Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 23:39, Ali A Khanban wrote: Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count. I believe national requirements of a government counts, whoever the author. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
I don't know how you got to the page, but it is about the the Arabic *language* in Iran. The (almost) correct Persian page is at: http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=fa_IR (which is done partially by me.) roozbeh On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 05:01, Ali A. Khanban wrote: Hi, Have a look at: http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=ard_=en_US_r=IR; Maybe we need to submit the draft version to correct this. Anyway, as long as there is a note, it should be OK to refer to script as Arabic, though I still prefer something like Perso-Arabic. Best -ali- C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote: Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count. Do a google search for pashto perso-arabic to see that many authors think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script. Then do a google search for pashto arabic script and you'll see with just a quick glance that most further explain that it is *modified* Arabic script or called *Perso-Arabic.* If you're writing in English, you'd better not say simply Arabic script. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
Thanks. BTW, in locale, I noticed that there is no am and pm for time, and it is only 24 hour time in Iran. I remember two words baamdaam and ba'd az zohr were used by radio/tv presenters most of the time. Of course people always use ba'd az zohr, but rarely baamdaad. I think deleting 12 hour clock is not fair. We could use the current entries in AMPM part of the locale in the following link, that you sent me. Best -ali- Roozbeh Pournader wrote: I don't know how you got to the page, but it is about the the Arabic *language* in Iran. The (almost) correct Persian page is at: http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=fa_IR (which is done partially by me.) roozbeh On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 05:01, Ali A. Khanban wrote: Hi, Have a look at: http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=ard_=en_US_r=IR; Maybe we need to submit the draft version to correct this. Anyway, as long as there is a note, it should be OK to refer to script as Arabic, though I still prefer something like Perso-Arabic. Best -ali- C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote: Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count. Do a google search for pashto perso-arabic to see that many authors think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script. Then do a google search for pashto arabic script and you'll see with just a quick glance that most further explain that it is *modified* Arabic script or called *Perso-Arabic.* If you're writing in English, you'd better not say simply Arabic script. -Connie -- || Ali Asghar Khanban || ||Research Associate in Department of Computing ||| Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K. || Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599 ||| [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
I think the best solution is to use the 24 hour clock when it's possible. This should become a standard in all printed documents (digital or paper). The 12 hour clock can exist as a second choise. Instead of AM/PM, we can use Baamdaad/Shaamgaah, which have Persian origines, or Sobh/Shab. But when you think more about these choises and other similar terms (Sobh/Asr, Rooz/Shab, Ghabl Az Zoh/Bad Az Zohr, ...) none of them are completely compatible with 12 hour clock. Just imagine 10:23 Baamdaad for the morning or 10:55 Asr and 10:55 Baaz Az Zohr for the night. They don't make any sens! Maybe it's better to follow the Microsoft's choise: Ghabl Az Zohr/Baad Az Zohr (B.Z/GH.Z) or Pish Az Zohr/Pas Az Zohr, where the second group cannot be abbreviated (P.Z/P.Z !!) Another similarity between Persian and French! In French also there is no equivalent to AM/PM. They use always the 24 hour clock in printed stuff and the following rule in conversation: 00 To 12: matin (sobh) 12 To 17-19(depends on the season): après-midi (baad az zohr) 17-19 To 00: soir (shab) Sina Original Message Follows From: Ali A. Khanban [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roozbeh Pournader [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: Persian Computing [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:49:55 +0100 Thanks. BTW, in locale, I noticed that there is no am and pm for time, and it is only 24 hour time in Iran. I remember two words baamdaam and ba'd az zohr were used by radio/tv presenters most of the time. Of course people always use ba'd az zohr, but rarely baamdaad. I think deleting 12 hour clock is not fair. We could use the current entries in AMPM part of the locale in the following link, that you sent me. Best -ali- Roozbeh Pournader wrote: I don't know how you got to the page, but it is about the the Arabic *language* in Iran. The (almost) correct Persian page is at: http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=fa_IR (which is done partially by me.) roozbeh On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 05:01, Ali A. Khanban wrote: Hi, Have a look at: http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=ard_=en_US_r=IR; Maybe we need to submit the draft version to correct this. Anyway, as long as there is a note, it should be OK to refer to script as Arabic, though I still prefer something like Perso-Arabic. Best -ali- C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote: Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count. Do a google search for pashto perso-arabic to see that many authors think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script. Then do a google search for pashto arabic script and you'll see with just a quick glance that most further explain that it is *modified* Arabic script or called *Perso-Arabic.* If you're writing in English, you'd better not say simply Arabic script. -Connie -- || Ali Asghar Khanban || ||Research Associate in Department of Computing ||| Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K. || Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599 ||| [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote: Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count. Do a google search for pashto perso-arabic to see that many authors think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script. Then do a google search for pashto arabic script and you'll see with just a quick glance that most further explain that it is *modified* Arabic script or called *Perso-Arabic.* If you're writing in English, you'd better not say simply Arabic script. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
Hi, Have a look at: http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=ard_=en_US_r=IR; Maybe we need to submit the draft version to correct this. Anyway, as long as there is a note, it should be OK to refer to script as Arabic, though I still prefer something like Perso-Arabic. Best -ali- C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote: Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count. Do a google search for pashto perso-arabic to see that many authors think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script. Then do a google search for pashto arabic script and you'll see with just a quick glance that most further explain that it is *modified* Arabic script or called *Perso-Arabic.* If you're writing in English, you'd better not say simply Arabic script. -Connie -- || Ali Asghar Khanban || ||Research Associate in Department of Computing ||| Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K. || Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599 ||| [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
Hi Michael again after a long time, You've unfortunately been CC'd in the middle of a conversation on *locale requirements* not unicode level encoding. You are correct and encouraged to put Persian in with Arabic for unicode purposes. At the level of the current conversation, however, modern standard Persian is written in the *Perso-Arabic script.* Urdu is also written in the Perso-Arabic script. (Urdu is NOT written in the Perso-Arabic-Urdu script.) Arabic is written in the Arabic script. Various North African languages and dialects are written in a modified Arabic script. Please don't consider the letter Beh. Think about the Yeh, the Keheh, numbers 4,5,6, Heh+Hamzeh Above, ZWNJ, some punctuation, sorting. I'm not talking about calligraphic styles here. It is ok to just say Arabic script if you are simply differentiating it from Japanese and Latin. But at the level of Locale specs, you need to be more precise so as to reflect the additions and modifications of the original Arabic script from which it was derived. Since this locale information is being written in Persian, it can be assumed that the Persian readers know the script they are reading the info in has some additions and modifications. However, for an internatinal audience, (not the unicode level), it is necessary to make it clear that modern Persian is not written in the same exact script as modern Arabic. I don't think it is *too much* wishful thinking that non-Persian experts will want / need to consult this document. Again, you got dragged into something without context. That's why Im not replying to you point-by-point. -Connie On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Michael Everson wrote: At 15:43 +0430 2004-06-13, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: I wish to restate my position. I'm CC-ing Michael Everson, a Unicode expert in script naming. Michael, would you please tell us if Connie is right here? On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 00:49, C Bobroff wrote: Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles. No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in Perso-Arabic script. Not since the 19th century. You can also say a modified form of the Arabic script but that is what is meant by Perso-Arabic script. Just Arabic script only applies to the Arabic language. This is not correct. What Ms Bobroff is doing is confusing character and glyph, I believe. It us true that the Arabic script has many variant styles, but this does not mean that those styles are or should be encoded as different characters. The ARABIC LETTER BEH which is used in Arabic, Persian, Urdu, Pashto, Sindhi, Kurdish, Kashmiri, Malay, Balochi, Uzbek, Kazakh, Uighur, etc. is the SAME intrinsic character in all of them. It has right-to-left directionality. It has a nominal, initial, medial, and final form which connects to other letters. Arabic script can be written or otherwise displayed in a number of styles, such as Kufi, Nastaliq, Naskh, and Maghrebi. But all varieties are ways of writing the same essential characters, and because of that, it is correct to speak of only one script. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft (fwd)
(I'm forwarding this on behalf of someone with mailer problems.) -- Forwarded message -- Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:58:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Arash Zeini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Connie Bobroff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft In a message dated Sunday 13 June 2004 04:43, Michael Everson wrote: Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles. No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in Perso-Arabic script. Not since the 19th century. You can also say a modified form of the Arabic script but that is what is meant by Perso-Arabic script. Just Arabic script only applies to the Arabic language. This is not correct. Hi Connie, This is Arash Zeini. I have a problem with my SMTP server and hence can not send email from my regular account. So I am not posting this to the ML, but feel free to forward my comment below it to the list. I have not been following the discussion very tightly, but I think that Mr. Everson misunderstood the context of the discussion. I can confirm that you are right. In linguistic circles Perso-Arabic script is used to refer to the modified Arabic script used in Iran to write Farsi (Persian). Greetings, Arash __ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 21:03, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: They all call it Latin Script (khatte laatin), right? BTW, while khatte laatin is OK, khatte laatini is preferred. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: Many other things may also be optional (like how to write ordibehesht, zi-hajje, or hejdah), but we are only allowing one, There is no comparison between these and the personal name topic. You are giving incomplete and wrong information. And you have every right to do so too so don't let me stop you. However, now that I've pointed it out, I know that even though I'm not going to say another word on this topic, you'll fix it. How do I know? I've come to know your ways very well after so many years. You'll see. all the time. Sorry! Then you need to define all the time. I don't see a Kasra in the author's name on this book that is sitting on my desk. Well, all the time does not, in fact, mean all the time in English. It just means all the time. You know, a synonym for sometimes! Why do you have to always be so hard on the poor molla from Qazvin? -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu? Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles. No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in Perso-Arabic script. You can also say a modified form of the Arabic script but that is what is meant by Perso-Arabic script. Just Arabic script only applies to the Arabic language. Your Persian-knowing readers of the draft will know what you mean if you just say khatt-e `arabi however, I recommend you put Perso-Arabic script (in English) or modified Arabic script so that if the draft gets translated into some other language, the people less familiar with Persian will understand and that will make its way back into the translation. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
I just got this calendar from Iran in the mail: http://students.washington.edu/irina/cal.jpg I guess this orientation is more popular than I thought. I find it too hard to use since I'm used to the more common arrangement (i.e. across the top and then top to bottom) but obviously people do like and prefer this other way. Good thing you included both in the draft! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 08:42, C Bobroff wrote: No kidding, you really typed all those Hamzeh's all by yourself?? Yes. Why are you wondering? Do you agree that sometimes you say, behdaad-e esfahbod and other times you say, behdaad esfahbod? (Note, I said *say*, not *write* for now.) Yes. And my next question is going to be, when? I'm not sure. It really depends on the mood or the speed of speaking. That should keep you busy for a while! You were wrong. ;) roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 08:42, C Bobroff wrote: No kidding, you really typed all those Hamzeh's all by yourself?? Yes. Why are you wondering? Never mind! I don't want to appear as if complaining! And my next question is going to be, when? I'm not sure. It really depends on the mood or the speed of speaking. Ok, I think that's as precise as we're going to get for now. I admit, I hear it more in slow, deliberate, formal speeches than in everyday conversation. (Besides Behdad's example of usage in response to which?) And it's definitely seen in written form, especially on book covers. I think I better scan one to keep on hand! That should keep you busy for a while! You were wrong. ;) Yes, I guess so! ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
Hi all, Well, it depends on your point of view. Instead of bringing the Pashto or Ordu case, lets have a look at the western equivalent. They all call it Latin Script (khatte laatin), right? It's not about language or font-style. And in computer software that's what really matters. Moreover from another point of view--the Unicode standard--we are using the Arabic script, there's no such thing as Persian script encoded in the Unicode standard. behdad On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote: Hi, The name of the script, as in attachment, seems wrong. According to the constitution, the name of the language and script is Farsi (Persian). Look at http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-2.html and http://www.moi.gov.ir/ghavanin/asasi.htm#three I know that Persian script comes from Arabic and many may know it as Arabic, but are all the scripts with their root in Arabic script called Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu? Best -ali- Roozbeh Pournader wrote: I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for the Persian language of Iran. It's available from: http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at [EMAIL PROTECTED], or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write to us at the following address: Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. PO Box 13445-389 Tehran, Iran Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in proprietary software. The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping in the funding. I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar, Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me. Roozbeh Pournader Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
Hi, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Well, it depends on your point of view. Instead of bringing the Pashto or Ordu case, lets have a look at the western equivalent. They all call it Latin Script (khatte laatin), right? It's not about language or font-style. And in computer software that's what really matters. I brought up Pashto and Ordu cases, because they are more relevant to our alphabet. Moreover from another point of view--the Unicode standard--we are using the Arabic script, there's no such thing as Persian script encoded in the Unicode standard. Again, I'd like to know if other Arabic-based scripts, such as Pashto and Ordu, call themselves Arabic script in their locale. If it is common among all these scripts to call themselves Arabic (the case for Latin-based scripts), then we should do that, too. Otherwise, we should call it Persian Script and add some information (Arabic-based nature of the script and so on) in a note. Best -ali- On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote: Hi, The name of the script, as in attachment, seems wrong. According to the constitution, the name of the language and script is Farsi (Persian). Look at http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-2.html and http://www.moi.gov.ir/ghavanin/asasi.htm#three I know that Persian script comes from Arabic and many may know it as Arabic, but are all the scripts with their root in Arabic script called Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu? Best -ali- Roozbeh Pournader wrote: I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for the Persian language of Iran. It's available from: http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at [EMAIL PROTECTED], or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write to us at the following address: Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. PO Box 13445-389 Tehran, Iran Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in proprietary software. The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping in the funding. I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar, Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me. Roozbeh Pournader Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org -- || Ali Asghar Khanban || ||Research Associate in Department of Computing ||| Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K. || Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599 ||| [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 07:41, C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf Congratulations on getting a new typist who is not allergic to Hamzeh's! It's the same old one. Roozbeh Pournader himself. But where did all the Kasreh's marking Ezafeh's go this time? And why no ZWNJ on plural -Ha's? I tried doing it in the Academy's style, since we referring to the Persian Academy's style as normative. I personally hate that, and so do most of FarsiWeb staff, but we needed to be compliant here. Call that an experience... The Academy's style only puts kasre-ye ezaafes when there is a clear ambiguity. And it writes -haa without a ZWNJ. Is that really true you aren't supposed to put a written Kasreh after given names? I know it's definitely not ok (spoken or written) with Rezaa ending in long aa but with Mohsen ending in a consonant? I believe it is common to both write and pronounce the -e there between given and family name. Please inform me. Please note that the specification doesn't discuss pronunciations at all. That only happens in one case (toman), where it better serves as a footnote. At the same time, the Academy doesn't like the Kasras, so... If that doesn't answer your question, please ask it in a different way ;) By the way, I have received a PDF file from Iran recently in Persian and it was possible to copy and paste from the PDF text into Notepad and all the letters came out perfectly, only the letters were running backwards from left to right. I can't seem to copy and paste with yours. It ends up in garbage characters. Wish I knew these PDF secrets! I don't know what may be the problem. I would be enlightened if you tell about PDF tricks you may know that can solve that kind of problems. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
Roozbeh Pournader wrote: I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for the Persian language of Iran. It's available from: http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf Th attachment should be a type, I guess. Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at [EMAIL PROTECTED], or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write to us at the following address: Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. PO Box 13445-389 Tehran, Iran Does that mean we should send our comments only to the above email and not to this list? Best -ali- -- || Ali Asghar Khanban || ||Research Associate in Department of Computing ||| Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K. || Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599 ||| [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban inline: type1.gif___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:15, Ali A Khanban wrote: Th attachment should be a type, I guess. Yes, it is a typo. Does that mean we should send our comments only to the above email and not to this list? That means we appreciate it if it is sent to that email address. You're welcome to discuss any on-topic matter on the list of course. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote: We don't write Ezafe in noun phrase constituents; There is a big difference between *we never write* and *we sometimes write*. Obviously, you DO mark the ezafeh in certain situations. In this case, if the draft says says that one may not mark the ezafeh to connect given and family name, then either that's a new rule or the draft is wrong. I see that written, especially for authors on book titles all time. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote: We don't write Ezafe in noun phrase constituents; There is a big difference between *we never write* and *we sometimes write*. Obviously, you DO mark the ezafeh in certain situations. In this case, if the draft says says that one may not mark the ezafeh to connect given and family name, then either that's a new rule or the draft is wrong. I see that written, especially for authors on book titles all time. No this is not a new rule, nor the spec is wrong. They *never* write that in Iran. You may write mohsen-e rezaai only for example to distinguish it from mohsen-e rafsanjaani, but this way the two parts of the name are appearing as two different phrases, not one. -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for the Persian language of Iran. It's available from: http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at [EMAIL PROTECTED], or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write to us at the following address: Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. PO Box 13445-389 Tehran, Iran Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in proprietary software. The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping in the funding. I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar, Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me. Roozbeh Pournader Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
Thanks a lot Roozbeh for making the release. Just the first point to discuss: People use sadom-e saaniye, not milli saanie. You can hear it in IRI news too. Also, tak tak should be written using ZWNJ, no matter what orthography regulations you use. More later. behdad On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for the Persian language of Iran. It's available from: http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at [EMAIL PROTECTED], or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write to us at the following address: Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. PO Box 13445-389 Tehran, Iran Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in proprietary software. The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping in the funding. I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar, Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me. Roozbeh Pournader Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf Congratulations on getting a new typist who is not allergic to Hamzeh's! But where did all the Kasreh's marking Ezafeh's go this time? And why no ZWNJ on plural -Ha's? Well, Roozbeh should give the answer, but my guess: It's typeset in Persian Academy's orthography. Is that really true you aren't supposed to put a written Kasreh after given names? I know it's definitely not ok (spoken or written) with Rezaa ending in long aa but with Mohsen ending in a consonant? I believe it is common to both write and pronounce the -e there between given and family name. Please inform me. No, Kasreh Ezafe is neither used in written names, nor in spoken formally. By the way, I have received a PDF file from Iran recently in Persian and it was possible to copy and paste from the PDF text into Notepad and all the letters came out perfectly, only the letters were running backwards from left to right. I can't seem to copy and paste with yours. It ends up in garbage characters. Wish I knew these PDF secrets! No idea. -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Jun 8, 2004, at 7:41 AM, C Bobroff wrote: By the way, I have received a PDF file from Iran recently in Persian and it was possible to copy and paste from the PDF text into Notepad and all the letters came out perfectly, only the letters were running backwards from left to right. I can't seem to copy and paste with yours. It ends up in garbage characters. Wish I knew these PDF secrets! Regarding PDFs: A PDF file only stores display glyphs (not characters) in left to right visual order and by definition can't do anything else. (It is intended to capture exact printout after all processing on the text is done.) For this reason, text extraction and search in PDFs in Arabic/Persian/etc is always a bit tricky. Although good Fonts and PDF viewer software can conceal that inherent complexity. In order for a PDF to be well formed for text search and extraction, font glyph names should conform to the old (90's) version of Adobe Glyph List glyph naming standard. Also, you should use a recent release of Acrobat Distiller (Not the PDFWriter virtual printer driver) to create the PDFs. This may involve additional complications such as first saving to a PostScript print file. PDFWriter can't work reliably because of the way Windows printer driver architecture works. So, don't expect PDFWriter to be fixed until say after Longhorn in 2006. The latest version of Acrobat Reader is somewhat improved in this regard, but to get something that works properly with well-formed PDFs, you will need Adobe Acrobat ME (Middle-East Edition). You can find more information on Adobe Central Europe/Middle East site: http://www.adobeceea.com/products/ME/main.html. They are claiming that the generic Reader 6 should search or copy text but actually only the 6.0 ME Acrobat Standard and Pro work properly and they are expensive if you just want to search or copy text... By the way, one of the potential places that we need a project Defined in FarsiLinux project is a Persian compatible PDF generator and viewer. - Hooman Mehr ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
