Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 04:52, C Bobroff wrote: You have! You just didn't notice. You also put them (i.e. pronounce the ezaafe) in personal names when speaking which you also don't notice. Like in feredrish-e niche, or reymond-e kaarver? ;) roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
They are hard because they have really never seen anyone puts Kasre in personal names. Neither do I. It is sometimes pronounced but almost never written. Elnaz Well, all the time does not, in fact, mean all the time in English. It just means all the time. You know, a synonym for sometimes! Why do you have to always be so hard on the poor molla from Qazvin? -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
OT: On computing, in Persian
The Shargh newspaper has a weird article about Linux and GNU. It's off-topic here (it's in Persian and on Computing, just that), but it used a really weird language that may be interesting for some members here. It also mentions a few ideas about localization at the end. It's titled Linux is a User of Philosophy: http://www.sharghnewspaper.com/830323/idea.htm#s68703 The credit to find it goes to Hamed Malek (a silent lurker here). I don't read the andishe page in Shargh. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
Here are my observed rules of 'pronouncing' kasre ezaafe in pronunciation of first name. Rule 1: The following rules only apply when first name is followed by last name Rule 2: Do not add ksare ezafe at the end of names foreign origin, even if they come from a Persian speaking country, e.g. Ahmad Shah Masoud. Rule 3: Do not add kasre ezaafe at the end of first names ending with vowels, e.g., Ali, Minoo, Saba, Reza, Kaveh. However, adding a YEH + KASRE is sometimes done only for dramatic effects. For example, pronounce Ali Heydari as written, but it is acceptable (but not customary) to pronounce as Ali Ye Heydari. Rule 4: Do pronounce a weak, almost unnoticeable kasre ezafe at the end of first names ending with a consonant. On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:50:13 +0430, Roozbeh Pournader [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 04:52, C Bobroff wrote: You have! You just didn't notice. You also put them (i.e. pronounce the ezaafe) in personal names when speaking which you also don't notice. Like in feredrish-e niche, or reymond-e kaarver? ;) roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
Hi Michael again after a long time, You've unfortunately been CC'd in the middle of a conversation on *locale requirements* not unicode level encoding. You are correct and encouraged to put Persian in with Arabic for unicode purposes. At the level of the current conversation, however, modern standard Persian is written in the *Perso-Arabic script.* Urdu is also written in the Perso-Arabic script. (Urdu is NOT written in the Perso-Arabic-Urdu script.) Arabic is written in the Arabic script. Various North African languages and dialects are written in a modified Arabic script. Please don't consider the letter Beh. Think about the Yeh, the Keheh, numbers 4,5,6, Heh+Hamzeh Above, ZWNJ, some punctuation, sorting. I'm not talking about calligraphic styles here. It is ok to just say Arabic script if you are simply differentiating it from Japanese and Latin. But at the level of Locale specs, you need to be more precise so as to reflect the additions and modifications of the original Arabic script from which it was derived. Since this locale information is being written in Persian, it can be assumed that the Persian readers know the script they are reading the info in has some additions and modifications. However, for an internatinal audience, (not the unicode level), it is necessary to make it clear that modern Persian is not written in the same exact script as modern Arabic. I don't think it is *too much* wishful thinking that non-Persian experts will want / need to consult this document. Again, you got dragged into something without context. That's why Im not replying to you point-by-point. -Connie On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Michael Everson wrote: At 15:43 +0430 2004-06-13, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: I wish to restate my position. I'm CC-ing Michael Everson, a Unicode expert in script naming. Michael, would you please tell us if Connie is right here? On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 00:49, C Bobroff wrote: Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles. No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in Perso-Arabic script. Not since the 19th century. You can also say a modified form of the Arabic script but that is what is meant by Perso-Arabic script. Just Arabic script only applies to the Arabic language. This is not correct. What Ms Bobroff is doing is confusing character and glyph, I believe. It us true that the Arabic script has many variant styles, but this does not mean that those styles are or should be encoded as different characters. The ARABIC LETTER BEH which is used in Arabic, Persian, Urdu, Pashto, Sindhi, Kurdish, Kashmiri, Malay, Balochi, Uzbek, Kazakh, Uighur, etc. is the SAME intrinsic character in all of them. It has right-to-left directionality. It has a nominal, initial, medial, and final form which connects to other letters. Arabic script can be written or otherwise displayed in a number of styles, such as Kufi, Nastaliq, Naskh, and Maghrebi. But all varieties are ways of writing the same essential characters, and because of that, it is correct to speak of only one script. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft (fwd)
(I'm forwarding this on behalf of someone with mailer problems.) -- Forwarded message -- Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:58:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Arash Zeini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Connie Bobroff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft In a message dated Sunday 13 June 2004 04:43, Michael Everson wrote: Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles. No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in Perso-Arabic script. Not since the 19th century. You can also say a modified form of the Arabic script but that is what is meant by Perso-Arabic script. Just Arabic script only applies to the Arabic language. This is not correct. Hi Connie, This is Arash Zeini. I have a problem with my SMTP server and hence can not send email from my regular account. So I am not posting this to the ML, but feel free to forward my comment below it to the list. I have not been following the discussion very tightly, but I think that Mr. Everson misunderstood the context of the discussion. I can confirm that you are right. In linguistic circles Perso-Arabic script is used to refer to the modified Arabic script used in Iran to write Farsi (Persian). Greetings, Arash __ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Elnaz Sarbar wrote: They are hard because they have really never seen anyone puts Kasre in personal names. Neither do I. It is sometimes pronounced but almost never written. OK, a sane person enters. Since you have at least *heard* it, please see if you can find a pattern as to WHEN it is said. Really, the speech-to-text people may thank you. For example, how is it that the same person, in the same speech will say, Ahmad Shamlu mord. Then a few seconds later say, Ahmad-e Shamlu, nevisandeh-ye borzorg... What are the conditions involved? I suspect it follows strict natural laws of linguistics, and of course influenced by mood and style. I just want to know what they are! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: OT: On computing, in Persian
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: used a really weird language that may be interesting for some members here. Very weird indeed! BTW, what's with this new usage of replacing Peh with Yeh. Do we not have enough Yeh problems as it is? http://www.sharghnewspaper.com/830323/idea.htm#s68703 -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You would say Omar Khayyam and also say Hafez-e Shirazi. Hehe. I've recently seen Omar-e Khayyam in the middle of some text (not on the decorative front cover) written with Kasre. Too bad I forgot where it was... -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote: Rule 1: The following rules only apply when first name is followed by last name Most scientific. Rule 2: Do not add ksare ezafe at the end of names foreign origin, even if they come from a Persian speaking country, e.g. Ahmad Shah Masoud. Evidence from the streets does not support you. Rule 3: Do not add kasre ezaafe at the end of first names ending with vowels, e.g., Ali, Minoo, Saba, Reza, Kaveh. However, adding a YEH + KASRE is sometimes done only for dramatic effects. For example, pronounce Ali Heydari as written, but it is acceptable (but not customary) to pronounce as Ali Ye Heydari. Yeh+kasre is ok in non-dramatic situations, too. You're definitely correct about the Alif-ending first names. Rule 4: Do pronounce a weak, almost unnoticeable kasre ezafe at the end of first names ending with a consonant. Ezafeh in general (not just in names) is not allowed to be stressed ever. This is one of the properties of the Ezafeh. Nice of you to work on the problem, Ordak. It seems the same people who saved a lot of money not making a Persian font also saved even more money by not making a complete documented linguistic description of Persian nor any [good quality] textbooks and [complete] grammars. Great that so much money was saved! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
