Re: Personal names survey
On Mon, 2004-06-21 at 04:34, C Bobroff wrote: On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: we are *specifying* a single way to do things. Why the 2 calendars then? Behdad gave some reason. The other is: because there may be other restrictions. So we are practically saying if you want to do it vertical, do it this way, if you want to do it horizontal, do it that way. If you don't care about horizontal or vertical, we will give you a preferred way. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: we are *specifying* a single way to do things. Why the 2 calendars then? -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sat, 2004-06-19 at 00:32, C Bobroff wrote: I'm so glad you also now see that to *forbid* marking ezaafe in personal names is absurd. Connie, Please! You really don't see the point? We are not documenting practice in the locale spec, we are *specifying* a single way to do things. People are very welcome to ignore the specification and do whatever they like to do, if they don't claim they follow it. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Come on Connie, you're still to provide a real example, from the books or streets whatever. The streets stuff was a joke and I'm afraid I led Ordak on--no pun intended-- a wild-goose chase, (sorry!) but here are some from published books: I'm not convinced with your examples. I don't accept them as authentic. Let's see inside: http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNRahimEM.jpg While it looks like they have put all Kasre's, but there's none after Moini, which is evidently pronounced in more places that the one after Rahim. http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNNaaserEKh.jpg Naaser-e Khosro is a WEIRD. I have never heard anyone pronounce it like that. Everyone just says naaser-khosro just like it's a single word. And again, it's not first-last name combination. http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg I pretty share Mr Khanban's opinion here. To me, ma'soome-ye ma'dan-kan looks like anything but personal name. What about ma'soom-e haftom? -Connie The bottom line: Thanks Connie, you showed us that there are people printing that thing in reality. I don't like to argue about how widely it's used anymore. If someone has an evidence of Persian Academy putting this Kasre, please bring the issue up again for our reconsideration. Thanks, --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
Behdad Esfahbod wrote: The bottom line: Thanks Connie, you showed us that there are people printing that thing in reality. I don't like to argue about how widely it's used anymore. If someone has an evidence of Persian Academy putting this Kasre, please bring the issue up again for our reconsideration. As long as I remember, there has been a rule 'no kasre between name and family', and there was never anything in favour of kasra in this particular case. These examples, thanks to Connie, shows only some extreme cases, or typos. I, personally, need to see some linguists in favour of using kasre. Best -ali- -- || Ali Asghar Khanban || ||Research Associate in Department of Computing ||| Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K. || Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599 ||| [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: The bottom line: Thanks Connie, you showed us that there are people printing that thing in reality. Behdad, I'm so glad you also now see that to *forbid* marking ezaafe in personal names is absurd. Well, not quite that. First, we never wanted to *forbid* that, just that we say the right way is not to put. Second, my expression is quite like this: Thanks, Connie, you showed us that there are people printing Arabic Yeh instead of Persian Yeh in reality. Can you deduce from this sentence that using Arabic Yeh instead of Persian Yeh should not be forbidden? (And in fact a few people like Dariush Ashoori do that intentionally.) Have a really nice day! You too. -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Ali A. Khanban wrote: Sure. No argument about that. ye badal az kasre is used, as we all know, when the first word ends in aa, oo, unpronounced Heh, ... Ok, I'm going to update my website with info on marking the ezaafe one of these days. I'll submit it for flame-testing when done. Hang on for that. BTW, talking about unpronounced Heh, recently I found out that in the first year of school, they don't call it like that any more. They call it e-ye aakher. I believe in other languages (maybe Kazakh??) there is some Unicode debate going on right now about this letter which can appear in the middle of a word in those languages. This may be part of the ae problem. I'm not sure. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
In my last post on this subject, I completely missed waw and alef at the end of first name. They take yeh of course. Incidentally this is the case that yeh can be omitted (in writing and pronunciation) without being slang. Or even being preferred in many cases. I tried to find a reason for that and I couldn't. But for what it worth, here is what I came up with: Both these vowels have a sustained sound which creates a natural vocal connection to the next word. As opposed to consonants for example which need a kasra to create this vocal connection. vocal connection If you are looking for rules, maybe this is one of criteria to be considered. (I couldn't find a better expression for it!) Behnam On 14-Jun-04, at 9:13 PM, C Bobroff wrote: The streets stuff was a joke and I'm afraid I led Ordak on--no pun intended-- a wild-goose chase, (sorry!) but here are some from published books: http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNRahimEM.jpg http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNNaaserEKh.jpg http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg -Connie ___ ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: I don't see any zillions, hardly a handul of them for your two examples. Compare with... errr.. I meant on the internet there are zillions. I chose only two which is now two more than the total you admit to having seen in your entire life. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Our library is closed all weekend as we're on quarter break but I'll scan a few covers for you on Monday. Maybe not until evening though. Eagerly waiting for them. As I said, I'm not even looking in books till this evening, however, even though someone was recently saying Google can't handle harakat, I decided to try my luck and the first name I tried, Shirin-e Ebadi gave me this: http://www.kanoon-nevisandegan-iran.org/Shirin.htm (look in the second line of text) Another: http://www.vajehmagazine.com/archive/no_2/dialog.asp (line 15: Sohraab-e Sepehri) There are zillions. How many examples will you guys be needing? I don't see any zillions, hardly a handul of them for your two examples. Compare with... errr.. -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Come on Connie, you're still to provide a real example, from the books or streets whatever. The streets stuff was a joke and I'm afraid I led Ordak on--no pun intended-- a wild-goose chase, (sorry!) but here are some from published books: http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNRahimEM.jpg http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNNaaserEKh.jpg http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: don't pronounce them, but I agree that there are times that we do and there should be some trick in there. Still looking for the trick. ok, please figure out when you do and when you don't say the exact same name. That's what I'm after more than anything! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 04:52, C Bobroff wrote: You have! You just didn't notice. You also put them (i.e. pronounce the ezaafe) in personal names when speaking which you also don't notice. Like in feredrish-e niche, or reymond-e kaarver? ;) roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
They are hard because they have really never seen anyone puts Kasre in personal names. Neither do I. It is sometimes pronounced but almost never written. Elnaz Well, all the time does not, in fact, mean all the time in English. It just means all the time. You know, a synonym for sometimes! Why do you have to always be so hard on the poor molla from Qazvin? -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
Here are my observed rules of 'pronouncing' kasre ezaafe in pronunciation of first name. Rule 1: The following rules only apply when first name is followed by last name Rule 2: Do not add ksare ezafe at the end of names foreign origin, even if they come from a Persian speaking country, e.g. Ahmad Shah Masoud. Rule 3: Do not add kasre ezaafe at the end of first names ending with vowels, e.g., Ali, Minoo, Saba, Reza, Kaveh. However, adding a YEH + KASRE is sometimes done only for dramatic effects. For example, pronounce Ali Heydari as written, but it is acceptable (but not customary) to pronounce as Ali Ye Heydari. Rule 4: Do pronounce a weak, almost unnoticeable kasre ezafe at the end of first names ending with a consonant. On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:50:13 +0430, Roozbeh Pournader [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 04:52, C Bobroff wrote: You have! You just didn't notice. You also put them (i.e. pronounce the ezaafe) in personal names when speaking which you also don't notice. Like in feredrish-e niche, or reymond-e kaarver? ;) roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Elnaz Sarbar wrote: They are hard because they have really never seen anyone puts Kasre in personal names. Neither do I. It is sometimes pronounced but almost never written. OK, a sane person enters. Since you have at least *heard* it, please see if you can find a pattern as to WHEN it is said. Really, the speech-to-text people may thank you. For example, how is it that the same person, in the same speech will say, Ahmad Shamlu mord. Then a few seconds later say, Ahmad-e Shamlu, nevisandeh-ye borzorg... What are the conditions involved? I suspect it follows strict natural laws of linguistics, and of course influenced by mood and style. I just want to know what they are! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You would say Omar Khayyam and also say Hafez-e Shirazi. Hehe. I've recently seen Omar-e Khayyam in the middle of some text (not on the decorative front cover) written with Kasre. Too bad I forgot where it was... -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote: Rule 1: The following rules only apply when first name is followed by last name Most scientific. Rule 2: Do not add ksare ezafe at the end of names foreign origin, even if they come from a Persian speaking country, e.g. Ahmad Shah Masoud. Evidence from the streets does not support you. Rule 3: Do not add kasre ezaafe at the end of first names ending with vowels, e.g., Ali, Minoo, Saba, Reza, Kaveh. However, adding a YEH + KASRE is sometimes done only for dramatic effects. For example, pronounce Ali Heydari as written, but it is acceptable (but not customary) to pronounce as Ali Ye Heydari. Yeh+kasre is ok in non-dramatic situations, too. You're definitely correct about the Alif-ending first names. Rule 4: Do pronounce a weak, almost unnoticeable kasre ezafe at the end of first names ending with a consonant. Ezafeh in general (not just in names) is not allowed to be stressed ever. This is one of the properties of the Ezafeh. Nice of you to work on the problem, Ordak. It seems the same people who saved a lot of money not making a Persian font also saved even more money by not making a complete documented linguistic description of Persian nor any [good quality] textbooks and [complete] grammars. Great that so much money was saved! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Personal names survey
Hi Connie, To be honest, I have NEVER seen anyone put Kasre in personal names. I just tried all books in my small shelf and NONE of them had kasre on the cover page. Note that all of these books have been bought in the past year in Tehran (Enghelaab). Here is the list of names I checked for curious: Nasim Daavari AbooToraab Khosravi NikAahang Kowsar Seyyed Ebraahim Nabavi (3) Jey Di Salinjer (8) Ahmad Golshiri Hooshang Golshiri (6) Mostafaa Mastoor (4) Mishel Foko Maani Haghighi M. Aazaad va Said Tavakkoli Asadollaah Amraaii Reymond Kaarver (4) Farzaane Taaheri Ja'far Modarres Saadeghi Shirin Ta'aavoni (Khaaleghi) Meelaad Zakariaa (:D) Mohammad Najafi Itaalo Kaalvino (3) Mohsen Ebraahim Seyyed Mohammad Ali Jamalzaadeh Kort Vone-gaat Joyner Eyn. Alef. Bahraami Negaar Saadeghi Ali Abdollaahi Hermaan Hese Keykaavos Jahaandaari Haaynrish Bol (3) Naataali Choobineh Ahmad Shamlou (5) Fedriko Gaarsiaa Lorkaa Abdolkarim Soroush (2) Iniaatsio Siloneh (2) Mehdi Sahaabi (2) Mohammad Ghaazi Simon Dobovaar Roman Gaari Soroush Habibi Tooraj Rahnamaa Farzaad Hemmati MohammadRezaa Farzaad Feredrish Vilhelm Niche Dariush Ashouri Abbaas Ma'roufi Zoyaa Pirzaad (2) Simin Daaneshvar Bozorg Alavi GholaamHossein Saa'edi Saadegh Hedaayat (2) Noam Chaamski Koorosh Safavi Ahmad Kasravi MohammadRezaa Baateni MohammadRezaa Mohammadi-Far (9) Aandri Taarkofski Hooshang Hesaami YaarAli PoorMoghaddam (5) ... So, here it is. Do you still say all the time? If you still insist on that, I'm afraid your opinion should not be counted, because apparently it's not the practice in Tehran. behdad On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: Many other things may also be optional (like how to write ordibehesht, zi-hajje, or hejdah), but we are only allowing one, There is no comparison between these and the personal name topic. You are giving incomplete and wrong information. And you have every right to do so too so don't let me stop you. However, now that I've pointed it out, I know that even though I'm not going to say another word on this topic, you'll fix it. How do I know? I've come to know your ways very well after so many years. You'll see. all the time. Sorry! Then you need to define all the time. I don't see a Kasra in the author's name on this book that is sitting on my desk. Well, all the time does not, in fact, mean all the time in English. It just means all the time. You know, a synonym for sometimes! Why do you have to always be so hard on the poor molla from Qazvin? -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
