Python and Perl
> 6.  I'm sure there are properly-qualified people in the Perl 6
> community that could do a very credible job, and it should be worth
> support from the Perl Foundation.
>
> Audrey Tang's article (based on information on the citation page only)
> doesn't seem to fit the specific comparison I think is needed, but the
> article may be useful background for any new author.
>
> Of course there may already be such an article in academia, but
> apparently not in the computer science education realm.
>

Good luck with your efforts. There is interest in the academic community
about Perl/Perl6 as evidenced by Larry Wall's inclusion in the HOPL III
round table discussion that I mention here,
http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=906901.

The video for your pleasure is here; I hope the FBI does't raid me for
sharing this, but it's of interest to the community and I pay ACM enough
money annually to let me do this once in a while .  It's been a while
since I watched the video, but I recall Larry having to fend off a bunch of
academics who seem to envy/not-understand the widespread adoption of Perl
when their pet language is so nice and pure.

http://www.0x743.com/a4-fisher-h.mov (400MB)

I would think that while you're going to have a tough time selling Perl6 as
a teaching language, it should be (and probably is) of interest to the
those in programming language related SIGs.

I would target them, but in a more academic way - maybe organize some
efforts to discuss the interested/practical features of Perl6 versus some
of the more purely academic languages (where mental masturbation seems to
thrive).

In regards to a teaching language, Python reminds me greatly of the role
Fortran used to play, but here wrt scripting languages. It's made great
inroads not only as a teaching language, but also as a language that HPC
just loves for days.

One reason may be that SciPy suite made such an impact on the HPC world
when it was first released, but there also seems to be some innate
qualities about Python that some science domains prefer. On the other hand,
we know when the domains that Perl dominates (bioinformatics, text
analysis, PDL, etc).

You can also try to impress the folks in communities like LtU - demonstrate
the interesting aspects of the language; compare with their lovelies and
show that Perl6 excels in practical environments. At the end of the day,
what will sell it is not arguing the merits of the language, but
overwhelmingly demonstrating them - again and again and again. And even
after that, they might still not see. Perl6 would not be the first language
to fail at this.

Again, I wish you good luck - and not in a sarcastic way. I appreciate any
and all efforts to make inroads into the academic world for Perl.

Cheers,
Brett


>
> Best regards,
>
> -Tom
>

Re: Perl 6 Advocacy Suggestion

[webmind]

Great idea!

I always thought Perl in general was quite suited for show casing and
learning with different styles and ways of solving problems. It's
flexibility is a key element in that. Especially in CS, students need to
learn that there is more then one way to do it and be able to compare
those different ways. Perl 6 in that line a great asset.

w

On 19/01/16 16:57, Tom Browder wrote:
> Last year I mentioned a letter-to-the-editor in Communications of the
> ACM which discussed the short-comings of Python as an introduction to
> programming for computer science students.  As a response to that
> letter, I suggested that the dissatisfied professor consider Perl 6 as
> it would meet his requirements.
> 
> My casual look at the programming scene over the last decade seems to
> show that Python is regularly chosen as the language for open source
> projects and as a teaching language.  The Perl community on
>   seems adamant that there are few, if any, business
> reasons for Perl 5 shops to use Perl 6, so the academic community may
> be the best place to aim Perl 6 marketing for the growth of a Perl 6
> community among young people.
> 
> I have seen lots of blogs and on-line articles comparing the two
> languages, but I have not yet found one truly suitable for college and
> high school academic marketing and curriculum development.  The only
> article on Perl 6 I have found in the ACM archives was a 2007 article
> by Audrey Tang.  Its citation and access page is found here:
> 
>   http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1190216.1190218
> 
> Note the ACM reports that the article has been cited two times in
> other ACM articles, and has been downloaded a total of 524 times.
> 
> I also searched the IEEE archives for Perl 6 and found nothing.
> 
> Suggestion
> 
> 
> I suggest that a good move would be to produce a good, and current,
> scholarly article, aiming to be published in a suitable professional
> journal, with a detailed, objective comparison between Python and Perl
> 6.  I'm sure there are properly-qualified people in the Perl 6
> community that could do a very credible job, and it should be worth
> support from the Perl Foundation.
> 
> Audrey Tang's article (based on information on the citation page only)
> doesn't seem to fit the specific comparison I think is needed, but the
> article may be useful background for any new author.
> 
> Of course there may already be such an article in academia, but
> apparently not in the computer science education realm.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> -Tom
> 


-- 
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Re: Perl 6 Advocacy Suggestion

[Peter Scott]

I have seen Damian demonstrate how Perl 6 can be the best language for 
teaching functional, procedural, and object-oriented programming.


On 1/19/2016 10:37 AM, Darren Duncan wrote:
I very much agree with this idea, of arguing Perl 6 as a teaching 
language. Academia are the ones that would appreciate what Perl 6 
offers the most in the short term, whereas industry would demand a 
higher standard for it becoming popular.  And the first can lead to 
the second. -- Darren Duncan


On 2016-01-19 9:19 AM, Parrot Raiser wrote:
I believe Damian Conway thinks P6 would be a very good CS teaching 
language.


On 1/19/16, Tom Browder  wrote:

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Steve Mynott 
wrote:

I think targeting Perl 6 at CS academic teachers is an excellent idea
as a way of generally promoting use of the language.

But I'd be wary of "bashing" current choices such as Python and don't
believe any objective comparison of the two languages is possible.

Python is in any case derived from ABC which was explicitly designed
for teaching purposes.


I'm not suggesting bashing Python, Steve, I just think some comparison
is necessary.

Re: Perl 6 Advocacy Suggestion

[Darren Duncan]

I very much agree with this idea, of arguing Perl 6 as a teaching language. 
Academia are the ones that would appreciate what Perl 6 offers the most in the 
short term, whereas industry would demand a higher standard for it becoming 
popular.  And the first can lead to the second. -- Darren Duncan


On 2016-01-19 9:19 AM, Parrot Raiser wrote:

I believe Damian Conway thinks P6 would be a very good CS teaching language.

On 1/19/16, Tom Browder  wrote:

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Steve Mynott 
wrote:

I think targeting Perl 6 at CS academic teachers is an excellent idea
as a way of generally promoting use of the language.

But I'd be wary of "bashing" current choices such as Python and don't
believe any objective comparison of the two languages is possible.

Python is in any case derived from ABC which was explicitly designed
for teaching purposes.


I'm not suggesting bashing Python, Steve, I just think some comparison
is necessary.

Re: Perl 6 Advocacy Suggestion

[vijayvithal jahagirdar]

I agree, perl6 can be the glue language in academics which can be used to
showcase different computing concepts, be it methodologies - functional,
oops,procedural -, parallelism, VM, antlr etc.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016, 2:29 AM Peter Scott  wrote:

> I have seen Damian demonstrate how Perl 6 can be the best language for
> teaching functional, procedural, and object-oriented programming.
>
> On 1/19/2016 10:37 AM, Darren Duncan wrote:
> > I very much agree with this idea, of arguing Perl 6 as a teaching
> > language. Academia are the ones that would appreciate what Perl 6
> > offers the most in the short term, whereas industry would demand a
> > higher standard for it becoming popular.  And the first can lead to
> > the second. -- Darren Duncan
> >
> > On 2016-01-19 9:19 AM, Parrot Raiser wrote:
> >> I believe Damian Conway thinks P6 would be a very good CS teaching
> >> language.
> >>
> >> On 1/19/16, Tom Browder  wrote:
> >>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Steve Mynott  >
> >>> wrote:
>  I think targeting Perl 6 at CS academic teachers is an excellent idea
>  as a way of generally promoting use of the language.
> 
>  But I'd be wary of "bashing" current choices such as Python and don't
>  believe any objective comparison of the two languages is possible.
> 
>  Python is in any case derived from ABC which was explicitly designed
>  for teaching purposes.
> >>>
> >>> I'm not suggesting bashing Python, Steve, I just think some comparison
> >>> is necessary.
> >
>
>

Perl 6 Advocacy Suggestion

[Tom Browder]

Last year I mentioned a letter-to-the-editor in Communications of the
ACM which discussed the short-comings of Python as an introduction to
programming for computer science students.  As a response to that
letter, I suggested that the dissatisfied professor consider Perl 6 as
it would meet his requirements.

My casual look at the programming scene over the last decade seems to
show that Python is regularly chosen as the language for open source
projects and as a teaching language.  The Perl community on
  seems adamant that there are few, if any, business
reasons for Perl 5 shops to use Perl 6, so the academic community may
be the best place to aim Perl 6 marketing for the growth of a Perl 6
community among young people.

I have seen lots of blogs and on-line articles comparing the two
languages, but I have not yet found one truly suitable for college and
high school academic marketing and curriculum development.  The only
article on Perl 6 I have found in the ACM archives was a 2007 article
by Audrey Tang.  Its citation and access page is found here:

  http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1190216.1190218

Note the ACM reports that the article has been cited two times in
other ACM articles, and has been downloaded a total of 524 times.

I also searched the IEEE archives for Perl 6 and found nothing.

Suggestion


I suggest that a good move would be to produce a good, and current,
scholarly article, aiming to be published in a suitable professional
journal, with a detailed, objective comparison between Python and Perl
6.  I'm sure there are properly-qualified people in the Perl 6
community that could do a very credible job, and it should be worth
support from the Perl Foundation.

Audrey Tang's article (based on information on the citation page only)
doesn't seem to fit the specific comparison I think is needed, but the
article may be useful background for any new author.

Of course there may already be such an article in academia, but
apparently not in the computer science education realm.

Best regards,

-Tom

Re: Perl 6 Advocacy Suggestion

[yary]

Good idea. Not sure if it needs to compare with Python explicitly. The
message is that it's a great language for learning programming on its
own; the reader can see that from the positive examples given and make
any comparisons to other languages while reading. No need to give
space away to any other language, that's a distraction.


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Re: Perl 6 Advocacy Suggestion

[Steve Mynott]

I think targeting Perl 6 at CS academic teachers is an excellent idea
as a way of generally promoting use of the language.

But I'd be wary of "bashing" current choices such as Python and don't
believe any objective comparison of the two languages is possible.

Python is in any case derived from ABC which was explicitly designed
for teaching purposes.

Presenting Perl 6 advantages such as concurrency and grammars would be
more positive.

S

On 19 January 2016 at 15:57, Tom Browder  wrote:
> Last year I mentioned a letter-to-the-editor in Communications of the
> ACM which discussed the short-comings of Python as an introduction to
> programming for computer science students.  As a response to that
> letter, I suggested that the dissatisfied professor consider Perl 6 as
> it would meet his requirements.
>
> My casual look at the programming scene over the last decade seems to
> show that Python is regularly chosen as the language for open source
> projects and as a teaching language.  The Perl community on
>   seems adamant that there are few, if any, business
> reasons for Perl 5 shops to use Perl 6, so the academic community may
> be the best place to aim Perl 6 marketing for the growth of a Perl 6
> community among young people.
>
> I have seen lots of blogs and on-line articles comparing the two
> languages, but I have not yet found one truly suitable for college and
> high school academic marketing and curriculum development.  The only
> article on Perl 6 I have found in the ACM archives was a 2007 article
> by Audrey Tang.  Its citation and access page is found here:
>
>   http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1190216.1190218
>
> Note the ACM reports that the article has been cited two times in
> other ACM articles, and has been downloaded a total of 524 times.
>
> I also searched the IEEE archives for Perl 6 and found nothing.
>
> Suggestion
> 
>
> I suggest that a good move would be to produce a good, and current,
> scholarly article, aiming to be published in a suitable professional
> journal, with a detailed, objective comparison between Python and Perl
> 6.  I'm sure there are properly-qualified people in the Perl 6
> community that could do a very credible job, and it should be worth
> support from the Perl Foundation.
>
> Audrey Tang's article (based on information on the citation page only)
> doesn't seem to fit the specific comparison I think is needed, but the
> article may be useful background for any new author.
>
> Of course there may already be such an article in academia, but
> apparently not in the computer science education realm.
>
> Best regards,
>
> -Tom



-- 
4096R/EA75174B Steve Mynott 

Re: Perl 6 Advocacy Suggestion

[Tom Browder]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:06 AM, yary  wrote:
> Good idea. Not sure if it needs to compare with Python explicitly. The
> message is that it's a great language for learning programming on its
> own; the reader can see that from the positive examples given and make
> any comparisons to other languages while reading. No need to give
> space away to any other language, that's a distraction.

Thanks, Yary.  I was trying to suggest that at least the major
shortcomings of Python need to be addressed specifically to bolster
the argument for schools to change their current practices to use Perl
6 which will provide the needed attributes the CS professor feels are
needed.

I believe I can find the original letter in the ACM article if that would help.
.
Best,

-Tom

Re: Perl 6 Advocacy Suggestion

[Tom Browder]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Steve Mynott  wrote:
> I think targeting Perl 6 at CS academic teachers is an excellent idea
> as a way of generally promoting use of the language.
>
> But I'd be wary of "bashing" current choices such as Python and don't
> believe any objective comparison of the two languages is possible.
>
> Python is in any case derived from ABC which was explicitly designed
> for teaching purposes.

I'm not suggesting bashing Python, Steve, I just think some comparison
is necessary.

The article I am referencing is this:

Python for Beginners
___
By Esther Shein
Communications of the ACM, Vol. 58 No. 3, Pages 19-21
10.1145/2716560

Here is an excerpt detailing some criticisms of Python as a teaching language


Not everyone agrees Python is the be-all-end-all as an introductory
programming language. Shriram Krishnamurthi, a professor of computer
science at Brown University, acknowledges Python has many nice
features. "It offers a pleasant syntax, a large set of libraries, and
an interaction loop ... all of which are very useful for teaching.
Compared to the noise and complexity of Java, it is indeed a very nice
step forward." He agrees Python has made people feel more comfortable
about exposing programming to a much broader audience of students.

"There are many students I would not dream of teaching Java to that I
would happily show Python." That said, however, it does not take long
to discover Python's weaknesses, Krishnamurthi notes. Among them are
that "Creating non-trivial data structures is onerous, because Python
does not provide straightforward means for creating new structured
data. You have to understand a bunch of unrelated concepts, like
classes, and their onerous syntax and tricky semantics, which greatly
reduces the benefit of simplicity that Python was supposed to offer."

Because of this, he believes more and more curricula are ditching the
idea of structured data—one of the central concepts in computer
science—and doing one of two things: shaping their curriculum to avoid
them, or pushing students to encode more-structured data in
less-structured formats provided by default in Python.

"This lack of data structuring and classification has a significant
negative impact on teaching program design," Krishnamurthi says. "The
best program design methods we have right now focus on data-driven
design, which derive from the structure of data."


Best,

-Tom